Why can't people be liked for who they are

[Chilli]

Why don't you join a date site if you haven't and look for well educated girls . You'll also be able to tell a lot from what they write and nope l don't mean spelling mistakes l mean in what they say and like and things important to them .

 

Also , well there's about a million things actually but you giotta watch that 15minute thing as someone said you will be showing and putting out vibes and that alone can shut it all down like a volt in seconds. People feel this stuff. l know in seconds about a person but l keep that locked away, or try too.

 

Another thing is it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom , that'll also shut things down in seconds. l've been told many times l'm very aware and very intelligent , ha , news to me, no actually l know l see more than anyone l know or meet but the thing is l'm also light hearted and have a killer sense of humor and a way way way too much sense of fun, but l hope to grow up one day. l don't talk heavy all the time , not often at all actually and try not to be all over the serious stuff too often it just brings me down and often bores me. And this really really helps.

Try finding your light hearted side also , it's very important not only to your sanity but also in a relationship. Hell it's handy all over life actually.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Chilli

[ZA Dater]

This is what I was talking about when I mentioned your social circle. If you're not interested in clubs, but the people you hang out around are all going to clubs and drinking, clearly it's not your group of people.

 

If you live in a city with even a relatively large population there will be plenty of people that have no interest in clubs or drinking - they might be the minority, but they exist. You'd do well to put in some effort and find them.

 

This is likely also the issue you're running into using Tinder. Tinder has absolutely no filters, so on one hand it can seem like there are thousands of options out there, on the other hand you literally have no idea what they'll be like and the vast majority of time you won't be compatible.

 

Can I suggest trying a site like OK Cupid? Go on there and answer at least 100 of their questions as honestly as you can. Don't try to answer in a way that you think will appeal to the most women, just answer in a way that speaks to your core values. Be honest.

 

After that search by match percentage. My estimation is that somebody has to be at least a 95% match to have good relationship potential (and preferably they've answered a lot of the questions as well). You'll see that there aren't very many that fall in that 95% range. And the number of women that you're attracted to in that range will be even fewer. And then the number of women in that range, that you're attracted to, that are also attracted to you will be still fewer!

 

But it will give you a realistic perspective on how rare a good match is to find. And so don't get so discouraged when you don't find one. You just have to keep going until you do.

 

 

 

The vast majority of the dates I have had were off OKcupid and you are correct about the %'s, interestingly I met up with an apparent 95% match and well we didn't match at all! Which was quite funny in a way.

 

 

I then tried Elite singles for a few years and this was a very fruitless experience.

[ZA Dater]

Ok. I have given your situation some thought and I think I have the answer to your problems. You need to stop asking women on dates. Many people here, including myself, have given you examples of what kinds of dates you should go on if you want to experience any kind of success. You don't like any of those ideas. You don't want to have a drink, you don't want to walk through a nice park, and you don't really want to take the time out to get to know any of these ladies. That is what dating is, and you don't like any of it. So, stop dating.

 

What you need to do is, up front, give women a very detailed description of what it is you actually are looking for. As it stands now, you are going out with women, and they think they are going on a date, but you just want an intellectual conversation. So, stop dating, and start telling women what you really want. That way, you aren't setting these poor girls up for failure, and maybe you will actually meet someone looking for the same thing you are.

 

 

 

I have done the activity type date before, if anything they are even more difficult than a coffee date because it becomes even more awkward, for example lets take a hike as an example, I am fit and athletic so naturally I have to account for the fact I will walk faster so I walk slower but even that isn't slow enough so we then go through the awkward "you are walking too fast", ok overcome that, now we start talking about the mountain and plants, she has nothing to add.

 

 

Honestly the times I have done this its been like trying to get water out of a rock.

 

 

Trust me if I told them what I want I'd have no takers at all!

 

 

I do think your solution is a good one though for all concerned.

[Chilli]

Nope , if you went layin that shyt on someone new first up , they'd run 100miles an hour.

Blend it into other stuff yeah sure, or if it came up touch on it sure.

l f you've been on sites then don't you go for girls with degrees and stuff ???

Go for Asians not only are they just beautiful and old school but often very well educated , vets and doctors and degrees and usually want a real relationship and marriage.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Chilli

[ZA Dater]

I don't believe anyone is liked for 'who they are' but rather in terms of what value they bring to the lives of others. If you're suffering in life you'll find this out very quickly because the minute people know you have nothing to 'give' at that moment, but 'NEED' instead, people will scatter like rats including those you thought were your best friends.

 

Now... here's another thought.

 

Most people are the same, or to be less delicate... they're sheep. It's the outliers who find themselves at the greatest disadvantage in life, and those people tend to be the most genuine and honest, valuable people out there, but they're misunderstood and misaligned because they frighten people.. they're a threat to the sheep mentality...

 

people are much more like animals than they'd ever admit behaviourally.... and so there are those who fit into the pack which comprises the majority of the population and those who don't. Creative, highly intelligent people capable of independent thought are often revered after ... long after they're gone, usually for great contributions to society be it through art, literature or what have you... but they're very hard for others to understand or to like while they're among us, unfortunately.

 

You've all heard the saying that the more intelligent you are or the more you stand out from the crowd the less friends or mates you are likely to have in this life and it's definitely true. The superior human of thought and action will forever be rejected, generally speaking. Whomever doesn't fit into society would do well to take that into consideration before buying into the herd mentality that they're fundamentally faulty in some way and learn to embrace their differences and to be proud.

