The vulnerable widow

[salparadise]

Saturday night I saw a profile on a dating site and shot her a message. She lives in a town where I spent some time as a child and worked for a short while after college. I said, I thought I'd just say hello and told her how familiar I am with the area where she lives. So we start messaging back and forth and it turns out that we've had a lot of common experiences and know some of the same people. There was a lot of synergy in the messaging.

 

The next night, Sunday, I asked if I could call instead of messaging and she gave me her number. We talked a couple of hours and found even more stuff in common. Then we started talking about emotional stuff... loss, loneliness, vulnerability, etc. She's a wonderful, loving, genuine, open-hearted woman who is terribly lonely after she lost her husband, the love of her life, two years ago.

 

But she's a complete novice when it comes to dating. She started texting again this morning (Monday) and I suspected that she was getting ahead of herself as she was asking questions and revealing information that one would normally hold in reserve for awhile. She has only recently signed onto the site, and has not met anyone, or even conversed with anyone real, since her husband died. She asked something to the effect of where is this heading (not in so many words), so I called her.

 

To make a long story short... yes, she was getting way ahead of herself. She was ready to go all in. Said she had never imagined that she'd meet someone like me... And she's not a naive person who can't think for herself. She's a PhD (medical) and well established, attractive, smart, and savvy in other respects. I told her we needed to pull back a bit and be more rational about all of this. I reminded her that we have distance/relocation issues, religious differences, and other practical considerations. We agreed to pull back and chat again, maybe meet halfway for lunch sometime.

 

We talked some about the unique aspects of widowhood, and how it might feel for a new man to exist in the shadow of her late husband. I told her that she should be grateful for having experienced that deep, abiding love that we all want, but may never have. She confessed that she feels a desire and ability to give that kind of love and depth to someone again. So we agreed to cool it and chat again at some point.

 

Here I was with a really nice woman basically saying, I'm yours- come and get me, and I cut the line and let her go. She has exactly the kind of openness and availability that ninety-nice percent of people online do not. I felt like it was too easy, like I'd be taking advantage of her somehow. Almost everything I think I want, and when it's served up piping hot I second guess. Anyone have any thoughts?

Edited June 11, 2018 by salparadise

[Mentor99]

Well my first thought is your instinct to pull back and take things slowly was a good one. It takes quite a while to actually get to know someone well enough to get into a long term meaningful relationship, and regardless of how much you've each shared with each other, you don't actually know each other at all.

 

Taking things slow and genuinely getting to know each other over a longer period of time can't hurt anything.

[Timshel]

How long has she been a widow?

 

 

Sorry, reading back, I see two years. Every person is different, but I think you are right to hesitate.

 

As with any relationship, too much/too soon may be doubled for a widow/er.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Timshel

[salparadise]

Yes, there's no doubt that slowing it down was the right thing to do.

 

I don''t think I've ever met anyone that vulnerable before. She sent a long text this morning thanking me for taking care of her instead of taking advantage, and then went on to say that she's been crying and had talked to her sister about it, etc. I'm wonder about her overall emotional state. I don't get the feeling that she's unstable or anything, but she sure did let herself buy into a fantasy.

 

Now I'm going to have to manage things... try to let her cool off without hurting her feelings. I guess I need to friendzone her. I can't believe I'm saying that.

[carhill]

One date does not a lifetime commitment make.

 

A man can be a gentleman and socialize and control himself. I think....

 

Women like her are the ones who'll hold your hand and stroke your brow when you're on death's door and it's time to go.

 

Scary, isn't it?

 

Perhaps bad timing. If it wasn't you'd have asked her on a date to see if that vulnerability had any attraction to go along with it. As it is, it was all electrons. BTDT.

 

Thanks for sharing the story. Asked a few widows out over the decades, being into older women, but no takers; the difference was it was in-person stuff where mutual attraction rules. The physical was first. Different than OLD and other electronic means.

[GemmaUK]

Sal, you have surprised me - don't take this the wrong way please - it's not at all meant that way. but you have very much surprised me here.

 

You're seriously thinking more about her in this situation and it's a sensitive one for sure.

She is also, as you rightly say and are aware of vulnerable.

Maybe you two could meet, specify as friends, point out before and when you meet that online is never an indicator until you meet. All the stuff you know already.

