I asked my crush to be my wing(wo)man

[littleblackheart]

I understand that individuals with autism have difficulty reading social cues. Can this condition hamper one’s ability to have empathy and hence moral judgement?

 

In short, no. Moral judgement and lack of empathy are issues for antisocial people (or uncharitable people in general), not those with ASD.

 

I am asking because the OP does not seem to try to see things from the perspectives of others.

 

That's mind blindedness, not lack of empathy; they are very often conflated, because of a lack of awareness / information surrounding ASD.

 

Mind blindedness means you can't attribute a mental state to others - because ASDs generally feel more secure with facts, they can't presume or interpret other people's emotional behaviour, even the obvious ones. On the flip side, ASDs are generally good at seeing patterns and making links so eventually we can identify the emotion when it's a repeated pattern of behaviour.

 

I can't tell if or why you are upset, but if you tell me, I will be able to empathise and offer advice on a specific situation.

 

This is why ASDs mostly prefer interactions to be factual and to the point - anything else is seen as either irrelevant or too complex to deal with without clear information. Passive aggressiveness, vague statements or anything that requires reading between the lines (most social situations, essentially) can be a problem.

 

Don't get me wrong, someone with ASD can also lack empathy but it has nothing to do with autism.

[PRW]

On the flip side, ASDs are generally good at seeing patterns and making links so eventually we can identify the emotion when it's a repeated pattern of behaviour.

 

Yes, that is why I kept using the "muscle memory" analogy. Repeated practice, repeated behavor.

[JuneL]

Thank you.

When I said the OP failed to see things from the perspectives of others, the examples I had in mind were actually factual stuff put in abstraction. For example, the vast majority of people would think of cheating or stealing a friend’s girlfriend as morally wrong. As another example, most would agree that finding a partner who doesn’t share his condition just so that she can help him navigate social situations would create an enormous burden on her. There’s no need for the OP to read another person’s state of mind in such cases.

 

In short, no. Moral judgement and lack of empathy are issues for antisocial people (or uncharitable people in general), not those with ASD.

 

 

 

That's mind blindedness, not lack of empathy; they are very often conflated, because of a lack of awareness / information surrounding ASD.

 

Mind blindedness means you can't attribute a mental state to others - because ASDs generally feel more secure with facts, they can't presume or interpret other people's emotional behaviour, even the obvious ones. On the flip side, ASDs are generally good at seeing patterns and making links so eventually we can identify the emotion when it's a repeated pattern of behaviour.

 

I can't tell if or why you are upset, but if you tell me, I will be able to empathise and offer advice on a specific situation.

 

This is why ASDs mostly prefer interactions to be factual and to the point - anything else is seen as either irrelevant or too complex to deal with without clear information. Passive aggressiveness, vague statements or anything that requires reading between the lines (most social situations, essentially) can be a problem.

 

Don't get me wrong, someone with ASD can also lack empathy but it has nothing to do with autism.

[JuneL]

Here’s a stupid example to illustrate my question:

 

Suppose boy A was playing with his toy train. Then boy B suddenly took away A’s train for himself. In this situation, if you just put yourself in A’s shoes (use your enpathy to picture how you would feel if someone takes away your toy for himself), you know A would be upset. There’s no need to read A’s body language or social cues. My understanding is that someone with autism shouldn’t have trouble deducing that A would be upset, right?

 

p.s. I just came across a study on moral judgement. According to that study, individuals with autism tend to base their moral judgment on outcome instead of intention.

[littleblackheart]

Thank you.

When I said the OP failed to see things from the perspectives of others, the examples I had in mind were actually factual stuff put in abstraction. For example, the vast majority of people would think of cheating or stealing a friendÂ’s girlfriend as morally wrong. As another example, most would agree that finding a partner who doesnÂ’t share his condition just so that she can help him navigate social situations would create an enormous burden on her. ThereÂ’s no need for the OP to read another personÂ’s state of mind in such cases.

 

I see what you mean but in the case of cheating, yes most people (ASDs included) know cheating isn't great but that doesn't stop them from actually cheating - ASDs or NTs are the same in that regard. To me personally, cheating is cheating whether married, in a relationship, with a friend's partner or any other scenario. It's all one big line I wouldn't cross.

