Romantic Love is Conditional, Not Unconditional

[ja123]

Why does the relationship have to be all about "love conquers all" and "I will love you forever" when really it's just a contract between two people who have found benefit in making an exchange?

 

Yep, I'm older and jaded, so now I'm thinking about having an affair or looking at it as what's in it for me. Sad really, no?

[A O]

To me, this only goes further in demonstrating the highly conditional nature of romantic love.

Well, the seas are well and truly choppy in your world. Thankfully, for many people, the (romance or love) conditions are a lot smoother. Still, half the battle, is working out the conditions, as we see them, in order to design the appropriate course of action to best navigate (or surf) these conditions. You have got both the conditions and the course of action all worked out. I don't agree with them, many here do not agree with them, but that is all immaterial - surf's up...

[ja123]

How did Bill Gates find Melinda?

[ja123]

The answer: common/shared values

[salparadise]

I am very bothered by the fact that increasing the amount of money and status I have somehow makes me more worthy of a woman's love and affection.

 

So this makes me cynical about romantic love. If a relationship is just a contract between two people who agree to stay together as long as both comply with the other's conditional expectations, is that love? Why are some people more deserving of our love than others based on their looks, money, and status?

 

You mean the wasn't covered in quantum mechanics? Dude, for a 39 year old with predictably firing synapses you seem not to understand some fundamental realities. Do you ever wonder why, when you can't find your pencil, that it's more likely to be on the floor than on a wall?

 

The whole dating-mating game is based in practical realities. One of them is that women are drawn to money like flies to sh*t. Another one is that they seek the best genes, and nature distributes those in extremely random patterns.

 

I'll give you two references to read up on this stuff. First is "The Moral Animal" by Robert Wright. It's pretty theoretical. Secondly, David M. Buss. His work is research based social science –– inductive reasoning. Another is Robert Trivers, the social scientist who is probably the most frequently quoted.

 

I hope you won't be too disappointed. But hey, keep checking the wall first. You never know when gravity will just change its mind.

[Million.to.1]

This is what I'm saying. Let's be honest with ourselves about what we're doing: a relationship is a contract. It's an exchange agreement between two individuals: I'll agree to do A, B, and C for you, if you agree to do X, Y, and Z for me. If I stop doing A, B, and C, or you stop doing X, Y, and Z, then the contract is null and void, and our relationship ends. What's wrong with just being really honest about what a relationship actually is?

 

So I bring whatever money and status I have, and she brings whatever youth and beauty she has, and we make a trade. Isn't that what a relationship is on a functional level? Why does the relationship have to be all about "love conquers all" and "I will love you forever" when really it's just a transaction between two people who have found benefit in making an exchange?

 

 

That’s not how life works though. **** happens, people get sick, lose jobs, family die, your house burns down and you forgot to renew your insurance... tragedy will strike at some point in life.

If you are swapping money and status for youth and beauty, then it’s doomed to fail. Woman get older, so they are held to a contract they can’t forfill indefinitely.

You could have an injury or illness and have to change careers. This shouldn’t endanger the relationship if it’s based on real love. The relationships that last and are the happiest are people who can evolve and change together, accepting the ups and the downs as part of the journey. Good character and shared values are more important than the things you mentioned in your contract.

 

Love is about seeing the beauty of someone’s soul. The warmth you feel from their touch, how they make you feel, how they grow, change as an individual and how you deal with what happens in life, together.

[guest569]

I acknowledge the other half of this, which is that, inasmuch as whether I deserve a woman's love depends on my money and status, I certainly admit that a woman's youth and beauty absolutely influence whether or not I will "fall in love" with her. It is conditional from both ends. And certainly I realize that the more appealing of a woman I want, the more money and status I'm going to need. I believe that is where you were going with that question.

 

To me, this only goes further in demonstrating the highly conditional nature of romantic love.

 

It's not quite what I was getting at (that if you want a beautiful woman then you need a NASA job - no).

