Why can't people be liked for who they are

[JuneL]

Wants and needs are very different. Sure I'd want everything, am I likely to get it. Not so much. Time and time again the two never match up. What I dont want us easy to get and what I do want is impossible to get.

 

I don't see many people putting in much effort, if you are charming make people laugh well you are set. Seemingly

 

The reason I asked was that, from your many posts, you don’t come across as a guy with sexual desires.

[GemmaUK]

I think it's also not realistic to have to wait 3 dates to be impressed. Frankly all those I have liked I liked when I first met them so it's definitely possible.

 

I'd argue it is very rateable. If I am interested it's a success, if not it isn't. If there is some synergy it's a success,. If not it isn't.

 

Not sure what sort of effort you expect me to make, I try talk to people, I try eye contact with random people, I even try to smile.

Tinder, sure it's not ideal but better than nothing. Fyi I haven't had any dates since the last disaster nor is there currently anyone of interest.

 

If I worked for, with or alongside you what would you think if I said I 'try' to do 'xyz' (which was something needed and required in that role/task on a regular basis)?

[ZA Dater]

If I worked for, with or alongside you what would you think if I said I 'try' to do 'xyz' (which was something needed and required in that role/task on a regular basis)?

 

I'd hope to see some results or steps toward getting better results.

[GemmaUK]

I'd hope to see some results or steps toward getting better results.

 

As a man who runs six businesses I would think after 2 years of me, your employee saying 'I try to do the payroll' that you would have demoted or sacked me by now.

[ZA Dater]

As a man who runs six businesses I would think after 2 years of me, your employee saying 'I try to do the payroll' that you would have demoted or sacked me by now.

 

 

 

Well I thought the mantra of encouragement and positivity would work in dating as it does in business, I have been proven wrong on that one. When people work its amazing how you can train them up with positive encouragement and simply believing they can improve.

 

 

Far more is achieved by building people up but I guess when I go and sit down with someone I tend to look at the whole thing as business, it either works for me, I see potential or I simply don't like the idea at all. I accept everyone is different but perhaps I should have given up on my idea of dating anyone hoping that they might prove to be attractive. The harsh reality is, you can choose not to judge but will be judged irrespective.

 

 

All is not lost, I have another one of my infamous "friend" dinner dates next week, which should be quite nice. Apparently she is rather fond of me, as a friend I presume because she has a bf, well no surprise there then. You are right, I wished I had stopped the pointless dates years ago, I only did them in the hope I could actually learn something but all I really learnt is you are either liked or you aren't. Life is also better if you don't care either way.

 

 

I get more value from these friend dinners than I get from meeting random people off tinder, at least most of the boxes do get ticked, even though of the time I wish she was coming home with me.

[GemmaUK]

Well I thought the mantra of encouragement and positivity would work in dating as it does in business, I have been proven wrong on that one. When people work its amazing how you can train them up with positive encouragement and simply believing they can improve.

I was attempting to do quick questions so result in quick responses there - but.

 

What I am getting at is you say that expressionless is your favourite expression and it's been at least a year and a half since I told you how important genuine smiles are yet you still, after all this time say 'I do 'try' to smile'.

 

You also say you are really honest - so I think you do 'try' on occasion.

 

Smiling is crucial in dating and relationships.

Just like getting payroll right is crucial if you run businesses. It's not the type of thing you wait to get right over a year and a half or more because someone is 'trying' each payroll.

There are times in life and business when 'trying' doesn't cut it.

[Imajerk17]

ZA, when you are out on a date w a girl, what questions do you ask her? I get that it is different from one date to the next, but how in general does your conversation w her go.

 

And how do you let her know that you like her and find her physically attractive--those times that you do.

[Imajerk17]

I was attempting to do quick questions so result in quick responses there - but.

 

What I am getting at is you say that expressionless is your favourite expression and it's been at least a year and a half since I told you how important genuine smiles are yet you still, after all this time say 'I do 'try' to smile'.

 

You also say you are really honest - so I think you do 'try' on occasion.

 

Smiling is crucial in dating and relationships.

