Questions about wife's behavior could use some help

[viatori patuit]

Did you ask her to clarify her comments after the facts? When she said she’s not attracted to you, did she mean she’s not attracted at that particilar moment when you’re fighting? When she said she used to be insatiable with her ex-bfs, was she being spiteful when she was lost in your fight? Not that it’s not horrible to say those things, but did she at least know she didn’t mean them after the facts?

 

She is very evasive when it comes to the comments. She will neither confirm or deny them. The insatiable comment was in response to my observation she might withholding sex as Manipulation. I concede the comment might have been poorly timed. Again, logic just catching me as it appeared she was using sex to manipulate things.

 

Realistically it’s like dealing with a high schooler. Deny and deflect everything.

[JuneL]

It’s very unfortunate that you’re ready having such exchanges when your marriage is so young. Was getting married mainly her idea? Did you just go along with it because you’re afraid of losing her if you didn’t propose in time? I’m asking these questions because 1. I saw that you had quite a few issues (including issues with her small kids) before getting married, and 2. We would think you would be very cautious about choosing the right partner after having divorced twice.

[Normm]

Besides the ups and downs, these core issues- have they been there since day one or did they suddenly appear after you got married?

 

 

Because if they've been there since day 1, then I'm going to gently suggest that getting married yet again to a person you only knew for 2 years was a big mistake and that you cut your losses. And for goodness sake make this your last marriage no matter how great things seem to be with the next one.

 

 

If the issues suddenly surfaced after marriage than either a) you were "bait and switched" and she kept the truth from you until after you were trapped, or b) the commitment of marriage caused her to undergo a major personality change in which case counseling could be effective but she's already made it clear she's not interested so it appears going the attorney route and getting divorced is the only solution.

[viatori patuit]

Besides the ups and downs, these core issues- have they been there since day one or did they suddenly appear after you got married?

 

 

Because if they've been there since day 1, then I'm going to gently suggest that getting married yet again to a person you only knew for 2 years was a big mistake and that you cut your losses. And for goodness sake make this your last marriage no matter how great things seem to be with the next one.

 

 

If the issues suddenly surfaced after marriage than either a) you were "bait and switched" and she kept the truth from you until after you were trapped, or b) the commitment of marriage caused her to undergo a major personality change in which case counseling could be effective but she's already made it clear she's not interested so it appears going the attorney route and getting divorced is the only solution.

 

First, no. The issues I describe developed after we got married. Literally on our wedding night she picked a fight about something trivial. There were some short term bumps right after that and then things were really pretty good.

 

I have no answer for what drives this type of behavior. I think I have been pretty up front that I certainly share in the blame here. If fixing myself would fix this problem then i would do just that. It won't though. Usually when couples have issues they are both to blame. Trying to correct the problem by changing oneself sounds like codependency to me.

 

 

second, I am kind of hoping for another alternative besides divorce. While this marriage is only 9 months old that seems AWFUL final. Surely there must be some middle ground? Some way to suggest improvements besides ultimatums or just leaving? I know if I was the person saying things like this then I would want something less draconian.

 

Finally, I think your suggestion that I not marry again is a bit out of line. You have no idea what happened in my prior marriages and quite frankly look foolish suggesting that somehow that was my issue alone that caused it. To give you context (which I don't mind doing as I am asking for help) here is what happened:

 

1. marriage one. This was the love of my life. I was crazy over her. We were young and wild. We were married for two years. Then one day I came home and she was gone. She had an affair and moved out. I literally never saw her again. I have zero choice in this divorce and would have happily stayed married to her if she could have contained her desire to cheat.

 

2. Marriage two - very nice girl. We got along ok and were happily married for about five years. The relationship died then but we just didn't know it. We carried on for another five years or so until we divorced. I harbor no animosity towards her and really could have stayed married if I wanted. It was just dead from either lack of effort or just old age. If it matters I would have divorced five years earlier but she got cancer. I think dumping a divorce on someone with cancer is a class A jerk move so I stayed until she was cancer free and healthy again.

