Mediation or lawyer?

[McGee]

Hi all,

 

I've lurked on and off here for almost two years. I hope this is the right forum for my question.

 

I've asked my wife for a divorce. We've known each other for over 25 years and married a little over 19 of those.

 

Without divulging how we got here, I'll just say that it was all me and I got detached and checked out of the marriage. I still love her, but not as a spouse... just as a friend. We also don't have kids.

 

I work full-time and she has a part-time job. I make about 10x her income.

 

Anyway, I've thought about going the mediation route. There's no bad blood and we're not trying to screw each other out of money or assets. I want her to be well taken care of financially after the fact. I think she and I could divide the assets in a fair and equitable way on our own. We've already talked about some of those items.

 

The other option would be to go through a local law firm that offers "divorce for grown-ups". The attorney charges $6000 flat fee and takes care of the process. The only caveat is that she couldn't represent both of us. She told us that she represents the person with the lower income, which would be my wife.

 

As much as I trust my wife to not be vindictive during the process, I would feel somewhat exposed without representation. This attorney said that if I wanted representation, I could always hire my own lawyer. Neither of us wants to get into paying unnecessary attorney's fees when we really don't have anything we disagree about regarding assets, etc.

 

Just looking for someone to figure out the amount of support, half equity, and half retirement plan, etc.

 

Which would be the better option? Which would be the quickest and least expensive?

 

We have talked about maintaining a friendship after it's all over.

 

This whole thing sucks any way you cut it. We just don't want to make it worse. We live in the State of Washington.

 

Thank you all in advance.

Edited August 23, 2018 by McGee
Grammar

[carhill]

Any family law self-help at your courthouse?

 

Mediator would be good to float first IMO. See how that goes. You'll be able to tell right away if settlement negotiations will proceed amicably or not.

 

Do you have a mandatory cooling off/separation period in your jurisdiction? In ours, filing started a six-month cooling off period so, even if we had things settled out in a week, we couldn't finalize the dissolution for six months.

 

We ended up using a mediator referred by the family law department at the court and he worked out great. Had the MSA prepared to file in a couple weeks after session. I did pay my lawyer to review it. That was about eight years ago.

[McGee]

Any family law self-help at your courthouse?

 

Mediator would be good to float first IMO. See how that goes. You'll be able to tell right away if settlement negotiations will proceed amicably or not.

 

Do you have a mandatory cooling off/separation period in your jurisdiction? In ours, filing started a six-month cooling off period so, even if we had things settled out in a week, we couldn't finalize the dissolution for six months.

 

We ended up using a mediator referred by the family law department at the court and he worked out great. Had the MSA prepared to file in a couple weeks after session. I did pay my lawyer to review it. That was about eight years ago.

 

carhill,

 

Thanks for the quick reply and your input. I'll look into the family law self-help and see what I can find.

 

As far as the cooling-off thing goes, it takes only 90 days in this state.

 

Did you have just one mediation session?

[carhill]

Yes, we had done all our work prior, even to the point of settling out our various real estate holdings/assets/accounts/debts, etc and it was simply a matter of providing appropriate documents, going through everything and the mediator going through the legalities. Took just over an hour if memory serves, most of that parsing out agreements/evidence on anything potentially co-mingled.

 

If you go into mediation, bring in a complete list of all major assets and debts, including pre-marital assets and debts. Yeah, I know there's a lot of little stuff too but if you all can agree on the big stuff, that should cover things. Forex, we didn't list little stuff like household stuff since she had her stuff at her place (most of the stuff from our country place) and I had my own stuff. We were happy with that. Again it goes back to being amicable.

 

If you have minor kids, more complex but still mediation can work. Just a few more details to iron out.

 

You've been together a long time. If you're done, cool, no rush. Get started and take it one day at a time. It'll be 90 days until dissolution anyway.

[Ronni_W]

McGee,

 

I'm sorry that you are going through it.

 

I would say that you did not get here all by yourself. It does not ever happen in a vacuum.

 

You are correct in your sense that you (between the both of you) do not need to pay $6,000. When I approached a divorce attorney, he, at first, thought that I was nuts for having a very similar attitude and approach to what I'm interpreting yours is; however, we still do need to practical, and that's why we pay the lawyers. <lol>.

 

Your spouse does need to protect herself, and thus the requirement for her own representation. She is as exposed as you feel, had you not had your own representation.

In my case, I was actually the one who said to my now-ex, "For your own good, you should hire a lawyer to look over these documents before you sign them." (As with you, we also did not have children, so that made it a lot simpler - no matter how we were going to cut the proverbial 'pie'.)

