At the end of my rope after 22 years but stuck

[Striver]

I don't know how to do it though. How do I respond when she asks me what she is supposed to do. I care for her, I don't want her to be homeless. I can't leave due to financial issues, I can't throw her out. I have no friends or family close I can stay with or that she can stay with. So what do people do in this situation? She isn't going to work to support herself, I have no doubts on that point.

 

How do i handle the inevitable move back to Texas because her family is there and it's cheaper for her to live argument? Not one part of me wants to go back to that place. My daughter doesn't want to leave, my son is indifferent. But kids are kids and I know they need two parents there for them, even if she can be mean at times and I want them to have that. I also worry that the court might take them away from me, she said before the courts always rule for the women and they often do.

 

Now here you are stonewalling. Throwing up emotion to us in an attempt to not move forward.

 

You are familiar with budgets. All of the issues with a divorce can be budgeted. If you literally can't afford that, well that is that, and there is no emotion involved with it. But many here can help you with the costs. The costs are real and can be calculated.

[Ruby Slippers]

I'm through this phase now, but over the past year I talked to a number of men online and was shocked to learn how many married men are in a similar situation. Deadbeat, unappreciative wives who refuse to work, and do nothing but bleed money, money that the men work hard to earn. One guy told me he makes six figures and feels poor. He got laid off, was struggling to find a new job, and said his wife was still spending thousands a month on junk.

 

I have no idea why these guys don't divorce. I'm sure there are tons of single women like me who'd be a much better alternative. Even being single and alone would beat that misery!

[Whodatdog]

I dont think there is any doubt that this marriage is over with, and you need to form your exit plan. However, you do have a 14 year old in the house. The 17 year old will soon be off to college, or working at the very least. The 14 year old still needs some stability in the house. Maybe decide to yourself that you are going to divorce, but give the 14 year old time to get of a better age. It will likely take that long for you to make your exit plan. If nothing else, it might give you some relief knowing that this isnt forever, and you wont blow up again. Sometimes just knowing a plan is in place is enough to make it bearable until the end of it.

 

Good luck with this. Sounds like you deserve better.

[Downtown]

AnyOne, you are describing red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., strong jealousy, suicide threats, verbal and physical abuse, emotional instability, temper tantrums, insecurity, lack of impulse control (e.g., binge spending), always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (hating you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD.

 

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD. Only a professional can determine that. Instead, I'm suggesting she may be a "BPDer," i.e., a person exhibiting strong BPD symptoms and thus is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum.

 

Sometimes I'm nearly convinced I am insane.

If you really have been living with a BPDer for 22 years, it is not surprising that you sometimes feel "insane." A large share of the abused partners of BPDers become so confused that they feel like they may be going crazy. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists, sociopaths, or Bipolar sufferers.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

It always seems like she is boiling for a fight.

If your W is a BPDer, she has been carrying enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of anger that is already there.

 

This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. And this is why it is impossible to have a rational discussion of any sensitive issue with a BPDer even if you approach her while she is in a calm, happy mood. She is always just ten seconds away from a tantrum if you trigger her two fears (abandonment and engulfment).

 

And this is why "Intense, inappropriate anger" is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. Indeed, the terms "anger," "dangerous behavior," and "unstable" appear in 4 of the 9 symptoms for BPD. See 9 Traits at BPDdemystified.

 

She has major depression issues, pain issues.

A 2008 American study found that 80% of female BPDers also suffer from a co-occurring mood disorder such as depression or bipolar disorder.

 

As to the pain issues, a number of studies have found a strong association between BPD and chronic pain syndromes. A 2012 study, for example, reports that "Since 1994, eight studies have explored the relationship between chronic pain syndromes and borderline personality disorder. In averaging the prevalence rates in these studies, 30 percent of participants with chronic pain harbor this Axis II disorder." See Innov in Clin Neuro, 2012.