 

I guess I'm saying let's not pretend NTs have better moral judgement or are all paragons of virtue here (thousands of examples on LS). OP's is not an ASD-related issue, it's a time immemorial falling for the wrong person issue.

 

In terms of looking for a non ASD partner, I don't see what the problem is. Besides my own observational skills; my friends and family have been extremely helpful and supportive in decoding social cues. ASDs aren't aliens, they don't all need therapy- they're normal people with a brain wired differently to the 'mainstream', that's all.

 

With patience and, ironically, a lot of empathy, a partner can be a great help too as long as it's not the only reason you choose that particular person. NTs and ASDs 'get' each other all the time. NTs are not all perfect in any event....

 

My gripe with OP is more about justifying going for his friend's gf because, in a way, she's not totally unreachable compared to all the other women out there he thinks he can't attract, which he seems to blame on the Aspie thing.

Edited October 11, 2018 by littleblackheart

[JuneL]

Thank you. That’s exactly what I need to know.

 

I didn’t mean that people without autism have better moral judgment, at all. I just wanted to know whether it’s legitimate to use his condition as an excuse.

 

I also didn’t mean people have autism shouldn’t find a partner without autism. I just thought you shouldn’t think of your partner as someone whom you can use to navigate social situations. Just like we’ve always been told that we shouldn’t use our partner as our therapist.

 

I see what you mean but in the case of cheating, yes most people (ASDs included) know cheating isn't great but that doesn't stop them from actually cheating - ASDs or NTs are the same in that regard. To me personally, cheating is cheating whether married, in a relationship, with a friend's partner or any other scenario. It's all one big line I wouldn't cross.

 

I guess I'm saying let's not pretend NTs have better moral judgement or are all paragons of virtue here (thousands of examples on LS). OP's is not an ASD-related issue, it's a time immemorial falling for the wrong person issue.

 

In terms of looking for a non ASD partner, I don't see what the problem is. Besides my own observational skills; my friends and family have been extremely helpful and supportive in decoding social cues. ASDs aren't aliens, they don't all need therapy- they're normal people with a brain wired differently to the 'mainstream', that's all.

 

With patience and, ironically, a lot of empathy, a partner can be a great help too as long as it's not the only reason you choose that particular person. NTs and ASDs 'get' each other all the time. NTs are not all perfect in any event....

 

My gripe with OP is more about justifying going for his friend's gf because, in a way, she's not totally unreachable compared to all the other women out there he thinks he can't attract, which he seems to blame on the Aspie thing.

[ProfessorOptics]

I'm not trying to blame my ASD for all of this. What I'm blaming, is here is this girl, who I'm attracted to, she knows I'm attracted to, has told me that she feels the same, and I'm struggling with dealing with the emotion involved within this situation.

 

Also, I should note that ASD, or asperger's isn't the only thing i'm dealing with. Currently, PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) is my primary difficulty. Frankly put, its the anxiety driven need to be in control.

 

this guy explains it better than what i can:

 

 

What makes this whole thing that much tougher, is I notice the way she would look at me, even though she's with someone else. It's not just a "friendly" greeting. My gut feels it's more than that. On top of that, she never denied her feelings for me, on multiple occasions.

 

I spoke to my therapist about this and he suggested I send her a message stating as follows:

 

"you have told me so many things about yourself. I have learnt that you have obviously been through a lot with your family, and past relationships. What worries me, is that I'm starting to get the idea that you only like me because I'm just an older guy who likes you. The problem is, because I'm such a gentle, sensitive guy, when I like somebody, it's difficult for me when everything is grey. Things are grey at the moment, because we talk all the time and not in just a friendly way, and yet we aren't boyfriend and girlfriend. I cannot cope with that grey, because it's not good for me and it's not good for you. So, if you ever want to have some form of relationship with me, it's entirely up to you, but that is something you need to decide. I need to be able to have a boundary, between you and I, until there is clarity for you."

 

Her response was that she wasn't attracted to me just because i was "some" older guy who was attracted to her. She was attracted to me because we connect, and she is able to communicate with me on a stronger level than with my friend. After that, she's reaching out to me most of the time. She even called me, which she had never done.

