Never thought I'd be an OW (long post)

[BaileyB]

Your ego is getting in the way of rational though.

 

This is so true.

 

We can see that he is a HUGE liar. He lies to his wife, his children, and to you. And yet, you insist that your BS meter hasn’t gone off in almost a year.

 

In truth, every single thing this guy does is BS.

 

He has now gone back to love bombing. And you are falling back into his arms... except, next time you realize that this is all talk - it’s going to hurt twice as badly.

[BTDT2012]

Honestly I don't know how/what I am. So much has been said in the last few days. Lots of talk about the vacation and what did and didn't happen. What's going on in his head. Still trying to understand what it all means.

 

It means he isn't leaving his marriage. I don't believe you are his first rodeo.

[S2B]

I don't believe you are his first rodeo.

 

This^^^

 

Because his wife knows he isn’t taking action when he says those things - and you shouldn’t believe his words when he says he’s leaving.

 

This is a scene that’s played out between them before.

 

And he is skilled at getting you back into your OW role after pissing you off.

 

You are not his first OW. He’s too good at the whole thing.

 

And he isn’t leaving his marriage. He mainly wants to have an OW while staying married.

[sagamore]

Honestly I don't know how/what I am. So much has been said in the last few days. Lots of talk about the vacation and what did and didn't happen. What's going on in his head. Still trying to understand what it all means.

 

He’s totally sucked you into his drama. What he said, how he feels, what he didn’t say, what she said, what happened or didn’t happen...ugh. Who has time for it?

[PhoenixRising8]

This^^^

 

Because his wife knows he isn’t taking action when he says those things - and you shouldn’t believe his words when he says he’s leaving.

 

This is a scene that’s played out between them before.

 

And he is skilled at getting you back into your OW role after pissing you off.

 

You are not his first OW. He’s too good at the whole thing.

 

And he isn’t leaving his marriage. He mainly wants to have an OW while staying married.

 

You are likely right that his wife knows, despite what he says, that he is a spineless jelly fish and isn't leaving because he hasn't. He says it's because a few months ago he committed to giving the marriage a go and he's trying to show her that he is, even though he has continued to pursue me and has literally done nothing to be discreet eg overnight stays, continuing to "work late" etc. But he doesn't want to be the bad guy. It's almost like he wants to get caught, in which case, he will be the bad guy no doubt.

 

She asked for his password for his phone while in Hawaii and he refused to give it to her. How do I know? Well his password has not changed and last night when he woke up, he couldn't find iPhone where he left it and when he finally found it, it was disabled. He doesn't understand why but I do. Someone tried to get into it with the wrong password too many times. This on the heels of his staying overnight the night before. Yes, I know, that was massively dumb of me. All this to say, it sounds like she may be losing patience with his shenanigans and is trying to get confirmation. If it were me, I know what I would be doing for confirmation. I would be taking that 25 mile drive to his office when he's "working late", asking Dick to check the phone bills, checking my credit card statements, sitting next to him and nonchalantly seeing the password he keys into his phone. She doesn't appear to have done that. Or maybe she has but isn't reacting although I find it hard to believe one could gather information like that and not react. I most certainly would. In any case, I have a feeling that D-Day may be not far off. I have no illusions that I won't be thrown under the bus because for him, "timing" isn't right as both the kids are struggling. While I get that he wants to see them in a better mindset, the truth is that before September/October, both were in a better place emotionally. It's his waffling, having one foot in and one foot out that has contributed, if not caused this emotional turmoil. He doesn't seem to get that.

 

He said a couple of months ago that he was making progress. When he returned he said he hadn't made progress. A couple of days later I asked him how it could be both. He said he had made progress on the guilt and obligation side because he's come to terms with the fact that his marriage is dead and Hawaii proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Where he isn't making progress is on the physical removal of his person from the marriage. I must admit I was impressed with the answer because he isn't one who generally thinks quite that quickly on his feet. He also went on to say this can't go on too much longer because he recognizes the longer it goes on, the greater the risk of discovery and the greater the risk he will lose me, neither of which he wants. Not sure he realizes both are closer than he may realize.

 

If he is someone who has done this before, he hasn't learned the art of discretion and maybe that's why I doubt he's done it before. He used to FaceTime now he just uses the mobile phone directly. It's his work phone. Dick, being both his boss and BFF to both of them could easily comply if asked to see if there are calls made to me. It wouldn't be hard to figure out that one number is being dialed at all hours: 6 am, midnight and later, numerous times in between daily, and even while in Hawaii. Those are not business calls as all his business is within 2 time zones of ours.

