masculine and feminine, dominant and submissive

[lovebitme]

What's the difference? This subject comes up here all the time in regards to dating and what a woman finds attractive in a man. But in the real world I don't find it to be so cut and dry.

 

First, I think we can all agree that women are overwhelmingly attracted to masculine and dominant men. Do a Love Shack search on it and you will see. But what women say they want and what they actually want are two different things.

 

IME women are initially attracted to strong men. Meaning if they don't view you as strong, dominant and masculine it's unlikely you'll ever get a second date. However, as the relationship progresses it's a challenge to them to take the upper hand. I think their feminism side takes over and they desire to be on top.

 

This leads us men to be confused sometimes. Me included. There has been many times when early on I was the leader in everything but after months or years I start dealing with a different woman who now wants me to be her submissive. Any other men observe this same thing?

 

So I know there is probably a good answer to this. School me so I can learn. I have some ideas but would like to hear others first.

[mossycup]

Great questions!

 

A few thoughts:

 

1. I would suggest that many women are playing submissive because in our experience, men reject dominant women, mostly (not all men). So a woman knows very clearly what attracts a man - being passive - but she can't keep that up. Once she has him, her natural dominance will come out. She feels safe enough and loved enough to be herself. Unfortunately, the man may not like this. Or, he might like it! Whether the relationship works out sort of depends on that.

 

2. If you look at traditional societies, while there were fixed gender ROLES (hunting and gathering/childraising) personalities would be fluid. Some men and some women are submissive, some are dominant. That would come out despite their roles.

 

3. Women are naturally dominant in their own spheres. Look at many traditional culture and you will see very dominant mothers ruling the household, and a quiet man. When the man goes out to work - maybe he's dominant there. But in the home, she dominates. It is her sphere. So this might be happening too. In the bedroom, who knows? It will depend on personality. But a man can be dominant at work and in the sheets, while his wife controls the household.

 

4. Some people are honest right away or can't hide their dominance/submissiveness. We all know couples that from day one, she was the more dominant. Those couples are generally happy, because they are being honest with each other and have found the right match.

 

It is a challenge for people to have to conform to gender roles when it comes to personalities. It's difficult for men to know who women really are, and vice versa, when in dating, we feel we have to hide those personalities. It's difficult for shy men and it's difficult for dominant women. People get upset about feminism, but feminism is just about owning who you are and being authentic and allowing that in people, so they can be honest with each other in pairing up, rather than surprise each other later. Feminism is about letting people fully express their identity, rather than fit into boxes.

 

I'm working on this myself. I'm a dominant woman but I always place submissive with men. However, it usually doesn't work out. My best relationships were where I asked the man out and was strong. In those cases, those men were also strong but had no problem with my strength, so we were equals.

[lovebitme]

Great questions!

 

A few thoughts:

 

1. I would suggest that many women are playing submissive because in our experience, men reject dominant women, mostly (not all men). So a woman knows very clearly what attracts a man - being passive - but she can't keep that up. Once she has him, her natural dominance will come out. She feels safe enough and loved enough to be herself. Unfortunately, the man may not like this. Or, he might like it! Whether the relationship works out sort of depends on that.

 

 

 

3. Women are naturally dominant in their own spheres. Look at many traditional culture and you will see very dominant mothers ruling the household, and a quiet man. When the man goes out to work - maybe he's dominant there. But in the home, she dominates. It is her sphere. So this might be happening too. In the bedroom, who knows? It will depend on personality. But a man can be dominant at work and in the sheets, while his wife controls the household.

 

Very well said. I agree. This is the shortest post I've ever done because I have nothing left to say

[wed4ever]

Once she has him, her natural dominance will come out. She feels safe enough and loved enough to be herself. Unfortunately, the man may not like this. Or, he might like it! Whether the relationship works out sort of depends on that.

 

That's very interesting. I've been married for 5 years and it wasn't too long after our wedding vows that I discovered that me being the dominant one wasn't going to work. I gave it an honest shot at first but I just knew it wasn't worth the fight. She won.

 

But that's ok. My wife is the most loving, caring person I ever met. She only does what's best for the family. I'm also a naturally submissive guy when it comes to women so just by chance our relationship works out really well.

 

In the back of my head it has always bothered me that I wasn't "the man" of the house but from what you wrote it put my conscious at ease. Maybe I'm the lucky one. Hey, if I'm happy then so what right?

[guest569]

Feminism is about equality. Not being on top.

 

These genders are socially constructed and vary across time and place. It's a scale, not binary. I judge a date as an individual, who are they as a person. If I like it or not has nothing to do with gender, or old fashioned stereotypes and gender roles which are a load of BS. I guess I would look for the same attitude in a partner too.

