Never thought I'd be an OW (long post)

[BaileyB]

You have indeed blown through all of your “deadlines.” They were pretty meaningless.

 

You have talked at length about how difficult the last few weeks have been while he was on holiday with his wife in Hawaii... and yet, the moment he lands you run right into his arms... or rather, straight out for coffee...

 

You say that you are trying to make your peace with the fact that he is not going to be the one to end this, that you will have to make the decision. I wonder why you ever thought he would do the right thing by either you, or his family. He certainly hasn’t done so this far. It’s kind of ridiculous for you to expect him to do anything differently now...

[Aloha123]

The limited contact while they are on vacation followed by a deluge of messages when they get back is classic compartmentalization. My mm does this every time he goes on vacation with his wife. Just so you know. It’s playing out according to script. There’s nothing remarkable here.

[PinkPampies]

Op just a reminder...

It’s been four months since you first posted in October. It won’t change because you keep making excuses for him. Just accept this is your life as you have chosen and accept your role as the other woman. That would be best for everyone, it seems.

[Naivewomen]

My heart bleeds for you!! I know just how trapped and how infatuated you are with him. I am in recovery for 6 months now. You amd only you will know when you have had enough!! You will be sick and tired of the OW role, u will be continuously disappointed with his lack of empathy for how you are suffering, the lows will become greater than the highs. You will mentally and pshycially hit rock bottom!!! Save yourself now!! This is not love not matter what he tells you. Can he be by your side for the important stuff?? Keep going over the situations that are meaningful in your head.. you will get there. The pain is the worst pain you will ever feel. Trust me!! Once you get past the exhaustion of being in pain and walking through it you will start to heal. I'm 6 months out and it still lingers but not like before. Listen to the ones in the same exact situation as you!!! Watch "Dirty John" on Netflix you can see the actions of a serial liar. They r great at manipulation. You deserve better than this!! You deserve someone to move mountains for you!! You are wasting precious time!!! I'm here for you!

[Aloha123]

You know, in AA, when people drop off of the radar and stop going to meetings, it is usually thought that they are "back in their disease", i.e., they have fallen off the wagon and are back drinking again.

I see a similar dynamic on loveshack all the time, and I am certainly guilty of it myself.

We only come here and post, ask advice, etc., during the lows. Because that's when we are desperate and need support/ are doing anything to try to lessen the pain. When somebody stops posting, it's usually because they have "re-engaged" with the mm and either think they don't need this forum for the time-being and/or feel too guilty or disappointed in themselves to post.

I've often wondered whether the trick might actually be to keep coming back here and reading and posting when things are going well. Because it's easy to want to end things when they are bad, but we need to not break that chain during the "high" part of the cycle either.

[PhoenixRising8]

My heart bleeds for you!! I know just how trapped and how infatuated you are with him. I am in recovery for 6 months now. You amd only you will know when you have had enough!! You will be sick and tired of the OW role, u will be continuously disappointed with his lack of empathy for how you are suffering, the lows will become greater than the highs. You will mentally and pshycially hit rock bottom!!! Save yourself now!! This is not love not matter what he tells you. Can he be by your side for the important stuff?? Keep going over the situations that are meaningful in your head.. you will get there. The pain is the worst pain you will ever feel. Trust me!! Once you get past the exhaustion of being in pain and walking through it you will start to heal. I'm 6 months out and it still lingers but not like before. Listen to the ones in the same exact situation as you!!! Watch "Dirty John" on Netflix you can see the actions of a serial liar. They r great at manipulation. You deserve better than this!! You deserve someone to move mountains for you!! You are wasting precious time!!! I'm here for you!

 

Thank you NW.

 

I've said to him before if he is lying to me, he appears so genuine he should win an oscar! I generally have a pretty good BS meter and it hasn't gone off with him in almost a year. I have been focussing on that and the fact that he told his wife he doesn't love her, even just a few weeks ago. I know this to be a fact because I actually saw the text. I heard him tell his kids he didn't believe he could stay in the marriage. Why would you do that if it wasn't how you felt? Why put your family through that. Now I am focussing on me. I've been doing A LOT of self reflection. It's more about what is going on in my own head. What do I want? I wanted the affair in the beginning because I thought it would help me survive my marriage but my marriage is done now. So the purpose for the affair no longer exists.

 

I have a session with my psychologist in the morning. So much to talk about.

[PhoenixRising8]

You know, in AA, when people drop off of the radar and stop going to meetings, it is usually thought that they are "back in their disease", i.e., they have fallen off the wagon and are back drinking again.

I see a similar dynamic on loveshack all the time, and I am certainly guilty of it myself.

We only come here and post, ask advice, etc., during the lows. Because that's when we are desperate and need support/ are doing anything to try to lessen the pain. When somebody stops posting, it's usually because they have "re-engaged" with the mm and either think they don't need this forum for the time-being and/or feel too guilty or disappointed in themselves to post.