 

3. This marriage - I love this girl madly too. When she is not acting out she is great. We get along, talk and generally are really good friends. There are these instances where she says things that do lasting damage. Stuff that is only said if one is vindictive or if they are immature. I think its immature as she doesn't always act like that.

 

forcing someone to either accept an abusive marriage or else avoid marriage is horrible advice. I appreciate that you thought it was correct, but I am not so sure that it is sound advice for me.

[JuneL]

So her insatiable comment was in response to your asking if she’s withholding sex to manipulate you? You’re both saying things very hurtful to each other. This is the kind of things that once said cannot be taken back.

[Normm]

Usually when couples have issues they are both to blame.

 

I can think of many situations where the problems in a relationship are clearly the fault of one of the parties who is dysfunctional in some way, perhaps abusive, or an alcoholic or drug addict or has a serious mental disorder or is a cheater or who is financially irresponsible and you've got their partner trying to keep it all together but is struggling through no fault of their own other than that they chose the wrong person to settle down with.

 

Interesting that your view is something other than that and you present it as if it's a fact.

[salparadise]

This is awful. Unless I do exactly what she says and how she says it I am causing problems. How exactly do you disagree with someone who doesn’t concede they can be wrong?

 

Okay, I stopped short of suggesting this previously, but the more you post the more convinced I become. Everything you describe fits the pattern I experienced with my ex-wife. It feels like you're talking about the same person. My ex would have splitting episodes (including hateful, hurtful comments) and then would refuse to discuss it, apologize, or accept any responsibility whatsoever. She always found a way to blame her episodes on me.... if only you'd do this or that I'd be happy. So basically making me responsible for her moods and behaviors.

 

What you describe is characteristic of BPD (borderline personality disorder). You should read the threads on this disorder and see how much they align with your experience. I'm sure you will gain a great deal of perspective.

 

Here are a few links. I'd suggest reading threads that member Downtown has participated in. He's well informed.

 

18 Warning Signs for BPD

 

Rebel's Thread

 

Confused's Thread

 

Stop Walking On Eggshells - book

[viatori patuit]

I can think of many situations where the problems in a relationship are clearly the fault of one of the parties who is dysfunctional in some way, perhaps abusive, or an alcoholic or drug addict or has a serious mental disorder or is a cheater or who is financially irresponsible and you've got their partner trying to keep it all together but is struggling through no fault of their own other than that they chose the wrong person to settle down with.

 

Interesting that your view is something other than that and you present it as if it's a fact.

 

Well, I suppose you are correct. I like to think as adults we could discuss it rationally. I don’t think of things like this as fact. I tend to think of these things as guides. Usually there are issues on both sides (but one side may certainly be a bigger contributor). I certainly do not mean to make it sound like fact. That was why I used words like “usually” and “in general”. There are always outliers on every thing.

 

Perhaps it is just the internet. This is a pretty impersonal way to get help. All you see is what I type, and as I said I am pretty logical. There is certainly way more to this than I share here from a feelings perspective. I mentioned a couple of times how confused this makes me. I think that is bleeding into what I type on.

 

From three pages now though I have gotten some pretty good stuff. I want to be able to learn from the mistake so I don’t make it again. I am very forgiving of people and try not to hold a grudge. I think sometimes that I might be too quick to do that, or that I might say it is ok but not really be ok with it.

 

I do appreciate the help i get on this site. It is a wonderful the way people chime in and ask either great questions or else offer interesting observations.

 

Mostly I just want to know if I am justified in being offended by these statements and behaviors. I think a sanity check when I am angry or frustrated is a really good thing to do.

[viatori patuit]

So her insatiable comment was in response to your asking if she’s withholding sex to manipulate you? You’re both saying things very hurtful to each other. This is the kind of things that once said cannot be taken back.

 

As a quick clarification I actually asked her if she was doing that. I can see where that might not be received well though.

 

I admit I am certainly capable of putting my foot in my mouth when flustered (sometimes both feet).

[Mr. Lucky]

So her insatiable comment was in response to your asking if she’s withholding sex to manipulate you? You’re both saying things very hurtful to each other. This is the kind of things that once said cannot be taken back.

