non believers that blame God! I hate this!

[smile95]

My question is why do non believers always say"How cold God let this hurricane, 9-11, etc happen if he is so great an why would he want all of these people die?"

 

This really bothers me! Why when something good happens do these same non believers not credit God???? They only think of it when it is something bad happening. The way we see God working is when we see the volunteers and communities helping those in need.

 

Sorry just had to vent! I get so angry when people say something like that. God never promised we would never die or that we would not be tested in life!

 

Any thoughts?

[LucreziaBorgia]

This reminds me of a something I read once in Catherine Marshall's novel 'Christy':

 

"Those who've never rebelled against God or at some point in their lives shaken their fists in the face of heaven, have never encountered God at all."

 

I can see an angry agnostic or a religiously-confused person using a G_d argument in that context as a way of projecting their own anger and confusion, but I would think that true, actual non-believers wouldn't use a 'G_d argument' particularly when they themselves don't believe. It wouldn't occur to them to say something like that, unless they were just being mean or ridiculing others for their beliefs (and trust me, both believers and non-believers are capable of that very human flaw). Sometimes belief or lack thereof doesn't even play into it. Its just an excuse to belittle or ridicule someone else. Unfortunate, really.

 

All you can do is say "to each his/her own" and move on, I guess. It works for me.

[RainyDayWoman]

My question is why do non believers always say"How cold God let this hurricane, 9-11, etc happen if he is so great an why would he want all of these people die?"

 

This really bothers me! Why when something good happens do these same non believers not credit God???? They only think of it when it is something bad happening. The way we see God working is when we see the volunteers and communities helping those in need.

 

Sorry just had to vent! I get so angry when people say something like that. God never promised we would never die or that we would not be tested in life!

 

Any thoughts?

 

i think when people say things like that, it's more hypothetical than anything else. if they don't believe in god in the first place, they don't really think god caused something to happen, whether good or bad.

 

it might be a way of saying "see, if god existed, this wouldn't have happened if he is supposed to be so great."

 

 

know what i mean? i know what i'm trying to say and what i mean by it, but sometimes it's hard to articulate perfectly from a computer!

[smile95]

interesting that you see it that way. The person that said this to me is trying to convince me God does not exist and is very condescending to me and my beliefs. She is atheist and prob using that in her argument like you said

[RainyDayWoman]

interesting that you see it that way. The person that said this to me is trying to convince me God does not exist and is very condescending to me and my beliefs. She is atheist and prob using that in her argument like you said

 

bingo!

 

then tell her if she's a serious atheist, she should not even be using the word god in her vocabulary.

 

i don't believe in god, but i certainly don't care if other people do. no one tries to convince me that i should be religious, so who would i be to convince them that their beliefs are ridiculous?

 

maybe you should tell her that if you want to maintain this friendship, that you either have to learn to respect each other's beliefs, or avoid the religion debate because all you get is frustration.

[Blackfrost]

so what you're saying is that Katrina is not an example of intellingent creation - unless the person whose says it meets your religious agenda?

 

Interesting

[d'Arthez]

bingo!

 

then tell her if she's a serious atheist, she should not even be using the word god in her vocabulary.

And if you are a believer the word atheist should not be in your vocabulary ? That will make communication easy ...

 

It is just an argument to show that the attribute of perfection believers often attribute to God seems to be ridiculous. The religious defence is of course that God's ways are not comprehendable by mere mortal thought. It is essentially a stalemate.

[RainyDayWoman]

And if you are a believer the word atheist should not be in your vocabulary ? That will make communication easy ...

 

 

notice the rolly eyes? that indicated not to take that particular statement so literally.

[d'Arthez]

notice the rolly eyes? that indicated not to take that particular statement so literally.

Of course.

 

But you can't have a discussion of high quality, if you don't try to put forward decent arguments. Making non-arguments will not solve the discussion, but only lead to mutual resentment and frustration. Which is exactly what is frustrating to the original poster.

[Outcast]

so what you're saying is that Katrina is not an example of intellingent creation - unless the person whose says it meets your religious agenda?

 

Intelligent design is something quite different from intelligent control

 

So theism holds it that God made the world and man, gave man free will, and basically said 'here's the rules - go behave; you're on your own'. Sometimes we pray. Sometimes prayers seem to be answered. I prayed that last year's hurricane wouldn't hit a large city and it took a right and missed Tampa. Did I do that? Maybe. Maybe not. But God's not Cosmic Santa Claus. He doesn't give you everything you want and he also doesn't go around flinging hurricanes and disasters at people.

 

Given free will, we have chosen to screw up the environment. Had the Gulf not been abnormally warm (due to the effects of global warming), it would not have held and strengthened Katrina as long as it did.

