Why can't people be liked for who they are

[ZA Dater]

1. That you don't find 99.9% of your dates attractive, I believe that is on you OP. Most other people can at least have an enjoyable evening with a good percentage of their dates even if they don't see a future with them. That you are not drawing your dates out so you don't see anything interesting about them, is sadly, what actually is likely happening.

 

2. Left unanswered is, given your standards, the question of what you found about H worthy of a second date. If I had such an unpleasant first date with someone [see 1. above] then I sure as hell would NOT want a second date! [Already discussed in the last post #408 was why H vanished on you.]

 

3. Still left unanswered (again) is why you don't screen your dates out better, given what you wrote above.

 

4. Yet another question left unanswered (again) is how you plan on changing your approach.

 

 

 

I am not trying to be mean OP, I AM trying to get you to realize that you are your own worst enemy. And if you take responsibility, you can change your results.

 

 

To answer the questions.

 

 

Why would I want to spend time with someone I don't find attractive or interesting?

 

 

H, was interesting and attractive. Not the usual no ambition type of person I usually end up meeting. If she vanished for that then so be it but if that is the case I think it was unfairly judged but that's irrelevant.

 

 

As for screening, if I did I wouldn't have any dates at all. The point here is people are forever telling me to compromise but when I do I am asked why I don't screen dates? You must be very fortunate to be able to pick and choose, unfortunately I don't have that luxury.

 

 

As for changing my approach, if I had my way I'd bin the entire "project" and start again, unfortunately that isn't possible so I either keep trudging on with pretty limited chances of success or I move on and forget the entire idea. In other words just admit defeat. I have spent hours thinking about this and I cannot find any viable solution, no matter what I do the deal killers will always remain the same. Seemingly.

 

 

You have helped me with one thing though, identifying the fact I don't connect with people and a large part of that is the fact I am just so odd! Which again is why I seek out people who don't do the club/church thing because my odds are better with those but that market is tiny.

 

 

When you say change I could try and compete more but again that's of little value when what I bring isn't what is wanted.

[normal person]

Maybe I must just do what every other guy does, trick, manipulate, lie, and spin a whole load of BS. Except I wont do any of those things.

 

 

Seeing as I cannot even meet anyone I like I guess that's a problem.

 

More of this nonsense? Another red herring. You saying you think the only way a man can be with a women is through trickery is a very convenient "white knight" explanation for your situation: (you think) you're just too upstanding to ever do anything deceptive, which is unfortunately the only way to ever get success with women (in your worldview).

 

However, the world isn't black and white and you've been smart enough to know this since you were a teenager. Plenty of men, including family members of yours I'm sure, met their partners and developed relationships through perfectly moral and honest means. Are there bad men who lie and manipulate? Sure, but they are in the overwhelming minority, they are usually exposed relatively quickly, and the assumption otherwise that you make is just a distraction (and a lie) from the actual truth: you don't want to change.

 

Here you are claiming you're not a liar, or manipulative, and in the previous sentence claiming that you think the only way men get with women is through illicit means, which you know is not the truth.

 

You're manipulating this discussion and intentionally omitting the acknowledgement and practice of the large majority of men who do things the right way to suit your own argument, make yourself look like a more endearing character, and make it look like your situation is a result of your pristine morality and not your fear or unwillingness to change. Underneath all this the more likely culprit: you know women's affections aren't doled out solely on the basis of morality, but many different things that you don't want to acknowledge as it would be an admission of failure on your part. The issue isn't that you're too moral to compete with the small amount of immoral men, it's that you're too scared or unwilling to compete with the large amount of moral ones.

 

You're trying to frame this scenario in a way that makes it seem like your situation is a result of anything but your inability to try, learn, and adapt (which is likely the biggest reason it is what it is), you know this, and you're trying to make us all think otherwise.

 

I believe you aren't a misogynist, but your deliberate attempts to misrepresent things like this means there's no way you're as honest as you say you are. Either you're a liar, or you have a grossly un-researched, unrefined, un-nuanced view of human interactions for someone your age.

