Romantic Love is Conditional, Not Unconditional

[Wave Rider]

I decided to try an experiment on my internet dating profile.

 

I am a 39-year-old graduate student in physics. I will graduate with a PhD in a year and a half, and I hope to work at NASA after I graduate. I have been frustrated by the lack of interest from women in my internet dating profile, so I changed my occupation from "graduate student researcher" to "NASA Engineer" and my education level from Master's to PhD, just to see what would happen.

 

The results of the experiment: women are MUCH more interested in dating a PhD working at NASA than a grad student in physics. Simply graduating and getting a real job will improve my "SMV" substantially. I don't think this is terribly surprising, except for the fact that I am the SAME PERSON in both cases. All I have done by graduating and getting a job is increased the amount of money and status that I have.

 

I am very bothered by the fact that increasing the amount of money and status I have somehow makes me more worthy of a woman's love and affection.

 

I suppose that women who lose a lot of weight have the same problem. A woman who loses 40 pounds may suddenly find herself getting much more attention from men. She can make the same argument: I am the SAME PERSON as I was before I lost 40 pounds, and yet somehow losing weight makes me more deserving of love and affection from men.

 

So this makes me cynical about romantic love. If a relationship is just a contract between two people who agree to stay together as long as both comply with the other's conditional expectations, is that love? Why are some people more deserving of our love than others based on their looks, money, and status?

[ja123]

Romantic love is conditional on the mere basis of everyone being relegated to a role by their partners. It's objectification. And it works both ways.

[A O]

NASA is a really prestigious organisation, belonging to a place like this is going to open doors across the board and not just romance-wise. And a PHD, well, that isn't too much different either. Status is important, so many things are important but what is even more important, is whether you let these things inhibit your ability to find romance.

[Chilli]

Thing is , none of that is love of any kind and really it's an insult to the word and meaning of love.

 

All that is is just shallow short sited people looking at a shopping list about someone they don't even know on a computer screen .

 

But say you met someone in RL , and you both truly fell in love. Unless you have just terrible tastes in women and character , she's gonna hopefully have a helluva a lot more depth and care for you , than that bs.

[carhill]

Congrats on your achievements and best wishes for a long and successful career in space.

 

 

So this makes me cynical about romantic love.

Yeah, it's easy to get that impression/feeling if/when analyzing behaviors that aren't rational or logical. Goes against everything physics teaches us.

If a relationship is just a contract between two people who agree to stay together as long as both comply with the other's conditional expectations, is that love?

The attraction/love are emotions, the relationship is a choice. We can be attracted to and/or love people we choose not to be in relationships with, as one option.

Why are some people more deserving of our love than others based on their looks, money, and status?

Mating is very discriminatory and often irrational. Once one lets go of viewing it as a math problem with a solution and accepting the maelstrom as self-evident, things get easier. Not more reasonable or logical, but easier.

 

As to your specific experiment, presuming its conclusion is authentic, women like what they like. If you epitomize what society has programmed them to deem an attractive man to be, you might get some interest. If you epitomize what society has programmed them to deem a valuable partner worth committing to, then you might get some form of commitment.

 

Another experiment to try..... harder to do since it requires navigating the maze of societal programming.... once committed to, change, but not in a way they want you to change.

 

TBH, if you didn't have all this mating stuff figured out in high school, it's always going to be a burden at some level. Looking back, I'd rather have gone to Mars than wasted decades on relationship stuff. Much more satisfying. Others might disagree. You live your life for you. No one else really cares.

[guest569]

NASA? Even the straight men will come running.

 

Also what type of women do you want to date? Any backgrounds, education, careers?

[Springsummer]

What is love?

[basil67]

To be fair, at the age of 39 a woman would expect a guy to have his job/career in order. To be earning a living and able to support himself. To be able to get another job if the current one ends. We are talking about life skills here.

 

Yes, higher calibre jobs can be impressive, but a full time student at your age would indeed struggle to find a partner.

[basil67]

To be fair, at the age of 39 a woman would expect a guy to have his job/career in order. To be earning a living and able to support himself. To be able to get another job if the current one ends. We are talking about life skills here. Yes, higher calibre jobs can be impressive, but a full time student at your age would indeed struggle to find a partner.

 

As far as romantic love being conditional, I absolutely agree. I have conditions for love: I need to be treated with respect. I need to have a partner who has good communication and conflict resolution skills. He needs to be aware of my needs and be able to meet them. And yes, he needs to be employable. If a guy didn't do those things, my love would fail.

[Mr. Lucky]

The results of the experiment: women are MUCH more interested in dating a PhD working at NASA than a grad student in physics. Simply graduating and getting a real job will improve my "SMV" substantially. I don't think this is terribly surprising, except for the fact that I am the SAME PERSON in both cases. All I have done by graduating and getting a job is increased the amount of money and status that I have.

