SummerDreams Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 To be truthful, she didn't pull a "bait and switch". Only recently I have started looking into her mental issues. I always underplayed the importance of her issues, because she always acted normally. But I'm now convinced that her upbringing issues (as confirmed by her) and her OCD (Pure O, intrusive thoughts) have played a massive role in her general behaviour in the last 15 years, when her mental state deteriorated. Unfortunately, one of the traits of Pure O is hiding the issue. This is what she did. She does't want to go to therapy (CBT + ERP) because she doesn't want to confront her ghosts. I respect that, but it's had a massive impact on our marriage and our intimacy. An yes, I did get angry because she didn't communicate all of this to me. And I can't blame her, really, because she is ill and she is protecting herself. The fact that she is refusing therapy leaves me no option. She is not invested in our marriage and doesn't really care about me. Fair enough. I will have to deal with it. So it seems to me you divorced her because she had mental problems that she didn't want to face or solve. Refusing sex was a symptom of her problems. Do you admit then that you walked when things got ugly? That you didn't keep "for better or for worse"? Because what you say here is that you left her cause she stopped having sex with you when this is not the case. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 Once that love bubble is burst, it my be difficult if not impossible to get it back, no matter how "nice" he then may be. I agree with all of this and I know I contributed to the failure of our marriage. I could have reacted differently, but I don't think it would have changed anything. She told me lately that her withdrawal of sex in the last couple of years would have probably happened anyway. I also agree with my wife's blame-split of 50/50. Unfortunately, we can't wind the clock back and she says it's too late. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 Because what you say here is that you left her cause she stopped having sex with you when this is not the case. The case is very simple: despite not wanting to fix her issues, we compromised and stayed together (10 years ago). We were having sex occasionally. About 2 years ago, she unilaterally withdrew sex from the equation, without consulting me. When I asked her why, she said it was several things: menopause, her upbringing issues, depression, empty nest syndrome. Also, when pressed, she said she didn't love me and stayed with me because of the children. She will never go to therapy and this is it. Take it or leave it. You are asking me to stay with a person who is not invested in our marriage and doesn't love me? I love her, but it doesn't mean anything to her. I recognise that I might have contributed to her falling out of love with me, because of my perceived anger, but why is it always about her needs and never about mine? I get that she is protecting herself, I get her defence mechanism and that her issues come first, but there is absolutely no room left for me. I'm not a martyr. I need a bit of love and care too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Many men dismiss anger in this way but often there is no way back from anger. And many women dismiss the other 99% that husband might be bringing to the family and relationship. No woman should be subject to abuse, but people - wives included - can get irritated and angry on occasion. In this case, I’d guess Giotto’s angst over the situation gave his wife the out she was looking for... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 Love may have died that day, she maybe braved it out for the kids, the family... She did exactly that. But can I just say that my anger wasn't constant at all? It's not like I terrified her day after day. But I understand that a few times is enough to create insecurity and fear. Unfortunately, I can't undo that. I know she doesn't really trust me, despite being a completely different man now. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 She did exactly that. But can I just say that my anger wasn't constant at all? It's not like I terrified her day after day. But I understand that a few times is enough to create insecurity and fear. It doesn't need to be constant. Once may be enough. Once she feels unsafe, it may be difficult to feel completely safe again. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 In this case, I’d guess Giotto’s angst over the situation gave his wife the out she was looking for... That is not necessarily true... you are minimising the effect bringing anger to a marriage can bring.. Men can often laugh off anger in a woman, they do not feel scared or threatened, a woman can be deeply shaken by observing anger directed at her by her spouse, her supposed "protector". Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 In this case, I’d guess Giotto’s angst over the situation gave his wife the out she was looking for... Mr. Lucky This is entirely possible. She's admitted that she has the tendency to distrust me instinctively, but it's not a rational fear. I don't think it's her fault. She can't help it. I wish I knew all of this many years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 Once she feels unsafe, it may be difficult to feel completely safe again. Yes, but see above. I think her fear became quite irrational. She's admitted it. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I think her fear became quite irrational. She's admitted it. ... to the guy she is scared of... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 ... to the guy she is scared of... She has no reason to be afraid of me now... it's been over 10 years. I'm a different man and she knows this... for some reason, she can't get over her (now) irrational fear. She's told me. Do you think she is telling me this because she is still scared? Why? We are separated, it's not like she has to put up with me anymore... it just doesn't make sense. I admit it was the wrong thing getting angry, but I think she's using this now to justify her decision to reject me sexually, knowing that it would be a deal break for me. