non believers that blame God! I hate this!

[sugar-rae]

 

But should you ever suffer from distress, an atheist wouldn't turn their back to you just because you believe in something they don't believe in....that is so selfish, hypocritical and condescending to not respect someone elses beliefs (ex. if they believe God or organized religion is a waste of time) while expecting them to believe what you believe.

...

 

I will live the way [God] wants me to.

 

2Samuel 22: 47

 

The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation

 

Romans 1: 18

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

 

I do believe in Proverbs 1 He states if you continue to be a non believer He will "laugh at your calamity". If you don't seek Him and live for Him as He says, then, yes, it does state He will not listen to you. If you turn your back on Him he will "ultimately" turn His back on you. If you are ashamed of Him He will be ashamed of you.

 

I think it's pretty cut and dry, really. He created me, so if I don't live the way He wants, I deserve whatever He dishes out later.

 

I am not like the aetheists who question, "well, but if there isn't a God..." It isn't in MY nature. I am a child of God. I was born that way and I pray I'll see His face one day.

 

If you do not believe it, then I pray for you and am sad for you. truly sad.

 

I would rather spend my whole life believing in such a beautiful person over a moment of selfish destructive living any day.

 

Good luck to you, HCG. I hope MY God will bless you and bring you to where He wants you to be.

[seahorse]

I am a non-believer, and so I certainly can't blame other people's Gods for when things go wrong, or praise them when things go right, because I believe there is no spiritual being out there controlling events.

 

I understand that you were saying that those non-believers would use bad things as an argument for their non-believing case. Aside from natural disasters, bad things that happen on this planet are usually down to people, sometimes with their religion or beliefs being an excuse for their terrible behavour.

 

I feel awful for all those poor people caught up in the earthquake in Pakistan. That is a natural disaster. The American 9/11 atrocities were down to religious fanatics. Wars have taken place over many different things. I would say that the human race has, in modern times, caused itself more suffering and misery than any recent natural disaster.

 

I won't argue the case for or against your God. I chose not to believe.

[helena abadi]

i agree with Seahorse (hello Seahorse, how are you?!). man has made many of his own calamities. it is also a tragedy that religion has been the cause of conflict, wars and genocide throughout the ages. it is ironic that religions universally advocate peace, yet people fight wars over them!

[seahorse]

Hello Helena,

 

sent you pm lol.

[Apex]

i agree with Seahorse (hello Seahorse, how are you?!). man has made many of his own calamities. it is also a tragedy that religion has been the cause of conflict, wars and genocide throughout the ages. it is ironic that religions universally advocate peace, yet people fight wars over them!

Here is a short list of some nonreligious wars.

- War in Iraq

- Gulf War

- Vietnam War

- Korean War

- World War 2

- World War 1

- Civil War

- War of 1812

- Spanish American War

- War of independence

- Napoleonic Wars

 

You can make a list of all the religious (Christian in particular) wars.

 

I guess you can count the conquest by the conquistadors.

You are welcome to defend the Aztec practice of human sacrifice.

 

Wars started on religious (Christian in particular) grounds are the exception.

[d'Arthez]

A few examples.

Dutch Independence War, against Spain starting in the 16th century.

 

The German Civil War (1618-1648)

 

Papal wars, and the whole Papal State that existed in the Middle Ages.

 

A number of the crusades.

 

The whole Northern Ireland issue of the Orange Marches is also quite telling of religious influences, of the wars that have been waged, on Northern Irish society now.

 

The dubious role of the Vatican in the Second World War may not be forgotten also. The Vatican did not wage War, but "conveniently" forgot many of its teachings.

 

The dubious role of many churches / faiths, in the First World War. And then I am not talking to the reaction of various Churches to the Russian Revolutions of 1917.

 

The problem is of course that it is not the religion that wages the war, but an excuse leaders use to wage war. And of course, the leaders don't do the actual fighting.

But it cannot be denied that Church / faith leaders often also support the political leaders in their decisions with regards to war. How often has a war not been blessed, by religious leader x,y, or z?

 

Religion can often be used as a political tool, that is alike nationalism (not patriotism!). That is one of the reasons why a lot of non-believers are highly sceptical about organized religion: the tendency of the herd to follow the leaders in doing this or that, because supposedly the leaders know what they are doing, and are responsible too.

 

Of course, not every religious person falls in that category. But in the perception of many atheists many do.

[seahorse]

Apex,

 

by me:Wars have taken place over many different things. I would say that the human race has, in modern times, caused itself more suffering and misery than any recent natural disaster

 

Yes, religion has def had its place in causing misery, but human beings are quite able to start a fight over most anything. Land is always a good one.