 

Basically, you can't be bitter about women wanting certain things when you also want certain things. Some women want to show off their flashy NASA guy to their friends or find someone to provide for them. Others don't give a rats and rather date the hot bartender or struggling artist. Most are probably just being practical and rather date someone who is at the same life stage (both providing equally). It's not about love. It's about finding compatibility and someone to potentially fall in love with.

[littleblackheart]

There will be women interesting in you but I very much doubt they will be online.

 

More to the point: how do you have time to date halfway through your PhD?? I presume you are working part-time too?? When I did mine, I had no time to breathe, never mind date!

[basil67]

I acknowledge the other half of this, which is that, inasmuch as whether I deserve a woman's love depends on my money and status, I certainly admit that a woman's youth and beauty absolutely influence whether or not I will "fall in love" with her. It is conditional from both ends. And certainly I realize that the more appealing of a woman I want, the more money and status I'm going to need. I believe that is where you were going with that question.

 

To me, this only goes further in demonstrating the highly conditional nature of romantic love.

 

Whoa what? You are already highly conditional in your love and you're making a thread complaining about the conditionality of a woman's love? If this is your attitude, it's no surprise that you're single.

 

Quit your complaining and accept karma without complaint.

[littleblackheart]

Whoa what? You are already highly conditional in your love and you're making a thread complaining about the conditionality of a woman's love? If this is your attitude, it's no surprise that you're single.

 

Quit your complaining and accept karma without complaint.

 

I wouldn't worry Basil - I think OP is probably just theorising about stuff he has little experience about...

 

OP, I know of exactly zero PhD candidates dating while studying. FWIW, I think you should complete first, then see where this leads you.

[elaine567]

You are 39 years old, this "eternal student" status is not attractive to women in your age group, so hardly surprising when you changed it to NASA engineer you got more replies I guess had you changed it to any "proper" job, the same thing may have happened.

Most women I guess do not want to finance and support a 39 yo "student". and there is also the worry that once they have done so, you will be off on another career path...

[elaine567]

Where did the notion that romantic love is "unconditional" come from in the first place?

[BaileyB]

Where did the notion that romantic love is "unconditional" come from in the first place?

 

Exactly. It's clearly not.

 

I love my partner, but if he starts to call me names, becomes a drug addict, decides he doesn't want to have sex or develops a wandering eye, etc... He will learn that my love is very conditional.

 

This whole discussion seems like sour grapes to me.

[elaine567]

I think some people especially when young do think

"If he/she loves me, he/she will put up with anything and never leave me" - love everlasting, unconditional love.. but... not true.

 

This forum seems to get its share of young guys (usually) who say "I treated her bad. I took her for granted, I ignored her, I cheated... and now she has dumped me and is gone, I realise she was the love of my life and I will change..."

 

Parental love can be unconditional.

Romantic love is not usually.

[Mysterio]

Does Romantic Love really need to be conditional. Yes and no. I would say it depends on what your personal experiance in life is.

 

I know for myself. My romantic conditions is a lot of physical affection. Flexability and conflict resolutions skills are a must. Can't get angry with me for no reason.

 

Love/Lust is whats really combined and has to be balanced from you to your partner and back again.

 

My ex wanted a child and wanted me to be on board with that in month 5 in our relationship. I was not like that. I felt that we were not gelled as a couple, and thats why we are broken up.

 

Its about balance and exploring your boundaries. My buddy DT can live and have kids with his GF who is still legally attached to her ex. For me that would not fly and we would not get off the ground. There is no way I am going to be with a woman that is attached. I don't care how great she is. At best its dating with her doing something about her status. I don't need that type of soap opera in my life.

 

My Romantic conditions are the woman and I are both single and making an effort to connect. Physical affection/interesting conversations and laughs are a by product of that.

[JuneL]

I haven’t read the whole thread. But why would some stranger on OLD have unconditional love for you? It’s a different story if you’re already married (or in a very committee relationship) and you lose your job or lose your leg. Then you can talk about not-so-conditional love. The only truly unconditional love I ever know is from parents to children. Of course, even parents often have conditional love for their own kids.