 

I've been doing a lot of thinking and self reflection the last few months and the last few weeks in particular. While I was away, the calls and messages were constant. He even called me right away when I was upset and talked me off the ledge when I was massively agitated because of the harassment my ex was throwing my way during my trip from thousands of miles away. He sucked me back in. When I returned it continued and when he left, I really suffered and thought about things. He's been back a week now and I let him see me 4 times, including the overnight. Here's the difference. It used to be that when we were together, I forgot everything. Since the week before he left, I don't forget. It isn't all rainbows and unicorns. It's me asking questions to see if I'll get the same answers, to see if I can trip him up. I haven't been able to. One thing I have realized though is that it's just as uncomfortable for me when I'm with him.

 

I've often said to my daughter that she doesn't need to put her hand in the fire to know it will burn. Seems I don't listen to my own advice. The good news is that all of my thinking has led me to some answers, or maybe the better way to describe it is that I have uncovered more I need to explore. I thought that I had made a major breakthrough some years ago when I finally acknowledged and accepted that my parents' abandonment of me was not my fault but rather the result of their own character flaws. I now realize that I needed to go further to understand that I also felt unworthy of being loved, despite the fact that I have always tried my best to please people, be kind and generous and live a life of integrity (last 11 months notwithstanding). My ex, in his own way, reinforced that feeling of unworthiness. I now recognize that and it's the topic of discussion with my therapist. Maybe that's why I keep holding on. Because deep down, I don't believe anyone will or can love me. Not the way I want or need.

 

PS I asked him about the cruise we have booked and said it was perhaps time to cancel. He said he didn't want the cruise canceled. We will make it. He has no idea that I canceled it a few days after he left. I think that was one step in my learning the art of letting go.

Edited February 18, 2019 by LilKatKat

[elaine567]

You fell into his arms with relief as predicted.

I get it, you have no other options and this guy is better than no guy at all.

You are holding out to "win" him eventually.

 

He is apparently going full steam ahead to probably push his wife into leaving him as he is too weak to make the decision to leave himself.

But is he? we don't really know. We can assume so, but he may so convincing in his excuses and lies that she has no idea he is cheating.

He may be so cocksure now that these actions that seems so risky are so calculated to be no risk at all.

If she has no access to his phone due to a password or fingerprint/face recognition, then he can do whatever he likes with it and if Dick already knows about you then he has that avenue covered too.

 

He has got you and his wife over the Hawaii hurdle with little damage done, so no doubt he is feeling pretty good about himself.

[stillafool]

Why do all of these stories sound the same? It's just amazing. Is there some Cheater manual that these MM study? It's the exact same script every time.

[PhoenixRising8]

You fell into his arms with relief as predicted.

I get it, you have no other options and this guy is better than no guy at all.

You are holding out to "win" him eventually.

 

He is apparently going full steam ahead to probably push his wife into leaving him as he is too weak to make the decision to leave himself.

But is he? we don't really know. We can assume so, but he may so convincing in his excuses and lies that she has no idea he is cheating.

He may be so cocksure now that these actions that seems so risky are so calculated to be no risk at all.

If she has no access to his phone due to a password or fingerprint/face recognition, then he can do whatever he likes with it and if Dick already knows about you then he has that avenue covered too.

 

He has got you and his wife over the Hawaii hurdle with little damage done, so no doubt he is feeling pretty good about himself.

 

Dick doesn't know. Dick was the one that convinced him he should try. He is a devout catholic. No way would he cover.

[BaileyB]

So, nothing has really changed.

 

He is waiting for his wife to make the decision because he doesn’t have the spine to do it himself... and you are waiting on the sidelines, cheering and hoping for that to happen.

 

You say, if you were his wife that you would be searching his phone, driving to follow him, wanting and needing to know the truth. Just be careful not to pass judgment on his wife you have all the truth and know exactly what kind of a man this guy is and yet, you are not going anywhere. You are still sitting there, right where he left you, waiting for “your turn.”

 

I can’t quite believe that you booked a cruise with another woman’s husband... I mean, how did you really think that was going to work?

[stillafool]

You fell into his arms with relief as predicted.

I get it, you have no other options and this guy is better than no guy at all.

You are holding out to "win" him eventually.

 

He is apparently going full steam ahead to probably push his wife into leaving him as he is too weak to make the decision to leave himself.