I've often wondered whether the trick might actually be to keep coming back here and reading and posting when things are going well. Because it's easy to want to end things when they are bad, but we need to not break that chain during the "high" part of the cycle either.

 

You are not entirely wrong. Except at the moment I am neither high nor low. Maybe I'm in denial or possibly shock. It was an evening of revelations I'm trying to process. Trying to take everything in and understand it. I do know I am very calm. No anxiety. Just calm.

[PhoenixRising8]

I hope you’re ok KitKat.

 

Hugs

 

Honestly I don't know how/what I am. So much has been said in the last few days. Lots of talk about the vacation and what did and didn't happen. What's going on in his head. Still trying to understand what it all means.

[elaine567]

The Sunk Cost Fallacy

 

The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences.

 

The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

[BaileyB]

This really breaks my heart. You are definitely back in your disease.

Edited February 15, 2019 by BaileyB

[Starswillshine]

Ok, Kat, so he said those things. And you have "proof". So what?

 

What has he done about it?

 

The people who believe they have a great BS detector seems to be the ones who get burned the best. So did my xWH's OW. She also was one to say she couldnt poke holes in any of his stories. It is sad because the way he always talked about her, I'm surprised he was able to perform her. Obviously, he had some attraction to her or he wouldnt have been with her; however, how incredibly disrespectful to talk so ill about her.

 

Your ego is getting in the way of rational though. Kat, he is a HUGE liar. Even if you have "proof" of these things, what has he done about it? You are just making it easier for him to stay in both relationships. Which is just perfect for him. You have determined that it is ok for him to disrespectful you, so IF he does leave... he can find someone else to be his side chick.

 

He is asking up to Rosanne Barr every morning, not you. And you continue to allow it. If this is what you allow, this is what you get, and it is time to stop fighting it and just accept it for what it is.

[BaileyB]

Your ego is getting in the way of rational though.

 

This is so true.

 

We can see that he is a HUGE liar. He lies to his wife, his children, and to you. And yet, you insist that your BS meter hasn’t gone off in almost a year.

 

In truth, every single thing this guy does is BS.

 

He has now gone back to love bombing. And you are falling back into his arms... except, next time you realize that this is all talk - it’s going to hurt twice as badly.

[BTDT2012]

Honestly I don't know how/what I am. So much has been said in the last few days. Lots of talk about the vacation and what did and didn't happen. What's going on in his head. Still trying to understand what it all means.

 

It means he isn't leaving his marriage. I don't believe you are his first rodeo.

[sagamore]

Honestly I don't know how/what I am. So much has been said in the last few days. Lots of talk about the vacation and what did and didn't happen. What's going on in his head. Still trying to understand what it all means.

 

He’s totally sucked you into his drama. What he said, how he feels, what he didn’t say, what she said, what happened or didn’t happen...ugh. Who has time for it?

[PhoenixRising8]

This^^^

 

Because his wife knows he isn’t taking action when he says those things - and you shouldn’t believe his words when he says he’s leaving.

 

This is a scene that’s played out between them before.

 

And he is skilled at getting you back into your OW role after pissing you off.

 

You are not his first OW. He’s too good at the whole thing.

 

And he isn’t leaving his marriage. He mainly wants to have an OW while staying married.

 

You are likely right that his wife knows, despite what he says, that he is a spineless jelly fish and isn't leaving because he hasn't. He says it's because a few months ago he committed to giving the marriage a go and he's trying to show her that he is, even though he has continued to pursue me and has literally done nothing to be discreet eg overnight stays, continuing to "work late" etc. But he doesn't want to be the bad guy. It's almost like he wants to get caught, in which case, he will be the bad guy no doubt.

 

She asked for his password for his phone while in Hawaii and he refused to give it to her. How do I know? Well his password has not changed and last night when he woke up, he couldn't find iPhone where he left it and when he finally found it, it was disabled. He doesn't understand why but I do. Someone tried to get into it with the wrong password too many times. This on the heels of his staying overnight the night before. Yes, I know, that was massively dumb of me. All this to say, it sounds like she may be losing patience with his shenanigans and is trying to get confirmation. If it were me, I know what I would be doing for confirmation. I would be taking that 25 mile drive to his office when he's "working late", asking Dick to check the phone bills, checking my credit card statements, sitting next to him and nonchalantly seeing the password he keys into his phone. She doesn't appear to have done that. Or maybe she has but isn't reacting although I find it hard to believe one could gather information like that and not react. I most certainly would. In any case, I have a feeling that D-Day may be not far off. I have no illusions that I won't be thrown under the bus because for him, "timing" isn't right as both the kids are struggling. While I get that he wants to see them in a better mindset, the truth is that before September/October, both were in a better place emotionally. It's his waffling, having one foot in and one foot out that has contributed, if not caused this emotional turmoil. He doesn't seem to get that.