 

For my divorce attorney it seemed to come down to the question, "What if you won the big lottery, and you have not put in any conditions about finances?" My instinctive answer was, "Well...I'd split it with him!" (In my mind, "Of course...why on Earth wouldn't I?)

 

So, if you feel that way, then you just need to find the proper attorney for you and your soon-to-be-ex. She can either then hire another attorney to sign off on what you and your attorney have already put together, (which my ex did), or to contest it - if she wants to go that route (which my ex didn't). The whole thing cost us, together, less than $1,000. (But, add a bit for attorney cost-of-living since 2001 .)

 

Way back then, I did also use published/available 'self-help' divorce resources, as carhill suggested...whatever is currently available may also be, of course, of more guidance and assistance.

 

Wishing you the best.

[McGee]

Thank you, Ronni.

[FMW]

I was married 23 years, no kids. We worked out all the details between the two of us but I paid an attorney to actually handle all the filings just to make sure everything was taken care of correctly and would be final.

 

I think it cost me about $5000 - $6000 all together, but that included additional paperwork and filings for my ex husband to receive part of my 401(k). But the money was worth it to me for the peace of mind.

[carhill]

OP, while at the court, check out the filing fees and fee waivers, if any. If your wife's income qualifies, she might get a good deal on filing fees. When we filed it was just under 500 bucks with the sheriff serving the lawsuit. Neither of us qualified for waivers. An answer (normal for contested) cost the same. With successful mediation, one can check into the default pathway on a mediation prepared initial filing. That can save fees as well.

[Mumbles]

My first wife and I mostly managed this ourselves. Ultimately though, I think there is benefit having a low price/low level involvement from a lawyer on both sides. Just to ensure that everything lines up legally and that your own interests are not being subverted in any way.

 

We didn't start this way, but ended this way. Emotions do run a bit high as things progress through the process. We mostly kept it together during, but, it was worth a thousand or so just to keep everything on the straight and narrow.

 

Just make it abundantly clear, and keep reinforcing to the lawyer(s) that its amicable and that their involvement needs to be at a minimum level - keep costs and the risk of escalation low.

[Mr. Lucky]

I work full-time and she has a part-time job. I make about 10x her income.

 

 

I'm going to assume your wife doesn't make pennies, so 10X her earnings is a substantial six-figure income. As such, you each should have representation. If the split is amicable and you both do your homework in advance, you should be able to keep it in the $5-6K neighborhood and, as Finding my way said, have peace of mind going forward.

 

With assets and income involved, doesn't pay to cut corners...

 

Mr. Lucky

[d0nnivain]

Law is not a self help proposition.

 

Find a lawyer who practices something call Collaborative divorce & hire that person to go to mediation with you.

[preraph]

One question. Once she knows you're divorcing, if she happened to start dating someone while the process was ongoing, are you still going to be fair and equitable, or is that going to male you mad and miserly?

 

I think it's going to be up to your wife to decide if she wants to trust you on that or not. I like the idea of the $6000 deal though with her representing your wife. As long as you're confident circumstances won't change your desire to be fair and take care of her financially, that would be a good way to go. Good luck.

[McGee]

Thank you all for the replies and input.

 

Yes, I earn $150K - $170K depending on how much I want to work.

 

No, I wouldn't be mad if she started dating.

 

In one of our recent conversations, she asked me how I would feel if she had an affair. I said I would feel indifferent.

 

This sounds cold, but at this point, I almost would prefer that she find someone else and move on. She wouldn't though, because she's still very much attached and has mentioned before that she'd prefer no dating by either of us until it's over.

[carhill]

OP, question? Is your and your wife's apparent income disparity a choice or is she currently under-employed? 15-17K per year is at or slightly above the MedicAid poverty level. If she's at full employment, I'd propose a cash injection equal to the poverty level of a single person so any earnings she makes are superior, and for three years, terminating upon remarriage. 12 x 1400 = 16.8K + 17K = 33.8K before taxes. In addition she'd get half of any marital property/assets. Retirement would be negotiable. An additional bonus for her is due to the length of your M, she'll be able to collect on your high earnings when SS rolls around at half your benefit amount as long as she meets certain conditions.

 

Another big area is health care. I'd float paying for her health insurance premiums (if her employer doesn't provide them gratis) for the same period.

 

This program is very similar to the deal my exW and H2 hammered out when they got divorced. When we met, he was paying her monthly alimony and covering her health insurance. She had gone back to school and started her own business during that time. That stuff terminated when we got married.

