Why can't people be liked for who they are

[Mentor99]

Most people are attracted primarily on looks, granted some aren't but I am not going to go down this road. I think how a lady looks can determine what she wants looks wise. I don't bother with anyone I find good looking because they have tons of options.

 

Everybody is different, but most people match up in relationships with people of similar attractiveness levels, and most adults are in a relationship. The only time you might struggle is if you're ONLY attracted to people far above your attractiveness level. But, for most of us, attraction is a fluid concept and dependent on multiple factors, so this won't come into play very often.

 

Yes, we might be able to choose but ladies summarily get to reject.

 

Both men and women get to reject. Maybe not in a cold approach situation, but relationships go on past just the approach at times. The man might reject after the first date. Or after the third date. Or after a couple months. Or right after they have sex. But in a cold approach situation, yes generally it's the woman that gets to choose. But also keep in mind, in a cold approach situation, most women are going to say no, just because they'll already be in relationships.

 

 

I sit and ask all the questions and none ever come my way.

 

Is this both in platonic and dating situations?

 

I don't bother showing my personality anymore because I know it wont appeal to the audience in question. When I meet, which is frankly hardly ever someone I do like then I do try but even then its irrelevant because they aren't single.

 

Well hiding your personality is counter productive. First, who cares what other people think? You can't control it anyways, so just being yourself is the best thing you can do. If they don't like it, so be it. It has nothing to do with you anyways, it has to do with their thoughts, beliefs, ideas etc.

 

Yes I have asked them to hang out and it never happens. Every so often I get so spend time with some of them but when I reach out its rejected out of hand.

 

So is this both men and women? Friends? Dates? Who is the "them" the you're talking about?

 

 

I'll say this though, the "help" that got passed my way was usually of very little use and let me explain way. I get taken out to clubs and used as a project, a friend decides it best to tell my entire dating history to some lady who then takes pit "lets take him out and I will set him up with my friends". Which is a total disaster because from the off I am not comfortable in that environment and if you aren't the guy who can flirt and doesn't drink a club doesn't offer very much at all.

 

Yeah that wouldn't be helpful. It sounds like your struggles run deeper than just "getting out there". Your whole mindset needs to change, and reading in between the lines I think you really struggle with low self worth. That's where the work needs to be done; everything else is just going to result in spinning your wheels and not getting anywhere.

 

Eventually I declined anymore of this "help" and I have to say I don't regret not getting anymore of it either.

 

Makes sense.

[ZA Dater]

Everybody is different, but most people match up in relationships with people of similar attractiveness levels, and most adults are in a relationship. The only time you might struggle is if you're ONLY attracted to people far above your attractiveness level. But, for most of us, attraction is a fluid concept and dependent on multiple factors, so this won't come into play very often.

 

 

 

Both men and women get to reject. Maybe not in a cold approach situation, but relationships go on past just the approach at times. The man might reject after the first date. Or after the third date. Or after a couple months. Or right after they have sex. But in a cold approach situation, yes generally it's the woman that gets to choose. But also keep in mind, in a cold approach situation, most women are going to say no, just because they'll already be in relationships.

 

 

 

 

Is this both in platonic and dating situations?

 

 

 

Well hiding your personality is counter productive. First, who cares what other people think? You can't control it anyways, so just being yourself is the best thing you can do. If they don't like it, so be it. It has nothing to do with you anyways, it has to do with their thoughts, beliefs, ideas etc.

 

 

 

So is this both men and women? Friends? Dates? Who is the "them" the you're talking about?

 

 

 

 

Yeah that wouldn't be helpful. It sounds like your struggles run deeper than just "getting out there". Your whole mindset needs to change, and reading in between the lines I think you really struggle with low self worth. That's where the work needs to be done; everything else is just going to result in spinning your wheels and not getting anywhere.

 

 

 

Makes sense.

 

 

There are a few really interesting thoughts in the above.

 

 

The irony is let me quote an example of an exchange

 

 

Her: I always want things to be as good as I can get them and I don't like disappointing people

Me: You could never disappoint because you can never do better than your best and your best should never disappoint anyone, it certainly has never disappointed me.

 

 

Right there is the way I tend to work with people, I am all for building people up, its an incredibly long story but people should never underestimate themselves, even people who blindly follow without questioning.