 

On top of all that, she calls me on Saturday, asking if i would like to do something with her. She wants to get into a routine of earlier nights, earlier morning where she would text me good morning, and make sure that we follow the routine. She wants to do this with me. Not my bro, not her boyfriend. But with me.

She's also known that I plan to move to the UK. On that same call, she mentioned to me that she plans to go to the UK, and that she'd rather go with me because I've been there before and can show her the UK way of life.

 

After both of the calls, she would send me a message shortly after. Just a short "heyyy".

 

She get's upset when i'm annoyed with her, and when I talk with her about other girls i'm seeing. Asking her for her advice, because honestly, none of the other girls I know will come right out with what they think, without sugar-coating it. Everytime i talk about this other girl i've been speaking to, she would change the subject, or ignore it outright, messaging me later to talk about something else.

 

I don't even message her first, well... she messages me first more than I message her.

 

Did i mention how she looks at me? She blushes whenever she's around me, and always talks to me with a soft gentle voice.

 

I don't follow her everywhere. I call her out on her bull****. She calls me out on my bull****. Why would she do this stuff is she truly wasn't interested or indifferent towards me? I know how girls are who aren't interested. The indifference is as plain as daylight. She definitely isn't indifferent toward me.

 

And i never planned to steal her away from my friend. I actually help them out where i can to make things work between them.

 

Friendzone, is usually when the girl uses a guy to satisfy her emotional needs. "Beta Males" will just be there at her beck and call, and basically follow her around like a lost puppy. I don't. I keep my distance as best i can, yet the more i pull away, the more she reaches out. Plus, I don't just listen to all her issues. It's the other way round. I treat her like i would a friend. Talk to her when something is bothering me, and listen to her when something is bothering her. I won't let myself to be her doormat. Fullstop.

 

Perhaps i'm retarded and just misreading the situation, but I trust my gut. It is never wrong, and my gut is saying there is more there than just a "friendly" platonic relationship. Yet, she's with my friend.

 

And cue the hate speech...

Edited October 14, 2018 by ProfessorOptics

[littleblackheart]

I'm not trying to blame my ASD for all of this. What I'm blaming, is here is this girl, who I'm attracted to, she knows I'm attracted to, has told me that she feels the same, and I'm struggling with dealing with the emotion involved within this situation.

 

Also, I should note that ASD, or asperger's isn't the only thing i'm dealing with. Currently, PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) is my primary difficulty. Frankly put, its the anxiety driven need to be in control.

 

this guy explains it better than what i can:

 

 

What makes this whole thing that much tougher, is I notice the way she would look at me, even though she's with someone else. It's not just a "friendly" greeting. My gut feels it's more than that. On top of that, she never denied her feelings for me, on multiple occasions.

 

I spoke to my therapist about this and he suggested I send her a message stating as follows:

 

"you have told me so many things about yourself. I have learnt that you have obviously been through a lot with your family, and past relationships. What worries me, is that I'm starting to get the idea that you only like me because I'm just an older guy who likes you. The problem is, because I'm such a gentle, sensitive guy, when I like somebody, it's difficult for me when everything is grey. Things are grey at the moment, because we talk all the time and not in just a friendly way, and yet we aren't boyfriend and girlfriend. I cannot cope with that grey, because it's not good for me and it's not good for you. So, if you ever want to have some form of relationship with me, it's entirely up to you, but that is something you need to decide. I need to be able to have a boundary, between you and I, until there is clarity for you."

 

Her response was that she wasn't attracted to me just because i was "some" older guy who was attracted to her. She was attracted to me because we connect, and she is able to communicate with me on a stronger level than with my friend. After that, she's reaching out to me most of the time. She even called me, which she had never done.

 

On top of all that, she calls me on Saturday, asking if i would like to do something with her. She wants to get into a routine of earlier nights, earlier morning where she would text me good morning, and make sure that we follow the routine. She wants to do this with me. Not my bro, not her boyfriend. But with me.

She's also known that I plan to move to the UK. On that same call, she mentioned to me that she plans to go to the UK, and that she'd rather go with me because I've been there before and can show her the UK way of life.

 

After both of the calls, she would send me a message shortly after. Just a short "heyyy".

 

She get's upset when i'm annoyed with her, and when I talk with her about other girls i'm seeing. Asking her for her advice, because honestly, none of the other girls I know will come right out with what they think, without sugar-coating it. Everytime i talk about this other girl i've been speaking to, she would change the subject, or ignore it outright, messaging me later to talk about something else.