 

Viatori, June brings up an important point. While you’re sensitive to the hurt your wife’s comments inflict on you, your logical nature may make you less aware of the impact of your own.

 

Something to think about, if not in this relationship then the next one....

 

Mr. Lucky

[viatori patuit]

Viatori, June brings up an important point. While you’re sensitive to the hurt your wife’s comments inflict on you, your logical nature may make you less aware of the impact of your own.

 

Something to think about, if not in this relationship then the next one....

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I am actually aware of that. The logic is a double edge sword. I am often capable of saying things directly that maybe could be said gentler but I am also ok with apologizing when I do. It’s not like I would expect perfection from me, her or anyone.

 

Human condition I guess. I was always under the assumption that ones bad behavior does not excuse my bad behavior. So if the problem is another person saying bad things then my saying bad things is not excused.

[JuneL]

Just a few quick thoughts:

 

-It’s clear you both can work on how to communicate better with each other. So I hope you set up marriage counseling soon.

 

-Since you accused her of withholding sex to manipulate you, I assume you’re not very happy about your sex life as well?

 

-It seems that your wife was rushing to get married to you because she’s looking for a dad to her small kids, very much like how she rushed to marry her first husband due to her biological clock. I’m not saying she doesn’t love you, but she didn’t take the time to evaluate whether you’ll be a long-term compatible partner. I was wondering the same for you. You guys had so many issues (from your other threads), why did you rush to marry her so soon?

[carhill]

Looks like this was a red flag back when dating too:

 

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/616603-handling-selfishness-immaturity

 

IMO, if W isn't interested in working things out in MC, the M is toast. Unhealthy fit.

[Mr. Lucky]

Human condition I guess. I was always under the assumption that ones bad behavior does not excuse my bad behavior. So if the problem is another person saying bad things then my saying bad things is not excused.

 

My point is simply that she may feel she’s operating on a level playing field.

 

I’ve had to come to terms with my own similar behavior. Because my wife gets more emotional when we argue, I’ve discounted the hurt in some of what I’ve said because my voice wasn’t raised. Trust me, doesn’t work that way and, the next day, your partner remembers more of what you’ve said and less of how you said it.

 

VP, I still don’t get the sense you bring the same level of critical analysis to your behavior that you bring to hers...

 

Mr. Lucky

[JuneL]

My point is simply that she may feel she’s operating on a level playing field.

 

I’ve had to come to terms with my own similar behavior. Because my wife gets more emotional when we argue, I’ve discounted the hurt in some of what I’ve said because my voice wasn’t raised. Trust me, doesn’t work that way and, the next day, your partner remembers more of what you’ve said and less of how you said it.

 

VP, I still don’t get the sense you bring the same level of critical analysis to your behavior that you bring to hers...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Another thing I noticed is that you’re really sensitive, and yet you’re adamant about your being super rational. In another thread, you’re very hurt that she called you out on being weak with your kneecap pain. She might just say it half-jokingly.

[ChatroomHero]

So if I summarize what you posted:

 

 

1. Your wife says she is not attracted to you.

2. She doesn't have a lot of interest in having sex with you.

3. She makes sure you know she loved sex in the past with everyone but you.

4. She seems to indicate you are (or look) too old for her.

5. She insults and degrades you.

6. She probably won't go to counseling.

 

 

You reasoning seems to be...well, she doesn't really mean it. When she is not doing or saying those things, she is great. You accept the times when she is ok or nice to you as real but want to disregard the times she is not as a fluke.

 

 

Probably the most important thing you posted, " There are these instances where she says things that do lasting damage. Stuff that is only said if one is vindictive or if they are immature".

 

 

Here's the issue, you cannot trust her because of her doing that. She will break your trust and you can't just rebuild it in 3-4 months and be prepared for her next outburst, rinse and repeat.

 

 

Each outburst will chip away at your trust and the basis of your relationship will be (is)...I think my wife likes me, but I am pretty sure she hates me, but maybe she doesn't really hate me... You will toggle back and forth with that all the time.

