Never thought I'd be an OW (long post)

[PhoenixRising8]

So soory about your job loss, hope you find another one quickly.

 

Thanks BTDT, me too. I had an interview yesterday and I think it went well, despite my current state. Here's hoping because that's all that's really left.

[PhoenixRising8]

heartwhole2 posted this on another thread and it resonated. Definitely an ah ha moment:

 

He was not prepared for her reaction (complete shock and sadness).

 

I can relate to this comment from the other end, and I'll elaborate because I think this causes a lot of confusion and false hope for

OW

in this type of relationship.

 

Our "marital problems" were minor but were blown out of proportion because my husband

didn't know how to communicate

. On DDay he told me his gripes . . . that I didn't ask about his day enough, and that I didn't walk to the shops with him on the weekends any more ... I would ask, which came first, the desire to have an affair or the dissatisfaction with the marriage? Certainly

marital issues as "egregious" as ours would not be solved by a secret girlfriend

?

 

He had told me about their marriage and it was mostly neglect. She was 'not present' (suffering from depression I later found out) and made him feel undervalued when he tried to help, so he checked out. He no longer had a connection with her, no companionship, nothing left in common, lost physical interest in her.

 

Tom is closed but could open up to me it seemed. Obviously we were so much more compatible, we could talk in a way we couldn't with our spouses. But sometimes it's easier to talk to strangers, isn't it? We could talk, laugh, shared common interests and lots of chemistry. Clearly they had nothing left and we had it all.

 

So

on DDay

he had convinced himself

so

fully that I was already checked out that my reaction of horror and despair completely floored him

. Surely I was sending him messages that I wanted out of the marriage by my actions ... But if

so

, then why was I reacting like I had just suffered a horrible, unthinkable trauma?

 

No DDay, just him telling her he wanted to end the marriage, but the reaction and net effect was the same so he back tracked. Now I see that the last 6 months he was validating how much she cared. He figured out she cared enough to stay because she put up with being ditched on her birthday and Valentine's day, overnights away from home, lots of absences and very little time at home. Despite all of that, she sent him a heartfelt letter on his birthday, planned family dinners and outings for special occasions, something lacking for quite a few years, a trip and so on. Guess he finally figured out she cared enough it no longer was worth taking a chance on someone else, despite any 'love' he had for the other woman. He had spent his entire adulthood with this one, raised a family with her, had mutual friends and extended family. What he had with me may have been love, but it wasn't a life.

 

Anyway, from the

OW

perspective, they see the

MM

who has his long list of dissatisfactions, who is positive his

BW

has checked out.

So

they are thinking, well why isn't he leaving this awful situation already? And then when the

BW

reacts to ... being betrayed by someone who vowed fidelity, they say, oh, she's being manipulative now because she wants to keep her marriage. And oh, how convenient for him that now the

BW

is trying

 

Yup, this exactly. What I failed to take into account was that his ship was listing but hadn't sunk. Unlike mine, his marriage suffered merely from neglect, not abuse. Take the neglect away and his marriage could be at least satisfactory enough for him to stay.

 

So thank you heartwhole2 for the detailed BS perspective. It really proved to put the remaining piece of the puzzle in place.

Edited May 25, 2019 by LilKatKat

[PhoenixRising8]

I still don't get why he came back with grandiose promises, beyond the fact he could? Had he not come back, it would have been easier because everything else makes sense. I can't seem to get over the sense that he preyed on my vulnerabilities, but worse than that ... I allowed him to.

[heartwhole2]

I'm glad my words could help you.

 

I don't know the particulars of your situation or your MM, of course. There's a spectrum of humanity and certainly some MM are just calculating manipulators, but I think the vast majority of them are people with crap coping and conflict resolution skills who justify an affair. Their attachment and affection is not fake, though it is based on falsehood in the sense that affairs make you crave what you can't have, and IMO they are often more about loving how the other person views you and makes you feel rather than loving them for them.

 

I also think that if the BW is not a push-over and is not doing the pick-me dance after DDay, then the MM feels like crap when he's around her. She makes him face the reality of who he is and what he's been doing. Whereas he can seek solace/escape from the OW, who confirms to him that he's a good guy and what they had was understandable and positive. Do you want to be the sleazy douche or the desired alpha male? So the MM will often reach back out after a DDay or break-up, though this almost never leads to him divorcing.

