Where is it all going?

[snapshotwonder]

I used to have an LS account but could not gain access to it so I created a new one.

 

Here are the basic facts I am a 30 year old female and he is a 27 year old male. we have been together 2 1/2 years and got engaged a year ago. I moved in 2 weeks after we got engaged and a month later he lost his job due to a prior injury that resurfaced from his service in the marines. he could not be medically cleared to go back to work.

 

He struggled for a bit and only worked part time jobs as that was all he could find. Finally a few months later he was able to secure a position in a similar line of work and is actually getting paid better than before. During that initial time despite my best efforts I could not afford to cover all his expenses as well as my own. So several weeks later he moved in with his parents (i didnt feel comfortable living there even though they are nice people) and I moved in with my sister.

 

He is loyal, caring, loving, and trustworthy but I am concerned that these issues of bad money management are becoming insurmountable. As far as I know he has only set aside a very small sum of money in all that time. This only transpired recently as I have been getting on him more abut improving his finances. I love him but I feel like we have become static because no progress has been made in any of the important issues.

 

As of right now we do do not have a date set because I am waiting to for him to contribute his share to for the wedding. I don't want a big wedding just nice simple one. I am frustrated because its been an entire year and no plans have been made. He has been working at his new job for 8 months and has not had any major expenses with the exception of buying a less than stellar car since his previous car broke down.( A car is needed where we live) Something I cautioned him against since it was old and I suspected it was going to require a lot of work. It does. Hindsight being what it is he now admits he should not have bought it and waited for a better car. In all the time he has been back at his parents he has not had to pay rent.

 

As much of an annoyance as the wedding stuff is that is not the true crux of the situation. It is how he is handling his money since it impacts everything else. I have been telling as many ways possible and as nicely or sometimes more aggressively that it could be a problem for our future for the last 5 months. Still no real progress. I am starting to have doubts about our relationship. I don't know how much more is a reasonable amount of time give him. I don't want to give up on our relationship b/c I know marriage can be hard, but if he does not change what can I do? I have seen so many people post about finances becoming a reason for the ending of a relationship.

[Simple Logic]

Marriages typically end over money, sex, religion, and politics. Move on, it won’t get better.

[Lotsgoingon]

This issue is definitely a problem and won't go away unless faced directly and then worked on.

 

So he hasn't put forward any of his share of the money for the wedding. You're waiting. Definitely not a good sign.

 

You don't raise this, but you have to consider whether he is hiding behind his money issue as a way of not moving forward on the marriage.

 

You're not extreme or out of line to consider his money management a major potentially relationship-breaking problem. Do you know how he spends his money?

 

He's living with his parents paying little to no rent most likely, probably not paying full food costs ... and he's making more than he ever has ... and he's having trouble saving for the wedding. That's a real problem.

 

The thing is, he could set up an electronic transfer each month or each week or whatever ... to a joint account you guys create for the marriage. A friend of mine gives his brother money each month via electronic transfer ... because the electronic aspect takes away the personal messiness of giving and receiving money between siblings.

 

Anyway, this issue is worth full attention ... and can be worth a breakup ... because you're going to face this in the marriage right away.

 

And it's not your job to fix this ... or treat him like a parent treats a wayward kid. He's got to own this issue.

 

It sucks when we find someone who's great, that we like a lot, that we're even willing to marry ... and then we learn about a problem like managing money ... damn!

 

So do you have any idea how he is spending his money? Any chance on another woman ... or on strip clubs or some other activity he is hiding from you?

Edited August 3, 2018 by Lotsgoingon

[snapshotwonder]

I have had a look into his finances but not the full on review. For a period of time he had no money to contribute. He works hard but the problem is he spends it as soon as he gets paid. I have tried getting to set up a joint bank account but that didn't take off in the earlier stages. He started to contribute but it was small amounts and only once in a while. I have given multiple suggestions. He only recently started to fix his credit and the numbers are not very good. It is going to take a long time to get a decent score.

 

I don't want to be his parent. Before I use to try to help and handle things but I don't want to mommy him, he should be a partner. Ive stepped off doing a lot of things as I am starting to reach my limit.I don't think this is about backing off on the marriage. I just think things have become comfortable and he is in no rush.