 

This could be awkward, I feel it.Do you have a bit of time and patience to spare to lead her into what online dating is and can be?

 

It's a tough one as she seems to like you a lot...but a bit too previously.

I would rather she meet someone like yourself than some of the guys out there online in some ways.

You've kind of acquired yourself a responsibility here.

You can take it, what is your gut telling you though?

Gut feeling is almost always the est way to go.

[salparadise]

Sal, you have surprised me - don't take this the wrong way please - it's not at all meant that way. but you have very much surprised me here.

 

Oh? In what way? Have I not conveyed my tender-hearted nature in my posts before?

 

You're seriously thinking more about her in this situation and it's a sensitive one for sure.

She is also, as you rightly say and are aware of vulnerable.

Maybe you two could meet, specify as friends, point out before and when you meet that online is never an indicator until you meet. All the stuff you know already.

 

This could be awkward, I feel it.Do you have a bit of time and patience to spare to lead her into what online dating is and can be?

 

It's a tough one as she seems to like you a lot...but a bit too previously.

I would rather she meet someone like yourself than some of the guys out there online in some ways.

You've kind of acquired yourself a responsibility here.

You can take it, what is your gut telling you though?

Gut feeling is almost always the est way to go.

 

My gut feeling is telling me to let her go but do so very gently. I would be willing to meet, and we talked about that being a possibility at some point. But I don't know that I can really teach her much. She's a sharp cookie in the cognitive realm, but gosh is she ever vulnerable. I probably can't fix that for her. She knows it too. Her sister knows it and cautioned her.

 

So there are a couple of problems that just aren't solvable I don't believe. First, she is a fundamentalist Christian and I'm not (although I was raised that way and understand it). She's lived where she lives all her life, and she's near her children and grandchildren. I escaped from that God-forsaken place and don't intend to ever go back. Natives of that town have a unique, unmistakable dialect that's kind of endearing sometimes, and she has it in spades. It affects how I perceive her. I told her it wasn't a big deal, but I'm not so sure. These are all practical things.

 

The other problem is that I'm attracted to strong, smart, progressive, independent women with a caring, feeling personality. I thought at first that she fit that profile partly due to he having a PhD... but, when this thing turned into a situation where she became almost childlike with the vulnerability, well, it's disorienting and I'm not sure I could do that.

 

Like Carhill said, she's one of those who'd stand by you unconditionally. It is scary.

 

This stuff is supposed to naturally develop over time, many dates, and needs to be at least a little bit of a challenge. Having someone fall for you completely before you even meet... it feels like taking advantage of someone who is powerless, which feels incongruent. I'm not sure if I've described it very well, but I guess I've already written it off as a strange but interesting anomaly.

[carhill]

Oh, she's from your old stomping grounds that you left behind, and not local. Got it. I missed that the first time around. Yeah, if you're not considering going back there ever, not worth it. Good reason too. She'd understand that. Women like her, IME, like being rooted. Their community is their family. In her case, church too.

 

Anyway, good example of one style though, one worth watching for. They're out there. All depends if you're up for such a lifestyle. Some people find it boring. Different strokes.

[GemmaUK]

Oh? In what way? Have I not conveyed my tender-hearted nature in my posts before?

 

My gut feeling is telling me to let her go but do so very gently. I would be willing to meet, and we talked about that being a possibility at some point. But I don't know that I can really teach her much. She's a sharp cookie in the cognitive realm, but gosh is she ever vulnerable. I probably can't fix that for her. She knows it too. Her sister knows it and cautioned her.

 

So there are a couple of problems that just aren't solvable I don't believe. First, she is a fundamentalist Christian and I'm not (although I was raised that way and understand it). She's lived where she lives all her life, and she's near her children and grandchildren. I escaped from that God-forsaken place and don't intend to ever go back. Natives of that town have a unique, unmistakable dialect that's kind of endearing sometimes, and she has it in spades. It affects how I perceive her. I told her it wasn't a big deal, but I'm not so sure. These are all practical things.

 

The other problem is that I'm attracted to strong, smart, progressive, independent women with a caring, feeling personality. I thought at first that she fit that profile partly due to he having a PhD... but, when this thing turned into a situation where she became almost childlike with the vulnerability, well, it's disorienting and I'm not sure I could do that.

