How could she?

[LivingWaterPlease]

I'm dating a classmate I reconnected with after decades of not seeing each other.

 

Last week his brother, Jack, was shot dead in his own home. From the scene, it appears to have been suicide. His wife, Patty, was the only person present in the house at the time. She claims they watched netflix, then had an argument right before he went to their room and she heard a shot. Then she claims she went to their bedroom and found him dead on the floor.

 

Jack was a highly-educated medical professional and had caught his associates (also medical profession) in a financially fraudulent scheme awhile back (not sure how long ago, seems like about a year or two). At that time he left the practice and went out on his own. Since that time he has told at least several people that he has felt threatened by them and there are facts that would seem to indicate he was not being paranoid about his concern they may do something nefarious to him.

 

He also had told several different people if anything happened to him he wanted them to know that he didn't do it to himself. He was the only brother of my bf and told him many times over the last months he felt his former associates may do him in and that he definitely would never do anything to hurt himself.

 

Jack also suspected Patty of having an affair with one of the men in the medical group he'd formerly been associated with and also with other men. But she denies being unfaithful ever. He was contemplating getting a PI to check on his wife before he was shot.

 

From all he'd told his brother about the reasons he was suspicious of his wife being unfaithful, imo, it sounds as if she was indeed unfaithful.

 

The police are investigating the situation but from their attitude it seems they have already decided it was a suicide rather than a murder. However, this happened in a small town and the head police detective is very close friends with one of the associates in the medical group my bf's brother had been with and suspected of both an affair with Patty and of illegal activity.

 

My bf believes his brother was murdered. It seems to me there is at least a good possibility of it being so.

 

After Jack was shot dead, Patty called the police who came over to investigate the scene. After they left she stayed at the house alone which includes sleeping there. After several days her grown children arrived from out-of-town and are now staying with her at the house until the funeral, I believe.

 

My bf is processing this with me each day and I'm glad to listen. One thing that really troubles me, though (besides the fact that Jack is dead), is that Patty stayed at the house the night of Jack's death. This, after discovering him in a mess from a bullet wound to his head on their bedroom floor.

 

It is hard for me to imagine anyone could sleep in a house, especially alone, where someone, especially one's husband, had just killed himself a few hours earlier.

 

My question is to reader's of this post, "Do you think you could sleep in a house alone or with others present where someone had just committed suicide a few hours earlier?

 

I know people handle grief differently but it just seems preposterous to me that anyone who is of normal emotional and/or mental capacity could spend the night in a house their spouse had just been killed in.

Edited July 16, 2018 by LivingWaterPlease

[Mr. Lucky]

Hard to predict how anyone would react under those circumstances. Maybe staying there made her feel closer to him, no way of knowing.

 

It's equally challenging predicting suicide. Perhaps the business and personal stress was enough to push your BF's brother over the edge. With this many unanswered questions, has your BF considered hiring an investigator to look into the death?

 

Mr. Lucky

[LivingWaterPlease]

Thank you for that perspective (Patty possibly feeling closer to Jack by staying there) which I hadn't thought of, Mr. Lucky.

 

Bf has been trying to decide how to proceed and did contact the state bureau of investigation. They told him to deal with the local police in which, of course, the lead investigator is close friends with someone who could be culpable of possible murder.

 

I will suggest to him that he should possibly hire an investigator.

 

To complicate matters, my bf, Jack and two other siblings were involved in an acrimonious process of settling the estate of their late parents. The other three siblings were at each others' throats, so to speak.

 

So, the estate must still be settled amidst this recent tragedy. My bf is the executor of the will and he is the only one who gets along with the other, now, two remaining siblings.

 

As an aside the day my bf told me his brother (they were close) had been shot I was amazed at how he continued life as if nothing had happened, talking, laughing about unrelated things, and asking me my preferences about gifts he wanted to order, and did, for me that very day. I thought at the time he was in shock. This continued for days. I wrote that the brother had been dead a week but it's actually been ten days.

 

It has just been the past couple of days that bf has seemingly begun to grieve. He is such a good man and so was his brother. Just both really good good men. It is such a tragedy that Jack was killed. He was just a stellar person. Such a great loss!

 

I am talking with my bf now all day and into the night to support him. We are LD, but I am his only support. Every one of the family members has always depended on him so he must be strong for them all. The widow has young adult unmarried children who I believe will look to him now for leadership.

 

Thank you so much for your post. I hope to process my own feelings about it all here as when I talk with bf I put mine aside and try to concentrate on helping him sort through his own feelings.

[PhillyLibertyBelle]

LW

 

My condolences to you and BF and his family. What a terrible shock. I personally could not do what she is doing.

 

What an angel you are for standing by and being a constant support.

 

I’m sorry for all that is happening and if there is a concern of foul play and the funds can support a private investigator I would pursue that route.