 

My history isn't too good, but I'm pretty sure Hitler had a thing about Jewish people (surely a religion??) which resulted in The Holocaust. Nearly 6 million European Jews died. Why were they persecuted? Answer: They weren't Aryan. Neither were gypsies or black people but they were murdered too according to http://www.deathcamps.info/FAQ.htm.

 

Catholics were also persecuted during the war. http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html and other religions. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005433

 

Don't even start me on the Irish Troubles. We in Britain have had to put up with Protestant and Catholics having a go at each other, not only in Ireland, but where I grew up, near the partisan west coast of Scotland, where many schools are STILL divided into Catholic and Protestant! As a child I can remember being warned not to go a certain way home because the "big Catholic" boys were waiting to beat us up. Just go to any modern day Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic football match (the two biggest footie teams in Scotland) and hang about in Glasgow City afterwards if you want to witness faux religious based fighting, albeit small scale.

 

When I go home to Scotland now and anyone asks me which football team I support, (you might as well tell them which religion you are as tell them) I say I don't support football at all.

 

Is it any wonder I'm SO over religion?

[HotCaliGirl]

I think it's pretty cut and dry, really. He created me, so if I don't live the way He wants, I deserve whatever He dishes out later.

sugar-rae:)...If someone is a non-believer, then according to the bible God punishes 4 coming generations for that person's decision, and when David in 2Samuel has the husband of the lady he's having an affair with killed, God punishes his unborn child, kills him 7 days after he's born. Again, what a "loving" god! Future generations shouldn't deserve to get punished for something some knucklehead relative did, and I would think it sinful to praise such a "god". but if that's what you want to believe in, go right ahead, but please don't feel sad and pray for me because I don't believe in the same things you believe in. It's funny how believers attack and feel sorry for non-believers, but non-believers on the most part say believe whatever makes you happy, just leave me out of it because not to do so is what i think is what is selfish. As it stands, I think that when I die, I'm just going to rot and eventually turn to dirt, but if you think i'll be going to hell, hey, that's better than nothing! I'll take that alternative . I might even see my fellow non-believers, compared to just turning to dirt and not feeling or seeing anyone ever again...

 

If you do not believe it, then I pray for you and am sad for you. truly sad.

In all sincerity, what makes you sad about me not believing? I don't get it...

 

I would rather spend my whole life believing in such a beautiful person over a moment of selfish destructive living any day.

My life is not destructive or selfish...i give and help others, pay taxes, have never gotten in trouble with the law... so i don't understand why you are saying that...any specific examples?? I can name plenty of believers who kill, lie, cheat - in fact prisons are overflowing with extremely religious people, so I don't understand your point, why you think I am selfish and destructive.

 

Good luck to you, HCG. I hope MY God will bless you and bring you to where He wants you to be.

In all seriousness, how many Gods do you believe in? You have your own God, so you think there's 1 God per each believer or ?? Again, I'm just not understanding your view! (at the same time I am not feeling sad for you either, because I am happy for you to be happy believing or not believing whatever you want to!..."freedom of thought"...I'd just appreciate the same tollerance to be recipricated! )

[Leilen]

How to respond to folks like Sean St. John here,

 

http://www.betterhuman.org

 

who advocates the use of oppression to rid the world of religious faith ?

[amerikajin]

I don't think they're blaming God when they ask the question. They're just asking the question, "If there's a conscious, loving, caring God, how could he let so many people suffer?"

[Moose]

I don't think they're blaming God when they ask the question. They're just asking the question, "If there's a conscious, loving, caring God, how could he let so many people suffer?"

True. And here's the clencher, (at least the way I view it).....the reason so many people suffer, is because of our own free will. (even from our forefathers)

 

What most people don't want to understand is that even though it's our own free will that seals our fate, the outcome can be used as a lesson learned, or a punishment.

 

Most choose to view their fate as a punishment, rather than an outlet to share wisdom.

[Apex]

I don't think they're blaming God when they ask the question. They're just asking the question, "If there's a conscious, loving, caring God, how could he let so many people suffer?"

There are people who deny God's existence and they continue to curse him.

Suffering itself is not evil. It is the choices people make.

 

In Buddhism, suffering is evil.

In Christianity, suffering is something that can lead to spiritual growth. A test. The world is not a zoo.