 

I'm not sure why this is, but it does seem much more common for women to have affairs when they're already one foot out the door, and for men to have affairs to make staying in the home situation more "palatable" to him. The MW cannot figure out why the MM is not following their "love" to its logical conclusion like she is, but he is acting as logically as one can when one has "solved" their marital issues by compounding them further.

 

For me, it was important to understand these dynamics because as a stoic and rational (INTJ) female, I could not for the life of me figure out why someone would willingly chase a mate or put up with being a secret. And when it so personally impacted my life, I wanted to understand it for my own closure. So for better or for worse, I've spent some time reading OW forums, and I do feel I found the humanity in it. Having compassion for my OW was important to my moving on.

 

When I have time I'll read more of your story and see if I can offer any further insight.

[mark clemson]

I still don't get why he came back with grandiose promises, beyond the fact he could? Had he not come back, it would have been easier because everything else makes sense. I can't seem to get over the sense that he preyed on my vulnerabilities, but worse than that ... I allowed him to.

 

 

It's possible that he intended to, then again changed his mind. It's possible he just wanted more validation etc. that he was getting from you. As a male, he was probably at least hoping that you'd bend your rules, whatever else may have been going on in his head.

 

I suspect that his marriage was much more bearable with you in it, including emotionally not just physically. After all he started this journey on AM, not in divorce court.

[PhoenixRising8]

Thanks for your response heartwhole2. I too am an INTJ and I think this is what keeps me trying to find the logic and reason. I have this uncontrollable need to understand. But not everyone processes the way we INTJs do. Most are more able to accept what is.

 

some

MM

are just calculating manipulators, but I think the vast

majority of them are people with crap coping and conflict resolution skills

who justify an affair.

Their attachment and affection is not fake

, though it is based on falsehood in the sense that affairs make you crave what you can't have, and

IMO

they are often more about loving how the other person views you and makes you feel rather than loving them for them

.

 

Mine is definitely a rug sweeper and quite conflict avoidant. I've known this for some time. Even at the outset, I challenged him about the state of his marriage and whether he could make a go of it if he put in even a fraction of energy into it as he did into us. I kept on this theme virtually throughout. He continually assured me the marriage was 'lifeless and loveless'. I also said that it was less about me and more about how I make him feel. His response was always that he had never felt as in synch and compatible with anyone else ever and that he recognized this almost immediately about us.

 

I also think that if the

BW

is not a push-over and is not doing the pick-me dance after DDay,

then the

MM

feels like crap when he's around her

. She makes him face the reality of who he is and what he's been doing. Whereas

he can seek solace/escape from the

OW

, who confirms to him that he's a good guy

and what they had was understandable and positive. Do you want to be the sleazy douche or the desired alpha male?

So

the

MM

will often reach back out after a DDay or break-up, though this almost never leads to him divorcing.

 

My BS did the 'pick me dance' (she knew he was straying but he always denied it when asked) but not overtly. She did it by avoiding confrontation and overlooking his bad behaviour. She did it by commemorating special occasions and holidays and showing him she cared, whether for the reasons he wanted or just because of the safety and security marriage provides. Doesn't matter the reason when the result is the same. She let him have his cake while eating it and waited it out. Had it been me and my husband suddenly started spending 1 or 2 overnights a week 'at a friend's', I'd be losing my $h!t and trying to catch him. She kept her cool. And yes, he felt like crap around her. Always said he felt uncomfortable and awkward.

 

I'

m

not sure why this is, but it does seem much more common for women to have affairs when they're already one foot out the door, and for men to have affairs to make staying in the home situation more "palatable" to him ... he is acting as logically as one can when one has "solved" their marital issues by compounding them further.

 

That is an interesting question. Why indeed. An affair isn't the answer. But I suppose it does make the drudgery of marital discord easier to take and if not discovered, is a lot less messy than the upheaval of divorce.

 

I could not for the life of me figure out why someone would willingly chase a mate or put up with being a secret.

 

Allow me to explain that from an OW perspective, at least from my personal experience.