[lovebitme]

Feminism is about equality. Not being on top.

 

These genders are socially constructed and vary across time and place. It's a scale, not binary. I judge a date as an individual, who are they as a person. If I like it or not has nothing to do with gender, or old fashioned stereotypes and gender roles which are a load of BS. I guess I would look for the same attitude in a partner too.

 

So you have no preference in the type of man? You are equally attracted to all types of men? I doubt that. You actually enforce what I was trying to initially say.

[GoodOnPaper]

I’m a big believer in the balance of complimentary masculine/feminine energy in a couple. However, does it work in a heterosexual relationship when the woman has the more masculine energy? That is, will the woman stay attracted to her partner if he is the one who is more “feminine” in temperament? I’m skeptical - your evo psych conventional wisdom would say that a headstrong “masculine” woman would be naturally attracted to an even more assertive “masculine” man. Maybe my generational experience (elder GenXer) skews my thoughts.

[lovebitme]

Great questions!

 

 

My best relationships were where I asked the man out and was strong. In those cases, those men were also strong but had no problem with my strength, so we were equals.

 

I’m a big believer in the balance of complimentary masculine/feminine energy in a couple. However, does it work in a heterosexual relationship when the woman has the more masculine energy? That is, will the woman stay attracted to her partner if he is the one who is more “feminine” in temperament? I’m skeptical - your evo psych conventional wisdom would say that a headstrong “masculine” woman would be naturally attracted to an even more assertive “masculine” man. Maybe my generational experience (elder GenXer) skews my thoughts.

 

That would make sense. I'd be curious to hear what mossycup has to say. Would she really stick with a submissive guy and be happy long term?

[Woggle]

I must be weird because this has never been an issue in our marriage. It is just assumed as a fact of life that we are equals in our marriage. It is not something that we even try to do. It just happens naturally. Nobody is dominant or submissive but that is because we view each other as partners, friends and lovers and not adversarie. Too many people of both genders are incapable of seeing male and female relationships as anything other than adversarial and feel that they need to one up the other. I do for her and she does for me and that is what a healthy relationship should be.

 

Of course a ball breaking feminist doesn't respect her doormat husband anymore than a chauvinist respects his doormat wife because people don't respect those they view as beneath them.

[guest569]

So you have no preference in the type of man? You are equally attracted to all types of men? I doubt that. You actually enforce what I was trying to initially say.

 

No, it is the opposite of what you said. I did not say that I have no preference in type of man or that I'm equally attracted to all of them. But there are so many layers to a person that go beyond societal labels. Not everyone fits into a masculine dominant box. Maybe he is feminine in some ways and masculine in others. Ah what's the point.

[MountainGirl111]

Great questions!! I like strong men... manly men who are confident ... a manly man who can also be kind and sensitive is irresistible. Just as women who are very womanly yet are strong in certain ways are attractive to men...... it’s good to submit at times... knowing when to take a stand at other times is the key but doing it in a way that’s not domineering.

[basil67]

I'm a dominant woman and I need a man who matches me. He doesn't need to be chest beating masculine, but he does need to be able to hold his ground against me lest I bulldoze him. Not that it ends in arguments, it's just about being equally yoked.

 

There has been talk in the thread about how women become dominant in the marriage. I would imagine that it's because women are generally the ones who carry the mental load of running the household. It tends to be the women who organises the gifts, knows when the homework is due, if the school uniforms are clean and which meds the cat needs. It's us who knows when the kids are growing out of clothes, organises babysitters, makes sure vaccinations are up to date and does the shopping lists. We can't do the mental load of running a house without developing a strong personality.

[OatsAndHall]

This is also a topic that is becoming more and more common on dates for me and my answer to it is simple: "I treat everyone with respect and I expect that to be reciprocated. If it's not, then it's not going to work out." Honestly, I want to end those kinds of discussions quickly on dates because I have never found them to go anywhere positive. Folks think it's a deep, intellectual conversation but it really isn't as we're just tossing out random stereotypes and generalizations.

 

 

 

Women that first meet me are under the impression that I'm some chest-thumping alpha male because I coach, I enjoy lifting weights and I used to compete in the Highland Games before I ripped up my shoulder. I've never considered myself to be "dominant"/"alpha" or "submissive"/"beta" as I don't approach life with the thought of "taking control" or "being controlled". I'm not going to try and dominate any aspect of anyone's life and I would expect the same from them. If we can't communicate and compromise then we're not going to make it.