Just like getting payroll right is crucial if you run businesses. It's not the type of thing you wait to get right over a year and a half or more because someone is 'trying' each payroll.

There are times in life and business when 'trying' doesn't cut it.

 

GammaUK you always give great advice but I do feel the need to play Devil's Advocate here.

 

See I actually don't think that a struggling guy needs to learn to smile. I mean, sure, it is hard to be a good date if you aren't at least pleasant company here. There are plenty of smiley males out there though, who just cannot get out of the friend-zone--or who struggle even to get a woman to be their friend. And there are dark cynical men who do pretty well when it comes to attraction. Smiling too much/at the wrong time can actually come across as appeasement/low-status/nervousness.

 

He may need to learn to relax/present a less-intense/calmer energy to his dates--if he comes across stressed it will be hard for her to feel comfort and attraction. But this is just a guess though haven't never spent time w OP in person.

 

I think ZA really needs to work on emotional connection but this is in line w projecting a more masculine vibe--appropriately taking the conversation in a more emotional direction, being able to read the signs that she could be interested, being comfortable initiating physical contact ect. At least this is the impression I am getting "reading" him, it is hard to know without actually seeing him in person.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Imajerk17

[ZA Dater]

I was attempting to do quick questions so result in quick responses there - but.

 

What I am getting at is you say that expressionless is your favourite expression and it's been at least a year and a half since I told you how important genuine smiles are yet you still, after all this time say 'I do 'try' to smile'.

 

You also say you are really honest - so I think you do 'try' on occasion.

 

Smiling is crucial in dating and relationships.

Just like getting payroll right is crucial if you run businesses. It's not the type of thing you wait to get right over a year and a half or more because someone is 'trying' each payroll.

There are times in life and business when 'trying' doesn't cut it.

 

It really depends how comfortable I feel with the person and how connected I feel to the person and the conversation. It's hard to explain some people have sort of magnetic attraction and others just don't for me.

 

I try present as more relaxed with probably little success.

[Adiron]

I try present as more relaxed with ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶a̶b̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶i̶t̶t̶l̶e̶ no success.

 

 

Fixed that for ya.

[ZA Dater]

ZA, when you are out on a date w a girl, what questions do you ask her? I get that it is different from one date to the next, but how in general does your conversation w her go.

 

And how do you let her know that you like her and find her physically attractive--those times that you do.

 

Very tough questions to answer!

 

I usually ask her about herself, find out what interests her and run conversation off that. At least to try get conversation to flow about something she is at ease talking about. With the right person this works well, hours of conversation but it rarely works out like that.

 

To be honest I have only likes perhaps a handful ever so its impossible to say, I am very poor at that. I just give them lots of attention I suppose, I don't generally step out too far because I never get the sense they liked me as much as I liked them.

[GemmaUK]

GammaUK you always give great advice but I do feel the need to play Devil's Advocate here.

 

See I actually don't think that a struggling guy needs to learn to smile. I mean, sure, it is hard to be a good date if you aren't at least pleasant company here. There are plenty of smiley males out there though, who just cannot get out of the friend-zone--or who struggle even to get a woman to be their friend. And there are dark cynical men who do pretty well when it comes to attraction. Smiling too much/at the wrong time can actually come across as appeasement/low-status/nervousness.

 

He may need to learn to relax/present a less-intense/calmer energy to his dates--if he comes across stressed it will be hard for her to feel comfort and attraction. But this is just a guess though haven't never spent time w OP in person.

 

I think ZA really needs to work on emotional connection but this is in line w projecting a more masculine vibe--appropriately taking the conversation in a more emotional direction, being able to read the signs that she could be interested, being comfortable initiating physical contact ect. At least this is the impression I am getting "reading" him, it is hard to know without actually seeing him in person.

 

See, I do agree to some extent IMAJ with the'not being too smiley but OP has been called c'old'

Smiling like a lunatic (too much) is not adviseable but a softened face with a genuine smile is a lovely thing to see.

 

Where I am on a deeper level coming from is actually down to the word 'try' or 'tried'.

 

We had an example of a date OP chose to ask out, from Tinder a woman into 420 (weed).