[amerikajin]

True. And here's the clencher, (at least the way I view it).....the reason so many people suffer, is because of our own free will. (even from our forefathers)

 

No doubt, some people's suffering is self-inflicted, but certainly there are cases in which people just suffer because...they've been afflicted with something that is beyond their own control. My cousin's 6 year-old boy who died of leukemia...are you saying that it was his free will to suffer? I knew a guy with ALS, a truly horrible disease, and I doubt it was his free will to suffer. Are you suggesting that this was some kind of karma?

[amerikajin]

Suffering itself is not evil. It is the choices people make.

 

It also depends on the choices others make for them. I doubt the people of Iraq wanted their country reduced to a world cup for terrorists, but that decision was made for them by someone who professes a deep faith and love for a caring, loving God, sitting comfortably in a life of luxury some 10,000 miles away. I guess you could say it was their own tough s*** for living there, but that's philosophic extremism, untenable when applied to humanity as a whole.

 

In Buddhism, suffering is evil. In Christianity, suffering is something that can lead to spiritual growth. A test. The world is not a zoo.

 

I couldn't give a rat's rear end how Buddhism or Christianity choose to look at suffering. I prefer to look at suffering on terms that everyone can relate to, regardless of their spiritual background. I don't see all pain as suffering, but I see all suffering as pain.

 

Some pain can be remedied - with a pain tablet, a drink, a good talk with friends, money, or whatever resources someone has at their dispousal. That's not suffering; that's treatable and short term.

 

But some pain is extreme, and not so easily relieved. Some pain is beyond a person's control, for they haven't the resources to confront or escape it.

[Apex]

It also depends on the choices others make for them. I doubt the people of Iraq wanted their country reduced to a world cup for terrorists, but that decision was made for them by someone who professes a deep faith and love for a caring, loving God, sitting comfortably in a life of luxury some 10,000 miles away. I guess you could say it was their own tough s*** for living there, but that's philosophic extremism, untenable when applied to humanity as a whole.

I don’t think you understand how responsibility works.

 

Iraq was Saddam’s country before the US invaded. He was responsible for a number of atrocities. You can argue whether or not he got a blessing form the US, but the fact remains, he chose to commit those atrocities.

The US set out to remove a dictator, and they succeeded. Saddam chose to be uncooperative, and that eventually led to the failure of diplomacy. Bush chose to take military action after diplomacy failed.

The terrorists chose to attack and they did. They chose to attack both military and civilian targets. Contrary to liberal opinion, terrorists are culpable.

Criminals are responsible for committing crime. They are culpable for their actions.

I couldn't give a rat's rear end how Buddhism or Christianity choose to look at suffering. I prefer to look at suffering on terms that everyone can relate to, regardless of their spiritual background. I don't see all pain as suffering, but I see all suffering as pain.

Suffering is a general term. A person can suffer from physical and emotional pain. A person can suffer from loneliness, guilt, humiliation, etc.

Some pain can be remedied - with a pain tablet, a drink, a good talk with friends, money, or whatever resources someone has at their dispousal. That's not suffering; that's treatable and short term.

Maybe people are a little too pampered. Maybe we are overdue for another cataclysmic war, or plague.

But some pain is extreme, and not so easily relieved. Some pain is beyond a person's control, for they haven't the resources to confront or escape it.

Why wasn’t I born into privilege? Why can’t I have perfect health? Why don’t I have dashing good looks, or superior intelligence?

 

You work with what you have. If God gave you $1, you should give him $2. If God gave you $10, you should give him $20. If you have a longer life, you have more to do.

 

 

The process of escaping pain is one cause of our problems. For example, some people turn to substance abuse, crime, fantasy, or lies to escape reality. Some people blame others to avoid guilt.

[Greg25]

I suppose there are a number of ways to tackle the so called 'problem of evil.' Framed in terms of a philosophical argument, the problem of evil is basically this:

 

1) An omnipotent, all wise, perfectly good God, infinite in wisdom and attributes, exists.

 

2) Suffering, evil, and imperfection exist in the universe.

 

3) Suffering is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent and perfect being, because such a being would not allow suffering or evil to exist.

 

4) Therefore, an omnipotent, perfectly good God, does not exist.

 

The problem of evil is the most powerful argument (in my view) against the existence of God, because evil exists so plainly for all to see. Why didn't God prevent the holocaust? Why didn't God prevent Stalin or Mao (who murdered tens of millions) from being born? Surely a God who could part the Red Sea for the Israelites, who made Christ be born without a father from a virgin, or who sent the plagues on Egypt and manna from heaven, could alter things even just a little, to ease the misery we see so prevalent in the world.

 

The question then is either we have our understanding of God wrong, which we derive mostly from our sacred scriptures, and the theology we build on that wrong, or else God does not exist, at least not in the form in which God is depicted.