 

Our marriages were both approximately the same in length. I found it very difficult to leave mine for a whole host of reasons. I went back and forth for years. But when the reality of having an affair sunk in, which didn't take long at all, I realized there was no staying. My ex made it all the easier by his actions towards my daughter. From all of our discussions about our marriages it seemed clear he was in the same place so I gave him every benefit of the doubt after he told her he wanted to separate and backtracked. He had to work through guilt and obligation, as I had to. Weeks turned into months. It started to feel he would never leave. We broke up. He came back in tears almost a month later saying he realized it was me he wanted to be with. Why would he come back saying that if he didn't mean it? So I said fine, but strictly 'hands off' and we picked up where we left off, minus the physical. Started seeing each other 4 times a week, morning texts and calls, texts throughout the day, calls during the day, calls on his drive to the gym and home, more texts in the evening, good night call before he went to bed.

 

The last time I saw him, 4 weeks ago today, he left my house and as he was walking away he said 'I love you', I said it back and he said 'I love you more'. The next day, he said he was having doubts again, in the same breath as "I love you' with hearts and kisses and I lost it. We spent a week talking and texting but in my mind I was already gone. I didn't want to chase someone else's partner.

 

So in a nutshell, I had reason to believe he was 'on the same page' as me as that's what he always said and he 'proved' it by telling her he wanted to leave the marriage. Then he vowed he needed to work through guilt and obligation. I had no reason to suspect otherwise as that was when he started the overnights and we continued to see each other numerous times a week. I think he was hoping she would make it easy by throwing him out on his ear and he wouldn't end up the bad guy. I took him back because why would he come back if he didn't mean it. As soon as I knew yet again he wasn't going to leave we broke up again. It only took 6 weeks the next this last time.

[PhoenixRising8]

It's possible that he intended to, then again changed his mind. It's possible he just wanted more validation etc. that he was getting from you. As a male, he was probably at least hoping that you'd bend your rules, whatever else may have been going on in his head.

 

I suspect that his marriage was much more bearable with you in it, including emotionally not just physically. After all he started this journey on AM, not in divorce court.

 

As I get farther way from this and time goes on, I am still inclined to believe he loves me and intended to leave. His life (and marriage) were more tolerable with me in his life. He was miserable without me, so he says, and realized he wanted me in his life forever. Six weeks later, poof! All up in smoke. Go figure.

[mark clemson]

Yes - the difficulties of the marriage drive him to want to leave. So he turns to you and feels better. With validation, attention, etc from you, the marriage doesn't seem so bad any more. So then the reality of what a hassle/cost it is to divorce sinks in and he changes his mind about leaving again.

 

He'd probably go around this particular merry-go-round 10 more times if you let him. At the cost of years of emotional stress and frankly a waste of your life over him. Stick to your guns...

[heartwhole2]

I have always been attracted to men with fairly opposite personalities (e.g. ENFP). I do believe that opposites attract and complement one another. Is it the same for you?

 

But of course, this means my partner is someone who likes spontaneity, who experiences vibrant feelings, who bristles against too much sameness and responsibility. This type of man enjoys dreaming about what could be, but not necessarily turning that into what is. I doubt that your MM's intentions have been to harm you, but when push comes to shove and he balks at making major changes, does he think, "Well, Kat did sign up for an affair"? Does he worry, as you must, that the reality of your relationship wouldn't make up for the chaos the divorce brings?

 

You are in the stage of trying to make sense of things. How genuine was he? How much are you to blame for being gullible? I do understand that for someone with your personality type you want a complete picture. In the end, though, I don't think you can ever measure another person's intentions or feelings. So much of that is simply perception. You can only judge their actions.

 

We have the opportunity to learn from everything that happens to us. You brought pain into your life with your choices, and you will have to find a way to accept that. I would be seeking not so much blame but forgiveness, first and foremost for yourself. There's a reason these are tales as old as time, right?

 

Now that you know better, you can do better. Take solace in that. Grieve the dream of this relationship (which I guarantee you was much better than the reality would be). Thank the universe for teaching you these lessons, which you will carry with you into bigger and better things.

[PhoenixRising8]

Thanks for your replies all.

 

@mark yes, I wonder how long before the difficulties of the marriage make him want to leave again. But who knows, maybe he'll put in the effort to try to reconnect with her, get that loving feeling again. Maybe he'll buck the odds and succeed, even though talking is not his thing. As for sticking to my guns, absolutely. He'd have to have moved out and been out a while, without going back before I would reconsider. Even then, the truth is, he is not the sort of man I want. It would only be nostalgia and nothing to build a future on.