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I don't know, but it is in many woman's natures to want placate and not rock the boat. Also you say she thinks she is fat and ugly... Few women with that mindset want sex, as to have good sex, one needs to have a healthy ego and be body confident... Without confidence she feels old, fat and foolish... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 Also you say she thinks she is fat and ugly... Few women with that mindset want sex, as to have good sex, one needs to have a healthy ego and be body confident... Without confidence she feels old, fat and foolish... I know this is a reason why she is depressed... I told her many times it doesn't matter to me, but she doesn't listen to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Marc878 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 And all this hypothesis changes what? Nothing that I see. She withdraws from the marriage and you are supposed to accept life on her terms. I'm sure she's fine with that. It's called cake eating. These threads come up a lot. It's not uncommon. What is common is nothing ever changes for the most part. You can read all the books, talk, do extra work and it just stays the same. Living on hopium won't get you a thing. Except more of the same. You don't have a true marriage just a roomate type deal. Stay and be happy as a martyr or not. Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 She withdraws from the marriage and you are supposed to accept life on her terms. I'm sure she's fine with that. It's called cake eating. Did you notice that she is psychologically sick? He has every right to leave but he has to accept that he didn't stay "for better or for worse". His vows were null and void. What he should have done in my opinion is try harder to notice his wife's problems. He should have known that a person who likes to have sex regularly for 10 years doesn't just stop one day. There was something deeper and he neglected to find it. In the contrary he made it worse with his anger. And even though his wife tried to overcome these problems alone and stay for the kids, he still blames her for quitting sex. I mean, a stranger would have cared more for this woman. If I was her friend I would spend hours and hours to convince her to visit a therapist. What did her H do? Bully her to have sex with her. Jesus.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 She withdraws from the marriage and you are supposed to accept life on her terms. I'm sure she's fine with that. It's called cake eating. Some of the female friends I've spoken to seem to think that I should suck it up and stay in a sexless marriage forever. They are more or less my wife's age, so I guess sex is not important to them either, which seem to confirm Elaine's statement. What I find difficult to accept is that I have to give up an important (for me) part of the marriage, but my wife is not prepared to do anything for the marriage. Just take pills... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 What he should have done in my opinion is try harder to notice his wife's problems. He should have known that a person who likes to have sex regularly for 10 years doesn't just stop one day. I did try very hard, but it's difficult when you hit a concrete wall, every time. This is a classic manifestation of intrusive thoughts. How am I suppose to know this? I know now. Also, she didn't stop having sex all of a sudden. It started getting less frequent with time. There was something deeper and he neglected to find it. In the contrary he made it worse with his anger. I didn't neglect to find it, I tried very hard, but she would deny there was anything wrong, when it was clear there was. So, at the end, I got angry. Yes, I did. I regret it, but it was a natural reaction when you feel your wife is pushing you away and refuses to tell you why. And even though his wife tried to overcome these problems alone and stay for the kids, he still blames her for quitting sex. I didn't blame her for quitting sex, see below. If I was her friend I would spend hours and hours to convince her to visit a therapist. What did her H do? Bully her to have sex with her. Jesus.... This is exactly what I did. I tried to convince her to go to therapy. She agreed, we got back together and then she said she wouldn't go. So, I gave up. And I didn't bully her to have sex with me. Wgen we got back together, we compromised to twice a month, hardly a porn star frequency... but, apparently, I ruined everything when I got angry in very frustrating and depressing circumstances for me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 I don't blame my wife for anything. She wasn't well and she was protecting herself, also hiding it from me. I didn't know. Unfortunately, she has no capacity left for me. She is blaming me, like I'm supposed to have this special power of being able to read her mind. The root of the problem is her issues, I made it worse with my reaction. Link to post Share on other sites