 

I don't even message her first, well... she messages me first more than I message her.

 

Did i mention how she looks at me? She blushes whenever she's around me, and always talks to me with a soft gentle voice.

 

I don't follow her everywhere. I call her out on her bull****. She calls me out on my bull****. Why would she do this stuff is she truly wasn't interested or indifferent towards me? I know how girls are who aren't interested. The indifference is as plain as daylight. She definitely isn't indifferent toward me.

 

And i never planned to steal her away from my friend. I actually help them out where i can to make things work between them.

 

Friendzone, is usually when the girl uses a guy to satisfy her emotional needs. "Beta Males" will just be there at her beck and call, and basically follow her around like a lost puppy. I don't. I keep my distance as best i can, yet the more i pull away, the more she reaches out. Plus, I don't just listen to all her issues. It's the other way round. I treat her like i would a friend. Talk to her when something is bothering me, and listen to her when something is bothering her. I won't let myself to be her doormat. Fullstop.

 

Perhaps i'm retarded and just misreading the situation, but I trust my gut. It is never wrong, and my gut is saying there is more there than just a "friendly" platonic relationship. Yet, she's with my friend.

 

And cue the hate speech...

 

No hate speech. She is with your friend. The end.

If she wanted more with you, she'd dump him first. The current situation is that she's unavailable and you don't seem to care.

 

Put some distance between the 2 of you - if she's playing games, you'll soon know.

[elaine567]

Why hasn't she dumped your friend?

[ProfessorOptics]

No hate speech. She is with your friend. The end.

If she wanted more with you, she'd dump him first. The current situation is that she's unavailable and you don't seem to care.

 

Put some distance between the 2 of you - if she's playing games, you'll soon know.

 

okay. I'll do my best.

 

Why hasn't she dumped your friend?

 

Honestly, I couldn't tell you.

 

okay, a few questions:

why am I only attracted to emotionally unavailable women?

 

Were my instincts at least right and it was just case of bad timing?

 

Is it okay to have preferences?

 

Why don't I ever find them, the ones who are available?

[ProfessorOptics]

I guess what I'm really after is to find out if the patterns I'm seeing is right or not. I don't have the capacity to project my emotions onto someone else, and I want to know if my instincts are correct or not. I would like to know if i'm just being an idiot thinking there is someone who is actually attracted to me...

 

Are these patterns indicative of someone who "just wants to be friends?"

Am I seeing these patterns correctly, or incorrectly?

Can I continue to trust my gut/instincts, or no?

Edited October 15, 2018 by ProfessorOptics

[PRW]

I don't have the capacity to project my emotions onto someone else,

 

Yes you can. Don't believe everything that the psychologists say. You may have strengths and weakness in areas a little different than others. But you still aren't a mechanical device. It is always a spectrum without absolutes. Even a pet dog projects it's emotions on a person,...if the dog is happy to see the person it just runs up to them because it assume the person is happy to see them,...that is projection.

 

Are these patterns indicative of someone who "just wants to be friends?"

Am I seeing these patterns correctly, or incorrectly?

Can I continue to trust my gut/instincts, or no?

Of course you do. But that doesn't mean you can't make your instincts better. Just because your instinct tells you something,...doesn't automatically mean it is right, or it is wrong. It is not the only tool you have to make determinations. Actually it is really just Learned Interpretation, it is not really instinct. Self preservation is an instinct, blinking your eyes when wind blows dirt in your face is an instinct...dating methods are not.

[JuneL]

Truth be told, most people have trouble interpreting mixed signals in the dating context. This issue is not specific to you, in other words.

 

In what context did she say she had feelings for you? Do you remember her exact wording and the conversation surrounding that?

 

One possibilty why she likes talking to you might be because she thinks you’re straightforward. As for the morning calls thing, I think this is the type of things done between female best friends. When my good friend wanted to lose weight, we exchanged our daily food and physical activity logs.

Edited October 15, 2018 by JuneL

[ProfessorOptics]

Truth be told, most people have trouble interpreting mixed signals in the dating context. This issue is not specific to you, in other words.

 

In what context did she say she had feelings for you? Do you remember her name exact wording and the conversation surrounding that?