 

 

Frankly, without change, 2,3,4,10 years down the road you will have 0 trust in her. To me that's torture. I'd imagine saving up to take her on a cruise or something she has always dreamed of. Working overtime for 6 months straight, shelling out $ thousands, making elaborate plans to make it perfect. Going to great lengths to make it a special, thoughtful surprise for her...but deep down fearing she will turn on you and say something like, "Can we get separate rooms, I don't want people thinking I am with a guy that looks old enough to be my dad".

 

 

It sure sounds like you'll never be able to trust her unless she changes and even then it would probably take years to really trust her. If you like that rollercoaster ride so be it, some people love the drama and anticipation of when the next big blow will happen. I hate that and find it torture myself.

[JuneL]

Looks like this was a red flag back when dating too:

 

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/616603-handling-selfishness-immaturity

 

IMO, if W isn't interested in working things out in MC, the M is toast. Unhealthy fit.

 

This is what you wrote in post #29:

“The issues I describe developed after we got married.”

 

But a look at the thread above reveals that you/she had the exact same issues before you got married. In fact, many responses were strikingly similar to the feedback here.

 

The only difference is, you’re quick to get married there despite those issues, and you’re quick to consider divorce here with the same set of issues.

[Els]

Sorry if this is a bit long, but I am completely perplexed here and I am hopeful some of yall can help me straighten this out.

 

First a bit of back story. I recently married last November. Embarrassingly it is my third marriage. My first one ended when my wife had an affair. The second one died a slow and painful death. I could have stayed in the second marriage as long as I wanted. It was not fulfilling for either of us though and I thought it correct to end it.

 

I don't consider myself damaged per se just a bit unlucky and less tolerant of bad situations. I also think sometimes I am easily confused and make some bad decisions as a result. Understanding all of that, here is my question. My new wife (who i dated for two years prior to marriage) has said some things that I find odd to me recently.

 

First, she has told me she is "not attracted to me". This can happen one day, and the next day we are all fine and it is like nothing ever happened. This usually happens when we have a disagreement about something. I have to admit, this bothers me a great deal. It seems immature if she says it and doesn't mean it and it is suicide to stay in a relationship where this is truth. I think she is more immature than anything, but I can't say for sure. She can often follow this up with more direct comments about my graying hair (I am an "Old Man") . And to be fair, her friends have repeatedly told her that I am a handsome guy (and I have always been told that by others). i am 47, so the gray hair kind of goes with the territory. I suppose I could respond with something equally as harsh (like pointing out she gained weight) but that seems counter productive. I tend to keep my mouth shut while this is going on but I admit it bothers me.

 

Second, there have been some sexual issues. I have a very high libido. Like stupid high. I always want it. And I tend to like to push boundaries with people during sex. Not hard and fast boundaries (like no threesomes) but perhaps trying it somewhere new or trying something new with my partner. Of course she is always free to say no. I understand that. I am of the belief however that we both sort of need to agree on these things. If I want something and she doesn't, she absolutely doesn't have to do it. But I don't have to be happy about that. I figure if we communicated about things and worked through them we would reach a happy medium. That is the issue - she won't do that. If we discuss anything sexual it is a fight guaranteed. I am exhausted of this nonsense at this point. If I bring it up she will tell me how in her past she was insatiable with her former boyfriends. Now I suffer a bit from retroactive jealousy, so this is a real sticking point for me. The Retroactive Jealousy isn't her problem, but don't think comments like that are appropriate no matter what.

 

Finally, she will swear at me, call me names and generally degrade me when angry. I have told her repeatedly this is out of line but she won't stop. To me this is beyond immature. This seems like a dumb problem to have, but I have it.

 

 

I am embarrassed I cannot figure out a way to deal wit this situation. We don't normally fight and this is not a huge part of our lives. It happens maybe every three or four months where she gets moody and then says these things. I am really confused right now. Of course I love my wife and I want to make this work. I just don't know how to even begin to approach these issues. Thanks so much for reading.

 

 

How long have you been together? Have you tried MC? I agree that some of the things she's said to you are wrong. Nothing good can come out of that sort of verbal attacks.