 

However, yes, loneliness and not necessarily being liked for who they are will definitely be the price tag that comes with it. And it will be painful. But it's just something that has to be accepted. And if nothing else then, we all need to learn to find out who we are (most don't know) and then learn to like and accept ourselves for exactly who we are despite anyone else's opinion. Getting to know and understand yourself is one of the greatest pathways to peace and happiness.

 

 

 

After reading this at least I know someone else buys into the whole sheep mentality prevalent in society.

 

 

I cant really disagree with much of the above but I would say it is possible to date but the sad thing is most of the admittedly few people I know like this tend to settle for whoever is going to give them attention. That goes for guys and ladies.

 

 

One thing remains universally true, well all need some sort of attention, humans aren't really ideally suited for solitary existence.

 

 

When I go out on the odd occasion its amazing how good some people are at being charming, overly so but I guess it works because that charm is lapped up. Equally its amazing how empty I feel sitting on my own, looking around, see who is trying to pick up who.

[GemmaUK]

ZA, you didn't answer my question. This one here within the quote:

Can you tell me where your responsibility within the realms of dating or a relationship come in please?

 

Why must I bother bringing anything out when I can see the match up doesn't work from the outset? That's like bringing out the silverware for a McDonalds burger. If there was any reciprocal effort it might be worth it but when I think back there rarely were instances where this happened.

The point of the bolded side by side with the whole point of reading body language books was to learn to learn how to bring out the parts of you that can make people feel comfortable around you and in time eventually learn to create connections (at this point in time as pure practice).

Say in a year or so you meet someone and she is everything you want and single, surely you will want to know how to firstly make a connection and become friends with her and surely you would want to know how to use your body language to move that into more than just friendship?

If you are not wishing to learn the how to of that and practice it (on those you may not like so much) then there seems little point in continuing to learn.

Same as with the question I asked copied above, there are things I am prepared to do in order to and practice (and all of us practice all the time with everyone we meet in order to cultivate friendships, acquaintances and actually, even how to deal with people we really dislike and how to behave with them so that they don't get to close to us.

Life, the whole way through is a learning curve because no two people you meet are the exact same.

 

I think your best suggestion is to go with Enigma's advice - I'm going to repost it and bold the part that was the main point because you appear to have completely missed it and you've focused only on the lead up to his main point.

Ok. I have given your situation some thought and I think I have the answer to your problems. You need to stop asking women on dates. Many people here, including myself, have given you examples of what kinds of dates you should go on if you want to experience any kind of success. You don't like any of those ideas. You don't want to have a drink, you don't want to walk through a nice park, and you don't really want to take the time out to get to know any of these ladies. That is what dating is, and you don't like any of it. So, stop dating.

 

What you need to do is, up front, give women a very detailed description of what it is you actually are looking for. As it stands now, you are going out with women, and they think they are going on a date, but you just want an intellectual conversation. So, stop dating, and start telling women what you really want. That way, you aren't setting these poor girls up for failure, and maybe you will actually meet someone looking for the same thing you are.

This would be appropriate for you and considerate towards others too. People would know what you are looking for, know that it would take time but also, being totally honest right off the bat they wouldn't need to read your mind in terms of what you want and what impresses you on a first meet.

Currently, no date is aware at all of what it is that impresses you, it doesn't mean they don't have that side to them, they just don't know you want to see it.

[ZA Dater]

ZA, you didn't answer my question. This one here within the quote:

 

 

 

The point of the bolded side by side with the whole point of reading body language books was to learn to learn how to bring out the parts of you that can make people feel comfortable around you and in time eventually learn to create connections (at this point in time as pure practice).

Say in a year or so you meet someone and she is everything you want and single, surely you will want to know how to firstly make a connection and become friends with her and surely you would want to know how to use your body language to move that into more than just friendship?

If you are not wishing to learn the how to of that and practice it (on those you may not like so much) then there seems little point in continuing to learn.

Same as with the question I asked copied above, there are things I am prepared to do in order to and practice (and all of us practice all the time with everyone we meet in order to cultivate friendships, acquaintances and actually, even how to deal with people we really dislike and how to behave with them so that they don't get to close to us.

Life, the whole way through is a learning curve because no two people you meet are the exact same.

 

I think your best suggestion is to go with Enigma's advice - I'm going to repost it and bold the part that was the main point because you appear to have completely missed it and you've focused only on the lead up to his main point.

 

This would be appropriate for you and considerate towards others too. People would know what you are looking for, know that it would take time but also, being totally honest right off the bat they wouldn't need to read your mind in terms of what you want and what impresses you on a first meet.

Currently, no date is aware at all of what it is that impresses you, it doesn't mean they don't have that side to them, they just don't know you want to see it.

 

 

 

Fair point and I'll try answer the bold, in terms of responsibility, to be honest I have no idea seeing as I have zero practical experience. If I had to guess I would say to provide empathy, support, be interested in her life, do thinks to make her happy, support in bad time, celebrate in good, encourage and simply care.

 

 

Body language I think is more useful for me in business world and that's where I am using it most actually, I the sense reading people, reading people sitting around negotiating. I never had issues with this before but reading people around a table this way has proved to be useful. Probably because my mind is always geared around work and set objectives.