 

IMO, if you/she can sit down and discuss this stuff in a matter of fact manner, either prior to or during a mediation session, an amicable divorce, with or without mediation, can result. If not, hire separate attorneys, figure 30-50 grand in attorney's/forensic accounting fees and court costs and go that route. The clearest indicator to me of how things will go is if she insists on maintaining her marital lifestyle on your nickel after divorce, or not. If she does, don't bother with the low-cost route IMO. Waste of time.

[preraph]

I'm not sure what's right for you, but I want to make sure you understand that in mediation, the mediator never takes one person's side or the other. They simply decide on the best compromise, so everyone wins AND everyone loses. Hope that helps a little. It might be right for you, though.

[carhill]

Yep, mediators help achieve a legally enforceable mutual agreement. That's all. They aren't advocates for any side. That's what private lawyers are for. Our mediator was a lawyer but didn't work for either of us, rather provided a service to prepare the settlement agreement in proper legal form.

[McGee]

OP, question? Is your and your wife's apparent income disparity a choice or is she currently under-employed? 15-17K per year is at or slightly above the MedicAid poverty level. If she's at full employment, I'd propose a cash injection equal to the poverty level of a single person so any earnings she makes are superior, and for three years, terminating upon remarriage. 12 x 1400 = 16.8K + 17K = 33.8K before taxes. In addition she'd get half of any marital property/assets. Retirement would be negotiable. An additional bonus for her is due to the length of your M, she'll be able to collect on your high earnings when SS rolls around at half your benefit amount as long as she meets certain conditions.

 

Another big area is health care. I'd float paying for her health insurance premiums (if her employer doesn't provide them gratis) for the same period.

 

This program is very similar to the deal my exW and H2 hammered out when they got divorced. When we met, he was paying her monthly alimony and covering her health insurance. She had gone back to school and started her own business during that time. That stuff terminated when we got married.

 

IMO, if you/she can sit down and discuss this stuff in a matter of fact manner, either prior to or during a mediation session, an amicable divorce, with or without mediation, can result. If not, hire separate attorneys, figure 30-50 grand in attorney's/forensic accounting fees and court costs and go that route. The clearest indicator to me of how things will go is if she insists on maintaining her marital lifestyle on your nickel after divorce, or not. If she does, don't bother with the low-cost route IMO. Waste of time.

 

Carhill,

 

Thanks for running some numbers regarding bringing up her income to a respectable level. I expect to be making support payments for 5 years, based on how long we've been married.

 

She has health insurance through her employer, which is really nice for a part-time position. Also, she's going to be applying for a full-time position soon, which also has a higher hourly rate. I'm not sure if this will happen before the divorce is final though.

 

She has no desire to maintain the current marital lifestyle. She's talking about renting an apartment, etc. already.

 

Neither of us wants to spend big bucks on lawyers.

 

The last piece of the equation is buying out her 1/2 of the equity. I'm very ignorant when it comes to this subject matter. How do most people do this? Make monthly payments for several years? Or take out something like a HELOC, so that she gets a nice lump sum payment and has a big cash infusion right away?

 

But I digress.

 

Thanks again everyone for your input.

[carhill]

IME, the intended future resident refinances the real estate pursuant to the marital settlement agreement, after dissolution, then pays the requisite agreed amount to the other party in escrow, a quit claim deed is recorded by the party releasing interest and the purchaser gains ownership interest as a divorced person in severality with a deed of trust recorded in favor of the lender. The whole deal can be done in one escrow. The sticking point for most deals is the purchaser qualifying for the necessary loan amount on their own. Likely not an issue for you.

 

The particulars vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but any real estate lawyer would likely be able to give you solid parameters in an introductory interview. If you feel you need a lawyer to handle that, it should be pretty low cost.

 

In our case, I funded the purchase money for my exW's house from a refinance of my historical residence, one I owned many years prior to getting married, and filed a quit claim deed as part of that transaction, even though we were married at the time, and she took title as a married person as sole and separate property and we listed and apportioned that property in the MSA to reflect what had occurred and our agreement regarding it. That was one small transaction of many. They all have their own stuff to do.

 

Generally, problems arise when people don't agree and money is involved and people get greedy or are the target of greedy people. We all generally live to benefit ourselves and any partnerships are entered into with that as part of the deal. When they go sideways, then we revert back to being solely self-interested. Every couple is different with how they process that out. Some go their separate ways peacefully. Others battle for years. Only way to know how it'll go is get started and expect anything. Hope for the best and plan for the rest.

[McGee]

Carhill,

 

You are a wealth of information. Thanks a million.