 

 

 

That being said, the part about sex and sexuality really confuses me. You talk about having a "high libido" and wanting to push boundaries and try new things... but I always assumed you were very rigid about sexuality, because weren't you the one posting about how you view vibrator use as "cheating"? I mean, sex toys (especially on a woman, we're not even talking prostate massagers here) are pretty tame as far as "boundaries" go, lots of vanilla people use them, and even those who don't don't usually take as harsh a view of them as you do. If I had a partner who was against sex toys, I would feel rather uninclined to "explore" anything new with him, because it would be clear that the only "boundaries" he wants to push are the ones that give him pleasure, whereas it's all zero gain on my front. (To be clear, I love exploring new things with my partner.)

Edited July 31, 2018 by Elswyth

[BettyDraper]

With all due respect, I would be pretty unhappy with my partner if he decided that I needed individual counselling...

 

You can't really tell the woman that she needs individual counselling. Either you see the problem together, and decide to work on it together in marriage counselling. Or, you divorce. But, insisting the other is to blame and asserting that she needs individual counselling is not going to work for you. She will most likely tell you where to go - and rightfully so.

 

I don't agree with this. Adults have the responsibility of healing their issues if they are hurting themselves and others. A troubled person who refuses to see a therapist is immature and unable to own up to their challenges.

 

A spouse can ask his partner to seek counseling without blaming her. Marriage counseling isn't going to be successful if one spouse has serious issues which they refuse to resolve.

 

I saw a therapist for the first two years of our marriage and it was my choice. I felt that some of my childhood issues were being triggered by the vulnerability of such of a close relationship. My husband was impressed that I sought IC myself. If he asked me to see a therapist before I went, I would have simply asked him why and we would have had a discussion.

[BaileyB]

I don't agree with this. Adults have the responsibility of healing their issues if they are hurting themselves and others. A troubled person who refuses to see a therapist is immature and unable to own up to their challenges.

 

A spouse can ask his partner to seek counseling without blaming her. Marriage counseling isn't going to be successful if one spouse has serious issues which they refuse to resolve.

 

I saw a therapist for the first two years of our marriage and it was my choice. I felt that some of my childhood issues were being triggered by the vulnerability of such of a close relationship. My husband was impressed that I sought IC myself. If he asked me to see a therapist before I went, I would have simply asked him why and we would have had a discussion.

 

I don’t disagree Betty. I suppose it depends on what the issues are and how/why the suggestion is made. If the suggestion is made sensitively and is in the best interest of the individual and/or the marriage, it may be well received. If it is done more harshly, if she is being told she is “the problem” and that she “must” attend counselling to fix the marriage... well, that is unlikely to be received well. I think in this case, it is more likely that this is how the message would be delivered and received... which is why, I don’t think it will be successful.

 

And yes, the fact that she refuses marriage counselling would not be acceptable to me. I would want to dedicate myself, and I would hope my partner would feel the same, to healing the problems in the marriage. Again, that’s not happening here.

[JuneL]

His wife is probably very resentful that he’s not willing to be the dad of her small kids 100%. I can sort of understand his reluctance. But that means they are incompatible in a major way, and I still don’t understand why they decided to get marry (I know I’m asking this question 3 times!).

[Lotsgoingon]

I agree: your wife shows signs of borderline personality disorder, which is a huge issue. My ex showed symptoms of that ...

 

Here's the thing: there is NO WAY she didn't exhibit signs of this behavior before. Not completely so ... But in my experience, there were probably at least several times before marriage that she went ballistic, nuclear, nasty on you.

 

In fact, I'll go further and say during one of those times she got mad at you and went for the jugular (with a really nasty criticism that only your enemy of 100 years would utter) ... you were so startled that you pushed the attack out of your mind ... because it was so over-the-top crazy.

 

And let me guess: you tried to be understanding ... given all that you liked about her ...

 

What has probably happened with your wife is what was explained happened to my ex. Part of bpd is inability to read social cues and inability to manage their own moods and feelings. People with this condition experience wild fluctuations in feelings and emotions.

 

Well, what's a demanding situation for managing your own feelings and reading other people's subtle feelings? ... Marriage!!!! Sounds like living together and marriage has overwhelmed her systems and unfortunately, she is taking no responsibility for this. Just being in marriage with you is straining her systems.