 

The levees in NO were built to withstand the sorts of storms people used to see but weather is getting more vicous everywhere. Huge floods in Europe, a tornado in Italy - all these things never happened like this before and God's not to blame - we humans are. We have used our God-given free will for greed, selfishness, and waste and we're ruining our home because of it.

 

It's just that humans need to blame someone or something when things they don't like happen and in absence of a human, they blame God, even if they don't believe in him.

[smile95]

good post outcast

 

I have decided to just tell this friend that we have to agree to disagree. You cannot explain faith to someone. It is to the point where she hurts my feelings. She says that God is like Santa and people who believe are just weak and scared to die and believe so that death is not so scary. I cannot argue with her anymore. I know God has graced my life and I do not need to prove it to her.

 

She will always call me and ask questions like......why do religous people do this and that and then I explain where it comes from and she just says.....I do not understand and I end up getting mad and so does she. She says if a murderer can kill and is catholic and be forgiven in God's eyes??? She takes stuff to extremes. I had to explain to her about free will and she still does not understand my point.

 

I am not sure how to go about telling her I do not wnt to talk about it anymore. The type of person she is she will say.....see you hav no defense and that is why you will not tal kabout it...i can hear it already! ugh

[Outcast]

The annoying smugness of atheists is almost as bad as the cram-Christ-down-your-craw fetish of the born-agains. I'd like to throw the two groups in a big sports dome and let them chew each other to bits.

[d'Arthez]

Notice, however that free will is a tricky thing in some forms of Christianity, especially if there are concepts of pre-destination in the balance.

 

Interestingly enough, I think you could hold that hurricanes and such can point to intelligent design. As can behavior of molecules and atoms. Just because we don't like the result it is not possible that something is intelligent - we simply do not comprehend the intelligence (yet). Hegel makes much more sense than he is often credited for.

 

In the end it will be two different perspectives on things. Which are on a different level of understanding.

[RainyDayWoman]

Of course.

 

But you can't have a discussion of high quality, if you don't try to put forward decent arguments. Making non-arguments will not solve the discussion, but only lead to mutual resentment and frustration. Which is exactly what is frustrating to the original poster.

 

obviously, i understand it. otherwise, i would have left out the rolly eyes.

 

 

but thanks for the help.

[Moose]

My question is why do non believers always say"How cold God let this hurricane, 9-11, etc happen if he is so great an why would he want all of these people die?"

Non-Believers don't have the right to blame God. How can they blame someone they refuse to believe in in the first place? Personally, I see that as a way for them to justify their reasoning for not believing in the first place, while at the same time, in-advertently confessing that He does indeed exist.

[d'Arthez]

Non-Believers don't have the right to blame God.

And we should apply the same logic to Democrats and Republicans . So they would need to look at the results of their own policies. Atheists don't blame God (if there is need for the definition of a contradiction, that is a good contender) - it is just that they cannot comprehend the concept of a Good God who allows for things like that to happen.

 

Personally, I see that as a way for them to justify their reasoning for not believing in the first place, while at the same time, in-advertently confessing that He does indeed exist.

That is nonsense. You could hold as an atheist that religious people are too weak to live on their own and have the need for a guiding hand, which offers comfort and certainty to those who believe in that - it does not mean that the religious person's experience of God is real, in the perspective of an atheist.

 

Of course both arguments are flawed.

[Moose]

- it is just that they cannot comprehend the concept of a Good God who allows for things like that to happen.

That still doesn't give them place to blame God for their lack of understanding, or laziness.

You could hold as an atheist that religious people are too weak to live on their own and have the need for a guiding hand, which offers comfort and certainty to those who believe in that -

Religion is a choice. Not a pre-requisite of survival. Again, who's being blamed for the non believer's ignorance?

 

A lot of people have a rude awakening coming to them.

[d'Arthez]

That still doesn't give them place to blame God for their lack of understanding, or laziness.

They don't blame God. Study the argument, fGs.

 

Religion is a choice. Not a pre-requisite of survival. Again, who's being blamed for the non believer's ignorance?

And who is blamed for the believer's ignorance (from the perspective of an atheist)?

 

A lot of people have a rude awakening coming to them.

That is your belief, not a fact. Not everyone believes in the Apocalypse, the End of Times, and Final Judgement. That is a fact of life.

[Moose]

They don't blame God. Study the argument, fGs.

I thought that's what this is about. Non-Believers blaming God for terrible events. It's not God's fault they are too lazy to study God's way......for goodness sake.

And who is blamed for the believer's ignorance (from the perspective of an atheist)?