 

I am very bothered by the fact that increasing the amount of money and status I have somehow makes me more worthy of a woman's love and affection.

 

First off, don't confuse OLD responses with love and affection. Two very different things.

 

And how does this tell you anything specifically about women? Have a female friend create a profile that says she's in "marketing". After due course, change it to "Hawaiian Tropics swimsuit model" and look at the delta.

 

She's "the SAME PERSON in both cases", right?

 

Mr. Lucky

[carhill]

Don't know the OP but have known plenty of guys who have been successful in life and decide to do something different.

 

For all we know the OP could be a former MSF doctor who tired of being shot at

 

However, good point. Women like quantifiable status confirmation. The more elevated their socio-economic status, the more important this generally is. Nowadays that means a salary search, business net worth analysis and quantifiable contracts with important public and private entities. Being the first name on the law firm plaque helps too. This indicates the man can multi-task.

 

The overweight middle aged guy teaching kids in a K-12 about computers might not get much play even if the lady knew his name was Steve Wozniak

 

That's how society works OP. Neither you nor I will ever change it. You might terraform Mars though. That'd be pretty cool. Hook up with a green lady.

[Chilli]

NASA is a really prestigious organisation, belonging to a place like this is going to open doors across the board and not just romance-wise. And a PHD, well, that isn't too much different either. Status is important, so many things are important but what is even more important, is whether you let these things inhibit your ability to find romance.

 

 

Yeah see and that was the second part of what l was thinking and if she had any brains and class she'd also be realizing too anyway.

[major_merrick]

Of course romance is conditional. Romance is mostly based on brain chemicals...also called infatuation. Indeed, money and status and credentials will have an effect on this. True love is a rare thing. True love is when your special person doesn't care about your money or status, and is willing to live in a shack running with mice or be a hobo under a bridge just to be with you. That's a special kind of friendship, and it will take tons of time to develop that....it won't be found online, unless you are super lucky.

[Wave Rider]

TBH' date=' if you didn't have all this mating stuff figured out in high school, it's always going to be a burden at some level. Looking back, I'd rather have gone to Mars than wasted decades on relationship stuff. Much more satisfying.[/quote']

 

Yeah, the research shows that the factors that determine the success of failures of our relationships are largely due to our family of origin and personality. I have indeed wondered if it’s time to really give up on relationships, not because I’m unattractive, but because I wasn’t dealt the right emotional hand to be successful in intimate relationships (and let’s face it, most people aren’t), and perhaps I should plan for a life that won’t include a stable, satisfying, fulfilling long-term intimate relationship. After 15 years of frustration over why my relationships always seem to fall apart, maybe it’s time to relieve myself of the burden of pursing a goal that is unattainable for me. It would indeed be amazing what I could have accomplished if I could have taken all the time I’ve spent worrying about being single and instead devoted it to, say, physics research.

 

NASA? Even the straight men will come running.

 

See, and I do worry about this because if I don’t get a job at NASA after I graduate, and I get a job at ABC aerospace company making more money than I would have at NASA, are women going to be less interested in me because I work for a less prestigious employer, even if my salary is higher? Is that what true love means?

 

As far as romantic love being conditional, I absolutely agree. I have conditions for love: I need to be treated with respect. I need to have a partner who has good communication and conflict resolution skills. He needs to be aware of my needs and be able to meet them. And yes, he needs to be employable. If a guy didn't do those things, my love would fail.

 

Certainly romantic love is conditional on things like respect and communication, but is it also conditional on looks, money, and status? If so, is that really love?

 

First off, don't confuse OLD responses with love and affection. Two very different things.

 

Maybe so, but a response in online dating is an acknowledgement for the potential and possibility of love and affection. It's not love, but it shows the possibility for love. An online rejection implies no possibility for love. So if a woman rejects me online because I'm just a grad student but responds well to me as a NASA engineer, she's saying she could not love me as a grad student but could love me as a NASA engineer. That's definitely conditional love based on status. And yes, this is why I generally dislike OLD, because it promotes a "picky shopper" mentality that forces you evaluate people primarily on looks, money, and status. But given that my life is arranged such that the people in my work and hobbies consist of 90% men and 10% women, and probably always will because I'm a physicist with predominately male hobbies, I need to have some kind of way of meeting women.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Wave Rider

[PhillyLibertyBelle]

To be fair, at the age of 39 a woman would expect a guy to have his job/career in order. To be earning a living and able to support himself. To be able to get another job if the current one ends. We are talking about life skills here.

 

Yes, higher calibre jobs can be impressive, but a full time student at your age would indeed struggle to find a partner.

 

It’s exactly this. If you were a 29 year old grad student it wouldn’t be an issue. You’ll still be a grad student at 40 and maybe 41. A good number of other adults at 40 will have been in employment 15-20 years, may have already had families and been married and divorced and own homes etc. Their own days as student will be distant memories and your potential NASA life will be starting close to midlife. That could feel risky for an age appropriate woman.