Edited August 26, 2018 by OatsAndHall

[lovebitme]

This is also a topic that is becoming more and more common on dates for me and my answer to it is simple:

 

How does the topic come up? It's not something that I can say has been talked about on the dates I've been on.

 

Do they come out and ask? What kind of questions have you been asked?

[OatsAndHall]

How does the topic come up? It's not something that I can say has been talked about on the dates I've been on.

 

Do they come out and ask? What kind of questions have you been asked?

 

 

 

 

Sometimes women will just come straight out and ask me if I consider myself an "alpha male" or something along those lines. On other dates, women pull up a list of "50 Questions For A First Date" (it's all over social media..) on their phones and it comes up then. I would say that it's come up on various levels about a third of the time since I started dating.

[lovebitme]

Sometimes women will just come straight out and ask me if I consider myself an "alpha male" or something along those lines. On other dates, women pull up a list of "50 Questions For A First Date" (it's all over social media..) on their phones and it comes up then. I would say that it's come up on various levels about a third of the time since I started dating.

 

Wow. If a girl pulled up a 50 question quiz on her cell phone on the first date it would be the last date she ever got with me. Check please!

[Lotsgoingon]

The question is too broad and too general.

 

It's sorta like asking, do people prefer to date someone who is good-looking? Well yes, they do ... but there are wide differences in what we judge to be good looking and our criteria are flexible depending on the whole "package" the person offers.

 

A personal with an amazing personality ... becomes better looking to me ... Even with some of my best friends, we don't always agree on who's "hot" and who's not. And there are lots of times people think someone is extremely good looking and yet they can't stand the person.

 

Same with the masculine and feminine/dominant and submissive judgment. A woman friend of mine once said that a man who is excellent in a field or a job strikes her as being extreme strong and masculine ... even if the person otherwise isn't particularly dominant. Lots of women find guys to be "strong" when the guy is seriously ambitious in a job or deeply involved in an interesting hobby or activity.

 

Lots of women consider men who are super-bright to be "strong." As in they feel safe and secure with a guy who is really sharp and can navigate the world and figure things out. Lots of women consider guys who can simply follow through on commitments to be strong ... And tough, dominant guys who are unreliable strike them as weak. Lots of women spouses are highly turned on when their husbands are deeply engaged and involved fathers. And a lot of women find a guy to be super strong if he can roll with and encourage their independence.

 

Reminds me a bit of a discussion recently on this board ... when a guy asked about dating a woman who was taller. I've dated several women who were taller than me. Lots of women don't think a guy has to be taller to be strong, masculine, sexy and all the rest. Some women do want a guy who is taller.

 

The beauty of being human is that there are often these broad, broad guidelines ... but then there are an infinite number of variables. I once dated a very "plain" looking woman ... but as soon as we kissed, the universe rocked. She went from plain-looking to incredibly sexy in seconds. This woman works at my job and even today ... when I see her sometimes, my brain instantly goes back to the feeling of kissing her.

 

Basically, it's best to put all of these "rules" out of your head when dating and just present the best version of yourself and look for someone who can appreciate you.

 

Lots of people consider it strong and sexy when a guy is totally comfortable with who they are--even if the guy is laid back and somewhat awkward.

[preraph]

I want to bring you down to earth a little bit. All traits fall on a scale of low tendency to high tendency, and most people do not fall at the extreme high or low end, which is generally problematic psychologically, but fall in the happy moderate middle somewhere. So don't try to classify people or yourself like that. If you're a healthy balanced person, you are not going to be real dominant or real submissive. You're going to be balanced and you may somewhat adapt to how each person around you is without straining yourself.

 

Beware of men who want you to be on either extreme of a spectrum. That's just a sexual fetish. And if they're extreme one way or the other, they are going to be hard to deal with and aren't the healthiest in that regard.

[mossycup]

That's very interesting. I've been married for 5 years and it wasn't too long after our wedding vows that I discovered that me being the dominant one wasn't going to work. I gave it an honest shot at first but I just knew it wasn't worth the fight. She won.

 

But that's ok. My wife is the most loving, caring person I ever met. She only does what's best for the family. I'm also a naturally submissive guy when it comes to women so just by chance our relationship works out really well.

 

In the back of my head it has always bothered me that I wasn't "the man" of the house but from what you wrote it put my conscious at ease. Maybe I'm the lucky one. Hey, if I'm happy then so what right?

 

That's a great story. There is no legitimate reason why a man should be dominant and woman submissive and never the reverse. It's just a social construct. So happy for you that you found a person that matched you and you can be yourself!

[mossycup]

That's a great story. There is no legitimate reason why a man should be dominant and woman submissive and never the reverse. It's just a social construct. So happy for you that you found a person that matched you and you can be yourself!