Marc878 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Marriage is supposed to be for two. Your sexless wife owns part of that too. You want to be the bad guy in all of this go ahead. If it helps you to justify staying in this but it'll change nothing. You seem to react instead of act. All that gets you is mor of the same. Your wife's unwillingness to do anything in this situation tells me she doesn't care about you other than not wanting to lose her meal ticket and your checkbook, security. Maybe you should step back quit reacting and take a hood look at this if you haven't. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 3, 2019 Author Share Posted October 3, 2019 Marriage is supposed to be for two. Your sexless wife owns part of that too. Her unwillingness to take part in the marriage and commit to it by going to therapy is a clear indication that she doesn't care. As I said, it's not entirely her fault. In fact, I get it. But she is not committed and I can't stay in a marriage like this. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Ok, but how much awareness and insight does a mentally ill person actually have. Depressed people tend to not care, they cannot care, they lose the capacity to care. Depression signs. Lacking energy or feeling tired Feeling exhausted all the time Experiencing 'brain fog', find it hard to think clearly Finding it hard to concentrate Feeling restless and agitated Feeling tearful, wanting to cry all the time Not wanting to talk to or be with people Not wanting to do things you usually enjoy Using alcohol or drugs to cope with feelings Finding it hard to cope with everyday things and tasks Experiencing 'burn out' How can ^that person, maintain a healthy marriage? Many have no motivation for therapy either, they feel worthless and hopeless... She also has OCD... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 Ok, but how much awareness and insight does a mentally ill person actually have. Depressed people tend to not care, they cannot care, they lose the capacity to care. How can ^that person, maintain a healthy marriage? Many have no motivation for therapy either, they feel worthless and hopeless... She also has OCD... Correct, mostly. But she has awareness and insight. She is taking a hefty dose of anti-depressants for her depression, but pills alone won't cure her OCD, which is partially responsible for her depression. They often go hand in hand. I get she doesn't want to confront her ghosts, but where does it leave me? I will be here getting depressed like her. This story has been dragging and repeating itself for a few years now. There is no light at the end of the tunnel, unfortunately. Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 I get she doesn't want to confront her ghosts, but where does it leave me? I will be here getting depressed like her. This is the meaning of "for better or for worse". That you don't only stay for the good times (which is easy cause everyone wants to be there for the good times) but you stay for the bad times as well. Yes you will probably be miserable and depressed like her but this is what you signed up for when you chose to get married to her (and you claim you love her). You clearly love yourself more than her and it's understandable but it would be nice to admit that you left her because you didn't want to bother anymore trying to help her and not because she stopped having sex with you. She has to know it because she has to know that her H wasn't the man she thought she married so she moves on. She needs to know her marriage was a failure so she faces this fact and moves on. I would like to know if I were her. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 She has to know it because she has to know that her H wasn't the man she thought she married She is not the woman I married either. I have a simple question for you. What would you do if you knew there was a perfectly viable "cure" for your partner's issue, but your partner refused to take part making your life miserable and the marriage a living hell? Showing that he/she is not committed to the marriage and to you? Would you still stay? Honest answer, please... Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 She is not the woman I married either. I have a simple question for you. What would you do if you knew there was a perfectly viable "cure" for your partner's issue, but your partner refused to take part making your life miserable and the marriage a living hell? Showing that he/she is not committed to the marriage and to you? Would you still stay? Honest answer, please... It seems you don't understand the concept of a mental illness. You keep repeating that she is not committed to the marriage or you while the correct thing to say is she doesn't make a decision, she is not capable to make such a decision due to her illness. It's like you asking a drug addict to make decisions and be responsible for their actions. She doesn't betray you, she is driven by the illness. I suggest you research some things for your wife's illness. Other than that, my H did and still does have a kind of depression and we are together for 10 years. I did my best to make him go to a therapist and he was refusing for years, but I did insist a lot with every way possible and I finally convinced him. He did go to a therapist and he was helped for some time until he had to stop with this particular therapist. He was better for a while but recently I feel he could get some more help and I am trying to convince him to start again with this same therapist. I'm not pushing him, I'm trying to make him realize that it will be good for him. Yes sometimes things are bad, there are days I am miserable and I am wondering why I'm staying and ruining my own self, but I never really considered leaving him, he is a very good man, we love each other, we have a life together and I choose every day to stay with him and fight these problems because this is what people who love each other do. Simple as that. And we have no kids so it's really easy for me to just leave. But I have committed to this relationship and I know that I will feel awful with myself if I am the reason to lose him. No relationship is ideal. I'm not saying that everyone has to be like me and I can't know how much you suffer. But I do want you to admit that you didn't keep "for better or for worse" for your own reasons. She should know that and maybe she'll have a closure. Could you do that? Could you tell her that the reason you left was not sex but rather that you were not capable or strong enough to deal with her mental illness? Maybe this will wake her up and give her the strength to do something. Link to post Share on other sites
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