 

I am pretty sure he isn't spending it on porn, drugs or strip clubs. When he is not at my place he is at work. Every so often we are at his parents buts mostly my place. He doesn't go out with friends or anything either. I really believe he spends most of him money carelessly on food or other incidentals. He likes to cook and can easily drop $40-60 dollars just making dinner. I have tried to get him to budget but it gets old having to get on him everytime we shop for dinner or go out.

Edited August 3, 2018 by snapshotwonder
more information

[Mr. Lucky]

I am pretty sure he isn't spending it on porn, drugs or strip clubs. When he is not at my place he is at work. Every so often we are at his parents buts mostly my place. He doesn't go out with friends or anything either. I really believe he spends most of him money carelessly on food or other incidentals. He likes to cook and can easily drop $40-60 dollars just making dinner. I have tried to get him to budget but it gets old having to get on him everytime we shop for dinner or go out.

 

The math still doesn't seem to add up. Let's say he's making $40K annually - unless he's dining at Nobu, food alone wouldn't account for the shortfall you describe.

 

Marriage means combining finances, something you can't do without the faith he'll be a decent partner. My guess is you'll either have to do some forensic accounting - or seriously consider walking away. Sorry...

 

Mr. Lucky

[snapshotwonder]

The math still doesn't seem to add up. Let's say he's making $40K annually - unless he's dining at Nobu, food alone wouldn't account for the shortfall you describe.

 

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I agree that it doesn't fully account for where its all going. Thats why I am so confused. In the time that we have been together I have never seen any red flag behaviors. He is just plain bad with money so far as I can tell. I know there are expenses that he pays regularly but without looking at his financial records and examining every purchase directly I still dont know. He tends to splurge too much on things here and there but even then it still can not be all of it. For example he has doubled down on Netflix and Hulu. I know it seems small but you only really need one. He pays storage, cell phone, and some other regular bills I have access to but he does paperless banking.

 

Its pretty much come to a breaking point for me and I am preparing to ask for full access to his accounts. I have never had an issue with lying on his side of things. I have never found anything that would indicate a second life or other women. I just dont know where it all goes.

Edited August 3, 2018 by snapshotwonder
grammer

[Lotsgoingon]

So if you're going to request access to the bank accounts, I would encourage you to follow these precautions.

 

You can suggest changes ... but don't berate ... and don't get emotionally entangled in his finances. Suggest and back off ...

 

BTW: does he know that his financial issues have you concerned about marriage? What does he say? Is he promising change? Is he just nodding "I know I need to change?" What is his reaction to your alarm about his money?

 

You're in a tough spot ... I can't really see anything you're doing wrong ... I hate to have brought up the possibility that he's spending his money in ways that he hides from you ... But that's what this board is for: helping us see around our own blind spots.

 

Reminds me of conflicts over money I had with my ex-wife. Funny, both of us were disorganized around money ... but in order to survive, one of us had to step up to be the budget person, so I took on this role.

 

I was simply trying to get an accounting of where our money was going ... and I just knew she was hiding money she was spending on clothes. She had great taste in clothes, and I was fine with her spending money there ... but first, I just wanted to know where she and I were spending her money ... Just neutrally, here is where we are ... So if we wanted more savings or more travel money, we could figure out our options.

 

But she would always "forget" to track her spending. I could never get her to trust me that I merely wanted to start with a neutral accounting. Only later did it come to me that she was most likely deliberately hiding a lot of her spending from me ... not forgetting but hiding.

 

Just another example of the complex dynamics surrounding couples and money.

[Mr. Lucky]

Just another example of the complex dynamics surrounding couples and money.

 

snapshotwonder, the advantage you have is that you're not yet a couple, at least not in the legal sense.

 

One mistake couples make is marrying with major unresolved differences regarding finances, sex, children, lifestyle, etc., often under the theory "it will all work out".

 

Trust me, it usually doesn't. I think you're on the right track...