 

Like Carhill said, she's one of those who'd stand by you unconditionally. It is scary.

 

This stuff is supposed to naturally develop over time, many dates, and needs to be at least a little bit of a challenge. Having someone fall for you completely before you even meet... it feels like taking advantage of someone who is powerless, which feels incongruent. I'm not sure if I've described it very well, but I guess I've already written it off as a strange but interesting anomaly.

 

Then go with your gut.

It will do you no wrong.

Beware of spanning it out too long and accommodating too much.

Remember, it was her choice to try a dating site.

She is not your responsibility and she does have to find her own way.

She will.

[preraph]

She does need to be careful because there are guys on the internet who will talk, talk, talk and say everything a woman wants to hear, so it's probably just as well if you take her off the market, as it were, sooner rather than later. She just isn't someone who plays around, though. She thinks she might like you and is naively giving you all the benefit of the doubt. Another man might take shameless advantage of her, Ph.D. or not. Honestly, I'm surprised she hasn't just met someone at work in real life if she's this open. So you be a little cautious too. You know, there are catfish out there. She could be lying about everything and on the verge of asking you to send her money or something.

 

You need to Facetime or Skype her to be sure she's a living breathing person. Do that soon. You can get to know someone so much better and see if how they present themselves aligns with how they dress and look and their mannerisms. Take that step soon is my best advice. And then go from there. Good luck.

[salparadise]

Oh there's no question about her being real. She's as genuine as it gets. We've exchanged information that could not have been known without having lived in that place and had common experiences. She may be susceptible to scammers if they were really good, but I'm not. I can smell'em a mile away.

 

She texted me today and said the she missed me. We chatted a few minutes. I do wish she were checking all of my boxes, because I'm more than ready, and someone with that kind of ability to attach and commit would be amazing... especially after the experience with the ending of my previous relationship.

 

I'm just staying kind of neutral for the moment. I am not generating a fantasy in my mind. Who knows what the vibe would feel like in person. I also realize that I might not live up the the fantasy she's created.

 

Naturally, the validation is good for my confidence and feelings of worthiness. And having this connectedness is very positive even though I'm fully cognizant of the one-sided, limited nature of it.

 

All of this has had me thinking a lot about how some people are just ready to connect and some have so many defenses employed that no one short of a Clooney would be able to penetrate. There's a part of me that thinks, Sal, this could be your best and last opportunity... drop the defenses and be open to possibility.

Edited June 13, 2018 by salparadise

[Chilli]

Why don't you . l don't get the bs .

Can't be bothered reading back but l think you said she was like 75% of what you'd like or something , what you think your gonna get better than that, Any more than that and it'd be boring.

 

Why don;t you go meet her, just take it very very slow for her, talk about all that stuff together your saying here , it'll all reveal itself and come out anyway.

lf you forget all the rules and logic and bs , what are you feeling for her ?

lf it's really special then go meet her.

[GemmaUK]

Sal, the vibe I got from your first post was that she was lovely but there were several 'buts' mixed in there.

Almost like 'but' she might be diving in far too fast, 'but' I might need to push her back some, 'but' she might need a bit more looking after (in terms of her situation and it being only a couple of years ago and you being the first man she's talked to..etc). Plus all the other 'buts' which I can't be arsed to type!

 

But!!

Your last post, well I've changed my mind. I think you should meet her. I do think you need to keep a level of balance/realism between now and when you two can meet but you are the one who is already fully aware of that potentially being an issue with OLD, she isn't so you have been and would have to lead on that.

 

You don't have anything to lose but also, if nothing else at all then you can teach her a lot about that OLD world.

And who knows? It might just be that her OLD try out never ever leads to all those frustrations and time spent, bad dates etc that we all know so well.

 

If you decide to meet then you HAVE to either let us know how it goes on here or link to a new thread...pretty please?

[SevenCity]

Sal,

 

I didn’t read all the replies as I’m about to go to work but I just wanted to say if I was local I would roll up a news paper and smack you on the head!

 

WTF DUDE?!?!

 

You finally found what appears to be a good one and you laid out reasons why it won’t work?

 

Just go on a date with her and enjoy her company and see where it goes.