Edited July 16, 2018 by normal person

[GemmaUK]

More of this nonsense? Another red herring. You saying you think the only way a man can be with a women is through trickery is a very convenient "white knight" explanation for your situation: (you think) you're just too upstanding to ever do anything deceptive, which is unfortunately the only way to ever get success with women (in your worldview).

 

However, the world isn't black and white and you've been smart enough to know this since you were a teenager. Plenty of men, including family members of yours I'm sure, met their partners and developed relationships through perfectly moral and honest means. Are there bad men who lie and manipulate? Sure, but they are in the overwhelming minority, they are usually exposed relatively quickly, and the assumption otherwise that you make is just a distraction (and a lie) from the actual truth: you don't want to change.

 

Here you are claiming you're not a liar, or manipulative, and in the previous sentence claiming that you think the only way men get with women is through illicit means, which you know is not the truth.

 

You're manipulating this discussion and intentionally omitting the acknowledgement and practice of the large majority of men who do things the right way to suit your own argument, make yourself look like a more endearing character, and make it look like your situation is a result of your pristine morality and not your fear or unwillingness to change. Underneath all this the more likely culprit: you know women's affections aren't doled out solely on the basis of morality, but many different things that you don't want to acknowledge as it would be an admission of failure on your part. The issue isn't that you're too moral to compete with the small amount of immoral men, it's that you're too scared or unwilling to compete with the large amount of moral ones.

 

You're trying to frame this scenario in a way that makes it seem like your situation is a result of anything but your inability to try, learn, and adapt (which is likely the biggest reason it is what it is), you know this, and you're trying to make us all think otherwise.

 

I believe you aren't a misogynist, but your deliberate attempts to misrepresent things like this means there's no way you're as honest as you say you are. Either you're a liar, or you have a grossly un-researched, unrefined, un-nuanced view of human interactions for someone your age.

 

I agree on the morals bit, except for his admission a few posts back where he said he only 'goes for or tries his luck with' (can't remember the exact wording) women already in relationships.

[ZA Dater]

More of this nonsense? Another red herring. You saying you think the only way a man can be with a women is through trickery is a very convenient "white knight" explanation for your situation: (you think) you're just too upstanding to ever do anything deceptive, which is unfortunately the only way to ever get success with women (in your worldview).

 

However, the world isn't black and white and you've been smart enough to know this since you were a teenager. Plenty of men, including family members of yours I'm sure, met their partners and developed relationships through perfectly moral and honest means. Are there bad men who lie and manipulate? Sure, but they are in the overwhelming minority, they are usually exposed relatively quickly, and the assumption otherwise that you make is just a distraction (and a lie) from the actual truth: you don't want to change.

 

Here you are claiming you're not a liar, or manipulative, and in the previous sentence claiming that you think the only way men get with women is through illicit means, which you know is not the truth.

 

You're manipulating this discussion and intentionally omitting the acknowledgement and practice of the large majority of men who do things the right way to suit your own argument, make yourself look like a more endearing character, and make it look like your situation is a result of your pristine morality and not your fear or unwillingness to change. Underneath all this the more likely culprit: you know women's affections aren't doled out solely on the basis of morality, but many different things that you don't want to acknowledge as it would be an admission of failure on your part. The issue isn't that you're too moral to compete with the small amount of immoral men, it's that you're too scared or unwilling to compete with the large amount of moral ones.

 

You're trying to frame this scenario in a way that makes it seem like your situation is a result of anything but your inability to try, learn, and adapt (which is likely the biggest reason it is what it is), you know this, and you're trying to make us all think otherwise.

 

I believe you aren't a misogynist, but your deliberate attempts to misrepresent things like this means there's no way you're as honest as you say you are. Either you're a liar, or you have a grossly un-researched, unrefined, un-nuanced view of human interactions for someone your age.