 

@ SB2 I hadn't felt close to my ex in years. Tom didn't start that. I'm pretty sure he wasn't in the same bedroom as her for quite some time. He and I spoke for long periods at all sorts of hours into the night, so not likely he was in the master with her. I doubt I created the distance, but I didn't help to bridge it.

 

And there's no way he could think I'd wait around forever. I'd told him repeatedly I wouldn't. As for demands, they started only after he started discussions about separation and backtracked. The future fake was started by him, not me. If you're going to make promises, live up to them. I have every right to ask that you do. So yes, I made demands AFTER he made promises, which I had every right to know the true intent of.

 

@heartwhole2 Yes, I am definitely trying to process and understand everything. While I can say without a shadow of a doubt I will NEVER have an affair again, this has left me entirely depleted and without trust. I don't know if I will ever be able to trust a man. I don't know if I even want to.

 

Yes, I did sign up for an affair. We both did. Then HE started the you and me forever partners thing. Out in the open. 24/7. And I went through all the discussions with him? Are you sure? Can you make it work? If you put in a fraction of the effort into your marriage as you do in us, who knows? It was always no, no, no. The marriage is loveless and lifeless. and then 6 months in he has the conversation with her. Then 7 months of drama. I can't even begin to tell you how eaten up I started to become at what he was doing to her. How many times I told him he was being cruel, not just to me and her but to his family. Asked him how he can live a lie every day of his life. How his conscience allowed him to continue. So yes, what I signed up for became different, with him initiating, and starting to follow through, until he didn't.

 

 

I hope he is miserable. I hope he misses me. I hope he regrets everything he's done. I just doubt it though. I doubt he can see anything beyond himself.

[Beendaredonedat]

He feels guilty about hurting the mother of his children. Admits he didn't try to work things out when he might have had a chance and feels guilty about that. Guilty about the grief it will do to his kids. Just guilt all over the place. Feels he might take the martyr route and cause more grief to everyone, including us, just so he won't feel guilty about hurting her. Thinks she hasn't a clue he's having an affair because she trusts him and he's always been a proud family man. I think he's the naive one. She's suggested he has his "friend" over for dinner which he declines of course. Has talked about several affairs, including her dad and her parents managed to work it out. No she hasn't a clue! He denies it of course because he doesn't want the kids to hate him or me to get everyone's wrath. But yeah, I'd be willing to bet she knows.

I don't think it's "guilt" at all, I think he is/was afraid to leave what is familiar to him for you because you, like him aren't free, you've spent stolen moments together only so he really doesn't know you and for all he does know, once life gets in the way of your lust and infatuation of one another, he'll not be all that enthralled to stay with you and where will that leave him?

 

People who are not free to give themselves to others shouldn't be pretending that they can give themselves to anyone. The two of you need to divorce and put all of your baggage away on a shelf before either of you will be a good partner to anyone else.

 

Making excuses why he can't or couldn't be with you and why you couldn't divorce your husband or him leave his wife due to this that and the other thing are just that "excuses."

 

Bottom line: split before you start up with someone else or learn to be happy in the limbo you've placed one another in and defo don't be pressuring him/her to leave their spouse when you're just as much with your spouse as they are even if you don't live together anymore. Separated is still married, particularly when there is still all the drama going on between each other.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Beendaredonedat

[PhoenixRising8]

@been. Thank you for your opinion. I am not in limbo as both are a thing of the past, not to be resurrected. As for my marriage, it is in name only. My ex and I are in agreement. We have our arrangement, for a variety of reasons, none of which I intend to elaborate on.

[PhoenixRising8]

@SB2 yup, no arguments from me. The first Tom was an illusion. This one is the real one and he is an SOB.

[elaine567]

"The first Tom was an illusion."

I am glad you have worked that out.

The "illusion" is the reason many women stay in relationships and marriages well past their sell by dates. They hang onto the illusion of that wonderful guy he was at the start, and hope against hope that "the real him" will come back one day, but the "real him" is, as you say, the SOB he apparently turned into.