 

Mr. Lucky

[OatsAndHall]

Finances can be tricky to work around when married so I suggest that you sit down with him and have a serious talk about what is going on. At this point in time, he's free to spend his money (outside of what he needs to contribute to the wedding..) but that is going to change when you two get married. And, I can guarantee it will be a point of contention if you don't sort it out before saying "I do".

 

 

There are few things worse in a marriage than fighting over money, especially if you're the conscientious one that is responsible with income. My ex-wife was terrible with money (her words: "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE WORK SO HARD TO EARN THE MONEY IF WE'RE NOT GOING TO SPEND IT!!") and I grew very tired of being the hard a-- when it came to finances. It gets frustrating when you're trying to be the adult with money (pay off debt, build a savings account, make investments for the future..) but you're continually the villain for doing so. I realized I dodged a huge bullet during the discovery phase of our divorce when I saw how much credit card debt she had racked up in her name. I had no idea she even had those credit cards as she was paying them off through her private business account which I didn't have access to.

 

 

 

So, again, sit down with him and express your concerns in a firm but adult manner and see if he makes some changes. I wouldn't tip toe around this issue as this could become a serious issue down the road. A serious issue that could leave you in a bad financial situation.

[Lotsgoingon]

I wouldn't tip toe around this issue as this could become a serious issue down the road. A serious issue that could leave you in a bad financial situation.

 

 

OatsAndHall nails it. Nothing worse than a broken heart ... except a broken heart and a broken bank account brought about by the spending habits of an ex.

[OatsAndHall]

OatsAndHall nails it. Nothing worse than a broken heart ... except a broken heart and a broken bank account brought about by the spending habits of an ex.

 

 

Yes indeed. I hate to come across as the harbinger of doom but divorce can absolutely lead to financial ruin if one partner doesn't have their sh-t together when it comes to money. And, the fights that lead up to that bad of a situation are nasty. Again, it's not fun when you're the responsible one in the relationship and are being accused of being greedy and what-not.

[d0nnivain]

Is he getting any disability money from the VA? If the original injury was caused when he was on active duty with the Marines he is entitled to VA benefits -- monthly money payments & he may be eligible to obtain health insurance through a government program for disabled vets, depending on the extent of the injury.

 

Do ask again about making a budget but do not marry until you get the money thing under control.

[BaileyB]

I have tried to get him to budget but it gets old having to get on him everytime we shop for dinner or go out.

 

With all due respect, you are not his mother. You should not have to teach him how to budget and manage his money.

 

I have a friend who was in a similar situation... She tried to help him to develop and follow a budget - it didn't work and caused significant conflict in their relationship. She ended the relationship in large part because she refused to move in with this man, she didn't want to finance his life or become responsible for his debts.

[Bufo]

The wedding expense contributions are the lesser evil here. No matter how much or little you choose to spend on a wedding it’s all over and done at midnight. Like Cinderella’s Ball.

 

Then comes the real world of finances like house payments, car payments and the biggest of all: kid expenses. The never ending treadmill. Don’t think a wedding ring on his finger is going to change his money habits. Unless you become his banker and give him only a fixed allowance you should figure out if you’ll be happy living with his mother indefinitely.

 

I broke off an engagement once because of her indifference to money matters. Trhnamfuy my wife and I discussed money before the wedding as we knew we were on the same page. No arguments on that topic in 30 years.

[Mr. Lucky]

I have a friend who was in a similar situation... She tried to help him to develop and follow a budget - it didn't work and caused significant conflict in their relationship.

 

It should be noted he has the right to spend his own money any way he pleases. Just as the OP has the right to rethink the relationship if she doesn't agree with those decisions.

 

As has already been stated, issues like this are much harder to address after you've said "I do"...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BaileyB]

It should be noted he has the right to spend his own money any way he pleases. Just as the OP has the right to rethink the relationship if she doesn't agree with those decisions.

 

As has already been stated, issues like this are much harder to address after you've said "I do"...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Could not agree more.

[snapshotwonder]

I appreciate all your feed back on this issue. There is a lot to respond to in the commentary but the long in short of it is that I have had and tried to have serious talks about "our future". I am not one to easily get carried away with emotions so I attempt to make these conversations as calm and productive as I can. The problem is that he never has any real answers. I let this go the first two times but called him out on it since then. A non-answer is now what speaks volumes.