 

 

 

You know what, you aren't in my shoes so don't pretend you and I see things the same way because we don't. Your point of reference is different to mine I and don't question it, likewise you cannot really question mine. The fact is I have sat in bars and yes all I see are subtle and not so subtle art of manipulation, manipulating to get what you want.

 

 

How do I know this, amazing I too have ladies I speak to and they convey exactly this so my opinion is not without some base. Do guys do moral things to get dates, I never said they didn't, I have just never seen it. What I have heard are almost endless complaints of "he only wants one thing". Our friend above will then say that's due to screening and I would agree.

 

 

And no I don't manipulate people to get dates, do I chase non single people sure, why not. All of people you keep crowing on about competition and the need to present better. Just about the only motivating thing relating to dating is the chase to compete, heck I might not win but at least I am chasing what I actually want rather than settling for your "numbers game" mired in "that will do" methodology.

 

 

I can carry some confidence, I can try some humour but I am not going to bother with people who don't interest me, that's one thing I have learnt here, its a total waste of time. If I land up with no dates and chasing ghosts then so be it.

 

 

You know what if I had a gf and treated her badly with indifference then I would not be surprised if a better alternative presented itself and she dumped me. Would you not agree with this?

 

 

The one thing universally true is few people have any degree of appreciation for anything. Just this past weekend I saw an old work colleague I tried to date, and actually did go on one date with, she has been with a guy for 5 years, 4 of which has been long distance, she moves to where he is, he moves away and so it goes, she simply cannot see what is in front her eyes...and no I am not interested in dating her so I have zero self interest.

 

 

You always advocated I go out and learn from people who are good at it, now you tell me that not everyone manipulates, well that's all I saw and with that I saw some success too.

 

 

Nice guys, the topic has been covered to death but its true they don't get anywhere or next to never get what they want. I am prepared to explore the grey area within reason if I see a significant upside.

[Imajerk17]

ZA, you are successful in your career it sounds like. Did you "lie and cheat" to get where you are?

 

[This is a rhetorical question I am sure the answer is no. You instead I am guessing had to figure out what your bosses/clients/customers wanted and deliver to them--whether or not their expectations were explicitly spelled out or made sense to you.]

[ZA Dater]

I agree on the morals bit, except for his admission a few posts back where he said he only 'goes for or tries his luck with' (can't remember the exact wording) women already in relationships.

 

 

 

So its my fault I cant find anyone single? I don't know one single person, not one.

 

 

I have never won at dating so chasing and loosing doesn't really bother me, besides simply being draining.

 

 

If someone is so insecure they think a 34yo guy with no dating experience can win over their GF then perhaps its them who should not have a GF to begin with.

 

 

Oh and that inexperience might as well be written on my face in block letters.

[ZA Dater]

ZA, you are successful in your career it sounds like. Did you "lie and cheat" to get where you are?

 

[This is a rhetorical question I am sure the answer is no. You instead I am guessing had to figure out what your bosses/clients/customers wanted and deliver to them--whether or not their expectations were explicitly spelled out or made sense to you.]

 

 

I got where I am through never giving up and getting kicked in the teeth a few times and networking. I refuse to lie and cheat at anything. What I will do is present what I feel is a better alternative, if they think so great, if not then so be it.

 

 

Your question "what would you change" I wish I had different selling technique, I wish people actually put some premium on what I am good at. The irony is the stuff I am good at does endear me to these non single people, in many instances because their own partners don't provide it. Like the co worker who lavished me attention when I did the same, for 4 years we did this dance, she wasn't ever single but who was it she confided in, yip me.

 

 

People find me easy enough to talk to. I just don't work in the sense of any sort of romantic connection and when I try go there it just becomes a total disaster.

[JuneL]

I got where I am through never giving up and getting kicked in the teeth a few times and networking. I refuse to lie and cheat at anything. What I will do is present what I feel is a better alternative, if they think so great, if not then so be it.

 

 

Your question "what would you change" I wish I had different selling technique, I wish people actually put some premium on what I am good at. The irony is the stuff I am good at does endear me to these non single people, in many instances because their own partners don't provide it. Like the co worker who lavished me attention when I did the same, for 4 years we did this dance, she wasn't ever single but who was it she confided in, yip me.