 

He said a couple of months ago that he was making progress. When he returned he said he hadn't made progress. A couple of days later I asked him how it could be both. He said he had made progress on the guilt and obligation side because he's come to terms with the fact that his marriage is dead and Hawaii proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Where he isn't making progress is on the physical removal of his person from the marriage. I must admit I was impressed with the answer because he isn't one who generally thinks quite that quickly on his feet. He also went on to say this can't go on too much longer because he recognizes the longer it goes on, the greater the risk of discovery and the greater the risk he will lose me, neither of which he wants. Not sure he realizes both are closer than he may realize.

 

If he is someone who has done this before, he hasn't learned the art of discretion and maybe that's why I doubt he's done it before. He used to FaceTime now he just uses the mobile phone directly. It's his work phone. Dick, being both his boss and BFF to both of them could easily comply if asked to see if there are calls made to me. It wouldn't be hard to figure out that one number is being dialed at all hours: 6 am, midnight and later, numerous times in between daily, and even while in Hawaii. Those are not business calls as all his business is within 2 time zones of ours.

 

I've been doing a lot of thinking and self reflection the last few months and the last few weeks in particular. While I was away, the calls and messages were constant. He even called me right away when I was upset and talked me off the ledge when I was massively agitated because of the harassment my ex was throwing my way during my trip from thousands of miles away. He sucked me back in. When I returned it continued and when he left, I really suffered and thought about things. He's been back a week now and I let him see me 4 times, including the overnight. Here's the difference. It used to be that when we were together, I forgot everything. Since the week before he left, I don't forget. It isn't all rainbows and unicorns. It's me asking questions to see if I'll get the same answers, to see if I can trip him up. I haven't been able to. One thing I have realized though is that it's just as uncomfortable for me when I'm with him.

 

I've often said to my daughter that she doesn't need to put her hand in the fire to know it will burn. Seems I don't listen to my own advice. The good news is that all of my thinking has led me to some answers, or maybe the better way to describe it is that I have uncovered more I need to explore. I thought that I had made a major breakthrough some years ago when I finally acknowledged and accepted that my parents' abandonment of me was not my fault but rather the result of their own character flaws. I now realize that I needed to go further to understand that I also felt unworthy of being loved, despite the fact that I have always tried my best to please people, be kind and generous and live a life of integrity (last 11 months notwithstanding). My ex, in his own way, reinforced that feeling of unworthiness. I now recognize that and it's the topic of discussion with my therapist. Maybe that's why I keep holding on. Because deep down, I don't believe anyone will or can love me. Not the way I want or need.

 

PS I asked him about the cruise we have booked and said it was perhaps time to cancel. He said he didn't want the cruise canceled. We will make it. He has no idea that I canceled it a few days after he left. I think that was one step in my learning the art of letting go.

Edited February 18, 2019 by LilKatKat

[elaine567]

You fell into his arms with relief as predicted.

I get it, you have no other options and this guy is better than no guy at all.

You are holding out to "win" him eventually.

 

He is apparently going full steam ahead to probably push his wife into leaving him as he is too weak to make the decision to leave himself.

But is he? we don't really know. We can assume so, but he may so convincing in his excuses and lies that she has no idea he is cheating.

He may be so cocksure now that these actions that seems so risky are so calculated to be no risk at all.

If she has no access to his phone due to a password or fingerprint/face recognition, then he can do whatever he likes with it and if Dick already knows about you then he has that avenue covered too.

 

He has got you and his wife over the Hawaii hurdle with little damage done, so no doubt he is feeling pretty good about himself.

[stillafool]

Why do all of these stories sound the same? It's just amazing. Is there some Cheater manual that these MM study? It's the exact same script every time.

[PhoenixRising8]

You fell into his arms with relief as predicted.

I get it, you have no other options and this guy is better than no guy at all.

You are holding out to "win" him eventually.

 

He is apparently going full steam ahead to probably push his wife into leaving him as he is too weak to make the decision to leave himself.

But is he? we don't really know. We can assume so, but he may so convincing in his excuses and lies that she has no idea he is cheating.

He may be so cocksure now that these actions that seems so risky are so calculated to be no risk at all.

If she has no access to his phone due to a password or fingerprint/face recognition, then he can do whatever he likes with it and if Dick already knows about you then he has that avenue covered too.

 

He has got you and his wife over the Hawaii hurdle with little damage done, so no doubt he is feeling pretty good about himself.

 

Dick doesn't know. Dick was the one that convinced him he should try. He is a devout catholic. No way would he cover.

[BaileyB]

So, nothing has really changed.

 

He is waiting for his wife to make the decision because he doesn’t have the spine to do it himself... and you are waiting on the sidelines, cheering and hoping for that to happen.