[guest569]

Wow. OP, you really don't know what love means?

[Wave Rider]

It’s exactly this. If you were a 29 year old grad student it wouldn’t be an issue. You’ll still be a grad student at 40 and maybe 41. A good number of other adults at 40 will have been in employment 15-20 years, may have already had families and been married and divorced and own homes etc. Their own days as student will be distant memories and your potential NASA life will be starting close to midlife. That could feel risky for an age appropriate woman.

 

The results of my experiment clearly agreed with you: I will get a boost in SMV when I obtain additional money and status after I graduate. But that wasn't my question. My question was, why does having more money and status make me more worthy and deserving of a woman's love? Why is romantic love so conditional on things like looks, money and status? Romantic love sound pretty shallow and superficial if it is indeed conditional on these things. I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer.

[A O]

Why is romantic love so conditional on things like looks, money and status? Romantic love sound pretty shallow and superficial if it is indeed conditional on these things. I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer.

Looks, money and status, they get you noticed, they may get you though the door, but you are going to need a heck of a lot more than that to form a real, lasting, loving relationship. There are exceptions, there are people who settle for one or all of the aforementioned three, but they are extremely rare, albeit, so well publicized, so to speak, that some people mistakenly believe that this is what many relationships are based on. But again, this notion is incorrect.

[Eternal Sunshine]

You are confusing an online profile coffee-meet preselection process with love.

 

But yeah, women tend to prefer job/status over looks when looking for a partner. Men prefer youth and looks. The only time when those 2 things don’t matter as much is when people are very young. That’s when “real love” happens. The older people get, the more transactional it is.

[PhillyLibertyBelle]

The results of my experiment clearly agreed with you: I will get a boost in SMV when I obtain additional money and status after I graduate. But that wasn't my question. My question was, why does having more money and status make me more worthy and deserving of a woman's love? Why is romantic love so conditional on things like looks, money and status? Romantic love sound pretty shallow and superficial if it is indeed conditional on these things. I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer.

 

OP apologies for not answering the original question. I’m not sure it’s about money and status as about perceived risk of instability.

[guest569]

Why is romantic love so conditional on things like looks, money and status? Romantic love sound pretty shallow and superficial if it is indeed conditional on these things. I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer.

 

I asked you a question. What sort of woman are you looking for?

[zouz71]

You don't need a PHD to discover it ....

 

 

IMO in this world , after the technical revolution and the introduction of something called Social networking / internet , there is nothing called romantic love .

 

 

there is match

[basil67]

The results of my experiment clearly agreed with you: I will get a boost in SMV when I obtain additional money and status after I graduate. But that wasn't my question. My question was, why does having more money and status make me more worthy and deserving of a woman's love? Why is romantic love so conditional on things like looks, money and status? Romantic love sound pretty shallow and superficial if it is indeed conditional on these things. I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer.

 

You've only given your test two variables: Full time study vs high profile job. The data from your test isn't sufficient to draw conclusions. You don't know if the women were attracted to high profile job or repelled by the fact that you don't have an income. We're talking 0-100 range here and that doesn't work. If someone shared this data on my FB page as being fact, I'd blow it out of the water.

 

Take your test further and test part time study/part time work against working as an electrician. Try marketing vs accounting. Try high income boring profile vs low income really interesting profile. Then come back to us with serious data for consideration.

[Wave Rider]

I asked you a question. What sort of woman are you looking for?

 

I acknowledge the other half of this, which is that, inasmuch as whether I deserve a woman's love depends on my money and status, I certainly admit that a woman's youth and beauty absolutely influence whether or not I will "fall in love" with her. It is conditional from both ends. And certainly I realize that the more appealing of a woman I want, the more money and status I'm going to need. I believe that is where you were going with that question.

 

To me, this only goes further in demonstrating the highly conditional nature of romantic love.

[Wave Rider]

You are confusing an online profile coffee-meet preselection process with love.

 

But yeah, women tend to prefer job/status over looks when looking for a partner. Men prefer youth and looks. The only time when those 2 things don’t matter as much is when people are very young. That’s when “real love” happens. The older people get, the more transactional it is.

 

This is what I'm saying. Let's be honest with ourselves about what we're doing: a relationship is a contract. It's an exchange agreement between two individuals: I'll agree to do A, B, and C for you, if you agree to do X, Y, and Z for me. If I stop doing A, B, and C, or you stop doing X, Y, and Z, then the contract is null and void, and our relationship ends. What's wrong with just being really honest about what a relationship actually is?

 

So I bring whatever money and status I have, and she brings whatever youth and beauty she has, and we make a trade. Isn't that what a relationship is on a functional level? Why does the relationship have to be all about "love conquers all" and "I will love you forever" when really it's just a transaction between two people who have found benefit in making an exchange?

Edited October 19, 2018 by Wave Rider