 

 

People find me easy enough to talk to. I just don't work in the sense of any sort of romantic connection and when I try go there it just becomes a total disaster.

 

So you’d rather be your crush’s gay good friend than meet women who might have romantic interest?

 

There’re things we’d rather share with our female close friends or gay best friends than with our boyfriend, simply because we’re not attracted to them romantically.

Edited July 16, 2018 by JuneL

[ZA Dater]

So you’d rather be your crush’s gay good friend than meet women who might have romantic interest?

 

There’re things we’d rather share with our female close friends or gay best friends than with our boyfriend, simply because we’re not attracted to them romantically.

 

 

Seems like a decent compromise to me. Just I am not gay.

 

 

If you cant get what you want then 50% of what you want is better than 100% of what you don't.

 

 

Seeing every rare time I meet someone I do like I seem to either not be what they want or I mess it up spectacularly.

 

 

At least I know I am capable of being a decent friend. If nothing else.

[normal person]

You know what, you aren't in my shoes so don't pretend you and I see things the same way because we don't. Your point of reference is different to mine I and don't question it, likewise you cannot really question mine.

 

I quoted what you said.

 

The fact is I have sat in bars and yes all I see are subtle and not so subtle art of manipulation, manipulating to get what you want.

 

"All [you] see is manipulation" and "every" time you go out with a woman, she has nothing interesting to say. That hasn't been my experience and I don't think that's been the experience of anyone in this thread, or anyone I know, or anyone else I've ever heard of. This seems to be a problem totally unique to you, so perhaps the problem is the way you as an individual view and selectively ignore things.

 

Do guys do moral things to get dates, I never said they didn't, I have just never seen it.

 

You admittedly, don't go out to the places where this usually happens very often. How did your parents get together? How did about your aunts/uncles? Siblings? Friends? Would the men say they manipulated the women? Would the women think they were manipulated? You're just being absurd at this point.

 

What I have heard are almost endless complaints of "he only wants one thing". Our friend above will then say that's due to screening and I would agree.

 

Stop trying to prove a moot point and pay attention to the countless examples of relationships that totally disprove it. Just because you didn't witness the genesis of them with your own eyes doesn't mean they didn't happen without deceit, and you know it.

 

And no I don't manipulate people to get dates, do I chase non single people sure, why not.

 

I didn't say you manipulate people to get dates, I'm saying you're trying to manipulate this argument to frame it in a way that's most advantageous to you rather than looking at it more objectively, which you won't.

 

All of people you keep crowing on about competition and the need to present better. Just about the only motivating thing relating to dating is the chase to compete, heck I might not win but at least I am chasing what I actually want rather than settling for your "numbers game" mired in "that will do" methodology.

 

I have never used the term "numbers game" or suggested settling.

 

I can carry some confidence, I can try some humour but I am not going to bother with people who don't interest me, that's one thing I have learnt here, its a total waste of time. If I land up with no dates and chasing ghosts then so be it.

 

I agree with you here.

 

You know what if I had a gf and treated her badly with indifference then I would not be surprised if a better alternative presented itself and she dumped me. Would you not agree with this?

 

I would agree. What of it?

 

You always advocated I go out and learn from people who are good at it, now you tell me that not everyone manipulates, well that's all I saw and with that I saw some success too.

 

Look closer. What do you define as manipulation? What's the most innocuous action that you consider manipulation? Is dressing nice considered manipulation because the individual isn't dressing as they normally would? Is trying to find the most slimming clothing manipulation? Is women wearing makeup or doing their hair, or people trying to put their best foot forward a form of manipulation?

 

Nice guys, the topic has been covered to death but its true they don't get anywhere or next to never get what they want. I am prepared to explore the grey area within reason if I see a significant upside.

 

Ugh, again you refuse to see things in any other way other "nice guys" and "not nice guys." Maybe there's more to attraction than just how nice you are.