 

From experience what I can say is that many suicides are a completely impulsive action, particularly where there is a gun involved. No matter what. Your BF has lost a brother, and his family too and it’s is likely that your BF will be asking himself “why” hundreds of times each day. Using faith perhaps you can help him to not ask himself the why.. to turn that over into His hands.

 

I’ll be praying for you all.

[thefooloftheyear]

Hmmm...Sounds like an episode of "Forensic Files"....Did she recently up his life insurance benefit?

 

Anyway, while I wouldn't consider myself queasy about things, I thin I am on the same page as you are...Id probably stay with family until things get settled..

 

And I would probably sell the house and never set foot in it again...Having said that. everyone deals with this stuff differently ...There maybe nothing out of line, just that she doesn't have the same weird feeling about it as you or I would....

 

TFY

[BluesPower]

Think about it this way...

 

You/BF may never know what happened.

 

But let's just say that this happened:

 

1) The argument was about her affair that she admitted to. It was an affair with THE guy that is at the forefront of financial malfeasance.

 

2) So he found out that not only was she unfaithful for sure, and maybe multiple, but she was involved in the crime.

 

3) He would not be the first man that killed himself upon finding out about his wife's infidelity.

 

My GF's bff's son killed himself in a situation like this.

 

This is a complete guess, but it does happen...

[LivingWaterPlease]

LW

 

My condolences to you and BF and his family. What a terrible shock. I personally could not do what she is doing.

 

What an angel you are for standing by and being a constant support.

 

I’m sorry for all that is happening and if there is a concern of foul play and the funds can support a private investigator I would pursue that route.

 

From experience what I can say is that many suicides are a completely impulsive action, particularly where there is a gun involved. No matter what. Your BF has lost a brother, and his family too and it’s is likely that your BF will be asking himself “why” hundreds of times each day. Using faith perhaps you can help him to not ask himself the why.. to turn that over into His hands.

 

I’ll be praying for you all.

 

Thank you for your response, your prayers and your perspective, Belle. Yes, funds are available for an investigator and I'll suggest that today.

 

I can imagine the family will be asking "why" hundreds of times a day as you suggested they may. My bf is going over the facts and possibilities with me all day every day (while continuing work obligations, etc) trying to figure some things out. He and his brother had an honest relationship. He tells me his brother looked him in the eye and said he would never do anything to himself and if something happened to him, it was not self inflicted. He had also told at least two other people that. But, he suspected he was a target. There are facts I haven't posted as they are complex and would also identify the situation.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Hmmm...Sounds like an episode of "Forensic Files"....Did she recently up his life insurance benefit?

 

Anyway, while I wouldn't consider myself queasy about things, I thin I am on the same page as you are...Id probably stay with family until things get settled..

 

And I would probably sell the house and never set foot in it again...Having said that. everyone deals with this stuff differently ...There maybe nothing out of line, just that she doesn't have the same weird feeling about it as you or I would....

 

TFY

 

Your post resonates with me, TFY. Think I would do the same about the house. Stay with family and then sell it. But, as you say, everyone deals with this stuff differently so am trying to keep an open mind about her.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Think about it this way...

 

You/BF may never know what happened.

 

But let's just say that this happened:

 

1) The argument was about her affair that she admitted to. It was an affair with THE guy that is at the forefront of financial malfeasance.

 

2) So he found out that not only was she unfaithful for sure, and maybe multiple, but she was involved in the crime.

 

3) He would not be the first man that killed himself upon finding out about his wife's infidelity.

 

My GF's bff's son killed himself in a situation like this.

 

This is a complete guess, but it does happen...

 

So sorry to hear about your bf's bff's son, Blues.

 

Yes, I can imagine in such a scenario as you described a person may impulsively shoot themselves.

 

I kind of thought she may have revealed some information about his suspicions that affected him severely and he reacted to it but my bf is firm that his brother would never do that. I also believe when pushed to the edge, though, people can do things impulsively they ordinarily wouldn't think they'd do.

 

Editing this to respond to your suggestion that bf may never know what happened. True, and trying to figure it out is on his mind a lot. So, it's on mine, too, and guess that's why I'm posting about Patty staying in the house alone that night after the incident. It's so odd to me and doesn't seem to fit in with any scenario that could have happened.

Edited July 16, 2018 by LivingWaterPlease

[Mr. Lucky]

To complicate matters, my bf, Jack and two other siblings were involved in an acrimonious process of settling the estate of their late parents. The other three siblings were at each others' throats, so to speak.

 

Even more layers of complication in terms of motive and opportunity.

 

Is your BF working with an attorney in settling the estate? He may be able to refer him to a good investigator who specializes in these things...