But is he? we don't really know. We can assume so, but he may so convincing in his excuses and lies that she has no idea he is cheating.

He may be so cocksure now that these actions that seems so risky are so calculated to be no risk at all.

If she has no access to his phone due to a password or fingerprint/face recognition, then he can do whatever he likes with it and if Dick already knows about you then he has that avenue covered too.

He has got you and his wife over the Hawaii hurdle with little damage done, so no doubt he is feeling pretty good about himself.

 

I vote that he is lying. He does however probably want his wife to find out so he can get the attention he so desperately craves from her.

[Starswillshine]

Dick doesn't know. Dick was the one that convinced him he should try. He is a devout catholic. No way would he cover.

 

Says him.

 

My xWH said something similar about his co-worker, too. It was a bold faced lie. I bought it hook line and sinker. As you are doing. You keep trying to trip him up.. your words. You keep trying to poke holes in his stories... your words. And how can you not see what is so obvious to us all. He is a conniving liar.

 

You think because he spends an overnight with you that means he picks you over her. Yes, for that night. Look at your opening post on this thread. And many in between. It seems more along the lines that you are so dug in and not wanting Rosanne Barr to win that you arent even looking after yourself.

[PhoenixRising8]

So, nothing has really changed.

 

He is waiting for his wife to make the decision because he doesn’t have the spine to do it himself... and you are waiting on the sidelines, cheering and hoping for that to happen.

 

You say, if you were his wife that you would be searching his phone, driving to follow him, wanting and needing to know the truth. Just be careful not to pass judgment on his wife you have all the truth and know exactly what kind of a man this guy is and yet, you are not going anywhere. You are still sitting there, right where he left you, waiting for “your turn.”

 

I can’t quite believe that you booked a cruise with another woman’s husband... I mean, how did you really think that was going to work?

 

It was going to work because he was leaving.

 

I'm not waiting and cheering. I am struggling knowing that if he leaves, it will likely be because of discovery, I will "have" him by default and I will have been complicit in hurting someone else.

 

As for not going anywhere, like he has one foot in and one foot out, so have I. My track record in pairing up with worthy men is not great. I've just come to realize, as I said in my long post, why that is. Knowledge is power. I'm working on gaining the knowledge of myself and my deep seeded fears and doubts and I've come a long way in the last few weeks. I guess it's only important that I realize this.

[PhoenixRising8]

I vote that he is lying. He does however probably want his wife to find out so he can get the attention he so desperately craves from her.

 

If he just wanted attention, he's got plenty of it from her since November yet he has accelerated his bad behaviour at home. He hasn't been home any more than usual and he hasn't stopped "working late" or overnighting it at his friend's. He hasn't pushed me away. He's done quite the opposite. It's me that's been pushing. Since November, almost every conversation and meet up is me grilling him and dissecting him. Maybe I'm the spineless jellyfish hoping he ends it so I don't have to. Maybe I don't think I'm worthy of anything better. Even when I make progress, it's dismissed.

[S2B]

It was going to work because he was leaving.

 

I'm not waiting and cheering. I am struggling knowing that if he leaves, it will likely be because of discovery, I will "have" him by default and I will have been complicit in hurting someone else.

 

As for not going anywhere, like he has one foot in and one foot out, so have I. My track record in pairing up with worthy men is not great. I've just come to realize, as I said in my long post, why that is. Knowledge is power. I'm working on gaining the knowledge of myself and my deep seeded fears and doubts and I've come a long way in the last few weeks. I guess it's only important that I realize this.

 

Knowledge only goes so far - ACTION is power!

 

When YOU do things to take back control of YOUR life you will feel powerful!

 

Look at your evidence... you have handed all of YOUR power over to HIM! He holds it all in what he does or doesn’t DO! And he’s doing nothing to change it.

 

And he is waiting on his wife - and she does nothing to change it!

 

So really, your power has been handed to HER as well!

 

Do you see how unhealthy that dynamic is?

 

Where is YOUR strength and courage to take YOUR life back KitKat?

 

Your future should not be placed in ANY man’s hands - much less a man who already has a commited marriage! He’s married! He’s staying married!

 

He’s using you... and you are ALLOWING it!

 

YOU are in the middle of his marriage! Consider this... you are actually at the mercy of any diseases SHE may carry. Is that graphic enough for you to understand you are also sleeping with his wife?

 

It should be something you think about every time you have sex with him!