[Blanco]

Ugh, again you refuse to see things in any other way other "nice guys" and "not nice guys." Maybe there's more to attraction than just how nice you are.

 

Because "nice" is a good trait, but it's not this shining beacon of light that some people think it is.

 

It took me some years to determine, but a lot more made sense when I realized I'm not necessarily a "nice" guy, but I am a good guy. There IS a difference.

[basil67]

Because "nice" is a good trait, but it's not this shining beacon of light that some people think it is.

 

It took me some years to determine, but a lot more made sense when I realized I'm not necessarily a "nice" guy, but I am a good guy. There IS a difference.

 

When I say that a guy is "a really nice guy", it truly is a compliment and a tick in his favour. Thing is though, guys who describe themselves as nice aren't always what I would call nice. Sometimes I might that person as boring. Or doormat, or lacking in social skills. My definition of nice is what you mean when you say good.

 

So I've learned to use the word good to avoid getting into the whole 'nice guy' argument.

[Imajerk17]

To answer the questions.

 

 

Why would I want to spend time with someone I don't find attractive or interesting?

 

 

H, was interesting and attractive. Not the usual no ambition type of person I usually end up meeting. If she vanished for that then so be it but if that is the case I think it was unfairly judged but that's irrelevant.

 

 

As for screening, if I did I wouldn't have any dates at all. The point here is people are forever telling me to compromise but when I do I am asked why I don't screen dates? You must be very fortunate to be able to pick and choose, unfortunately I don't have that luxury.

 

 

As for changing my approach, if I had my way I'd bin the entire "project" and start again, unfortunately that isn't possible so I either keep trudging on with pretty limited chances of success or I move on and forget the entire idea. In other words just admit defeat. I have spent hours thinking about this and I cannot find any viable solution, no matter what I do the deal killers will always remain the same. Seemingly.

 

 

You have helped me with one thing though, identifying the fact I don't connect with people and a large part of that is the fact I am just so odd! Which again is why I seek out people who don't do the club/church thing because my odds are better with those but that market is tiny.

 

 

When you say change I could try and compete more but again that's of little value when what I bring isn't what is wanted.

 

The only thing about you that is 'just so off' is your stubborn insistence on NOT making adjustments in the impression you keep giving off to your dates.

 

I hate to break it to you, but when people meet off Tinder for the first time, they cannot see the depths of the other person's character, all they have to go by is the energy the other person is giving off. If they don't like the energy the other person is giving off then there is no point in pursuing things further. If you are coming across too intense or awkward or rigid then in all likelihood the other person will not be interested.

 

Thing is, while most everyone else gets this (on some level anyway) and makes the adjustments, you seem to be fighting this tooth and nail. You keep saying how unfair this all is--while you also judge your dates quickly and harshly--and how you are just too principled to change. And so you are stuck. It is truly a shame though, as you can fix this (what GammaUK said about body language).

Edited July 17, 2018 by Imajerk17

[ZA Dater]

The only thing about you that is 'just so off' is your stubborn insistence on NOT making adjustments in the impression you keep giving off to your dates.

 

I hate to break it to you, but when people meet off Tinder for the first time, they cannot see the depths of the other person's character, all they have to go by is the energy the other person is giving off. If they don't like the energy the other person is giving off then there is no point in pursuing things further. If you are coming across too intense or awkward or rigid then in all likelihood the other person will not be interested.

Thing is, while most everyone else gets this (on some level anyway) and makes the adjustments, you seem to be fighting this tooth and nail. You keep saying how unfair this all is--while you also judge your dates quickly and harshly--and how you are just too principled to change. And so you are stuck. It is truly a shame though, as you can fix this (what GammaUK said about body language).

 

 

To be quite honest I don't think I can. Irrespective of what fake persona I put on the same deal killers are always there. What motivation do I have to change, not much in truth.

 

 

Nobody I ever like is interested so I am essentially shopping in a shop with empty shelves. I look at what these guys apparently offer and its all the same, there are commonalities across all of them, things I simply do not have and I get judged for not having them.