 

 

 

The complicated thing with me is I either really like people or I just don't, for years I tried to figure out what it was about certain people and eventually I figured it was the fact they made me feel things, somehow they spoke to me in a way not always conveyed by words. A lot of this is personality.

 

 

Do I struggle with low self worth, perhaps because when it comes to dating being rejected over and over again has taken its toll, being stood up over and over again, having the odd nasty comment, all these things take their toll. I see guys who go out with one thing as their objective and would I want that yes but it wouldn't be enough, I'd need someone who I could like completely, she would need to really get into my mind, keep me guessing and as someone said "make you want to be a better person". Its a very special feeling that!

 

 

I don't have many friends, never really have and maybe that's the core problem or maybe its the fact people don't relate to me but I can tell you it is great when people do!

[Chilli]

People should want to know who you are but it seems around here which seems to be based mainly in the states and so probably where you are, the only thing that does matter is attractiveness and sex,

 

So apparently , if your below the top 10% in looks, you not only don't wanna be known or to be in a relationship with, but they don't wanna fk you either. Which is basically the relationship anyway from what l can gather , so how good lookin are ya.?

Maybe you should move .

[basil67]

There are a few really interesting thoughts in the above.

 

 

The irony is let me quote an example of an exchange

 

 

Her: I always want things to be as good as I can get them and I don't like disappointing people

Me: You could never disappoint because you can never do better than your best and your best should never disappoint anyone, it certainly has never disappointed me.

 

 

Right there is the way I tend to work with people, I am all for building people up, its an incredibly long story but people should never underestimate themselves, even people who blindly follow without questioning.

 

ZA, this exchange isn't going to work for many women. It may be the way YOU work, but sometimes we just want to be heard. Instead of telling her how to think, it would be interesting to gently probe deeper and find out why she thinks the way she does. Not only that, but many people ARE disappointed when our best still isn't good enough. In short, you're dismissing her feelings and telling her things which aren't always true in the real world. Learn to listen rather than instruct.

 

You also mention the disappointment of being rejected time after time. Thing is, you reject woman after woman. And you're quite picky as to who you go out with in the first place (though I know you would not be outright rude) But by being so picky, you're guilty of doing to others the very thing which makes you feel bad about yourself.

 

If you want to see more broad acceptance of others, start within.

[ZA Dater]

ZA, this exchange isn't going to work for many women. It may be the way YOU work, but sometimes we just want to be heard. Instead of telling her how to think, it would be interesting to gently probe deeper and find out why she thinks the way she does. Not only that, but many people ARE disappointed when our best still isn't good enough. In short, you're dismissing her feelings and telling her things which aren't always true in the real world. Learn to listen rather than instruct.

 

You also mention the disappointment of being rejected time after time. Thing is, you reject woman after woman. And you're quite picky as to who you go out with in the first place (though I know you would not be outright rude) But by being so picky, you're guilty of doing to others the very thing which makes you feel bad about yourself.

 

If you want to see more broad acceptance of others, start within.

 

 

This is interesting to me because I saw what I said as being comforting which was my intention, see this is the issue I always have, I take thing at face value and react to them in that way which clearly is wrong. Unknowingly you have hit upon the thing that irritate me most about myself, I never ever seem to say the right thing, as well intended as what I say is.

 

 

What I gathered from that is that is perhaps a character trait worth talking about but only if she wants to.

 

 

I don't reject women after women, I have been on 3 dates this year and perhaps 4 last year, its not as if I am going through many, the days of me going out with anyone are over because I don't have the time to do that.

 

 

What you advocate is liking someone even if you don't and that school of thought will never ever work with me, its the complete opposite of everything I believe in. You should be looking for the absolute best you can and not stop until you find that person you feel is best for you, the person who makes you feel something, that person who makes you smile, that person you can simply be with, sure compromise and for me I compromise on looks but not on personality and not to the extent that I don't find the person physically attractive.

 

 

Give me the choice of the smart, warm, intelligent, pretty face curvy girl who can talk about anything or the model which every guy looks at, its not contest the former will always grab my attention.