 

 

As for what I want being single, very unlikely people who have the attributes I like have much better choices than me and most aren't single so I wont say I am sitting around hoping for that person to arrive. Even if they did I wouldn't be able to anything as I have no experience at all, I can be a fantastic person but there will be some issue which they don't like and that's that.

 

 

 

The entire point of impressing is to not know what impresses people, I assume when people go on dates they go as the best version of themselves and I would prefer that over saying "well if you do this I will be impressed", all that happens then is more deceit and fakery ensues.

 

 

No two people are the same but two people can behave roughly in the same way.

 

 

It remains the same though, I either connect or I don't, not really sure how body language can help.

[Chilli]

What a frickin waste of energy , you can lead a horse to water eh !

l'm seeing the issue splattered all over this thread, good luck op.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Chilli

[Fair]

I've never heard the saying that the more intelligent one is or standing out makes you have less friends. I have some highly intelligent and creative friends and I find people flocking towards them. Thing is, they also have great social intelligence. It's those who struggle with social intelligence who are lonely.

.

 

Assuming everyone who aren't accepted lack social intelligence is false. It may be that in SOME cases, but many times it's less to do with that than simply being hardwired differently ... as some people are... some don't fit in because they simply don't THINK like other people. This I know from experience.

 

As for the correlation between higher intelligence and less friends and having a harder time finding life partners... just google it. It's a proven fact. It's not because of social awkwardness... it's CHOICE. The more intelligent you are, the more selective you are... on top of being less able to fit in simply due to being different than the majority in terms of how you think, feel, and experience life. Not all of us see the world the same way. Not all people think the same way. But those who have no trouble being accepted and who skim through life have scant awareness of things like this, but the information is there if you want to start looking for it.

 

Just google 'gifted people and their problems'. It'll take you to a very interesting website. Fascinating stuff and sadly all too true.

[ZA Dater]

Instead, you choose to invite women out so that you can "sit on your mountain and judge" them and call them sheep? Yes, if you let them know what you have in store for them, you will have fewer takers, but since your idea of what a good date is will differ so much from that of the average person, the only right thing to do is to let women know in advance. I mean, your goal is to find a woman you actually like, right? Not just go out with as many women as possible then judge them?

 

 

 

Don't confuse judging with simply not connecting. If people want to follow the crowd and it works for them then all is fine, I cant deride what works for most people but I don't have to agree with the methods employed.

 

 

Ultimately put it like this, I get nothing and they get everything so I think I am clearly wrong but I am simply not prepared to step in line while I know that there are on extremely rare cases people I do like.

[GemmaUK]

Fair point and I'll try answer the bold, in terms of responsibility, to be honest I have no idea seeing as I have zero practical experience. If I had to guess I would say to provide empathy, support, be interested in her life, do thinks to make her happy, support in bad time, celebrate in good, encourage and simply care.

This is not what I was meaning at all, I wasn't clear enough with where the question was coming from so I'll clear that up.

My question of what do you see as your responsibility in dating came from:

You don't like to take a woman out to dinner, you don't like activity dates,both of these are pretty standard ways in which you can make use of the time you spend together to 'show' a lady that you want to get to know her and she could be someone special to you.

On a dinner date, simple things such as opening the door, placing your hand in the knook of her back to lead her through the door that you have opened for her or, if you meet in the bar area, the same can be done to lead her when you begin to head in the direction of the restaurant area. Then if there is a cloakroom, know of it, anticipate that and offer to take her coat. help her with it instead of leaving it for the staff.

When you reach the table the staff will pull out her chair, let her sit fractionally before you do but you can also glance around, check for air con units above and if she likes the table and will be warm enough. If they place you on a table where one seat can see a view and the other can't then let her have the best seat - just little things to show that you treat her that bit differently to anyone else in your life because if you are on a date then she very well could be that special person.

You can discuss the menu, positives, things you love and can recommend, keep it very brief if you've tried something there and hated it.

Being friendly, smiley and respectful to the wait staff, if a mistake is made by them to sail through it and understand accidents happen. Show that you can be kind and respectful to others. If you wish to move tables, again, do it respectfully.

Say you were to go hiking, you're the guy and you are stronger so there's essentials which you could take and carry for you both - snacks, a blanket to sit on etc. Offer her a hand when on an incline or slippery surface and if you are in front turn and check on her.

If you don't want to choose these kinds of dates - dinner or activities then what IS your kind of date? If you meet for say a drink and maybe you talk general knowledge then how are you going to get to talking about things that she likes to do? That's kinda small talk stuff - which you don't like but talking about it means you would have an idea of what you guys could do on another date.

Then, things like touching - first touch of an arm, shoulder, a first kiss.

From what you have been saying in this thread it comes over as she needs to really impress you, she needs to bring you out from your expressionless face.

You are not interested in bringing yourself out, making her feel comfortable with you and this responsibility appears to be ALL down to her so looking at the above as examples, what responsibility is YOURS on a date?

 

Another aspect is whether you ever guide or lead any conversations. I've never been quite sure what you mean when you say 'general knowledge'. If I were with you do you want me to talk about animal facts? Trump? Volcanoes? History? Do you ever lead a conversation or do you just shut down and wait to be impressed? It always sounds like these dates ask you questions, do you ever ask any?

 

Body language I think is more useful for me in business world and that's where I am using it most actually, I the sense reading people, reading people sitting around negotiating. I never had issues with this before but reading people around a table this way has proved to be useful. Probably because my mind is always geared around work and set objectives.