 

I feel the problem occurs when we attribute human qualities and emotions to God, the ultimate reality. All to often people picture God as a loving father, a glorified King perhaps, or like a being who will miraculously intervene in our life to change it for the better. These things in my view are symbols we use to make the incomprehensible real and tangible, when in fact God is infinite, invisible, and we can never know God as it 'is' in itself. We thus run into severe problems if we make out an idol of God as some glorified human being and expect ultimate reality to behave like that, and it doesn't. The workings of the universe don't make sense if we imagine God to be a capricious being who constantly changes his mind this way or that, but the workings do make sense if God is ever 'making it new' (as St Augustine noticed).

 

In a certain context, it is perfectly sensible to attribute human qualities to God for religious purposes, but in other contexts, our symbols break down. This is like in science when the model of the sun orbiting the Earth broke down because it no longer could explain what we experienced; likewise, while I believe God exists, the 'pictures' and 'words' we use to describe God sometimes will make no sense in some situations and contexts.

[Outcast]

3) Suffering is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent and perfect being, because such a being would not allow suffering or evil to exist.

 

The problem with the syllogism is that half of your third assumption is a false assumption and cannot be deduced.

[d'Arthez]

The problem with the syllogism is that half of your third assumption is a false assumption and cannot be deduced.

The problem may exist, but not necessarily, I think. It depends on the view of what is good, and whether or not non-opposal of evil is an evil in itself. Now it is harder to see something like that being deduced for suffering - but I am interested to hear how Greg25 sees that.

 

I must say, though that I do not think that such an argument proves much anyway.

[Moai]

As an atheist, I find it odd that someone who doesn't believe in god would blame that which doesn't exist.

 

As has been mentioned, some people blame god and give him none of the credit, but many believers give god the crecit and none of the blame.

 

The question if god is good how can he allow evil is a good one, and is asked by believers and agnostics alike. I don't believe in god, so I don't care one way or the other. It's like asking how Frosty the Snowman can see with coal for eyes.

[smile95]

As an atheist, I find it odd that someone who doesn't believe in god would blame that which doesn't exist.

 

As has been mentioned, some people blame god and give him none of the credit, but many believers give god the crecit and none of the blame.

 

The question if god is good how can he allow evil is a good one, and is asked by believers and agnostics alike. I don't believe in god, so I don't care one way or the other. It's like asking how Frosty the Snowman can see with coal for eyes.

 

he does not "allow" evil. The devil or the "enemy" as it is called is just as real to me as God is. So there is good and evil on earth. He does not allow evil to happen. he helps us cope with the evil that happens. We all have free will so God also helps us deal with people's wrong choices...ie. murders, attacks, etc.

 

Someone asked where was god during the hurricane and why did it happen and why would God let it happen if he was so good. God WAS there and VERY present through all the people helping afterwards. God never promised a perfect life. He promises life after death if you believe.

 

and ..to me, your comment about frosty is very condescending.

[Moose]

The question if god is good how can he allow evil is a good one

That's just it. (The way I see it), God doesn't provoke or stand idol at evil. Most of the time it's man's own free will that sets it loose. And most of the time, others are witness to God's wrath on those who cause it.

 

Natural disasters are a totally different beast. And as cruel as this may sound, man will always get in the way of nature, so you have to expect casualties.

 

Some may even consider those lost in these disasters as collataral damage instead victums....

[amerikajin]

That's just it. (The way I see it), God doesn't provoke or stand idol at evil. Most of the time it's man's own free will that sets it loose. And most of the time, others are witness to God's wrath on those who cause it.

 

I see the above as a condtradiction. On the one hand you're saying God doesn't intervene - then you turn around and say that others see the wrath inflicted upon those who cause evil.

 

And what 'wrath' would that be - death? Everyone dies, so I don't see how that's a wrath. I suppose he could burn in hell but nobody in this realm is able to witness that.

 

I just don't buy it. If God were the loving, merciful, interventionist God alluded to in the Bible, he wouldn't allow corporate big wigs to gut communities by shutting down their factories to save a buck, use child labor in some of the world's worst working conditions, dump chemicals into our rivers and make life miserable for people as they live in a bubble of luxury. He wouldn't allow people of the same ilk to get away with supporting a mass murderer on one hand as he tortures his own people, then allow him to piously overthrow said monster on dubious grounds a decade or so later and allow him to continue living in the same bubble of privilege and luxury. The reason people act this way is because they believe that God doesn't intervene...and it leads me to wonder: if they really feared God in the afterlife, would people do these kinds of things to each other?