[Mentor99]

Do I struggle with low self worth, perhaps because when it comes to dating being rejected over and over again has taken its toll, being stood up over and over again, having the odd nasty comment, all these things take their toll.

 

I actually highly suspect your dating struggles are a symptom of your low self worth, not the other way around. In fact, from your post, I suspect you've been struggling with low self worth for so long, it feels "normal" to you. Very likely even from childhood.

 

I don't have many friends, never really have and maybe that's the core problem or maybe its the fact people don't relate to me but I can tell you it is great when people do!

 

Low self worth I suspect is the core problem, which will make it tough to connect with people in general whether they be friends or romantic partners.

 

The complicated thing with me is I either really like people or I just don't, for years I tried to figure out what it was about certain people and eventually I figured it was the fact they made me feel things, somehow they spoke to me in a way not always conveyed by words.

 

Would you consider yourself a black and white thinker? From the above, you either like people or you don't. There's no middle ground? People you feel somewhat neutral about? Or people that you like some of their qualities, but don't care for others?

 

And yes, black and white thinking can be also be a symptom of low self worth...

[ZA Dater]

I actually highly suspect your dating struggles are a symptom of your low self worth, not the other way around. In fact, from your post, I suspect you've been struggling with low self worth for so long, it feels "normal" to you. Very likely even from childhood.

 

 

 

Low self worth I suspect is the core problem, which will make it tough to connect with people in general whether they be friends or romantic partners.

 

 

 

Would you consider yourself a black and white thinker? From the above, you either like people or you don't. There's no middle ground? People you feel somewhat neutral about? Or people that you like some of their qualities, but don't care for others?

 

And yes, black and white thinking can be also be a symptom of low self worth...

 

 

 

Well I can connect with people in the business arena well enough to do a decent job, I also have no issue with public speaking but it would be true to say it takes a me while to get comfortable around people.

 

 

There is middle ground but rarely in the dating arena. Let me give you an example with people I connect with that connection happens quite quickly and they just seem to "get" me. I have tried with people I don't connect with but it never really works and mostly I have written it off to simply being too far apart in thinking.

 

 

I can trot out accomplishments if I wanted to but I rarely do this on dates and in general because I am not much of a seller when it comes to myself.

 

 

Ultimately what I am really looking for is someone who makes me feel that connection, being at ease with who I am, I have found most of that, granted there is no romantic interest and its something no quite friends either but I do have that connection which is really nice. The fact there are shared interest and she challenges me just rounds out the immense positivity there is.

 

 

Truthfully it all good enough to make me forget most of the dating disasters, the downside is the more I get the more I want!

[Chilli]

Actually are you up to a few phone calls , you could get him to call and try that before writing it off.

Because there is one thing , some people in any messaging stuff are like pulling teeth, but in person they can be great , never know. !!!

Can't really know if he's seeing others just because he's not around much , maybe you can try a call or two first and if any interest, you can just ask him then.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Chilli

[Chilli]

SHYT , sorry about that this was for the other thread l had up in another tab, disregard .

 

As you were

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually are you up to a few phone calls , you could get him to call and try that before writing it off.

Because there is one thing , some people in any messaging stuff are like pulling teeth, but in person they can be great , never know. !!!

Can't really know if he's seeing others just because he's not around much , maybe you can try a call or two first and if any interest, you can just ask him then.

[Chilli]

Attract people, lets go with that one. I have been out often enough and observed enough to know there is so much embellishment inherent in this its not even funny and you know how it starts, before the person even leave their home and why

 

The only power a guy has are his looks, perceived status and any charm flirting ability he might have, its the latter where the embellishment happens, the change in personality to tailor to ones company.

 

 

 

 

 

???? Geez l dunno , glancing this thread, ideas , so much over analyzing dissecting constructing, holy Toledo , all over something so natural thing and still is in most parts.

 

And if ya wanna pick to bits what attracts what , yaknow that stuff there just a little different is all most chicks have to attract a guy too.

That's why 3 of them end up still at the table all night but one goes missing when guys draw to her,

 

But eh , most of the other 3 meet someone one day anyway and often they end up coming out better than that one that attracts them like flies as well in the long run.

Same thing with guys.

Man , some serious chill pills needed for you guys.