 

We went outside from our location, and i told her i need to have a chat. The exact wordings were: I'm attracted to you, and i'm 99% certain that it isn't unreciprocated. Straight away, with no hesitation, she said: "It is reciprocated."

 

One possibilty why she likes talking to you might be because she thinks you’re straightforward. As for the morning calls thing, I think this is the type of things done between female best friends. When my good friend wanted to lose weight, we exchanged our daily food and physical activity logs.

 

If she's truly friendzoned me, then I'm out. Call me arse, or whatever, but I told her straight up that I'm only agreeing to be friends because she's currently with someone else.

 

 

I don't know. Not just with her, but in general I'm starting to feel hopeless. People say don't give up. I try everyday to keep my head up, despite everything. I fail, and I feel **** for failing. I try to learn why I failed, but then I fail again, and again, again, and each time my self-love starts to dwindle. My confidence fades, and I feel I'm not getting anywhere. "Focus on your purpose" "You'll meet the right girl" "you'll get there, don't give up." and yet, the more I fail, the further those words become; the harder they are to believe.

 

I'm just idiot that's going nowhere, and I don't know what to do about it... I give up, I've had enough...

Edited October 16, 2018 by ProfessorOptics

[JuneL]

I don't know. Not just with her, but in general I'm starting to feel hopeless. People say don't give up. I try everyday to keep my head up, despite everything. I fail, and I feel **** for failing. I try to learn why I failed, but then I fail again, and again, again, and each time my self-love starts to dwindle. My confidence fades, and I feel I'm not getting anywhere. "Focus on your purpose" "You'll meet the right girl" "you'll get there, don't give up." and yet, the more I fail, the further those words become; the harder they are to believe.

 

I'm just idiot that's going nowhere, and I don't know what to do about it... I give up, I've had enough...

 

For starters, you need to go for available women. Does it occur to you why this situation is so complicated is that she is your friend’s girlfriend?

[PRW]

I think you need to see if you can get into the US. Where you are at right now poses far more dangerous threats to you than not finding a girl.

[ProfessorOptics]

For starters, you need to go for available women. Does it occur to you why this situation is so complicated is that she is your friend’s girlfriend?

 

this situation always happens. I meet a woman, there's attraction there, it's mutual. and yet they aren't available woman. The women I want, are all unavailable. the woman I don't want, are the ones that end up chasing me. I know what I want in a woman. This is one thing, if nothing else, that I took from Corey Wayne. "write down what you want in a woman, and what are deal breakers". I know exactly what I want, yet every woman I meet that meets those things, aren't available, and I don't know why. Am I not attractive? am I not sexually appealing to these women? am I doing something wrong.

 

What makes this particular situation complicated, is that she said to me, in her own words that she hasn't rejected me. Yet, she won't leave my friend. So, I've decide to ask her to call me and I'm going to straight up say something on the lines of "I just want you to be happy. It either him or me, and if you choose him, then I'll take that as a rejection and let you go; move on. because I cannot be just friends with someone I am attracted to romantically, and at this time, i'm still unsure what it is that you want, and I can't help feel that I'm just a backup plan. that you just want to be friends with me because I'm some guy that is into you"

 

this would've been so much simpler had she outright friendzoned or rejected me: "sorry, I don't see you that way," or "sorry I'm not interested." or "let's just be friends."

 

she knows I want her. she knows that a part of me wants her to be happy and that another part wants her to choose me. she told me herself that she knows what it is I want.

 

this may be wrong, and selfish. but she needs to choose, and understand that if she chooses him, I have to go. And that if she chooses me, she has to leave him. I am at fault, but it's not fair on anybody that she is doing this.

[ProfessorOptics]

I think you need to see if you can get into the US. Where you are at right now poses far more dangerous threats to you than not finding a girl.

 

my plan is to move to the UK. though I've put that on hold now while I deal with everything. her, my Asperger's and my pda. My immediate family is here, and they support me as best they can. In the UK, I'll hardly have anybody, which may be counter productive.

[JuneL]

There are people who are only attracted to unavailable people. Do you know that?