[Starswillshine]

If he just wanted attention, he's got plenty of it from her since November yet he has accelerated his bad behaviour at home. He hasn't been home any more than usual and he hasn't stopped "working late" or overnighting it at his friend's. He hasn't pushed me away. He's done quite the opposite. It's me that's been pushing. Since November, almost every conversation and meet up is me grilling him and dissecting him. Maybe I'm the spineless jellyfish hoping he ends it so I don't have to. Maybe I don't think I'm worthy of anything better. Even when I make progress, it's dismissed.

 

Of course he isnt going to push him away. His wife allows it. You allow it. Simple. You are so focused on he keeps you on the leash. OF COURSE he keeps you there. He doesnt want you to go anywhere. But it isnt enoigh for him to divorce apparently.

 

You arent making progress. You are making excuses. It isnt our lives. So do as you please. Just hard to sit back and watch. I'm sure my friends felt the same amount of frustrations as well.

[S2B]

If he just wanted attention, he's got plenty of it from her since November yet he has accelerated his bad behaviour at home. He hasn't been home any more than usual and he hasn't stopped "working late" or overnighting it at his friend's. He hasn't pushed me away. He's done quite the opposite. It's me that's been pushing. Since November, almost every conversation and meet up is me grilling him and dissecting him. Maybe I'm the spineless jellyfish hoping he ends it so I don't have to. Maybe I don't think I'm worthy of anything better. Even when I make progress, it's dismissed.

 

Oh stop making excuses FOR him!

 

You’ve made it easy for him to run to you without filing for divorce.

 

You keep telling us you’re going to set a boundary and not talk to him or see him - but now we know you haven’t done that for yourself either.

 

 

He’s giving you crumbs - all while still married and taking happy trips to Hawaii with his wife.

 

Why can’t you see his actions prove he isn’t leaving her?

 

He’s a good user and manipulator though... what a catch.

[elaine567]

Dick doesn't know. Dick was the one that convinced him he should try. He is a devout catholic. No way would he cover.

 

 

Plenty "devout" churchmen cheating on their wives, so I guess some will also cover up for their cheating friends...

[S2B]

So he shows up at church every week pretending to be a man that honors his vows?

 

What a complete hypocrite.

[PhoenixRising8]

So he shows up at church every week pretending to be a man that honors his vows?

 

What a complete hypocrite.

 

No MM does not go to church. Dick does.

[Starswillshine]

Plenty "devout" churchmen cheating on their wives, so I guess some will also cover up for their cheating friends...

 

On the same token, a lot of extremely devout Catholics (read: priests) do some other deeds.

[elaine567]

On the same token, a lot of extremely devout Catholics (read: priests) do some other deeds.

True, one cannot assume "a Godly man" is a paragon of virtue

[NotADayGoesBy]

I guess I don’t understand why you waste your time grilling and questioning him. Have you tried: “I love you and want to be with you but I’m done being the OW. If you decide to leave your wife come back to me. Depending on how long that takes, I may or may not still be here waiting. In the meantime there is nothing left to say.”

 

No words needed, no long conversations where you try to tell if he is being truthful.

 

Just one action on his part.

[Amethyst68]

He committed to giving hid marriage a go? By continuing to lie and cheat, by staying out overnight with 'John'? This is the man you continue to insist is always honest with you? It's certainty not am honorable way to act.

 

 

Most people are not accomplished liars with only one person, it's strange he's very comfortable lying to his wife (and his family) but, in your mind doesn't lie to you. Is this the type of man you want to be with going forward.

[BaileyB]

I guess I don’t understand why you waste your time grilling and questioning him. Have you tried: “I love you and want to be with you but I’m done being the OW. If you decide to leave your wife come back to me. Depending on how long that takes, I may or may not still be here waiting. In the meantime there is nothing left to say.”

 

No words needed, no long conversations where you try to tell if he is being truthful.

 

It’s a good idea in theory, but to do this she would have to let him go and she could potentially lose him... something that she is not ready to do yet.

 

Listening to the drama allows Kat to keep a close eye on what is or is not happening in the marriage, which helps her to predict when he will be free and available to be with her...

[S2B]

It’s a good idea in theory, but to do this she would have to let him go and she could potentially lose him... something that she is not ready to do yet.

 

Listening to the drama allows Kat to keep a close eye on what is or is not happening in the marriage, which helps her to predict when he will be free and available to be with her...

 

Last paragraph... you mean knowing what’s going based on MM’s info he tells KitKat... which could easily be lies.