 

The other thing l just scratch my head over and over is what's with all the expecting girls to approach you stuff round here, or is that just some US thing.

Or what are guys too scared to approach them or what , don;t get it.

 

Here she might stare at you all night long but eh that's usually all ya get you gotta go up to her man.

Or you'd end up a pretty lonely guy acting like a female instead of a man let me tell ya.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Chilli

[ZA Dater]

Attract people, lets go with that one. I have been out often enough and observed enough to know there is so much embellishment inherent in this its not even funny and you know how it starts, before the person even leave their home and why

 

The only power a guy has are his looks, perceived status and any charm flirting ability he might have, its the latter where the embellishment happens, the change in personality to tailor to ones company.

 

 

 

 

 

???? Geez l dunno , glancing this thread, ideas , so much over analyzing dissecting constructing, holy Toledo , all over something so natural thing and still is in most parts.

 

And if ya wanna pick to bits what attracts what , yaknow that stuff there just a little different is all most chicks have to attract a guy too.

That's why 3 of them end up still at the table all night but one goes missing when guys draw to her,

 

But eh , most of the other 3 meet someone one day anyway and often they end up coming out better than that one that attracts them like flies as well in the long run.

Same thing with guys.

Man , some serious chill pills needed for you guys.

 

The other thing l just scratch my head over and over is what's with all the expecting girls to approach you stuff round here, or is that just some US thing.

Or what are guys too scared to approach them or what , don;t get it.

 

Here she might stare at you all night long but eh that's usually all ya get you gotta go up to her man.

Or you'd end up a pretty lonely guy acting like a female instead of a man let me tell ya.

 

 

I suppose it depends how you look at things, I am not particularly interested in approaching people, especially as the odds of being rejected are very high.

 

 

Risk mitigation is what I do pretty much everyday and there isn't really ways to mitigate that risk. Just having lunch today it was interesting to see the dynamics of various people, the couples, the guys at the coffee counter checking out the ladies.

 

 

In an ideal world of course there wouldn't be such a premium on dating according to some unwritten code.

[GemmaUK]

In an ideal world of course there wouldn't be such a premium on dating according to some unwritten code.

 

It's not an unwritten code - it's a feeling and taking a risk when you have that feeling.

One should never pause and ponder - just go for it and accept if it doesn't work out and you move on.

There will always be another person and another moment if you're open to it.

Depends if you are open to it.

If you aren't then nope, it won't happen.

Edited June 6, 2018 by GemmaUK

[Chilli]

Hang out in situations your most comfortable and enjoy the most. Could be just a few friends or parties or some sport or hobbies, whatever you like.

It's much easier to just mix with people in situations like that and chit chat about.

[ZA Dater]

Hang out in situations your most comfortable and enjoy the most. Could be just a few friends or parties or some sport or hobbies, whatever you like.

It's much easier to just mix with people in situations like that and chit chat about.

 

 

 

Agree with you, if you have that group its easy I'd imagine, if not I would say its significantly more difficult.

[ZA Dater]

It's not an unwritten code - it's a feeling and taking a risk when you have that feeling.

One should never pause and ponder - just go for it and accept if it doesn't work out and you move on.

There will always be another person and another moment if you're open to it.

Depends if you are open to it.

If you aren't then nope, it won't happen.

 

 

 

I beg to differ, from what I have read it seems there is a very distinct protocol

 

 

1: Date one, meet at a public place, make your own way there

2: Date two an activity type date and try initiate some touching

3: Date three move to a dinner and initiate more touching and try kiss

 

 

You get the idea

 

 

As for open to it, I guess that depends if you are mind reader because some people see moments and other carry on oblivious, mind you that would assume you found anyone interesting to begin with.

 

 

If you measure your chance of success before attempting you can mitigate being rejected.

 

 

Again I suppose that's just not the done thing, I mean what could possibly be awkward about walking up to some random person and starting some random conversation

[GemmaUK]

I beg to differ, from what I have read it seems there is a very distinct protocol

 

 

1: Date one, meet at a public place, make your own way there

2: Date two an activity type date and try initiate some touching

3: Date three move to a dinner and initiate more touching and try kiss

 

 

You get the idea

 

#1 Is advisable for safety reasons.