This is a deal breaker for him so for me., logically speaking this is like me (an accountant) attempting to be an architect.

He calls these Tinder dates 'commercial dates'. In other words he has a title for a date with a woman he already knows he will have no interest in.

This, before anything puts that women into the bracket of 'I can allow myself not to really even put anything much into practicing dating etiquette and just see if she likes me.

'I don't really have anything to achieve here on this date so I will only try this and that briefly and can revert to expressionless me'

 

But then there is the woman he does get on well with and adores who he is friends with but she is in a relationship.

We all know that attempting to date whilst another is on your mind is nigh on impossible. One way to help is to 'get under someone to get over someone else' This may or may not help ZA but he won't be heading to get under someone if he goes on commercial dates where he is fundamentally not interested before they even meet.

 

It's as if he chooses to go on a date with someone who is not for him to prove his notions correct - therefore it's rateable - and consistent.

But also it means he doesn't have to put in much effort/charm because he doesn't want to date them anyway.

 

It's a shame as I do think that ZA is - yeah a bit stubborn but likely a good, decent guy.

I would love to see him flourish. I wouldn't have responded to his threads for so long if I didn't believe the capacity to do so wasn't there.

[Imajerk17]

I agree w you GammaK, going on "commercial dates" (never heard this term before) with women ZA isn't interested in, is a bad idea all around.

 

It is wasting the other person's time for one thing. I get that it is a hazy line between this and 'being open-minded' or whatever. but ZA if you already are pretty sure that you and she aren't a match, then save her the time and energy of coming out. Save your energies for people you'd be more compatible with!

 

Even besides that, it doesn't seem to be helping anything. You (ZA) both walk away from the date feeling it was a wasted evening and you are the one who feels resigned about it.

 

That said yes getting over K by getting under another might be just the thing for ZA. But he'd do himself better to screen more effectively.

[ZA Dater]

I agree w you GammaK, going on "commercial dates" (never heard this term before) with women ZA isn't interested in, is a bad idea all around.

 

It is wasting the other person's time for one thing. I get that it is a hazy line between this and 'being open-minded' or whatever. but ZA if you already are pretty sure that you and she aren't a match, then save her the time and energy of coming out. Save your energies for people you'd be more compatible with!

 

Even besides that, it doesn't seem to be helping anything. You (ZA) both walk away from the date feeling it was a wasted evening and you are the one who feels resigned about it.

 

That said yes getting over K by getting under another might be just the thing for ZA. But he'd do himself better to screen more effectively.

 

 

 

I cant disagree with much of this. On the one hand one is told its a "numbers game" so get numbers but on the other hand now one must not get numbers and be discerning. Which is it?

 

 

If I did the latter I would be 34 and probably dateless because really the number of people from OLD I actually wanted to go on a date with is exceedingly few. Yes, some had potential but that potential vanished within 5 minutes. Like I do I thought I would actually try meet people who wanted to meet to see if perhaps there was something intangibly attractive about them.

 

 

For the most part people I know have been able to date people they wanted to date, me, I have never really had that luxury, its been about trying to like what I really don't like but there aren't any other real options. Which is what all these dates were, trying to like what I don't really like because I simply don't have any better choices.

[ZA Dater]

See, I do agree to some extent IMAJ with the'not being too smiley but OP has been called c'old'

Smiling like a lunatic (too much) is not adviseable but a softened face with a genuine smile is a lovely thing to see.

 

Where I am on a deeper level coming from is actually down to the word 'try' or 'tried'.

 

We had an example of a date OP chose to ask out, from Tinder a woman into 420 (weed).

This is a deal breaker for him so for me., logically speaking this is like me (an accountant) attempting to be an architect.

He calls these Tinder dates 'commercial dates'. In other words he has a title for a date with a woman he already knows he will have no interest in.

This, before anything puts that women into the bracket of 'I can allow myself not to really even put anything much into practicing dating etiquette and just see if she likes me.

'I don't really have anything to achieve here on this date so I will only try this and that briefly and can revert to expressionless me'

 

But then there is the woman he does get on well with and adores who he is friends with but she is in a relationship.