 

With regard to fibromyalgia (a pain that moves about the body to various areas), a number of studies have found a strong relationship between it and BPD. See, e.g., Fibro and BPD - GH Psychiatry and Fibro Prevalence in BPD and Fibro and BPD -- AAPEL View. Anecdotally, I can report that my BPDer exW suffers from chronic fibromyalgia.

 

That's no longer an excuse for how she acts towards me and at times towards our kids.

If your W actually is a BPDer, her BPD traits will help EXPLAIN her behavior but will not EXCUSE it. Having strong BPD traits does not give her a free pass to abuse you and your children.

 

Moreover, it is important that your W be held fully accountable for her own bad decisions. This means you should stop walking on eggshells around her and allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Otherwise, your enabling behavior is destroying all incentives she would have to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them -- i.e., acquire the emotional skills needed to better regulate her own emotions instead of behaving like a spoiled child.

 

Of course, your learning to spot BPD warning signs will not enable you to diagnose her issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe and persistent as to constitute a full-blown disorder.

 

Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., by helping you leave a toxic marriage and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. It may also help you decide whether to seek professional guidance. I therefore suggest you take a quick look at these BPD warning signs to see if most sound very familiar:

 

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
   
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
   
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
   
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
   
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
   
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
   
7. Low self esteem;
   
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
   
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
   
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
    
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
    
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming, during the first few months of your relationship, that you are the only one who has treated her well;
    
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
    
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
    
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
    
16. Having no close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away) even though she may have many casual friends;
    
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
    
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she often "rewrites history" because she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.
    

I would greatly appreciate any advice from anyone who has been through similar with a spouse.

I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years. If most of the 18 behaviors listed above ring bells and raise questions, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I also would recommend that you see a psychologist (for a visit or two all by yourself) to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and your two children are dealing with.

 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits them at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as suicide threats, verbal abuse, and impulsive spending.

[anyoneelse]

AnyOne, you are describing red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., strong jealousy, suicide threats, verbal and physical abuse, emotional instability, temper tantrums, insecurity, lack of impulse control (e.g., binge spending), always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (hating you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD.

 

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD. Only a professional can determine that. Instead, I'm suggesting she may be a "BPDer," i.e., a person exhibiting strong BPD symptoms and thus is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum.

 

If you really have been living with a BPDer for 22 years, it is not surprising that you sometimes feel "insane." A large share of the abused partners of BPDers become so confused that they feel like they may be going crazy. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists, sociopaths, or Bipolar sufferers.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

If your W is a BPDer, she has been carrying enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of anger that is already there.

 

This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. And this is why it is impossible to have a rational discussion of any sensitive issue with a BPDer even if you approach her while she is in a calm, happy mood. She is always just ten seconds away from a tantrum if you trigger her two fears (abandonment and engulfment).

 

And this is why "Intense, inappropriate anger" is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. Indeed, the terms "anger," "dangerous behavior," and "unstable" appear in 4 of the 9 symptoms for BPD. See 9 Traits at BPDdemystified.

 

A 2008 American study found that 80% of female BPDers also suffer from a co-occurring mood disorder such as depression or bipolar disorder.

 

As to the pain issues, a number of studies have found a strong association between BPD and chronic pain syndromes. A 2012 study, for example, reports that "Since 1994, eight studies have explored the relationship between chronic pain syndromes and borderline personality disorder. In averaging the prevalence rates in these studies, 30 percent of participants with chronic pain harbor this Axis II disorder." See Innov in Clin Neuro, 2012.

 

With regard to fibromyalgia (a pain that moves about the body to various areas), a number of studies have found a strong relationship between it and BPD. See, e.g., Fibro and BPD - GH Psychiatry and Fibro Prevalence in BPD and Fibro and BPD -- AAPEL View. Anecdotally, I can report that my BPDer exW suffers from chronic fibromyalgia.

 

If your W actually is a BPDer, her BPD traits will help EXPLAIN her behavior but will not EXCUSE it. Having strong BPD traits does not give her a free pass to abuse you and your children.