 

Seriously, you seem to have found a good one who wasn’t emotionally damaged by being pumped and dumped frequently on OLD and who you can likely mold into a fantastic, submissive, woman.

 

Please just go out with her. No one is saying you have to do a F and chuck but you would be a fool to not at least avail yourself of this opportunity.

 

The door is open, walk through it bro or someone else will.

[salparadise]

Why don;t you go meet her, just take it very very slow for her, talk about all that stuff together your saying here , it'll all reveal itself and come out anyway.

lf you forget all the rules and logic and bs , what are you feeling for her ?

lf it's really special then go meet her.

 

Sal, the vibe I got from your first post was that she was lovely but there were several 'buts' mixed in there.

Almost like 'but' she might be diving in far too fast, 'but' I might need to push her back some, 'but' she might need a bit more looking after (in terms of her situation and it being only a couple of years ago and you being the first man she's talked to..etc). Plus all the other 'buts' which I can't be arsed to type!

 

But!!

Your last post, well I've changed my mind. I think you should meet her. I do think you need to keep a level of balance/realism between now and when you two can meet but you are the one who is already fully aware of...

 

If you decide to meet then you HAVE to either let us know how it goes on here or link to a new thread...pretty please?

 

Sal,

 

...but I just wanted to say if I was local I would roll up a news paper and smack you on the head!

 

The door is open, walk through it bro or someone else will.

 

 

I hear you all loud and clear. I'm aware of these things and struggle with the dichotomy of being drawn to her in one sense, while also realizing that there are significant obstacles to seeing it as a great match.

 

We talked again today. She's doing all of the initiating even though she says she's old fashioned. In a previous conversation she asked if women ask men out these days, and said that she could never do that. She brought it up again today and said that she's stepping out of her comfort zone, and asking me out. So we are going to meet, but haven't decided on a time and place.

 

I asked her MBTI and she doesn't know, but said she will take the test. I suspect she's one of my preferred types (there are 3-4 that I consider optimal) but I could be wrong. We definitely connect, so I'd be surprised if she's not.

 

You know basically what's going on with me is that I'm holding back because I don't want to fall for someone with these dealbreakers. It's hugely positive on one side, and a few things I can't deal with on the other. She seems to be just ignoring the other... she's in because of the feeling of connection.

[Timshel]

Lol, you rascal. A fundamentalist christian widow. Lol.

 

 

Go for it and please keep us updated.

[GorillaTheater]

She brought it up again today and said that she's stepping out of her comfort zone, and asking me out. So we are going to meet, but haven't decided on a time and place.

 

 

I think that's a good move. The romantic in me hopes it works out, obstacles or not.

[SevenCity]

I hear you all loud and clear. I'm aware of these things and struggle with the dichotomy of being drawn to her in one sense, while also realizing that there are significant obstacles to seeing it as a great match.

 

We talked again today. She's doing all of the initiating even though she says she's old fashioned. In a previous conversation she asked if women ask men out these days, and said that she could never do that. She brought it up again today and said that she's stepping out of her comfort zone, and asking me out. So we are going to meet, but haven't decided on a time and place.

 

I asked her MBTI and she doesn't know, but said she will take the test. I suspect she's one of my preferred types (there are 3-4 that I consider optimal) but I could be wrong. We definitely connect, so I'd be surprised if she's not.

 

You know basically what's going on with me is that I'm holding back because I don't want to fall for someone with these dealbreakers. It's hugely positive on one side, and a few things I can't deal with on the other. She seems to be just ignoring the other... she's in because of the feeling of connection.

 

The reality is everyone has issues. Dealbreakers can be ignored with the right person.

[salparadise]

Well, we met a week ago. We each drove about half way and went for a walk and had lunch at a little cafe. We had a nice time and never ran out of interesting things to talk about.

 

Physical attraction... apparently a bit one-sided in that respect too. Nothing really changed as a result of the meeting. She says she loves me, but I'm just not there. I really like her, I love the feeling of connection and knowing that someone gives a damn that I exist, I feel affectionate and engaged... but I just don't get the gotta-jump-her-bones feeling.

 

So an interesting thing happened after we met. After her husband died she sold her house and bought one right across the street from her two sons... yup, the sons live next door and she's directly across the street. Both sons are married with young children. She had confided in one of her daughters-in-law that she had met someone online. They all have the attitude that online is not a legitimate way to meet, and especially not for their mother, and they told her.