#2 & 3 dates don't have to be those things but yes, touching and kissing need to come into play otherwise it's just a friendship.

 

Please tell me what is so difficult about any of that though even if they were 'the law'.

[ZA Dater]

#1 Is advisable for safety reasons.

#2 & 3 dates don't have to be those things but yes, touching and kissing need to come into play otherwise it's just a friendship.

 

Please tell me what is so difficult about any of that though even if they were 'the law'.

 

 

 

Well nothing really if you are super confident, outgoing and find single people you like often. Oh and you yourself are attractive, whatever attractive may actually mean.

 

 

Its simply regimented in my view, then again my views have been proven to be wrong so.

 

 

I'll say this to, I think its easy for people who understand people but impossible for those who don't or are in shy.

 

 

I genuinely believe shyness and lack of confidence all go hand in hand and when you have those two, you dating prospects are zero, add in non mainstream interests and well zero just gets magnified, add in few friends and the negatives keep mounting up.

 

 

And yes those so called procedures seem simple but when I chat to people and I get this sort of response

 

 

"Well ABC went in hot the first few dates, expensive dinner here, expensive dinner there, expensive seats at this event" I cant help but wonder...if I had resorted to the same ideas would my results have been any different? Assuming I could find anyone single I liked to put those ideas into practice with.

[basil67]

I am not a goth, yet I was out clubbing with goths last night and while dancing, I came up with the explanation for what you're having trouble understanding: Rather than having one personality with lots of fake bits, most of us have multifaceted personalities and choose to pull out different parts of their personality to adapt to the situation they are in.

 

For instance, a guy will pull out a different part of his personality when visiting his grandmother to the one he uses when he's out with the boys. He pulls out a different personality for being in the office compared to his flirty Saturday night personality. It's not a heap of fakeness - THIS IS ALL HIM. He's just putting it out there in appropriate ways for the situation he's in.

 

You also mentioned clothing. Nearly everywhere you go has a dress code - some stricter than others. One wouldn't wear an office business shirt out on a Saturday night. And one wouldn't wear their Saturday night clothes out for a Sunday picnic.

 

In the case of my clubbing last night: Despite not being a goth, I wear black because that's the dress code - and because it's fun getting dressed up, I love the music and the respectful nature of the clubs. I wasn't faking it - we have a really great time.

 

I suspect your personality is more single faceted that many others, which is why you're having so much trouble connecting. And in understanding how the rest of us adapt by using different facets of who we are.

Edited June 9, 2018 by basil67

[Mysterio]

I try to maintain a though line with my personality. No fakery for me.

[GemmaUK]

Plenty of shy, un-confident people have relationships.

It's not that

 

It's taken you a couple of years to pick up a book on body language which has taught you some of the social cues Enigma is talking about. You have already expressed that it's been helpful in dealing with people in your daily life

The book you picked is a dating centric one but a broader spectrum book would give you more insight into 'people' and yourself.

 

You instantly dislike any woman whom you go on a date with, you don't give people a chance at all. It isn't them not giving you a chance in the majority of these cases, it's the other way around.

No one on a first date is going to wish to get into heavy opinion based debate or conversations. A first date is about seeing if you each fin each other physically attractive in terms of looks, build and mannerisms, whether you share the same or a similar sense of humour, , finding out a little bit about that person and wanting to get to know more about them, how nervous you both are (nervousness is part of a first date - the best way to help eradicate nerves is to express that you're nervous and people will react to that by expressing the same thing hence making it no big deal at all)).

I want to see empathy, kindness, friendliness and fun in a man I meet for a date and the majority of that will come over in his facial expressions and his actions, not just with me but with all whom we come into contact with - if he is only being one certain way with me - that is when I know he is faking it.

 

Basil made a very good point too - and it sounds like she had a blast!

Say Basil was a Spice Girls superfan (sorry Basil! ) though. Can you imagine how it would have gone down if any and every conversation she had had she had turned to talking about the Spice Girls, imagine how much worse it would be also if she had made a dress out of a Union Jack teatowel!! Lol!

In the same light too, she would never go to work in that same outfit. It's not appropriate and would be totally disrespectful in entirely the same was as it would be at the Goth club.

 

Being one way when interacting with all people is more fake (to the person on the receiving end) than bringing out different facets of a personality.