 

Moreover, it is important that your W be held fully accountable for her own bad decisions. This means you should stop walking on eggshells around her and allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Otherwise, your enabling behavior is destroying all incentives she would have to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them -- i.e., acquire the emotional skills needed to better regulate her own emotions instead of behaving like a spoiled child.

 

Of course, your learning to spot BPD warning signs will not enable you to diagnose her issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe and persistent as to constitute a full-blown disorder.

 

Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., by helping you leave a toxic marriage and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. It may also help you decide whether to seek professional guidance. I therefore suggest you take a quick look at these BPD warning signs to see if most sound very familiar:

 

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
   
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
   
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
   
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
   
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
   
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;
   
7. Low self esteem;
   
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
   
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;
   
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
    
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
    
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming, during the first few months of your relationship, that you are the only one who has treated her well;
    
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
    
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
    
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
    
16. Having no close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away) even though she may have many casual friends;
    
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
    
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she often "rewrites history" because she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.
    

I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years. If most of the 18 behaviors listed above ring bells and raise questions, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I also would recommend that you see a psychologist (for a visit or two all by yourself) to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and your two children are dealing with.

 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits them at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as suicide threats, verbal abuse, and impulsive spending.

 

WOW, just wow. She has everyone of those. How can you read this and coem to that conclusion that when all the counselors she has gone to and doctors don't see it? Maybe they did and she just didn't say anything? She lives in fear of being locked up if people knew how bad she was (her words once during a rational bout). That is exactly why I said she wasn't the woman I fell in love with, she completely changed a few months into the relationship, we liked all the same music, the same food, lots of sex etc then it just stopped when we moved in together right before we married and I just thought it would pass. #18, my god she had me convinced I said and did things that I knew in my heart I didn't do or say but she was so convinced that I often believed her and asked her to forgive me. She has fibro as she calls it, chronic pain, chronic depression, each new diagnosis has been a justification to her for doing nothing or for how she acts. Always insisting "do you believe me now?".

 

I constantly tell her to stop using generalizations when she is mad like "you always" and "You never"

 

Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later

 

She literally flips out on my over how I hold my face when I talk to her, accusing me of giving her dirty looks or looking at her like I hate her guts. God forbid I glance in the direction of a woman she deems pretty.

 

Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

 

In her calm moments she has cried saying "I know you will leave me, everyone does" yet she has spent decades pushing me away. I tell her I am seeing pts all day yet she still calls or texts me 5-8 times per day and gets angry when I don't answer. If i don't answer, she just calls back until I do one after another. When I do get time to call back she's already mad at me for taking so long when she needs to talk to me. 99% of the time it's "I hurt so bad" or "Can I have $20" or "What are we having for dinner." I'm up at 3am to work and home at 530pm and still cook dinner 99% of the time before being in bed at 730pm to do it all over again. If she cooks you better have a medal ready and praise steady.

 

Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

 

This so much, one of the things I hate the most. she blows up over nothing and while I am standing there trying to figure out what she is talking about or why she just blew up she is yelling at me for not comforting her or "supporting her." "You never support me!" i always say, I have no idea what you are talking about. Support is so vague, please be specific I say. "How can I help you when I don't even understand what's going on" feels like my mantra some days. All she does is get more angry because I don't do what she wants fast enough. It's HUG ME! all while she is screaming at me and in a rage when all I want to do is run.

Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people;

 

We had a group of friends years ago we spent every weekend with. She acted so happy and loving there. It was one of the reasons I liked going over there and I was always sad when we left and that happy and loving person disappeared. One of the wives was very pretty and dressed sexily and it was often "I saw how you looked at her" afterwards.

 

I could go on, but she has literally all of those. I feel bad for her, but I want out so badly.