Body language is very useful in business but it's crucial in dating and relationships as it's a huge part of both. People who don't even speak the same verbal language fall in love.

On a date, I will always help the guy to feel relaxed, that means I will talk light stuff, I will self depreciate, I will open up about certain things.

It sounds like these women you meet are doing the same and doing their best to help relax you. When you are expressionless (as you've said your favourite expression) they see you looking uncomfortable, shy, bored so they talk about light things to help ease that situation.

 

Something I find strange is that when you do go on a date and come here to post about it there's never any details, no she said 'x and y and z' and I repied '1 and 2 and 3'. The devil is in the detail - some of which will always be spoken word.

It's crossed my mind before that eg your last date where she asked you back to her place. She could well have been so confused about what might ease the situation, make you happy, find the reason you chose to meet her that she offered sex because she just struggled through the date wondering why you even met her and figured maybe sex was all you were after.

It's like when the comedian is just not making people laugh he goes to the last resort to get a giggle - that being self depreciation about the fact he is not making anyone laugh. If he gets a laugh outta that then some ice is broken and he can carry on.

 

If you made a change and gave it a try to go with Enigma's suggestion then a whopping amount of the pressure would be taken off meeting someone (for them). They wouldn't be expecting a date, they would be expecting a meet with conversation and they would be ready for that. They wouldn't be confused about why you met them and offer you sex. The pressure would also be off you too, you don't need to be attracted to that person but you could end up wowed by them and they by you.

 

One way or another you need to change your approach because you are the common denominator.

You can continue to go on Tinder dates but realise that they make light conversation to help put you at ease, you can absolutely do the same in return instead of continuing to have these terribly awkward dates. I have been on a huge amount of terrible dates but I have always always made that person with me feel comfortable around me. It makes no difference whether I am attracted to them or not.

Or, like Enigma suggested, make this a plan to meet and converse, make the purpose of the meet to do that - from which friendships can grow and connections far greater than friendships can follow.

 

No two people are the same but two people can behave roughly in the same way.

Absolutely! Which is why body language is so very important - no matter who we are or what verbal language we speak we all have the same 8 different expressions which we use to communicate to people.

 

It remains the same though, I either connect or I don't, not really sure how body language can help.

See the paragraph above for your answer.

[guest569]

Well said Gemma.

On a first date I’m usually pretty nervous so talking about light subjects that anyone can relate to helps put us at ease. It doesn’t mean I’m incapable of talking about volcanos, neuroscience and politics. I just don’t think a first date is the right time. I don’t want to be challenged or scrutinised. But setting out to meet to have a discussion or debate changes things (still would like some ice breakers and basic facts and chit chat first)

[GemmaUK]

To add to my post above as I was too late to edit:

 

ETA: And, you know what is a shame is that you speak of fakery yet you are able to display yourself to one person without it being fake. You are animated with her, you can laugh, there's a number of things you do with her that if you chose to dip your toe in you could do with others.

You are yourself with her.

What you actually do is behave in a way that is not yourself with others - you close up and what happens is you are then being fake.

[basil67]

Assuming everyone who aren't accepted lack social intelligence is false. It may be that in SOME cases, but many times it's less to do with that than simply being hardwired differently ... as some people are... some don't fit in because they simply don't THINK like other people. This I know from experience.

 

As for the correlation between higher intelligence and less friends and having a harder time finding life partners... just google it. It's a proven fact. It's not because of social awkwardness... it's CHOICE. The more intelligent you are, the more selective you are... on top of being less able to fit in simply due to being different than the majority in terms of how you think, feel, and experience life. Not all of us see the world the same way. Not all people think the same way. But those who have no trouble being accepted and who skim through life have scant awareness of things like this, but the information is there if you want to start looking for it.

 

Just google 'gifted people and their problems'. It'll take you to a very interesting website. Fascinating stuff and sadly all too true.

 

Ah if we're talking about people being friendless by choice, then you're right that there's more to it than social intelligence. I was thinking you were talking about intelligent people not being able to make friends. If they are happy being alone, then more strength to them.

 

One of the things which strikes me about the way you describe the thinking patterns of a person with superior intelligence (who chooses to not be friends with we boring sheep people) is the pretentious attitude they have. I don't think they'd find many willing friends among the hoi polloi anyway.

 

Of course, I do know some very highly intelligent people who genuinely enjoy the company of others and can have a good chat with just about anyone and are very popular. These people aren't the pretentious sort.

[ZA Dater]

To add to my post above as I was too late to edit:

 

ETA: And, you know what is a shame is that you speak of fakery yet you are able to display yourself to one person without it being fake. You are animated with her, you can laugh, there's a number of things you do with her that if you chose to dip your toe in you could do with others.

You are yourself with her.

What you actually do is behave in a way that is not yourself with others - you close up and what happens is you are then being fake.

 

 

 

Because a few people have a personality I find attractive and crucially they are easy to talk to and they get me basically immediately, the fact none of them are romantically interested is actually irrelevant, if I had enough of these people enough of the time I would not really bother with dating, I'd get 80% of what I want out of that sort of friendship.

[GemmaUK]

Looks like you missed the whole lead up to that ETA.

Post 117.

[ZA Dater]

This is not what I was meaning at all, I wasn't clear enough with where the question was coming from so I'll clear that up.