[No_Go]

If a relationship is just a contract between two people who agree to stay together as long as both comply with the other's conditional expectations, is that love?

 

Nope. It is transactional interpersonal interaction. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

When I hear: "I love him/her because xxx" it makes my blood boil. Love has NOTHING to do with what the person has done or is doing for us, whether they love us or hate us, whether they are with us or not. Love is a state of being INDEPENDENT of all this situational circumstances.

 

Nothing more cringeworthy than hearing someone saying they love someone "if xxx" (he/she respects them, adores them, marries them, is good to their family whatever). That is talking about self-love (aka 'achieving your goal') and has NOTHING to do with loving the other person. The other person is just a tool of executing xxx goal.

 

To see what love means one may need to observe and study very young children or animals, since they are yet unburdened of 'expectations' (goal-seeking).

[norudder]

The thing is you AREN'T the same person in each of the two profiles. It may seem you've changed only two minor superficial things, but those things *may* speak to certain traits and values of a person who has obtained them.

 

Someone who has shown the perseverance to complete their goals and values education, someone who values giving back to society through work and being able to provide for themselves.

 

Those could also have been shown with other profile combination selections. As another pointed out, you only provided an either-or option.

 

The superficial gives a sense of potential, both of the person and the circumstances for the environment the relationship will take place in. Limitations or freedoms, kids/travel/etc. It opens the door for attraction and to discover values, character and see if intimacy, connection, and love can develop.

 

The first part may be highly transactional, but as it grows it becomes more.

 

In regards to being conditional or unconditional, there are many types of love and many contexts it can exist in. You can love someone unconditionally (romantically or otherwise) and absolutely have boundaries or conditions for not being in a relationship with them. That's healthy.

 

Attraction vs love vs relationships. Figuring out the differences might be beneficial.

 

Agree with others that this might not be the right thing to be focusing on right now.

[RecentChange]

Oh boy....

 

Honey, this has nothing to do with "love".

 

What you are talking about is attraction, and compatibility.

 

I am the SAME PERSON in both cases. All I have done by graduating and getting a job is increased the amount of money and status that I have.

 

I disagree very much this. Are you the same person now as before you started school? Or has the experience and learning changed you in a way?

 

Landing a job at NASA is a huge accomplishment, a much bigger accomplishment than "not yet graduated PhD student". It shows that someone has a lot of gumption, that their talent is exceptional, it says something about that person that "student" does not.

 

I am 40. I have been working hard at my career for 18+ years, working life for me at least has been very different than when I was in school - my experiences are different. My friends and those I surround myself with are different. I have grown up and changed a lot.

 

And if heaven forbid I found myself in the dating pool at this point in life, a "student" wouldn't immediately strike me as being compatible with my life, nor goals.

 

And again, none of this is about "love". Its about compatibility. Its about attraction, its about the building blocks which love can build upon.

[Mr. Lucky]

Maybe so, but a response in online dating is an acknowledgement for the potential and possibility of love and affection. It's not love, but it shows the possibility for love. An online rejection implies no possibility for love.

 

Good heavens, no! A response may only be an acknowledgement of boredom, desperation, need or manipulation on the part of the sender.

 

Might be hard for you to hear, but you have a better chance finding "love and affection" using your real profile. That facts of your situation filter out the shallow and judgmental ones...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Wave Rider]

I think I'm ready to reformulate my opinion on my original question. We can consider the conditions that are both necessary and sufficient for choosing a specific individual as a romantic partner. Love is a necessary condition, but love alone is not a sufficient condition. For a woman to choose me, she must not only be in love with me, but I must also meet her desires for social status, financial security, moral goodness, and probably a bunch of other things.

 

So a woman wants a man whom she loves, and who gives her a social status boost, and whom she can show off to her friends, and who will provide for her financially, and who can be a best friend, and who is morally good, and who helps her to self-actualize, and who can be a hundred other things for her. Basically, she's looking for one man who can be everything for her, which is what our modern idea of marriage is all about. Men's expectations are no lower. So even if her love has some element of unconditionality to it, she wants a whole lot more from the relationship than just love. What does she want from a relationship? In a word, everything.