I don't see much blame being placed, more accusations of being weak than anything else. It's a life choice, not ignorance, and athiests or non-believers justify this by dubbing themselves the stronger minority. That to me is nonsense.

That is your belief, not a fact. Not everyone believes in the Apocalypse, the End of Times, and Final Judgement. That is a fact of life.

Well you're right, BUT, as for me and my house, it is fact. It is Truth. Others are just ignorant of it, that's all.

[Horse]

I am an infidel, but this annoys me too. I can understand where the thought comes from; it's part of a flawed logical argument.

 

Premise 1: A benevolent god would not allow this suffering to happen.

Premise 2: This suffering happened

Conclusion: There is no benevolent god.

 

But I hate people trying to talk other people out of their faith as much as I hate people trying to convince me that I'm going to hell because I don't go to their church and believe what their church tells them to believe.

 

Actually an evangelical athiest makes even less sense. At least an evengelical Christians heart is usually in the right place. The christian is trying to save you from a hell that doesn't exist, the athiest is just being argumentative.

[Scalawag]

I think the act of blaming God for whatever reason is a way to justify rejecting him.

 

Horse

Another premise is that suffering is bad.

 

In a sense, the counterargument would be in Mat 13:29-30. The act of preventing evil or stopping evildoers could cause harm to innocent people.

Mat 13

29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

[quankanne]

beth, it sounds to me that she's trying to convince herself, of what I'm not sure. If she were as set in her belief (or non-belief) as she claims, she wouldn't give a rat's rump, you know?

 

just smile and ask sweetly, "why does it matter?" I've found that a person who is firm in their conviction isn't as defensive or abusive when another feels differently, simply because they respect that difference of opinion.

 

if she insists on making an issue of it, why, just tell her you think it's all Bush's fault ... :rolleyes:

[quankanne]

She says that God is like Santa and people who believe are just weak and scared to die and believe so that death is not so scary.

 

ah, if it were only that simple. Those people who believe in God understand what a complex relationship it can be, because we're asked to give up all earthly ways to live a life more oriented to his ideals, not ours. Are we weak for believing? Maybe to an outsider, to someone who sees it as us chucking aside all those things to follow some who probably doesn't exist, but those who are familiar even just a little bit with Him know you've got to be strong enough to allow yourself be empty before him ... not an easy task when there are so many bright, shiny, appealing things out there to distract you! It's much easier to give in, therefore be "weak," to those earthly desires than it is to give in to God!

[d'Arthez]

Those people who believe in God understand what a complex relationship it can be, because we're asked to give up all earthly ways to live a life more oriented to his ideals, not ours.

 

Giving up all earthly ways, is exactly one of the issues an atheist may have with a lot of believers. The life style of many Christians is not much different from the life style of many atheists, barring the attending of religious services (going to their respective places of worship on set times, celebrating religious days and events).

 

The giving up of all earthly ways of live is of course a noble ideal. But many who profess to adhere to that ideal don't live by it, in many an atheist's mind. Just the same as many atheists, with their non-forsaking of the pursuits of materialistic gain. Here you can make claims, and accusations without end to and fro.

 

And of course, the atheist will argue: how do you know what God wants? The endeavour to interpret Scripture is done by humans. And which variant of God? Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinistic, Chuch of Denmark, Anglical Church? I doubt that all of these will demand exactly the same things, to live a life "more oriented to his ideals, not ours."

 

I know quite a few of those conversion-minded atheists. So I am a bit familiar with their arguments.

 

Are we weak for believing? Maybe to an outsider, to someone who sees it as us chucking aside all those things to follow some who probably doesn't exist, but those who are familiar even just a little bit with Him know you've got to be strong enough to allow yourself be empty before him ... not an easy task when there are so many bright, shiny, appealing things out there to distract you!

 

A believer is not weak for believing. But you (general) can't twist the argument the other way around either: that atheists are weak for not believing, and will burn in hell. You may believe that, but it is far from fact or verifiable truth. It is just as ignorant and hurtful to maintain such an argument as the Truth, as to hold asTruth that God does not exist and the childishness of concepts in Christianity such as Heaven, the Second Coming and the Apocalypse, and that the afterlife is just a means to make life seem more rewarding to those who are suffering.

 

It's much easier to give in, therefore be "weak," to those earthly desires than it is to give in to God!

Probably true. But I doubt that "weakness" is solely limited to those of us who believe in a form of theism - it also applies to atheism.

[Moose]

You may believe that, but it is far from fact or verifiable truth.

Ok, whenever you say this, won't you agree, that I, being a believer can say the same about your outlook on the subject? That what you are saying is far from fact, or verifiable truth? It seems whenever you're challenged with this, you get defensive, when in Truth, it's a door that swings both ways........