My question of what do you see as your responsibility in dating came from:

You don't like to take a woman out to dinner, you don't like activity dates,both of these are pretty standard ways in which you can make use of the time you spend together to 'show' a lady that you want to get to know her and she could be someone special to you.

On a dinner date, simple things such as opening the door, placing your hand in the knook of her back to lead her through the door that you have opened for her or, if you meet in the bar area, the same can be done to lead her when you begin to head in the direction of the restaurant area. Then if there is a cloakroom, know of it, anticipate that and offer to take her coat. help her with it instead of leaving it for the staff.

When you reach the table the staff will pull out her chair, let her sit fractionally before you do but you can also glance around, check for air con units above and if she likes the table and will be warm enough. If they place you on a table where one seat can see a view and the other can't then let her have the best seat - just little things to show that you treat her that bit differently to anyone else in your life because if you are on a date then she very well could be that special person.

You can discuss the menu, positives, things you love and can recommend, keep it very brief if you've tried something there and hated it.

Being friendly, smiley and respectful to the wait staff, if a mistake is made by them to sail through it and understand accidents happen. Show that you can be kind and respectful to others. If you wish to move tables, again, do it respectfully.

Say you were to go hiking, you're the guy and you are stronger so there's essentials which you could take and carry for you both - snacks, a blanket to sit on etc. Offer her a hand when on an incline or slippery surface and if you are in front turn and check on her.

If you don't want to choose these kinds of dates - dinner or activities then what IS your kind of date? If you meet for say a drink and maybe you talk general knowledge then how are you going to get to talking about things that she likes to do? That's kinda small talk stuff - which you don't like but talking about it means you would have an idea of what you guys could do on another date.

Then, things like touching - first touch of an arm, shoulder, a first kiss.

From what you have been saying in this thread it comes over as she needs to really impress you, she needs to bring you out from your expressionless face.

You are not interested in bringing yourself out, making her feel comfortable with you and this responsibility appears to be ALL down to her so looking at the above as examples, what responsibility is YOURS on a date?

 

Another aspect is whether you ever guide or lead any conversations. I've never been quite sure what you mean when you say 'general knowledge'. If I were with you do you want me to talk about animal facts? Trump? Volcanoes? History? Do you ever lead a conversation or do you just shut down and wait to be impressed? It always sounds like these dates ask you questions, do you ever ask any?

 

 

Body language is very useful in business but it's crucial in dating and relationships as it's a huge part of both. People who don't even speak the same verbal language fall in love.

On a date, I will always help the guy to feel relaxed, that means I will talk light stuff, I will self depreciate, I will open up about certain things.

It sounds like these women you meet are doing the same and doing their best to help relax you. When you are expressionless (as you've said your favourite expression) they see you looking uncomfortable, shy, bored so they talk about light things to help ease that situation.

 

Something I find strange is that when you do go on a date and come here to post about it there's never any details, no she said 'x and y and z' and I repied '1 and 2 and 3'. The devil is in the detail - some of which will always be spoken word.

It's crossed my mind before that eg your last date where she asked you back to her place. She could well have been so confused about what might ease the situation, make you happy, find the reason you chose to meet her that she offered sex because she just struggled through the date wondering why you even met her and figured maybe sex was all you were after.

It's like when the comedian is just not making people laugh he goes to the last resort to get a giggle - that being self depreciation about the fact he is not making anyone laugh. If he gets a laugh outta that then some ice is broken and he can carry on.

 

If you made a change and gave it a try to go with Enigma's suggestion then a whopping amount of the pressure would be taken off meeting someone (for them). They wouldn't be expecting a date, they would be expecting a meet with conversation and they would be ready for that. They wouldn't be confused about why you met them and offer you sex. The pressure would also be off you too, you don't need to be attracted to that person but you could end up wowed by them and they by you.

 

One way or another you need to change your approach because you are the common denominator.

You can continue to go on Tinder dates but realise that they make light conversation to help put you at ease, you can absolutely do the same in return instead of continuing to have these terribly awkward dates. I have been on a huge amount of terrible dates but I have always always made that person with me feel comfortable around me. It makes no difference whether I am attracted to them or not.

Or, like Enigma suggested, make this a plan to meet and converse, make the purpose of the meet to do that - from which friendships can grow and connections far greater than friendships can follow.

 

 

Absolutely! Which is why body language is so very important - no matter who we are or what verbal language we speak we all have the same 8 different expressions which we use to communicate to people.

 

 

See the paragraph above for your answer.

 

 

 

The first paragraph is what I deem general manners and things I do as a matter of course on dates. Not sure where you get the idea I wont do dinner dates, for a long time it was the only type of date I did!

 

 

You might actually be surprised I am pretty relaxed on dates and I do try to bring some humour and some light heartedness to the time spent, I am not quite so inexperienced that I try and make people feel awkward I actually try and make them feel comfortable by asking about them. The issue I have is they never ask about me!

 

 

The problem is there is only so much small talk I can take, if it was a matter of them telling me about what they want to do in the next few years, general interests then its fine but what inevitably happens is they cant relate to me, which is perhaps why they don't ask me questions.

 

 

Unfortunately in some respects I don't live a very relatable life for the people I end up meeting. Again when they relate to me things go along much better and the conversation flows, there is some common interest or suchlike.

 

 

The suggestion offered does not seem to have any upsides because I tried it before and people use dating sites to date not to find friends. In one sense it has an upside if I find someone who actually wants to be my friend but I fear my general awkwardness would put many off that idea.