[anyoneelse]

I dont think there is any doubt that this marriage is over with, and you need to form your exit plan. However, you do have a 14 year old in the house. The 17 year old will soon be off to college, or working at the very least. The 14 year old still needs some stability in the house. Maybe decide to yourself that you are going to divorce, but give the 14 year old time to get of a better age. It will likely take that long for you to make your exit plan. If nothing else, it might give you some relief knowing that this isnt forever, and you wont blow up again. Sometimes just knowing a plan is in place is enough to make it bearable until the end of it.

 

Good luck with this. Sounds like you deserve better.

 

Thanks for the input. My son has Aspergers, sometimes the 14-year-old is the more grown up (technically she's not 14 for a few months). I'm not sure he will ever be fully independent, he has such a hard time with things I completely take for granted. He was befuddled with how to turn the stove off, simply couldn't grasp it, he can't keep the sequence straight for laundry, trust me that you don't want to have to clean detergent out of the fabric softener dispenser. Yet he makes As and Bs without cracking a book at school. I love him more than life. He will probably always be with me and that's ok.

 

My daughter on the other hand wants to see the world, possibly as the only veterinarian/truck driver in the country. healing dogs and delivering supplies at the same time. I get what you mean though, thanks

[BluesPower]

I don't know how to do it though. How do I respond when she asks me what she is supposed to do. I care for her, I don't want her to be homeless. I can't leave due to financial issues, I can't throw her out. I have no friends or family close I can stay with or that she can stay with. So what do people do in this situation? She isn't going to work to support herself, I have no doubts on that point.

 

How do i handle the inevitable move back to Texas because her family is there and it's cheaper for her to live argument? Not one part of me wants to go back to that place. My daughter doesn't want to leave, my son is indifferent. But kids are kids and I know they need two parents there for them, even if she can be mean at times and I want them to have that. I also worry that the court might take them away from me, she said before the courts always rule for the women and they often do.

 

I guess you did not read my post...

 

You are enabling her, if it was not for you, she would have to figure it out like an adult.

 

I HAVE LIVED THIS. IT WILL EAT YOUR SOUL, IT WILL SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF YOU.

 

If you are a loving father, you will get your kids out of this situation.

 

AND THE COURTS ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE THE KIDS TO A MENTALLY ILL WOMAN.

 

I worried about the same stuff.

 

Get yourself and your kids out of this situation...

[Downtown]

All the counselors she has gone to and doctors don't see it? Maybe they did and she just didn't say anything?

Psychologists and other therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. This withholding of information is no secret inside the psychiatric community.

 

It has been discussed in academic articles for decades. See, e.g., the classic 1992 Dartmouth Medical School article at The Beginning of Wisdom Is Never Calling a Patient a Borderline. Twenty years later, a forum of resident doctors discusses this very same issue at Do You Tell Your Borderline Patients about Their Diagnosis?

 

Also see the 2015 Minnesota study, BPD: The Frequency of Disclosure and the Choice to Disclose. That study interviewed 170 licensed therapists, 74% of which are psychologists. It finds that only 30% of them say that they "always" tell BPDers their diagnosis -- and 31% say that they "usually" tell them.

 

She completely changed a few months into the relationship.

If she is a BPDer, what you saw at the beginning likely was sincere. Her infatuation convinced her that you were the nearly perfect man who had arrived to rescue her from unhappiness. In that way, the infatuation held her two fears at bay. Yet, as soon as the infatuation started to evaporate -- typically about 4 to 6 months into the relationship -- both fears returned and you started triggering them.

 

In addition to the abandonment fear discussed above, a BPDer has a second great fear: that of engulfment. The existence of this second fear puts you in a hopeless predicament because the two fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

 

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Although a BPDer craves intimacy like nearly everyone else, she is too immature to handle it for very long.

 

This is why a BPDer will push you away -- by creating an argument over nothing -- immediately after an intimate evening or great weekend, or right in the middle of a wonderful vacation. And this is why a BPDer typically exhibits her very WORST behavior immediately after (if not during) the very BEST of times.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering those two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.