 

You say, if you were his wife that you would be searching his phone, driving to follow him, wanting and needing to know the truth. Just be careful not to pass judgment on his wife you have all the truth and know exactly what kind of a man this guy is and yet, you are not going anywhere. You are still sitting there, right where he left you, waiting for “your turn.”

 

I can’t quite believe that you booked a cruise with another woman’s husband... I mean, how did you really think that was going to work?

[stillafool]

You fell into his arms with relief as predicted.

I get it, you have no other options and this guy is better than no guy at all.

You are holding out to "win" him eventually.

 

He is apparently going full steam ahead to probably push his wife into leaving him as he is too weak to make the decision to leave himself.

But is he? we don't really know. We can assume so, but he may so convincing in his excuses and lies that she has no idea he is cheating.

He may be so cocksure now that these actions that seems so risky are so calculated to be no risk at all.

If she has no access to his phone due to a password or fingerprint/face recognition, then he can do whatever he likes with it and if Dick already knows about you then he has that avenue covered too.

He has got you and his wife over the Hawaii hurdle with little damage done, so no doubt he is feeling pretty good about himself.

 

I vote that he is lying. He does however probably want his wife to find out so he can get the attention he so desperately craves from her.

[Starswillshine]

Dick doesn't know. Dick was the one that convinced him he should try. He is a devout catholic. No way would he cover.

 

Says him.

 

My xWH said something similar about his co-worker, too. It was a bold faced lie. I bought it hook line and sinker. As you are doing. You keep trying to trip him up.. your words. You keep trying to poke holes in his stories... your words. And how can you not see what is so obvious to us all. He is a conniving liar.

 

You think because he spends an overnight with you that means he picks you over her. Yes, for that night. Look at your opening post on this thread. And many in between. It seems more along the lines that you are so dug in and not wanting Rosanne Barr to win that you arent even looking after yourself.

[PhoenixRising8]

So, nothing has really changed.

 

He is waiting for his wife to make the decision because he doesn’t have the spine to do it himself... and you are waiting on the sidelines, cheering and hoping for that to happen.

 

You say, if you were his wife that you would be searching his phone, driving to follow him, wanting and needing to know the truth. Just be careful not to pass judgment on his wife you have all the truth and know exactly what kind of a man this guy is and yet, you are not going anywhere. You are still sitting there, right where he left you, waiting for “your turn.”

 

I can’t quite believe that you booked a cruise with another woman’s husband... I mean, how did you really think that was going to work?

 

It was going to work because he was leaving.

 

I'm not waiting and cheering. I am struggling knowing that if he leaves, it will likely be because of discovery, I will "have" him by default and I will have been complicit in hurting someone else.

 

As for not going anywhere, like he has one foot in and one foot out, so have I. My track record in pairing up with worthy men is not great. I've just come to realize, as I said in my long post, why that is. Knowledge is power. I'm working on gaining the knowledge of myself and my deep seeded fears and doubts and I've come a long way in the last few weeks. I guess it's only important that I realize this.

[PhoenixRising8]

I vote that he is lying. He does however probably want his wife to find out so he can get the attention he so desperately craves from her.

 

If he just wanted attention, he's got plenty of it from her since November yet he has accelerated his bad behaviour at home. He hasn't been home any more than usual and he hasn't stopped "working late" or overnighting it at his friend's. He hasn't pushed me away. He's done quite the opposite. It's me that's been pushing. Since November, almost every conversation and meet up is me grilling him and dissecting him. Maybe I'm the spineless jellyfish hoping he ends it so I don't have to. Maybe I don't think I'm worthy of anything better. Even when I make progress, it's dismissed.

[Starswillshine]

If he just wanted attention, he's got plenty of it from her since November yet he has accelerated his bad behaviour at home. He hasn't been home any more than usual and he hasn't stopped "working late" or overnighting it at his friend's. He hasn't pushed me away. He's done quite the opposite. It's me that's been pushing. Since November, almost every conversation and meet up is me grilling him and dissecting him. Maybe I'm the spineless jellyfish hoping he ends it so I don't have to. Maybe I don't think I'm worthy of anything better. Even when I make progress, it's dismissed.

 

Of course he isnt going to push him away. His wife allows it. You allow it. Simple. You are so focused on he keeps you on the leash. OF COURSE he keeps you there. He doesnt want you to go anywhere. But it isnt enoigh for him to divorce apparently.

 

You arent making progress. You are making excuses. It isnt our lives. So do as you please. Just hard to sit back and watch. I'm sure my friends felt the same amount of frustrations as well.

[elaine567]

Dick doesn't know. Dick was the one that convinced him he should try. He is a devout catholic. No way would he cover.

 

 

Plenty "devout" churchmen cheating on their wives, so I guess some will also cover up for their cheating friends...