 

 

Look I have chatted to some via whatsapp but inevitably the conversation dies off when I don't sense there is any connection.

 

 

As for a change of approach, perhaps I need to change what I actually want from this and decide if I want it as much as I think I do. Like everyone I get cajoled into believing the idea, we all know people who seem to be the poster couple and yes each time I spend time with people I like I do wonder it would be like to have more than 70% and perhaps romantically I try believe in the idea whilst ignoring the facts.

 

 

I always end up finding what I want doesn't want me or isn't available, only ONCE have I managed to turn that into a friendship of sorts.

[Mentor99]

Here's the thing OP. The more I read this thread, the more I think that deep down, you actually don't want success at dating and / or a relationship. You're avoiding it I suspect because of the risks. You, at your core, feel that if someone truly got to know you, they wouldn't love you and would reject you. So if you can avoid that at all costs you will.

 

And that's what you're doing. Of course you're conflicted because it's very natural for someone to want to love and feel loved, so you're trying to come to terms with avoiding a relationship, while wanting a relationship.

 

I would be shocked if you've been on 20 first dates in the last decade. And never have you been on a second date. You are then extrapolating these (in your mind) "truths" about what it must take to succeed with dating from a tiny sample size that isn't actually close to reality at all. But believing there is some sort of fakeness that people must portray in order to succeed at dating is an easier belief and helps you keep avoiding relationships as they are far too risky.

 

If, at your core, you truly don't want a relationship because of the fears associated, then no advice that anyone gives you will sink in and you will fight even the best advice. And that's how this thread is playing out. I suspect if I check, I'll see a similar pattern in your other threads.

 

It can't be easy living with that fear and lack of self worth day after day. I admire your resilience. I hope you one day seek some help to unravel those powerful negative thoughts in your head and begin to move forward.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Mentor99

[GoreSP]

I did not read the entire thread, but to answer OPs question: y'all are not entitled to attention and love just for existing!

If you want to be appreciated for your authenticity, don't expect that from fake people.

 

everyone in my entourage appreciates and loves me for who I am. That being said, this is my parents, a cousin and two friends.

Big groups tend to act as one and not always authentically. Consider gravitating towards smaller groups?

[ZA Dater]

Here's the thing OP. The more I read this thread, the more I think that deep down, you actually don't want success at dating and / or a relationship. You're avoiding it I suspect because of the risks. You, at your core, feel that if someone truly got to know you, they wouldn't love you and would reject you. So if you can avoid that at all costs you will.

 

And that's what you're doing. Of course you're conflicted because it's very natural for someone to want to love and feel loved, so you're trying to come to terms with avoiding a relationship, while wanting a relationship.

 

I would be shocked if you've been on 20 first dates in the last decade. And never have you been on a second date. You are then extrapolating these (in your mind) "truths" about what it must take to succeed with dating from a tiny sample size that isn't actually close to reality at all. But believing there is some sort of fakeness that people must portray in order to succeed at dating is an easier belief and helps you keep avoiding relationships as they are far too risky.

 

If, at your core, you truly don't want a relationship because of the fears associated, then no advice that anyone gives you will sink in and you will fight even the best advice. And that's how this thread is playing out. I suspect if I check, I'll see a similar pattern in your other threads.

 

It can't be easy living with that fear and lack of self worth day after day. I admire your resilience. I hope you one day seek some help to unravel those powerful negative thoughts in your head and begin to move forward.

 

 

 

The number is far greater than 20 that I can tell you. You are right just not in the way you think you are, some of those dates did like me, that much I could ascertain but I simply felt nothing for the ones that liked me or they were fundamentally incompatible with me, not going to go there in the general forum but suffice to say the fit would not have worked.

 

 

Where you are wrong is I do let people in from time to time and I have two confidants who do get me, both I am fond of in different ways and both provide tremendous tacit motivation to improve. Why don't I let people in, well the spectre of judgement is never far away.

 

 

At the heart of it is the inability to conjure up any sort of positive dating experience, I have a better time with my one friend than I ever had any date, why because its everything people are describing in this thread, the conversation works, I am animated, I even try some humour and I just feel comfortable the proviso is it didn't take me months to find that comfort it took minutes.

 

 

So yes I know how good some it can be and I suppose I am always going to chase that feeling, its just incredibly hard/impossible to replicate it, well it seems anyway. Years of being treated as some sort of project have pretty much take their toll.

[Mentor99]

The number is far greater than 20 that I can tell you.

 

Well consider me shocked! How many dates per year would you estimate you go on? I'm not sure I mentioned this, but when I was at my peak dating, and the method I used that ended up in meeting my now fiance, had me meeting approximately 10 different women in one month approximately. Are you in that ballpark? Keep in mind I'm very average on all fronts..

 

You are right just not in the way you think you are, some of those dates did like me, that much I could ascertain but I simply felt nothing for the ones that liked me or they were fundamentally incompatible with me, not going to go there in the general forum but suffice to say the fit would not have worked.

 

Same with me. That's what happens when dating strangers. The vast majority will be incompatible.

 

Where you are wrong is I do let people in from time to time and I have two confidants who do get me, both I am fond of in different ways and both provide tremendous tacit motivation to improve.

 

But both of these people I'm guessing are unavailable to you as a romantic partner. So they're pretty safe in that regard.

 

Why don't I let people in, well the spectre of judgement is never far away.