 

I feel like she is a terrible third child.

If your W has full-blown BPD, her emotional development likely was frozen at about age four. This is why your marriage has essentially been a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife relationship.

 

I want out of this relationship.

Toward that end, I offer several suggestions:

 

First, read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce will get very nasty very quickly.

 

Second, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful is the "Family Law, Custody, Co-Parenting, Divorce" board. If your W is a BPDer, she likely will be so vindictive that she will engage in parental alienation, trying to turn your children against you.

 

Third, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Doing What's Best for the Kids and Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

 

Fourth, for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend an online blog by a psychiatric nurse. It provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at BPD on the Behavioral Unit. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with many BPDers for hours every work day.

 

Fifth, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and your two kids are dealing with. By seeing your own psychologist -- who has not treated or seen your W -- you are assured that he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.

 

Sixth, if you believe your W has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer.

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us here on this LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

[Mr. Lucky]

You are enabling her, if it was not for you, she would have to figure it out like an adult. ..

 

Anyoneelse, did you actually read this and think about BP’s point?

 

Decades together and you’ve seen the result. Hard to escape the fact that your current relationship not good for either one of you and on that basis alone, change would make the most sense. Stop saying “I can’t” and take things one step at a time...

 

Mr. Lucky

[anyoneelse]

I guess you did not read my post...

 

You are enabling her, if it was not for you, she would have to figure it out like an adult.

 

I HAVE LIVED THIS. IT WILL EAT YOUR SOUL, IT WILL SUCK THE LIFE OUT OF YOU.

 

If you are a loving father, you will get your kids out of this situation.

 

AND THE COURTS ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE THE KIDS TO A MENTALLY ILL WOMAN.

 

I worried about the same stuff.

 

Get yourself and your kids out of this situation...

 

Hard to read, but thanks.

[anyoneelse]

Anyoneelse, did you actually read this and think about BP’s point?

 

Decades together and you’ve seen the result. Hard to escape the fact that your current relationship not good for either one of you and on that basis alone, change would make the most sense. Stop saying “I can’t” and take things one step at a time...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Yes, my first instinct is to say there isn't a rational adult inside her. I get it, it's very hard to see that some of this is my fault, but I get it. Too many years hoping that the next doctor visit will be the one that brings back the woman I fell in love with.

[anyoneelse]

Psychologists and other therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. This withholding of information is no secret inside the psychiatric community.

 

It has been discussed in academic articles for decades. See, e.g., the classic 1992 Dartmouth Medical School article at The Beginning of Wisdom Is Never Calling a Patient a Borderline. Twenty years later, a forum of resident doctors discusses this very same issue at Do You Tell Your Borderline Patients about Their Diagnosis?

 

Also see the 2015 Minnesota study, BPD: The Frequency of Disclosure and the Choice to Disclose. That study interviewed 170 licensed therapists, 74% of which are psychologists. It finds that only 30% of them say that they "always" tell BPDers their diagnosis -- and 31% say that they "usually" tell them.

 

If she is a BPDer, what you saw at the beginning likely was sincere. Her infatuation convinced her that you were the nearly perfect man who had arrived to rescue her from unhappiness. In that way, the infatuation held her two fears at bay. Yet, as soon as the infatuation started to evaporate -- typically about 4 to 6 months into the relationship -- both fears returned and you started triggering them.

 

In addition to the abandonment fear discussed above, a BPDer has a second great fear: that of engulfment. The existence of this second fear puts you in a hopeless predicament because the two fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

 

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Although a BPDer craves intimacy like nearly everyone else, she is too immature to handle it for very long.

 

This is why a BPDer will push you away -- by creating an argument over nothing -- immediately after an intimate evening or great weekend, or right in the middle of a wonderful vacation. And this is why a BPDer typically exhibits her very WORST behavior immediately after (if not during) the very BEST of times.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. Sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering those two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.