 

Those are some pretty high expectations, and I think that has a lot to do with why most people are dissatisfied with their romantic relationships: I think that people simply expect too much from one person and one relationship. It seems that our modern idea of relationships is that you can get everything you need in life from one person.

 

So now it's time for me to evaluate my own expectations. Are they too high? Probably, but so are everyone else's, so why should I change? It's probably true that I can't expect too much, especially from online dating, before I graduate. After I graduate, I may need to make some decisions about what matters to me in terms of looks, personality, status, education, and moral goodness. Of those five, the ones I'm willing to compromise on least are looks and moral goodness. If I have to pick, I'll take a woman who I think is good-looking and well-behaved over one who is highly educated and popular/successful.

 

But will I fall in love with someone merely because they look good on paper and because they meet a predetermined list of criteria? That is a more difficult problem.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Wave Rider

[guest569]

This stuff all seems fairly obvious.

 

Compatibility + love.

[RecentChange]

Love is a necessary condition, but love alone is not a sufficient condition. For a woman to choose me, she must not only be in love with me, but I must also meet her desires for social status, financial security, moral goodness, and probably a bunch of other things.

 

Chart before horse. I am curious, in your mind, when does this "fall in love" thing happen? What allows it to happen, what IS it to you?

 

To me, love is that special thing that brings two souls together. Its that feeling that no one else can understand ME, all of me, the accomplishments, the dark secrets, the good and the bad. And that I feel the same about him, that I love him, all of him. That I have a special and deep connection that can not be duplicated. We can be vulnerable and true to each other. We care about each other, we desire each other, that is the love component.

 

Love does not come from reading a dating profile, nor from someone's accomplishments, its a deeper connection.

 

 

So a woman wants a man whom she loves, and who gives her a social status boost, and whom she can show off to her friends, and who will provide for her financially, and who can be a best friend, and who is morally good, and who helps her to self-actualize, and who can be a hundred other things for her. Basically, she's looking for one man who can be everything for her, which is what our modern idea of marriage is all about. Men's expectations are no lower. So even if her love has some element of unconditionality to it, she wants a whole lot more from the relationship than just love. What does she want from a relationship? In a word, everything.

 

Here, I will simply it for you - a woman wants a partner. One plus one can equal more than two. A relationship that will enhance both, without bringing each other down.

 

You are in academia - do not meet any women in that pursuit? Women who are educated, successful and ambitious? I assure you not all women are looking for a man to support them, not in this day and age.

 

Those are some pretty high expectations, and I think that has a lot to do with why most people are dissatisfied with their romantic relationships: I think that people simply expect too much from one person and one relationship. It seems that our modern idea of relationships is that you can get everything you need in life from one person.

 

Do you have some sources to site for this broad picture? Most people I know are in successful relationships. Many in my social group met our spouses in college (undergrad) or soon after. A few... got married later in life (early 40's) after they launched successful careers or businesses.

 

So now it's time for me to evaluate my own expectations. Are they too high? Probably, but so are everyone else's, so why should I change?

 

Everyone's expectations are too high? I suppose perhaps that is true for those reaching middle age without a successful relationship, but that is very far from everyone.

 

My honest take? Less analyzing, less evaluating, and more FEELING. More socialization. Spend more time with people who do have successful relationships.

 

A good relationship is more art then science. It doesn't break down nicely into equations, but rather takes a lot of "feel" intuition. The ability to read and respond to subtleties in people. Its a lot of the less obvious stuff and love doesn't come from check lists.

 

But will I fall in love with someone merely because they look good on paper and because they meet a predetermined list of criteria? That is a more difficult problem.

 

Personally, being in love myself, and having experienced it before, I don't understand how this could happen.

 

People do not generally fall in love with a list of traits. Infatuated? Perhaps. Deluded? Sure - but LOVE, that deep emotional spiritual thing that feels more intense than anything else ever experienced - I don't know how this could be confused with a check list.