 

It's not other people's judgement; it's that you feel judged.

 

What other people think of you is really none of your business, and not important in the slightest. This is a lesson that many people take a very, very long time to learn.

 

 

At the heart of it is the inability to conjure up any sort of positive dating experience, I have a better time with my one friend than I ever had any date, why because its everything people are describing in this thread, the conversation works, I am animated, I even try some humour and I just feel comfortable the proviso is it didn't take me months to find that comfort it took minutes.

 

You're comfortable because there's no risk attached. This person isn't going to be a romantic partner. Seems that once there is a chance someone might be interested, you work hard (likely subconsciously) to make sure it doesn't happen.

 

So yes I know how good some it can be and I suppose I am always going to chase that feeling, its just incredibly hard/impossible to replicate it, well it seems anyway.

 

I'm glad you have a couple friends/confidants, but chasing feelings is the mistake of many. Feelings are transient and quite meaningless overall.

 

Years of being treated as some sort of project have pretty much take their toll.

 

Feeling like some sort of project; not being treated like some sort of project. And your issues with self-worth very likely were there before dating came into the picture. I suspect either childhood, or being bullied in school, or even trauma / abuse. Your dating woes are a symptom, not the cause.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Mentor99

[ZA Dater]

Well consider me shocked! How many dates per year would you estimate you go on? I'm not sure I mentioned this, but when I was at my peak dating, and the method I used that ended up in meeting my now fiance, had me meeting approximately 10 different women in one month approximately. Are you in that ballpark? Keep in mind I'm very average on all fronts..

 

 

 

Same with me. That's what happens when dating strangers. The vast majority will be incompatible.

 

 

 

But both of these people I'm guessing are unavailable to you as a romantic partner. So they're pretty safe in that regard.

 

 

 

It's not other people's judgement; it's that you feel judged.

 

What other people think of you is really none of your business, and not important in the slightest. This is a lesson that many people take a very, very long time to learn.

 

 

 

 

You're comfortable because there's no risk attached. This person isn't going to be a romantic partner. Seems that once there is a chance someone might be interested, you work hard (likely subconsciously) to make sure it doesn't happen.

 

 

 

I'm glad you have a couple friends/confidants, but chasing feelings is the mistake of many. Feelings are transient and quite meaningless overall.

 

 

 

Feeling like some sort of project; not being treated like some sort of project. And your issues with self-worth very likely were there before dating came into the picture. I suspect either childhood, or being bullied in school, or even trauma / abuse. Your dating woes are a symptom, not the cause.

 

 

 

I have never had that much time and OLD has really not conjured up many semi decent choices, I'd say I have been on 30 odd dates in the last few years. I realise quickly not to bother wasting my time with people where I saw no minute prospect but inevitably met these people anyway.

 

 

Well one is more of a older sister figure so I would never think of her in that way, the other is very nice and I could have dated her had I been a better person when the opportunity presented itself.

 

 

I'd agree what others think isn't important but it does effect your marketability if you are thought of poorly and consistently so.

 

 

Yes, I have been often treated as some sort of project by the few friends I do have, constant pressure to get laid, taken to a strip club, trying to set me up with people who clearly aren't interested in me, trying to set me up with random people, telling my dating story to all and sundry.

 

 

None of that was very pleasant.

 

 

As I say I have experienced some of the good parts which people think are insignificant but I cant really find anyone single to replicate that with.

 

 

I try keep myself busy with various things, I wouldn't say I have any real sort of social life and if I do its minimal at best and the people are at very different stages in their lives to me.

 

 

What is irritating is I know what I have to give but I look around at what people seem to want and those aren't my attributes. I look at the type of nonsense some people put up with and I'd never contemplate leaving my gf to move her own apartment, yet I have seen this more than once. Her car breaks down, nope bf nowhere to be seen, its this sort of thing I have seen so often and yet the praises of these guys are sung.

 

 

I simply don't get it. Gemma mentioned some examples and honestly I have never seen many of those done, I do them and get the strangest looks you can imagine.

 

 

When it comes to trying I do actually try but it just dispiriting to come across the same sort of people over and over again, different looks, same viewpoint. You know why I get along with friend 2 so well, well because she has a wide range of interests and has knowledge so there is plenty to talk about. No matter what I do is largely irrelevant because the people are unsuitable from the outset.

 

 

Often I think its better to enjoy time spent with friend 2 and bin dating for good because I get most of what I want when I see her, which is often enough but its better than nothing.

[Mentor99]

I have never had that much time and OLD has really not conjured up many semi decent choices, I'd say I have been on 30 odd dates in the last few years. I realise quickly not to bother wasting my time with people where I saw no minute prospect but inevitably met these people anyway.

 

Ok so approximately 10 dates / year. Less than 1 date / month. Not much really.

 

Well one is more of a older sister figure so I would never think of her in that way, the other is very nice and I could have dated her had I been a better person when the opportunity presented itself.

 

So correct to say neither of these are romantically available to you?

 

I'd agree what others think isn't important but it does effect your marketability if you are thought of poorly and consistently so.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "thought of poorly". If you mean that some people aren't attracted to you, well that again doesn't matter. I guarantee you MOST women aren't attracted to me. The large majority wouldn't even look twice. But I'm not going to date those women anyways. By being yourself, you market yourself to the women that will find someone like you attracted. That will not be the majority of women (and that's the case for practically every average guy out there), but, as you've admitted, there are some women that have found you to be attractive.