We all know that attempting to date whilst another is on your mind is nigh on impossible. One way to help is to 'get under someone to get over someone else' This may or may not help ZA but he won't be heading to get under someone if he goes on commercial dates where he is fundamentally not interested before they even meet.

It's as if he chooses to go on a date with someone who is not for him to prove his notions correct - therefore it's rateable - and consistent.

But also it means he doesn't have to put in much effort/charm because he doesn't want to date them anyway.

It's a shame as I do think that ZA is - yeah a bit stubborn but likely a good, decent guy.

I would love to see him flourish. I wouldn't have responded to his threads for so long if I didn't believe the capacity to do so wasn't there.

 

 

Here is the thing I am largely at the point where yes 420 is a deal breaker but if the person had other decent qualities then perhaps it wouldn't be....yes it would still be but from the point of view of dating practice who really cares, 420 isn't really relevant.

 

 

 

 

The problem is the "get under someone" would need to have a personality I really liked and I would need to connect with them in that way and mostly I don't connect with people in this way ever so she could be a model and I wouldn't be interested and yes I do regret not going out with the one model but logically it would not have worked anyway. How I work is a look at how compatible I would be with someone. I weigh up everything and then decide how realistic a prospect the person is. Remember to I never get much attention so when I get myself into a situation where I am giving and getting attention it is very nice which is where I am with K. That scenario is 50% of what I want whereas most of these dates are 0% of what I want because its me trying to make myself fit in, whereas with K I can simply be the best version of me rather than trying to be the best version of something else.

 

 

You are right I don't put in much effort when I don't see much in the way of compatibility.

[ZA Dater]

When people say dating is a numbers game, they don't mean that you should just date any old person and hope for the best. You should date people that seem like a good match at first, and then see if they are compatible. Since not all people who seem like a good match at first will ultimately be a good partner for you, it comes down to the numbers game. I don't personally put much stock in this particular method, but it does have merit.

 

Think of it like a job hunt, which can also be a numbers game. If you are looking for a job as a doctor, you won't apply at a bunch of fast food places and then lament your failure to secure a nice career. You will likely apply for positions at your local hospitals since they are on the surface a better fit for you.

 

What makes your situation different from the people you know is that you take ladies out on what they think is a date, but then you pull the bait and switch. You aren't actually taking women on dates, you are taking them out for coffee and expecting a deep, intellectual conversation about topics that appeal to you. The ladies expect a date, you expect your conversation, neither gets what they want, and you both walk away disappointed. Unless you are willing to make some changes to your methods, which judging by your posting activity here, this will not happen, you can expect this cycle to continue pretty much indefinitely.

 

 

I simply expect them to actually have a conversation about anything, I don't care what, have some opinions. Last year I went on a monumentally bad dinner date, probably one of the very worst I have been on from a conversational point of view. I asked about her, asked about her and at NO TIME did she ask about me for all of two hours.

 

 

The absolute truth is I date based on how I think a date should go, perhaps I should print a manual to take with me next time.

 

 

You are right though, I am not matching like with like. K is like which is why it works.

[Chilli]

So you only go out with the few then.

the rest are just a waste of everyone's time anyway.

 

lf l was doing the bs dating thing , which l never have in my life, l'd be lucky to find 2 women a year l'd wanna date, can't even say that word even the word itself just sounds like a waste of time to me , l dunno.

 

Personally too l think that numbers game thing is ridiculous. it's not a game and wth are numbers, why , what numbers, what effg use are numbers.

You use picker not numbers.

That's like buying 100 cars instead of just finding one you like, l mean wtf.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Chilli

[Chilli]

Actually l tell a lie.

l did go on one date once took this gorgeous greek chic out, l was only 18.

We had indian and half way through dinner l had to race through about 100 people to the jon , to throw up.

That went well, :bunny: , damn spicey onion .

Anyway no dramas we laughed about it for mths after. Unfortunately things fizzled down the track, Great girl though.

Ha , my one and only date and l threw up.