 

When the day came that we were to meet she told them that she was going shopping at a mall an hour away. They put two and two together and figured out that something was up. When she got home the two sons confronted and shamed her and made her feel awful. The son's wives are a little more open-minded, but not much. One of the DIL had spilled the beans in the first place or the sons would never have guessed.

 

I reassured her that she had done nothing wrong and it was their emotions and inability to envision their mother as anything other than a widowed tribute to their father that was driving the criticism and control. They think they have her best interest at heart, but treated her like a misbehaving child. She understands, but it doesn't lessen the hurt or change the situation. She's effectively on a short leash and not free to live life on her own terms. She's healthy, vibrant and a sharp cookie. She has returned to work. She's going to have to assert her independence, which may include moving, but she naturally doesn't want to cause discord or alienate her family. She has also been serving as the grandmother on call 24/7. The family is very interdependent, and the sons can't see it any other way. So even if I were ready to be in a relatioinship, the situation would not allow it without a bunch of family drama on her end.

 

She's still convinced she's in love with me, and I like her a lot but in a limited way. We talked about possibilities and the situational constraints. It doesn't change the way she feels. She has basically said that she'd do whatever it takes if I wanted her to. I'm just not there. I might have been able to see it if this had developed normally, but it feels strange and unreal to me... as if her feelings couldn't possibly be more than teenager-like infatuation. We agreed to go two days without talking, minimal texting. She said it was hard for her but she managed. For me it felt like a huge relief to not be constantly talking or texting. We discussed trying to be just friends because a) I'm not at the same place, and b) her family situation won't allow more. I don't think she can do it though.

 

I hate to cut her off cold, but this just can't go on indefinitely. It's complicated.

[GemmaUK]

We couldn't possibly have known about the family situation but that she says she is in love already and willing to do anything was the vibe I got initially which is why I wrote my first post.

 

You can;'t possibly progress this at any rate that is going to just be 'getting to know' each other more. You're nowhere near the same page as her.

She isn't in love, she is infatuated and I think maybe sees you as an escape route to a life of her own.

 

The attention is nice, or was but it sounds like she is trying to push things way too fast - hence your sense of relief at backing off for a couple of days.

 

her family are doing what they think is best but she is being controlled by them and it can be easy to become controlling (and suffocating) to someone new when a person has experienced it.

 

You write well, have intelligence, can have real conversations so you have shown up as seeming to be Mr Perfect. Even though she hasn't 'chatted' with any other guys since she lost her husband, believe me she knows that there are guys out there of her age who really can't write well or have good conversations.

Trouble is you can see what can happen from getting into something too fast, love bombing, too fast & intense and things can end the way they start.

 

She is in a vulnerable position but needs to break out on the family situation and gain back her confidence before getting into something.

 

This is a time you need to trust your gut - it's telling you what you already really know.

[salparadise]

Yea, the family backlash was a surprise to her. I had cautioned her though as I've seen it before... adult children can see it as betrayal. Her sons continue to make an issue of it. She told me about it again yesterday. She was ambivalent about telling me because she's aware that it's another serious obstacle, but I could tell something was wrong and she spilled it when I asked.

 

I know that I'm going to have to shut this down somehow, and that's probably going to mean NC, but it's difficult. I don't want to hurt her, and I enjoy the companionship and connection aspects... I just don't feel it romantically. She says that I'm protecting my heart because I got burned a year ago and I'm not completely over it, but I don't think that's it. I also think she's idealizing and infatuating but am hesitant to invalidate what she believes she feels because it's very real to her and that would be wrong.

 

Many of her attributes are qualities that I really-really want in a partner, and she's the diametrical opposite of my previous girlfriend in ways that matter. But, the sexual chemistry is just not there and I can't overlook that. I don't want to say that to her in so many words either because I know it will hurt.

[salparadise]

We had the talk that I've been dreading. It was hard for both, but especially for her. We didn't mean to get into it, but the conversation evolved that way and we didn't rug-sweep it. I wish there was more I could do to assuage her pain, but I said everything with as much kindness and respect as I knew how. I know it was right but still feel kind of guilty for not being able to make her dream come true. I'll move on soon, it will take time for her.