 

Also, there are many ways to be a man without being dominant. Other traits that attached to masculinity are loyalty, hard work, integrity, ability to bear pain bravely, protecting others, etc.

[mossycup]

I’m a big believer in the balance of complimentary masculine/feminine energy in a couple. However, does it work in a heterosexual relationship when the woman has the more masculine energy? That is, will the woman stay attracted to her partner if he is the one who is more “feminine” in temperament? I’m skeptical - your evo psych conventional wisdom would say that a headstrong “masculine” woman would be naturally attracted to an even more assertive “masculine” man. Maybe my generational experience (elder GenXer) skews my thoughts.

 

Actually I'd agree with this. Strong likes stronger. That can happen. There is a good book called The Alpha Female that talks about this.

 

Also, again, a man can be manly without being dominant - ie, there are other manly traits.

[MountainGirl111]

I think everyone has masculine and feminine aspects...with men the masculine is dominant...with females the feminine is dominant. I know there are people who like it when men are a little bit in touch with the feminine as that brings out more sensitivity and nurturing. Yes, men can be nurturers too; not just women. I know some men are attracted to strong, assertive, go-getter type women, but if a women is TOO much that way it can be a turnoff. Everyone is different though in what they prefer and what they find attractive. It's a cool thing with a couple compliment one another!

[basil67]

I want to bring you down to earth a little bit. All traits fall on a scale of low tendency to high tendency, and most people do not fall at the extreme high or low end, which is generally problematic psychologically, but fall in the happy moderate middle somewhere. So don't try to classify people or yourself like that. If you're a healthy balanced person, you are not going to be real dominant or real submissive. You're going to be balanced and you may somewhat adapt to how each person around you is without straining yourself.

 

Exactly this.

 

I say that I'm dominant, but the truth is that I simply know what I want and I'm not afraid to say it. I'm not a meek "whatever you want dear" type. Actually the women hubby broke up with before me was one of those and it drove him nuts that she would leave all the decision making to him.

 

Hubby has also commented that all his mates have married strong women. Not bossy or overwhelming, but women who will say what they think. In short, they are all pretty much mid line kinda people.

 

OP, I'm now wondering what you mean by the terms dominant and submissive in a relationship.

[SevenCity]

Most women want a dominant man. As you progress, they will test you. Aka a “S test”. They are doing this because they want to ensure you are genuine.

 

Many men fail at this and force the women into their masculine state. This causes women to resent you and get crabby (with a B). You’ll see they often take on masculine features (put on weight, cut their hair short, care less about their apoearance, etc). I’ve seen this repeated many times where the woman will dominate the husband mentally and physically (like 2x their weight).

 

A submissive beta guy will make a better care taker and husband - he’ll never leave and will be stable. And alpha guy will have options and only put up with so much.

 

The trick is, women are more attracted to the alpha traits (biologically as the offspring have a better chance of survival) and would rather have sex with the alpha (often complaining about what a jerk he is).

 

Being alpha is not for everyone. As the above poster stated some guys can’t handle always being “on”. Personally, I love it. I get quickly annoyed when a woman is leading. Though I find it rarer and rarer in women I date as I get older likely because they have been forced into their masculine having to take care of themselves being single in their 40s.

 

My gf is alpha and a leader. It’s been forced upon her due to life circumstances since she was a child. She’s always dated betas and never knew why she was unsatisfied and frustrated.

 

Enter me. I’ve completely thrown her core responses into a whirlwind. It’s an uphill battle but she’s most happy when she defers to me and can follow rather than lead. It’s slow work, but I’m making good progress.

 

She has other great qualities that make it worth the effort and also that she realizes she’s happiest when she lets me lead.

 

Even the most alpha guy can turn beta. It’s a constant choice that starts with you knowing you’ll be ok without her and can get other options.

 

Again, not for everyone.

[SevenCity]

Exactly this.

 

I say that I'm dominant, but the truth is that I simply know what I want and I'm not afraid to say it. I'm not a meek "whatever you want dear" type. Actually the women hubby broke up with before me was one of those and it drove him nuts that she would leave all the decision making to him.

 

Hubby has also commented that all his mates have married strong women. Not bossy or overwhelming, but women who will say what they think. In short, they are all pretty much mid line kinda people.

 

OP, I'm now wondering what you mean by the terms dominant and submissive in a relationship.

 

Dominance and submissiveness should not be confused with good communication.

 

You can be one or the other and be good or bad at communicating.

 

Ps: I wish I found more women like the ones your guy broke up with.