 

Mr. Lucky

[somanymistakes]

People behave very strangely at times. And there are far too many stories about miscarriages of justice where innocent people (usually women) are blamed for crimes SOLELY because they did not act as upset as some other random person thought they should. ('dingoes ate my baby' is one of the famous cases)

 

I have no idea how I would behave. On the one hand, it would be highly upsetting and gross to be in the house where something that messy had just happened. On the other hand, if that's my home, and I'm in shock and don't know what to do, where else would I go?

 

I don't have family nearby. I'm probably not competent to drive, not after something like that. Could I manage to make arrangements for a hotel, a taxi, food delivery, etc? No, probably not.

 

I think it would be easier to hole up in a familiar room while trying to process what's just happened than it would be to try and find somewhere else to go.

 

I might try to contact friends and see if anyone could come over to help me, then leave it up to them what to do next.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Even more layers of complication in terms of motive and opportunity.

 

Is your BF working with an attorney in settling the estate? He may be able to refer him to a good investigator who specializes in these things...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Yes, attorneys are involved representing various siblings. The legal proceedings with the estate are in a different state which is a distance from the one the death occurred in. But, it's a good idea. Thanks for helping think this through.

 

Yes, more layers of complications, for sure.

[LivingWaterPlease]

People behave very strangely at times. And there are far too many stories about miscarriages of justice where innocent people (usually women) are blamed for crimes SOLELY because they did not act as upset as some other random person thought they should. ('dingoes ate my baby' is one of the famous cases)

 

I have no idea how I would behave. On the one hand, it would be highly upsetting and gross to be in the house where something that messy had just happened. On the other hand, if that's my home, and I'm in shock and don't know what to do, where else would I go?

 

I don't have family nearby. I'm probably not competent to drive, not after something like that. Could I manage to make arrangements for a hotel, a taxi, food delivery, etc? No, probably not.

 

I think it would be easier to hole up in a familiar room while trying to process what's just happened than it would be to try and find somewhere else to go.

 

I might try to contact friends and see if anyone could come over to help me, then leave it up to them what to do next.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the dingo/baby case and you're right! Innocent people sometimes get blamed.

 

Patty's parents live fifty miles away and they're on great terms. They were also well loved by the deceased. Patty will probably move in with them at some point, I would think. We'll see.

 

If it was murder, the wife in this case is not the one I'd suspect but then what do I know? I believe she'd need to be complicit, though, in some sense. Again, what do I know? Just am living this many of my waking hours so nice to be able to vent and process.

[preraph]

Well, yes, people handle things differently. She might have wanted to be in her home for comfort. There is just no telling.

 

If you feel the police are getting all the information that you know about, then stay out of it. But if you feel no one is telling them everything, then you go talk to the police and just be very factual and tell them what you have heard so they will know more what questions to ask and to whom. You don't have to outright accuse anyone at all. Avoid that. But do tell them the rumors, the business part you've heard about.

 

You know, it may be someone did it, but it's also a pretty common reason that a businessman kills himself when he's afraid some dirty dealings on his own part may come to light. So it could be either way. Don't make any assumptions.

 

If you are sure about the investigator having this conflict of interest, then you need to call the chief of this division, you will likely have to leave a message, but just tell him "Someone told me he might know one of the parties being investigated, and I just want to be sure the investigator doesn't have a conflict of interest." He can put someone else on it. You can find out who the investigating officer is and just confirm it by calling the phone number and asking whoever answers to find out for you. It might turn out he's not even the one in charge.

 

Again, if you feel all the info has already been put out there, just give support but stay out of it. And remember that it is the medical examiner who calls whether it was suicide or not, not the lead investigator. They can generally tell by forensics, splatter, powder residue, how close the gun was to the person, whether the person is left or right handed, prints, etc.

Edited July 17, 2018 by preraph

[LivingWaterPlease]

Well, yes, people handle things differently. She might have wanted to be in her home for comfort. There is just no telling.

 

If you feel the police are getting all the information that you know about, then stay out of it. But if you feel no one is telling them everything, then you go talk to the police and just be very factual and tell them what you have heard so they will know more what questions to ask and to whom. You don't have to outright accuse anyone at all. Avoid that. But do tell them the rumors, the business part you've heard about.

 

You know, it may be someone did it, but it's also a pretty common reason that a businessman kills himself when he's afraid some dirty dealings on his own part may come to light. So it could be either way. Don't make any assumptions.

 

If you are sure about the investigator having this conflict of interest, then you need to call the chief of this division, you will likely have to leave a message, but just tell him "Someone told me he might know one of the parties being investigated, and I just want to be sure the investigator doesn't have a conflict of interest." He can put someone else on it. You can find out who the investigating officer is and just confirm it by calling the phone number and asking whoever answers to find out for you. It might turn out he's not even the one in charge.