[basil67]

I simply expect them to actually have a conversation about anything, I don't care what, have some opinions. Last year I went on a monumentally bad dinner date, probably one of the very worst I have been on from a conversational point of view. I asked about her, asked about her and at NO TIME did she ask about me for all of two hours.

 

Don't expect too much of people you meet online. I mean, if they had great conversational skills, they wouldn't need online dating as a tool.

[ZA Dater]

Don't expect too much of people you meet online. I mean, if they had great conversational skills, they wouldn't need online dating as a tool.

 

 

 

I had another thought along those lines but yes perhaps true.

 

 

Online is the only really viable way for me because everywhere else I just get instantly dismissed.

 

 

That's the thing I often marvel at, how confident and charming some people are. Both of these things break ice easily, equally if you don't have them its very hard to pretend to have them.

 

 

Someone asked why I make my dates business like because that's how I am in general probably this is another of the long list of issues.

 

 

The irony about everything is even if someone was interested I wouldn't know because I wouldn't know what to look for.

[Chilli]

Although admittedly , we do things differently here but if that's the way they do things there then maybe that's what works there so, l better go back to my corner :bunny:

Edited July 11, 2018 by Chilli

[JuneL]

You run a car club, no? Why don’t you start a meetup group or a club devoted to intellectual conversations with a unique topic of your choice each week? Or you can run a book club to discuss topics that excite you. Be creative

[Adiron]

We had indian and half way through dinner l had to race through about 100 people to the jon , to throw up.

 

 

Happened to me once, back in my college days. Took a new girlfriend out with a bunch of college buddies She didn't want to go, it wasn't her scene but I convinced her it would be fun. We played a drinking game called "quarters" where you try to flip a coin into a glass and if you succeed you point to someone (never using your finger- if you use your finger you have to drink a beer) and whoever you point to with your elbow has to drink. They all picked on me since I was the only one with a girl. I got really drunk really fast and my body gave up. It was like an out of body experience, as if I was on the ceiling looking down as my mouth opened wide and I spewed vomity beer all over the table. You never saw a group of people push their chairs back so fast! I staggered out of there.. she met me in the parking lot and took me home. I kept my head out the window...

[GemmaUK]

The irony about everything is even if someone was interested I wouldn't know because I wouldn't know what to look for.

 

Ssee, for me we are back to where we began again over two years ago.

If the above is true (as it was for me - being shy, awkward and not connecting, being able to connect or read others) then reading up and practicing use of boday language and facial expressions helped - to an amazing degree.

 

I spent the time though - the actual time, read a LOT of books, 30 years later I am still learning and growing and it's amazing and it changes so many interactions I have each day!!

You did pick up a book but in your words it was dating centric and no book I had suggested plus you only read half of it.

Here. a few months later you expected half a book to have turned your life around.

You need to be me more realistic about things.

 

Enigma is right in that you need to change (or learn or grow or something) or your history will be your future.

[ZA Dater]

Ssee, for me we are back to where we began again over two years ago.

If the above is true (as it was for me - being shy, awkward and not connecting, being able to connect or read others) then reading up and practicing use of boday language and facial expressions helped - to an amazing degree.

 

I spent the time though - the actual time, read a LOT of books, 30 years later I am still learning and growing and it's amazing and it changes so many interactions I have each day!!

You did pick up a book but in your words it was dating centric and no book I had suggested plus you only read half of it.

Here. a few months later you expected half a book to have turned your life around.

You need to be me more realistic about things.

 

Enigma is right in that you need to change (or learn or grow or something) or your history will be your future.

 

 

 

I actually did finish it! Sure it has merit but if you aren't meeting decent people to begin with then that merit is pretty difficult to actually put into practice in a dating context.

 

 

Yeah, I cant unfortunately wipe out the history and its impossible to explain away because apparently this history is super important to most people, I also refuse on principle to pretend it doesn't exist either. One thing that causes me to totally loose interest in any person is this phrase "when was your last relationship and how long was it", the person might as well be scraping a chalk board.

 

 

Bottom line is I try but its harder and harder to find anyone who remotely interests me, everyone is seemingly taken and what is left I don't want (and they don't want me).