 

 

Its not unfair, its just the reality I live in.

 

 

I deleted Tinder yesterday and deleted all my OLD profiles.

 

 

I cannot think of any way to sell myself that will actually bring me what I am looking for.

 

 

So I get penalised for being who I am, that's basically what you are saying but I cannot judge the other person for being apathetic? Seems like a double standard to me. At the very beginning when I tried to date, which wasn't in HS, I never found people that interested me, this went on for years and you think I did the same thing each time? I didn't but I went as me, then I started going as someone else, a lovely fake persona, that gave the same pathetic results BUT what you need to understand is I never saw these people as any potential date, perhaps 1 in 10 was.

 

 

What irked me and still does is while I am honest on dates the level of deception and manipulation is staggering, people ask why I believe the whole thing is gross manipulation, because that's all I have observed. "I'll call you later" Later never arrived

 

 

"Lets meet up for pizza" the date never happened. Are you seriously telling me I shouldn't judge those people harshly?

 

 

It really boils down to this. I look at myself as good guy, most people who interact with me would agree with this but the sobering part is good doesn't get you very far with dating, in fact if you are condescending idiot you seem to get a lot further, again my observation.

 

 

I don't think I ever really meet the right sort of people to begin with so any effort I make is usually doomed because of that. Also I guess I radiate that "single forever" persona and yes I don't really flirt or know how to, in that sense I am quite stupid.

 

 

At this point I don't think anything I could do would make any difference at all because the confidence is not there because, well every time its just been a disaster and Gemma does raise a good point, lets say I find someone to date, I integrate so badly into general small talk conversation that socially its not likely to ever work. I believe this has killed off more than one chance. Sure, I can try and I do but people don't generally like having their views challenged, especially if they are ignorant views.

 

 

To be clear I am not abrasive when I challenge people, I merely put forward an alternative point of view.

[ZA Dater]

The only thing about you that is 'just so off' is your stubborn insistence on NOT making adjustments in the impression you keep giving off to your dates.

 

 

 

You tell me what fake impression I should be giving?

 

 

Should I perhaps rather come off as lazy and unambitious, I have seen that works a charm.

 

 

Or perhaps I need to be overly macho, that apparently works well. Or perhaps I need to be brash, or humorous to the point of being silly or perhaps I need to pretend I am something else.

 

 

I have had some great conversations with ladies, all of them not single though.

 

 

You are right the impression I give is probably not to their taste, but seeing as there is no universal like you might as well try target shooting the dark. What always seems to work is humour, well when I have seen other guys employ it.

 

 

Honestly I am just irritated, last week I ended up chatting to a dancer on Tinder, it didn't last long as typically she is looking for "support" but at least she was something different to the norm and wasn't shy about what she did, I can respect that, society would but I don't judge in that way.

[ZA Dater]

I quoted what you said.

 

 

 

"All [you] see is manipulation" and "every" time you go out with a woman, she has nothing interesting to say. That hasn't been my experience and I don't think that's been the experience of anyone in this thread, or anyone I know, or anyone else I've ever heard of. This seems to be a problem totally unique to you, so perhaps the problem is the way you as an individual view and selectively ignore things.

 

 

 

You admittedly, don't go out to the places where this usually happens very often. How did your parents get together? How did about your aunts/uncles? Siblings? Friends? Would the men say they manipulated the women? Would the women think they were manipulated? You're just being absurd at this point.

 

 

 

Stop trying to prove a moot point and pay attention to the countless examples of relationships that totally disprove it. Just because you didn't witness the genesis of them with your own eyes doesn't mean they didn't happen without deceit, and you know it.

 

 

 

I didn't say you manipulate people to get dates, I'm saying you're trying to manipulate this argument to frame it in a way that's most advantageous to you rather than looking at it more objectively, which you won't.

 

 

 

I have never used the term "numbers game" or suggested settling.

 

 

 

I agree with you here.