 

Yes, I have been often treated as some sort of project by the few friends I do have, constant pressure to get laid, taken to a strip club, trying to set me up with people who clearly aren't interested in me, trying to set me up with random people, telling my dating story to all and sundry.

 

You've posted a lot about your dating story here and random strangers have tried to help. I can imagine your friends are even more invested in your happiness so they too would like to help. Their methods don't seem to fit who you are as a person though (again I'll mention I think you need to find a different social circle).

 

As I say I have experienced some of the good parts which people think are insignificant but I cant really find anyone single to replicate that with.

 

It doesn't sound like you're trying very hard to find someone single to replicate that with. Less than one date per month? You're setting yourself up for failure.

 

I try keep myself busy with various things, I wouldn't say I have any real sort of social life and if I do its minimal at best and the people are at very different stages in their lives to me.

 

Time to find a new social circle...

 

What is irritating is I know what I have to give but I look around at what people seem to want and those aren't my attributes.

 

You know everybody is different right? What one person wants another might find repulsive. There's nothing that you've mentioned that makes me think nobody would be interested in you.

 

Maybe what you mean to say, is that the one woman you have a crush on, isn't interested in you romantically and tends to go for guys that are nothing like you?

 

I look at the type of nonsense some people put up with and I'd never contemplate leaving my gf to move her own apartment, yet I have seen this more than once. Her car breaks down, nope bf nowhere to be seen, its this sort of thing I have seen so often and yet the praises of these guys are sung.

 

Because those women are interested in different qualities, and that's fine. There's nothing frustrating or nonsensical about it. Some women like jocks. Some like geeks. Some like musicians. Some like yuppies. Some like hippies. Some just like blue collar. Some like academics. Etc. etc. etc. Just because you've seen a few examples of women that like men different from you doesn't mean it's the ABSOLUTE RULE FOR ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE.

 

 

I simply don't get it. Gemma mentioned some examples and honestly I have never seen many of those done, I do them and get the strangest looks you can imagine.

 

She gave some great examples. I think many of them are dependent on the situation though. It is a skill though to try to establish a rapport one a first date and that takes effort from both sides.

 

When it comes to trying I do actually try but it just dispiriting to come across the same sort of people over and over again, different looks, same viewpoint.

 

Honestly, and I can't stress this enough, everybody is different and unique in their own way. You're filtering these people through your lens and they're all coming out the same. It's your impression of them that's the same; not who they are.

 

You know why I get along with friend 2 so well, well because she has a wide range of interests and has knowledge so there is plenty to talk about.

 

You make it seem like this is some rare combination of traits unique only to friend 2. This is actually the case for a lot of people. She isn't some special snowflake.

 

No matter what I do is largely irrelevant because the people are unsuitable from the outset.

 

This might be true of some; I have no doubt about that. But whether suitable or not, you can practice making people feel comfortable. I gave an example of a date where we were clearly unsuitable, but we still had a good time and good conversation. That can be a goal.

 

Often I think its better to enjoy time spent with friend 2 and bin dating for good because I get most of what I want when I see her, which is often enough but its better than nothing.

 

I suspect you've tried to ban the thought of dating before. Repressing those very natural desires won't end well. And doesn't work long term. As you've no doubt noticed...

[Fair]

Ah if we're talking about people being friendless by choice, then you're right that there's more to it than social intelligence. I was thinking you were talking about intelligent people not being able to make friends. If they are happy being alone, then more strength to them.

 

One of the things which strikes me about the way you describe the thinking patterns of a person with superior intelligence (who chooses to not be friends with we boring sheep people) is the pretentious attitude they have. I don't think they'd find many willing friends among the hoi polloi anyway.

 

Of course, I do know some very highly intelligent people who genuinely enjoy the company of others and can have a good chat with just about anyone and are very popular. These people aren't the pretentious sort.

 

Well, again, it's not pretentiousness. It's an inability to connect with people on a level they need in order to feel a part of a group or in a relationship or what have you. They just operate on a different wavelength and life is actually harder for them than for the average person in all ways including work, when you'd think it would be easier. But... there's a lot of reading on the subject. No one is going to delve into it though unless they're experiencing the pain of it themselves which is unfortunate. Because if people don't fit in, the knee jerk reaction is to have no compassion and no attempts are made to understand. The misfits are blamed for being inadequate... and a lot of gifted people have grown up believing it. Of course if the person were openly identified as gifted they would still face hostility so... there'd be no winning anyway.

[basil67]

You might actually be surprised I am pretty relaxed on dates and I do try to bring some humour and some light heartedness to the time spent, I am not quite so inexperienced that I try and make people feel awkward I actually try and make them feel comfortable by asking about them.

 

I'm a little confused. You told us earlier that a neutral face is your preferred presentation. Thing is, a neutral face can't co-exist with how you describe yourself above. Being relaxed, lighthearted and making people feel comfortable requires facial expression.

 

I do hear you on the lack of asking questions though. Hubby and I were recently discussing how we seem to be encountering this more and more often. And even if people do ask a question, they don't probe deeper. Eg; I told someone I got a new job working from home recently. They don't know anything about the field so they really don't know what I'd be doing. Did they ask what it would involve? Did they ask when I'd start or how much work it would be? Nope. They just said "oh, that's good". Wondering if people are losing the art of conversation or if we are just becoming more aware.