 

Again, if you feel all the info has already been put out there, just give support but stay out of it. And remember that it is the medical examiner who calls whether it was suicide or not, not the lead investigator. They can generally tell by forensics, splatter, powder residue, how close the gun was to the person, whether the person is left or right handed, prints, etc.

 

Thank you, preraph, for this valuable information. I'll pass it on to bf and am sure he'll appreciate it. I didn't realize it was the medical examiner who calls whether it's suicide or not. So, if a person kills another they really can't run away and put the gun in the dead person's hand because there is no powder residue on it?

 

This is a little far fetched but what if a person holds a gun to someone else's head and puts the victim's hand on it right before the trigger is pulled? Then it would look like suicide but not be.

[PhillyLibertyBelle]

Thank you, preraph, for this valuable information. I'll pass it on to bf and am sure he'll appreciate it. I didn't realize it was the medical examiner who calls whether it's suicide or not. So, if a person kills another they really can't run away and put the gun in the dead person's hand because there is no powder residue on it?

 

This is a little far fetched but what if a person holds a gun to someone else's head and puts the victim's hand on it right before the trigger is pulled? Then it would look like suicide but not be.

 

Preraph has good advice in the last scenario you propose, your brother in law would have screamed or made a ruckus. If they put his finger on the trigger they would have had to put theirs on top of his because no one would pull the trigger themselves and the angle of the shot would be wrong and the coroner will know this.

Praying for you.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Preraph has good advice in the last scenario you propose, your brother in law would have screamed or made a ruckus. If they put his finger on the trigger they would have had to put theirs on top of his because no one would pull the trigger themselves and the angle of the shot would be wrong and the coroner will know this.

Praying for you.

 

Thanks for this information and for your prayers, too, Belle! They're very much appreciated!

[preraph]

Thank you, preraph, for this valuable information. I'll pass it on to bf and am sure he'll appreciate it. I didn't realize it was the medical examiner who calls whether it's suicide or not. So, if a person kills another they really can't run away and put the gun in the dead person's hand because there is no powder residue on it?

 

This is a little far fetched but what if a person holds a gun to someone else's head and puts the victim's hand on it right before the trigger is pulled? Then it would look like suicide but not be.

 

Forensics are so evolved on this that usually they can tell what happened. If someone forced a person's hand on it, there should be signs of a struggle, some bruising or something. The blood splatter is telling. So if they staged a suicide, for example, sitting down, then they'd have to have the guy sitting down while they forced him to hold the gun and fire it. There could still be two DNAs on the gun. There could be a splatter that indicated a jerk during firing. Splatter tells them everything they need to know about what position the deceased is in and what position the gun was in when it shot them, down to how far away, the angle, etc. Powder residue or lack thereof help determine who held the gun and also how far away. Like if someone held the gun 2 feet from his face, likely his face wouldn't wouldn't look the same if he held the gun to his own head. It's a science. Let them do their work, but just be sure you don't have some info the police could use, because it is true that unless they have some reason to think it could be other than suicide, they may not run all those tests to find out, so someone has to give them reason to run those tests, doubt that it's suicide, and if no one has, then someone needs to. Otherwise, they will just say the wife thinks he killed himself and it looks like he did.

 

So give them info about those work enemies if they don't have that already or if you don't know if she told them all that or think she might have left things out.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Thank you very much, preraph. I'm sharing this with bf now. Very valuable info and if you think of anything else please advise.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Update: BF talked with sheriff today who told him that whenever there's no note and only one other person in the house, they always investigate as to whether it's a suicide or not. I hadn't thought of that aspect.

 

Bf lives over six hundred miles from me and is heading to my city to stay for a week (8 days). The "funeral" will be this weekend and is a three-hour-drive from my home.

 

Patty has decided not to have a funeral in favor of just having a social gathering in the church. No arrangements have been made for a homily as Patty doesn't want the gathering to be spiritual, though Jack was a spiritual man. Jack's family tradition would have included a funeral with a minister speaking and that would have meant a lot to bf (and other family members) who has told me he feels that would have been more respectful to his brother.

 

There has been no provision made for extended family to meet with the widow and her children at any other time than at the social gathering in the church.

 

Bf is not exactly bf anymore as we had broken up two days before he contacted me to let me know his brother had just been shot. Since he is a good man whom I've always admired I'm sticking with him through this time. I don't plan on attending the "funeral" since it's a distance away and because I don't know his family. He has a small window of time to be with them and it seems to me it'll be nice for him to interact with them without me there.

 

I know this last paragraph isn't pertinent to the original intent of the thread but I'm using the thread to process.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Bf left for his brother's funeral yesterday morning and was undecided whether to return to my city today (Sunday) or Monday. After the gathering he was invited to stay with the widow and her grown children in the family home and texted me that he plans to be there through Monday. Hopefully, he will find answers during this time to some of his questions...