 

If your W has full-blown BPD, her emotional development likely was frozen at about age four. This is why your marriage has essentially been a parent/child relationship, not a husband/wife relationship.

 

Toward that end, I offer several suggestions:

 

First, read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce will get very nasty very quickly.

 

Second, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful is the "Family Law, Custody, Co-Parenting, Divorce" board. If your W is a BPDer, she likely will be so vindictive that she will engage in parental alienation, trying to turn your children against you.

 

Third, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Doing What's Best for the Kids and Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

 

Fourth, for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend an online blog by a psychiatric nurse. It provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at BPD on the Behavioral Unit. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with many BPDers for hours every work day.

 

Fifth, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and your two kids are dealing with. By seeing your own psychologist -- who has not treated or seen your W -- you are assured that he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.

 

Sixth, if you believe your W has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer.

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us here on this LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

 

Thanks for all of that. I've been sitting in the basement trying to post and read all of this stuff and feeling tremendous guilt. It's worse than trying to surf porn and not get caught. I have a lot of can'ts, it's so clear to some of you but it's not from the inside. I get that this is abuse, I now get that I'm not losing my mind despite how convincing she can be. I get that I'm not doing anything to deserve this or to cause it.

 

I just need to wrap my head around how this is going to work. I'm a planner by nature and the first step to this is eluding me so far. I know it's going to get nasty and that scares me. I know after the nasty, things will eventually get better. I'm done with this relationship, I can admit that now. I don't want to know the whys or hows of what she is, I just want out. I'll never trust her again. I'll always be waiting for the blow up with her. If there was a pill to fix it all and all she had to do was take it, the damage is done at this point.

 

I'll be working in the office all day today, so I'll try and put some thought into a plan. I need it to be firm in my mind because when I do talk to her, it's not going to be smooth or kind or rational. I'll drop in this afternoon, thanks for the help and swift kicks all.

[mrs rubble]

I agree with the others, you need out ASAP. I've also been in a relationship like this. I was also scared to get out of it, fortunately for me, my son called the police when my ex-husband assaulted him one night and that was the end of that.....if she assaults you again, call the police and let her deal with the consequences. It could be your easiest way out of this misery.

[brigit87]

We had a group of friends years ago we spent every weekend with. She acted so happy and loving there. It was one of the reasons I liked going over there and I was always sad when we left and that happy and loving person disappeared. One of the wives was very pretty and dressed sexily and it was often "I saw how you looked at her" afterwards.

 

I could go on, but she has literally all of those. I feel bad for her, but I want out so badly.

 

It's hard to diagnose anyone online. Maybe she has BPD or maybe not. In any case if you want out then divorce her.

[BaileyB]

The first step is to meet with a lawyer for a free consultation. Put your questions together - others on this board who have done it can help you to know what to ask. Once you have met with a lawyer, you can start to put a plan in place.

[Daisy2013]

You sound almost exactly like a friend of mine in his marriage. I thought it was him at first, but just a few differences. He stays because that is what is expected. He's miserable and has accepted his life to be this way. She has worn him down. He can't even enjoy personal activities or visit family without her being negative so he doesn't do any of those things to keep peace.

 

If talking to her doesn't help maybe you should consider what you need. I know marriage is supposed to be forever, but darn. Life is too short. Wishing you well with what you choose.

[Whodatdog]

I would suggest that whatever you do, dont engage in her word wars. Dont let her get you so riled up that you lash back. I think you now realize that the marriage is over, and the next step is your exit plan. Dont let her derail that, and dont let her guilt you. She can get a job and support herself, she just doesnt want to. People do it every day. What if you walk out the door and get hit by a bus tomorrow? She would have to figure out a way to pay her bills. She can do it, she just has to be forced to do it.

[BaileyB]

I would suggest that whatever you do, dont engage in her word wars. Dont let her get you so riled up that you lash back. I think you now realize that the marriage is over, and the next step is your exit plan. Dont let her derail that, and dont let her guilt you.