 

 

 

I would agree. What of it?

 

 

 

Look closer. What do you define as manipulation? What's the most innocuous action that you consider manipulation? Is dressing nice considered manipulation because the individual isn't dressing as they normally would? Is trying to find the most slimming clothing manipulation? Is women wearing makeup or doing their hair, or people trying to put their best foot forward a form of manipulation?

 

 

 

Ugh, again you refuse to see things in any other way other "nice guys" and "not nice guys." Maybe there's more to attraction than just how nice you are.

 

 

Presenting a false persona is the greatest form of deception, putting forward beliefs you know will get you rolling around 3 hours later, passing fake compliments to get to the same result. Those are all examples of manipulation and I have seen all of them practically.

 

 

Answer this, what is so wrong with going on a date to get to know someone? What is so wrong as going as yourself, yes dress nicely to present the best version of you but sitting there and talking garbage, why do that? Why pretend you have a great sense of humour when you don't, why pretend that girl is fantastic meanwhile you have another two you are dating at the same time?

 

 

None of that sits particularly well with me. I get judged for chasing non single people BUT is that not the point of your whole theory?

 

 

I actually have no idea how my parents met, nor my uncles, nor anyone in my family actually. Relationships aren't spoken about.

 

 

My problem is probably the absolute need to be wowed. Everything I do I chase that, for me its one of the best feelings to have. Be it a great sunset, a great walk along the beach.

 

 

I chase that more than anything and I especially chase it with people and singularly its one of the biggest dating problems I have. Describing why one person wows me more than another is impossible but I can tell you once you have been wowed once, its all you want.

[bene]

I see a lot of extremes like “always”, “ever”, “never”, “nobody” in your thought process. These are actually distortions because you just don’t know if nobody will never ever like you and this is how it will be always and forever. Some form of therapy like CBT could address that.

 

All the talk about faking and how everybody must be settling or manipulating their way into relationships is projecting. Again, you just don’t know that. It might be tempting to paint yourself as some kind of outcast who is above everyone and thus misunderstood but the truth is we’re all humans and alike in some ways and weird in other ways. You don’t need “everybody” to like you, just one person with whom you can be different together. But there is simply no other way for meeting this one person than just meeting people.

 

About putting on a fake persona - you could ask what is really the real you and what is the outer shell that has been burned by some bad experiences and frustration. Your threads show that you actually long for connection so maybe this is a real you and all the hoops and conditions that you set up for your dates are fake. People can be very creative in self sabotaging because opening up requires some vulnerability and courage.

[Chilli]

Your not listening or getting it.

l for one give up.

Good luck.

[ZA Dater]

I see a lot of extremes like “always”, “ever”, “never”, “nobody” in your thought process. These are actually distortions because you just don’t know if nobody will never ever like you and this is how it will be always and forever. Some form of therapy like CBT could address that.

 

All the talk about faking and how everybody must be settling or manipulating their way into relationships is projecting. Again, you just don’t know that. It might be tempting to paint yourself as some kind of outcast who is above everyone and thus misunderstood but the truth is we’re all humans and alike in some ways and weird in other ways. You don’t need “everybody” to like you, just one person with whom you can be different together. But there is simply no other way for meeting this one person than just meeting people.

About putting on a fake persona - you could ask what is really the real you and what is the outer shell that has been burned by some bad experiences and frustration. Your threads show that you actually long for connection so maybe this is a real you and all the hoops and conditions that you set up for your dates are fake. People can be very creative in self sabotaging because opening up requires some vulnerability and courage.

 

 

 

Well no relationship ever seems to suggest I have some reasonable evidence to suggest that. It doesn't get easier with age, for me its just becomes impossible to explain things away.

 

 

I never said everybody, I said the people I am exposed to. I left out those who simply settle for whatever they can get.

 

 

Sure one person, do I get to choose or must I simply make do?