 

I am not naive to the fact that the wedding is of small concern it the grand scheme of things. It is just one more annoying fact of the reality of the situation. I am still waiting for him to get enough money so we can move into our place. I will not move in together until he gets it together financially. I have had these feelings for a while and find myself struggling to put a definitive end to the relationship.

 

When we were still in the dating process I made sure to have all those important talk ahead of time so that there was no confusion on either side. He always agreed that I was better at handling finances so that would be left to me. Unfortunately, I feel like I was sold a false bill of goods because at least then he had it covered or at least on the surface. Its a hard situation because although we are getting married we are not yet married so its not like he has to show me everything. I will admit I may balk if I was in his position. Although if I ask for specifics he generally will provide me with answers.

 

As for the VA stuff. He is considered a 100% disabled and has filed paperwork for such benefits but it is a long process. This is his third time filing as they claimed the last time he was missing documentation which he originally provided. I am not familiar with how it works so I just remind him to check up on it every couple of months.

[Mr. Lucky]

Its a hard situation because although we are getting married we are not yet married so its not like he has to show me everything. I will admit I may balk if I was in his position.

 

I'm not sure I agree with either this statement or the approach it implies. If you wait until you're married to be "shown everything", it's too late if your partner been less than forthcoming. It doesn't make sense during an engagement to hold back sexually, emotionally or spiritually - why hold back financially?

 

Mr. Lucky

[snapshotwonder]

I think I may have not explained myself as clearly as I may have intended.I think it was more about the implication of trust in not having to reveal a full financial history. Under normal circumstance where there were no financial issues I don't think I would press for bank statements but seemingly take him at his word for how much he may or may not have. I would definitely ask what the numbers are or any other important details but I would not necessarily need the paperwork to back it up.The reason being if you can not trust who you are with then you should not be with them.

 

I understand that even getting engaged would suggest the idea of transparency. I have never had a reason not to trust him. There has never been any sneaky or secretive behavior, no lying or the like. It should also be noted I have also never outright asked to see the paperwork. I have asked questions about how much, what was your check this pay period, what is saved, etc. Now I need to and will ask. I had hoped he would get a handle on it before I had to.

[BTDT2012]

As for the VA stuff. He is considered a 100% disabled and has filed paperwork for such benefits but it is a long process. This is his third time filing as they claimed the last time he was missing documentation which he originally provided. I am not familiar with how it works so I just remind him to check up on it every couple of months.

 

 

How would he get a rating without completing the process? The fact that you have to remind him to follow up on getting money that he is entitled to is a big red flag.

[Lotsgoingon]

Frankly, it would be smart if we added an engagement ritual: Show each other our financial records.

 

The thorny issue of finances pre-marriage lies with the fact that often we lie to ourselves about our finances.

 

How are your finances: I'm all right. Yeah right.

 

Since it is so easy to lie to ourselves, it makes sense if we really showed our financial records to a partner ahead of time--a chance to get us to stop lying to ourselves--and to avoid lying and misleading a future spouse.

 

True story: a friend of mine--and I don't know how he got away with this--somehow misled his soon-to-be fiance about his finances. I say "misled" because I don't think she ever directly asked him details of his financial situation.

 

So my buddy was procrastinating on popping the question, asking her to get married. His problem wasn't so much ambivalence as the reality that he simply didn't have the money to afford an engagement ring and for whatever immature reason, refused to come clean.

 

So girlfriend sets a deadline on him. Propose to me by X date or I'm outta here.

 

I thought for sure my buddy would take this deadline as an opportunity to come clean about his money problems. He didn't. They schedule a dinner on the night of her deadline, and he goes into the dinner--where he was supposed to present a ring--and finally tells her that he doesn't have money to buy her a ring.

 

She flips at first ... but then calms down ... This woman is incredibly organized around money and a huge saver. So she picks out the ring she wants, and puts him on a monthly payment plan. I kid you not. But frankly, I'm not sure my buddy was able to follow through on the payment plan because he lost his job sometime during this period.

 

Anyway, they are married now ... he found a really good job ... I haven't asked if he has fully paid off the ring--to his wife!