 

I wouldn't talk to her at all - there is nothing to be gained at this point except a fight. Why put yourself throught that? I wouldn't give her the satisfaction.

 

After you have talked with the lawyer and you have your ducks in a row... serve her the divorce papers. The time for talking has long passed...

Edited July 31, 2018 by BaileyB

[anyoneelse]

I'm worried that she might take my kids and disappear to Texas with them. Do I talk to them before talking to her, let them know to dial 911 if she tries that? I'm also afraid she will take all our money and leave me unable to pay bills, do I go remove her from the joint account?

 

Is that really the best way to handle this, just get a lawyer and file papers? Someone else suggested not blindsiding her with that. I don;t want my kids to see their mom thrown out of the house, but I don;t see an alternative to that. I don't want this to drag out for months.

[stillafool]

Yes I would inform the kids to call you or Police if she tries to take them out of state. Definitely protect your money.

[BaileyB]

I'm worried that she might take my kids and disappear to Texas with them. Do I talk to them before talking to her, let them know to dial 911 if she tries that? I'm also afraid she will take all our money and leave me unable to pay bills, do I go remove her from the joint account?

 

Is that really the best way to handle this, just get a lawyer and file papers? Someone else suggested not blindsiding her with that. I don;t want my kids to see their mom thrown out of the house, but I don;t see an alternative to that. I don't want this to drag out for months.

 

Your lawyer will advise you of the best way to protect your money. I would not talk to the children before you talk to the lawyer.

[BluesPower]

I'm worried that she might take my kids and disappear to Texas with them. Do I talk to them before talking to her, let them know to dial 911 if she tries that? I'm also afraid she will take all our money and leave me unable to pay bills, do I go remove her from the joint account?

 

Is that really the best way to handle this, just get a lawyer and file papers? Someone else suggested not blindsiding her with that. I don;t want my kids to see their mom thrown out of the house, but I don;t see an alternative to that. I don't want this to drag out for months.

 

Get a freaking lawyer... And file, that way if she takes the kids, then you can go to the court.

 

Listen, I understand that you are having a hard time.

 

I could write 100 pages to help you understand, but I won't. You need to trust us that we have lived through this.

 

But listen, you are being a very WEAK man about all of this, and maybe that is your nature, but NOW is the time to take charge of your life for your freaking kids...

 

Of the many regrets that I have, the worst is the constant worry that any long term problems that my children may have from me trying to take care of my wife and raising the kids in that household.

 

They and I may never understand how much damage I did to my children by keeping them in that household with a crazy woman.

 

I carry great guilt for this.

 

Let me give you a story that I have told before.

 

One day, my youngest (about 17 at the time) said, "Wow, today was a pretty good day, mom did not do anything crazy". I said, "Yes you are right".

 

Then I thought about it, and I came back and said, "Son, how F'ed up is it that we think it was a good day when mom does not go crazy that day".

 

That is not normal, but it became OUR normal. I will never be able to forgive myself for allowing that...

[brigit87]

One day, my youngest (about 17 at the time) said, "Wow, today was a pretty good day, mom did not do anything crazy". I said, "Yes you are right".

 

 

That's pretty sad.

 

OP, do take her behavior seriously and protect yourself.

[Whodatdog]

Definitely talk to a lawyer, so you know legally what you can do. Im pretty sure she can't be kicked out of the house at any stage. And as far as the money, I thought you said you were in charge of the money and you gave her an allowance? If you feel there is a real danger of her taking all the money so you cant pay bills, open up another account with only you on it, and put the money there. That way you can pay the bills out of that account.

[BaileyB]

Im pretty sure she can't be kicked out of the house at any stage.

 

If you decide to buy her out of the house, she will have to leave.

 

Or, you can decide to sell the house and divide the assets.

 

But, that is a decision for another day... When you talk with your lawyer and settle your divorce. Until then, you will likely be a basement dweller...