[Naivewomen]

I too was holding onto the "illusion" of who I thought MM was. This is the worst part because we believed and trusted them. I dont eant to be that person that keeps people at arms length because of lack of trust and etc. Be the person that pulls people in with your genuine LOVE. Lesson learned now but I wont give up on others. There are so many genuine loving people out there. Keep smiling it goes a longway!! Chin and head up, you GOT this!! Your a mom and that's where your power and purpose is!!

[elaine567]

You mean the SOB he was all along. The nice and charming one was the illusion... the one that dreams out loud hoping you believe him with future faking.

 

Just needed to fix that.

As I said " the "real him" is the SOB"

We(gen) tend to think and are led to believe he "turned into" a nasty piece of work... we fall in love with the good guy, we don't like to think we have been duped so we prefer to see the good guy as who he really is and something must have terribly gone wrong somewhere... and if we are really "in deep" we try to stick around to fix him...

[Beendaredonedat]

@been. Thank you for your opinion. I am not in limbo as both are a thing of the past, not to be resurrected. As for my marriage, it is in name only. My ex and I are in agreement. We have our arrangement, for a variety of reasons, none of which I intend to elaborate on.

Well, arrangements aren't anything new however:

 

I think it's pretty well known that most men actually worth having won't take you seriously if they know you're not free to take so best to go in without zero expectations of your married (or single) man/men. I don't think its in your best interests to view yourself as a victim of a married man who won't leave his spouse when you're a married woman that won't leave yours.

 

Have fun enjoying your "arrangement" but keep your heart safe.

[sagamore]

I’m very surprised, after all these posts, that you intend to remain married, even if only in name.

[PhoenixRising8]

Well sagamore, it's fairly simple. For the second time in my life, I am being selfish. I am controlling the narrative, rather than being controlled.

 

It all boils down to the financial. 50% of the assets are monetary, of which almost all are held under my name because I saved for them, not him. Because of our divorce laws (I do NOT live in the US), I would have to split those equally with him. Our physical assets would also have to be equally divided except that as a stupid young woman 'in love', I put my entire inheritance from the only people who ever loved me into our home. That represented a substantial amount of the purchase price. So again, he would get half of that. In the meantime, because of what he did to our daughter, she has refused to speak to him for the last year. Rather than be remorseful for the way in which he blew her identity and world up, he has threatened to disinherit her. While we are married, he can not will away any jointly owned assets without my consent, so I am protecting my child's financial future and my inheritance from his squandering it and willing it away to god knows who. Being 18 years my senior, and in his 70's with significant medical issues, he would get to live the dream while I would have to start watching pennies and have to sell my house in the process to pay him out. Fair? I think not.

 

He is living 2 hours away at our vacation property and being well taken care of financially. Neither of us intends to remarry. I have to support him for the rest of his god forsaken life anyway. He has been quiet as a church mouse the last 4 months, because I finally fought back on his terms. Even asked last week if there was any chance of reconciliation. Uhm, no. Not in this lifetime, or any other.

 

So in a nutshell, I am protecting my child's future and protecting myself. He could file but he knows it would be fruitless as he has brought out the beotch in me. I can (and would) drag this out for a til death do us part and waste a lot of money in the process, but at least he wouldn't get it, and he knows that. So he is playing ball.

 

There is only so far I can be pushed and he has pushed me over the line.

 

As for the other cretin in my life, he too has pushed me over the line and it is all I can do to refrain from spilling all to the BS.

Edited May 28, 2019 by LilKatKat

[BTDT2012]

As for the other cretin in my life, he too has pushed me over the line and it is all I can do to refrain from spilling all to the BS.

Wouldn't that expose you to the risk of her spilling all to your husband?

[PhoenixRising8]

And likely the only thing that's holding me back. But I do have a plan .... will likely not be executed soon as I must wait for a particular occurrence. You know what they say though ... revenge is a dish best served cold.

[BTDT2012]

The best revenge is living well.

[PhoenixRising8]

Yes, that too. But I can dream about revenge, can't I?

[Beendaredonedat]

Yes, that too. But I can dream about revenge, can't I?

 

Yes, as can both men you talk about in this thread.

[PhoenixRising8]

Yes, as can both men you talk about in this thread.

 

Your point? I haven't done anything to them that warrants revenge.