 

this situation always happens. I meet a woman, there's attraction there, it's mutual. and yet they aren't available woman. The women I want, are all unavailable. the woman I don't want, are the ones that end up chasing me. I know what I want in a woman. This is one thing, if nothing else, that I took from Corey Wayne. "write down what you want in a woman, and what are deal breakers". I know exactly what I want, yet every woman I meet that meets those things, aren't available, and I don't know why. Am I not attractive? am I not sexually appealing to these women? am I doing something wrong.

 

What makes this particular situation complicated, is that she said to me, in her own words that she hasn't rejected me. Yet, she won't leave my friend. So, I've decide to ask her to call me and I'm going to straight up say something on the lines of "I just want you to be happy. It either him or me, and if you choose him, then I'll take that as a rejection and let you go; move on. because I cannot be just friends with someone I am attracted to romantically, and at this time, i'm still unsure what it is that you want, and I can't help feel that I'm just a backup plan. that you just want to be friends with me because I'm some guy that is into you"

 

this would've been so much simpler had she outright friendzoned or rejected me: "sorry, I don't see you that way," or "sorry I'm not interested." or "let's just be friends."

 

she knows I want her. she knows that a part of me wants her to be happy and that another part wants her to choose me. she told me herself that she knows what it is I want.

 

this may be wrong, and selfish. but she needs to choose, and understand that if she chooses him, I have to go. And that if she chooses me, she has to leave him. I am at fault, but it's not fair on anybody that she is doing this.

[PRW]

my plan is to move to the UK. though I've put that on hold now while I deal with everything. her, my Asperger's and my pda. My immediate family is here, and they support me as best they can. In the UK, I'll hardly have anybody, which may be counter productive.

 

The UK is a disaster right now, you wouldn't be any better off there. You might be ok in the UK in the thinner populated outlying areas temporarily, but that won't last.

 

Anyway, up to you. But I dont' think getting girls should be as high on your list as it seems to be.

[ProfessorOptics]

There are people who are only attracted to unavailable people. Do you know that?

 

I'm not purposefully seeking out unavailable women.

 

I struggle to connect with people in general, and it leaves me feeling incredibly lonely and unwanted. Thing is, I've always been okay with being alone. I spend 99% of my time on my own. I'm comfortable with it, and most of the time prefer it. I just don't fancy being lonely, feeling like there isn't anybody out there whom I truly desire, and whom truly desires me. Whom i pick, and she chooses. Funnily enough, the only people i seem to attract are gay men, unavailable women, or women that don't meet what it is I'm looking for.

[ProfessorOptics]

The UK is a disaster right now, you wouldn't be any better off there. You might be ok in the UK in the thinner populated outlying areas temporarily, but that won't last.

 

Anyway, up to you. But I dont' think getting girls should be as high on your list as it seems to be.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be with a woman. One thing i've grown to realize is adult friendships are vastly different to childhood friendships. As children, all you want to do is spend time with the other. As adults, no one has as much time to spend with you, because adult life just gets in the way.

 

All i'm wanting, is to find someone to spend my days with, to support and care, guide and lead. And whom wants to actually be there and do the same to some extent. Someone i can share my happiness with, my sadness, my anger, my life. And someone who wants to share that stuff with me.

[JuneL]

The UK is a disaster right now, you wouldn't be any better off there. You might be ok in the UK in the thinner populated outlying areas temporarily, but that won't last.

 

Anyway, up to you. But I dont' think getting girls should be as high on your list as it seems to be.

 

I am puzzled by this conversation about where he should be moving. Is the OP originally from the US?

[ProfessorOptics]

I am puzzled by this conversation about where he should be moving. Is the OP originally from the US?

 

I'm from South Africa...

Edited October 16, 2018 by ProfessorOptics

[JuneL]

I'm not purposefully seeking out unavailable women.

 

I struggle to connect with people in general, and it leaves me feeling incredibly lonely and unwanted. Thing is, I've always been okay with being alone. I spend 99% of my time on my own. I'm comfortable with it, and most of the time prefer it. I just don't fancy being lonely, feeling like there isn't anybody out there whom I truly desire, and whom truly desires me. Whom i pick, and she chooses. Funnily enough, the only people i seem to attract are gay men, unavailable women, or women that don't meet what it is I'm looking for.

 

It may well be an unconscious decision to seek unavailable women.

 

What’s wrong with those women who didn’t meet your standards?