 

No one behaves the same way with a gf/bf as they do with their grandmother/sister/boss/plumber. Likewise those four examples - no one behaves in exactly the same way with any of those people either but the adaptations necessary are not fakery. They are just different facets.

 

All of these things are about social cues (body language, facial expressions and also words coming out of your mouth).

Also, though it can be about the written word - for instance here, on LS or using apps or online dating. There's an example above of friendly interaction and even just me using foresight with Basil - I expect when she reads my Spice Girl example she will raise her eyebrows, possibly laugh (I hope she does - if she is a Spice Girl superfan I'm in for a caning! *cough* Lol!) - but I said sorry and smiled too when writing that example to let her know that it was purely an example meant in jest.

The other side of it though, and more seriously is that I've totally understood what she was talking about and relayed an example to show precisely that. All of that she will understand.

Writing to people in various forms - online especially, we cannot see people's reactions so it's really important to be clear with what we're saying.

You get these dates from Tinder and then in recent times it seems these women are attracted enough to offer you sex - but there's something then about your conversations before a date and your actions during a date that is quite possibly making them think and feel that sex is all you are after. Perhaps, in the first few messages and when asking out you come over to them as if this is a business meeting, not a fun, friendly date.

[basil67]

Gemma, as it so happens, Wannabe is a guilty pleasure of mine. But you're right - I'm better off discussing Nine Inch Nails or The Cure with the goth friends and saving Spice girls for my old school pals who do ironic mum dancing when we go out. Horses for courses.

 

Though I do wish I'd thought to wear a Union Jack dress to one of our drunken fancy dress school fundraisers. It would have been awesome.

[GemmaUK]

Gemma, as it so happens, Wannabe is a guilty pleasure of mine. But you're right - I'm better off discussing Nine Inch Nails or The Cure with the goth friends and saving Spice girls for my old school pals who do ironic mum dancing when we go out. Horses for courses.

 

Though I do wish I'd thought to wear a Union Jack dress to one of our drunken fancy dress school fundraisers. It would have been awesome.

 

Lol! Busted!

Spice Girls 'Stop Right Now' is one of my guilty pleasures! I know all the moves and everything..and er...I equally love Punk & Ska, Erik Satie (19th century composer) and Chesney Hawkes 'The One & Only' is right up there too!.

Sounds like you need to organise a reunion..and get stitching! Pictures are a must!

[Chilli]

This is why l always say whenever l see these crazy lists and garbage that are splattered all over the internet by someone , be yourself.

 

My women has always been about who l am , and me about who she is , l think that'd have to be the most beautiful thing about being with someone, it's the one person in the world that really knows you and loves you warts and all and vice versa, the one person you are both 110% yourselves with.

Why the hell would l want someone about anything else.

 

l really don't get some of the stuff l see around here and over the net or things and thinking that seem to get into peoples heads out there.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Chilli

[GemmaUK]

This is why l always say whenever l see these crazy lists and garbage that are splattered all over the internet by someone , be yourself.

 

My women has always been about who l am , and me about who she is , l think that'd have to be the most beautiful thing about being with someone, it's the one person in the world that really knows you and loves you warts and all and vice versa, the one person you are both 110% yourselves with.

Why the hell would l want someone about anything else.

 

l really don't get some of the stuff l see around here and over the net or things and thinking that seem to get into peoples heads out there.

 

Absolutely agree, however, as an example Chilli:

It's going to be your girlfriend whom you would initiate sex with, you are unlikely to initiate sex with your grandma, your sister, your boss or your plumber.

Plus your girlfriend would think it strange if you didn't initiate sex with her and treated her the same way as you do your grandma, your sister, your boss or your plumber.

 

So, your relationship brings out that facet of your personality, the sexual side.

Do you see where we're coming from here?

 

It doesn't mean you are not still true to yourself in all those interactions, not at all, it just means you adapt to different ways of dealing with different people in your life - which is being yourself.

Behaving with different people in your life differently is not at all being fake.

[Chilli]

Yeah of course all that's there too but not really what l was getting at. What l was getting at goes far beyond .

But anyway to go into it more l'd have to start using 20yrs of being married soooo, they can make of it what they will