 

Unfortunately you cannot really reason with people with this condition. Look, I had to admit defeat and exit my marriage soon when I realized my ex was not ready for it and that she had signs of bpd.

 

Don't be afraid to retreat.

[preraph]

Eh, I think he laid it out rationally. My only problem with what he said is that he may have some entitlement in his pushing of boundaries sexually. And I don't know this, just an area of interest to be explored.

 

The crap she's saying though... not attracted, graying hair, old man, insatiable with others but not him... these are hitting below the belt literally and figuratively. Why would anyone want to cut this deep? It's an expression her relationship with herself. Once you see where it comes from you can be compassionate, but it's also time to disengage. A man just can't live with a woman this disagreeable and underhanded.

 

I'm agreeing with Sal. the whole time I'm reading what you're saying about she should be willing to talk about it, I'm just thinking what you really mean is she should be willing to listen to me and get talked into it. I do think you have a big sense of entitlement. As a woman, this is all pretty boiled down to if I don't feel like having sex, nothing you can say will change my mind and all it's going to do is make me feel extremely disrespected. Women are not there just to fill your sexual needs. People have different sex drives, but 99% of people Ark in the mood for Sex On Demand. and they shouldn't feel they have to just because they're married to you.

 

You're just trying to get everything you want and not compromising with her at all without making it into a huge fight. When she's unhappy about that is when she's not attracted to you, and that is genuine. Women have to feel good about you and their soul to want to have sex with you and to find you attractive.

 

you're making too much about whatever she said about past relationships. those are probably relationships that didn't last long enough for the thrill to wear off. If she had better since she would watch what she saying, but I just think your entitlement is making her so mad she wants to say something to shut you up.

 

I think counseling is a good idea. Good luck.

[pepperbird]

Op,

 

 

As is so often the case, it's hard to offer helpful advice without hearing both sides of the story.

 

 

i don't know if your wife has a personality disorder, and I would highly caution against diagnosing her just based upon your words.

 

If I am to make a suggetsion, it would be to write out all the issues you feel you have been having with her. Refine/ edit it until you feel it's what you want to say, and then ask her to sit down with you and read it through before she comments. When she does, really listen to what she has to say. Take some time and think about it and decide if her concerns have some legitimate basis.

 

If you feel that marriage counseling is appropriate for you two, then be firm. Set some ground rules such as you both have to like the counselor or the appointments with him/her will cease and you will look for another one you both like. If you need to offer her a "carrot", offer to let her pick the first ( and with any luck, the only one you'll need) marriage counselor herself. There is a still a real stigma against therapy in some circles, and perhaps if she can choose one she thinks she can feel comfortable with, she might be more willing to give it a try. There are even some who can offer counseling trough Skype/ Face time or what have you, so that if you both try it together and it turns out to be bunk, you can simply close your laptop:laugh:

[viatori patuit]

Well I took some time to just relax. As I expected, she started to mellow on a day later and by the time I got home on the following day she was happy and chatty. It was like nothing had ever happened. The next day though she started in again on how I am a "horrible step father" and how her kids deserve better. She also started in on how I am a "horrible person" and she flat out said she wanted a divorce. She wont act on that though. She just texts hateful stuff to me and threatens to leave but when push comes to shove she simply won't do it. And yes, I am sure I said some things that probably inflamed the situation. i tried repeatedly to stop discussing/de-escalate but she was not having any of that. She just kept escalating to the point I just muted my phone and went on with my day.

 

 

I am pretty spent from all of this drama. This is beyond stupid. I feel like I am in high school again. I just don't need it right now. I think for the short term I am going to do nothing and ignore the drama and focus on taking care of myself first and foremost. I have accepted that I need time and space to internalize all of this stuff.

 

I can appreciate the time and effort everyone took to respond. I know you don't know the whole story. That being said, some of the comments here were really helpful.I also know that there is a natural level of suspicion on this site. I think I have enough of a grasp on this to be comfortable with taking the time to make the right decision.

 

 

I will check in from time to time and certainly if I get super confused again I will reach back out.