 

 

If anything my list is even longer than the list I have typed up here, if I can be rejected so often then I reserve the right to choose. I am not being arrogant but I simply tired of being told '" abc is great, you should date here" yet the person telling me this wouldn't date that person ever.

 

 

Trust me I don't kid myself, nobody likes me enough to date me, they will gladly lap up any attention I can give them but for the dating part I am not even remotely viable. Clearly I am not attractive.

[normal person]

Presenting a false persona is the greatest form of deception, putting forward beliefs you know will get you rolling around 3 hours later, passing fake compliments to get to the same result. Those are all examples of manipulation and I have seen all of them practically.

 

No one disagrees with you that those things are bad. The point is, those are not the most affective, or even common, ways to develop relationships. You're using the marginal cases to justify the majority. Just because it's all you see (apparently) doesn't mean that's all that happens. Most people don't do that sort of thing.

 

Answer this, what is so wrong with going on a date to get to know someone?

 

Nothing.

 

What is so wrong as going as yourself, yes dress nicely to present the best version of you but sitting there and talking garbage, why do that? Why pretend you have a great sense of humour when you don't, why pretend that girl is fantastic meanwhile you have another two you are dating at the same time?

 

I'm not suggesting you do that. You're suggesting that's the only plausible way, and I'm telling you it's not. You just refuse to admit it because it shines a light on your lack of success as a personal failure and not a byproduct of your moral superiority.

 

None of that sits particularly well with me. I get judged for chasing non single people BUT is that not the point of your whole theory?

 

I didn't say anything about that. My point is that you refuse to admit that there are moral, honest ways to meet someone and develop a relationship with someone because you personally have never seen or experienced, or more likely, choose to omit it because it's advantageous to your argument.

 

I actually have no idea how my parents met, nor my uncles, nor anyone in my family actually. Relationships aren't spoken about.

 

How convenient. If you have living family members, why don't you ask them? Why don't you ask your friends? Why don't you ask people here? I'm sure you will hear nothing but stories about how people entered enriching relationships honestly and organically. Do you know why? Because liars are very quickly exposed and good relationships with them don't last. So how about this, why don't you take stock of every person's relationship you can find and see how many of them were a result of deceit? I'll start: I met my current gf through honest means. She appreciates how honest I am.

 

The great news is, if you soon find out that relationships can be made honestly, then you have a whole new world of options to explore, and you won't be hindered by your honesty or morality.

[JuneL]

How did K and your old work colleague meet their boyfriends? I know you have criticized both guys. But since they see you as their friend, you can ask them what traits attracted them to their respective guys. I bet they wouldn’t tell you their boyfriend is a deceptive manipulator, right? Can you just LISTEN to their answers without the interference of your opinionated mind?

[Adiron]

I deleted Tinder yesterday and deleted all my OLD profiles.

 

 

I'm going to miss those biweekly first date summaries.

 

Until you put all the dating profiles back up again and start all over again, in about 2 weeks or so.

[Blanco]

Your not listening or getting it.

l for one give up.

Good luck.

 

You didn't think his threads usually exceed hundreds of posts because of all the productive discussion and exchanging of great ideas, did you?

[William]

Moderation received a report suggesting this thread had run its course and I presented it to the group for their opinion. For now, no action other than to direct members to address the topic and to refrain from commenting on the productivity of the thread or the thread starter personally. Thanks!

[No_Go]

 

The amount of selling out I see among people I know is staggering, people who change their entire life to try and woo people, is this really what one must do? Living something false in the hope someone will like that?

 

 

Joining late here, but I don't think anyone is forced NOT to be themselves or woo people, it is just acceptance that the market value of different people is different and one's market value may not be as high as they want to be (therefore they attempt changing).

 

It's like selling a house - if you don't renovate it, you'd get less money for it regardless of the good location and other perks.

 

If people were were less sensitive to evaluation and were just honest with themselves, their life will just be so much easier. The issue is when a 5 (in beauty, intelligence, whatever) believe they are 8, and try to sell themselves as 10. If they were keeping the 'evaluation' realistic, there is plenty of market for 5s.