[smile95]

That's just it. (The way I see it), God doesn't provoke or stand idol at evil. Most of the time it's man's own free will that sets it loose. And most of the time, others are witness to God's wrath on those who cause it.

 

I see the above as a condtradiction. On the one hand you're saying God doesn't intervene - then you turn around and say that others see the wrath inflicted upon those who cause evil.

 

And what 'wrath' would that be - death? Everyone dies, so I don't see how that's a wrath. I suppose he could burn in hell but nobody in this realm is able to witness that.

 

I just don't buy it. If God were the loving, merciful, interventionist God alluded to in the Bible, he wouldn't allow corporate big wigs to gut communities by shutting down their factories to save a buck, use child labor in some of the world's worst working conditions, dump chemicals into our rivers and make life miserable for people as they live in a bubble of luxury. He wouldn't allow people of the same ilk to get away with supporting a mass murderer on one hand as he tortures his own people, then allow him to piously overthrow said monster on dubious grounds a decade or so later and allow him to continue living in the same bubble of privilege and luxury. The reason people act this way is because they believe that God doesn't intervene...and it leads me to wonder: if they really feared God in the afterlife, would people do these kinds of things to each other?

 

again....all of the above goes back to free will. God gives you direction and if you do not follow it, then he is not responsible for the outcome. he does not "allow" anyone to do anything. People make their own choices and God does the best he can to lead us. Some people do not want to be lead, make their own decisons, and therefore, cause others harm. Not God's "fault" that people do not live healthy and loving lives and choose to dump chemicals, mass murders, etc. God is not responsible for OUR actions.

[amerikajin]

again....all of the above goes back to free will. God gives you direction and if you do not follow it, then he is not responsible for the outcome. he does not "allow" anyone to do anything. People make their own choices and God does the best he can to lead us. Some people do not want to be lead, make their own decisons, and therefore, cause others harm. Not God's "fault" that people do not live healthy and loving lives and choose to dump chemicals, mass murders, etc. God is not responsible for OUR actions.

 

I tend to agree that God is not an interventionist.

 

But at the same time, I think it's a fair question to ask: if God is so loving, how could tolerate the pain and inhumanity that exists on this earth?

 

I don't necessarily ask that question, but I can understand why others do.

 

Edit:

 

Moose,

 

Hey man, I was a bit abrupt. I didn't mean to sound so cynical with the 'God in the Bible' comment. I guess what I meant was if it was the same God I hear people talk about sometimes - I think you know the kind I mean.

 

I guess I come across as having a hard-on for God when in fact it's not that way at all. I believe in God, and I believe that God can be merciful in some situations. I just tend to think of it as a matter of mercy that is built into the system, not so much a spontaneous directive if you will. I think God has his eye on humanity, and I tell ya, he/she/it must be shaking his head at us.

 

Here's where I depart and commit heresy: I don't think God is perfect. I think God actually f*cked up when he made us. Some say that original sin was our free will and not God's doing, and to a point that may be true, but I think he left us with too many of our natural tendencies in tact. Things like greed, selfishness, etc...I think there's a flaw in our software. Who else can I blame but God? Even so, I still respect God, wouldn't dare challenge God...but that doesn't mean I even have to like everything that God does.

 

And what's more, I think God is actually open-minded enough to understand that...even if he respectfully disagrees with me.

[Outcast]

But at the same time, I think it's a fair question to ask: if God is so loving, how could tolerate the pain and inhumanity that exists on this earth?

 

Because He said it's up to us. If you're so loving, how can you tolerate your kids doing self-destructive things? What's that? You say there's only so much you can do? Surely you could lock them up in boxes for life to prevent them from doing what they intend.

 

Because that which seems horrible pain and suffering looms large in our tiny lifetimes. Remember the agony you felt when your third-grade buddy was mean to you? At the time it was a tragedy, but time and memory passes quickly and now you have no remembrance of it. Well, imagine how you'll feel about this 'wretched pain and suffering' in a couple hundred years? A couple thousand?

 

Our existence here is merely a blink in time and when we're away from it, we'll understand that in the (literal) grand scheme of things, this agony will be completely insignificant.

 

We keep thinking that the next life is this life all over again. It was amusing to watch the Barbara Walters special and see people of all faiths talking about being able to eat all you want and not get fat in heaven LOL. I suspect it's a much, much vaster experience than we can possibly hope to imagine now and that this little existence will appear as miniscule and insignificant as it actually is.

 

So as you comfort your little kid over his most recent painful scratch which has him yowling in agony, you know that he won't be the least bit concerned about it in a day or two.