The push/pull

[Lotus_Luna]

AP ended things a few months ago. We’re friends, he’s hekping me with my business. He’s been extremely generous and over delivered across the board with work.

 

The hard part is figuring out our new groove. We started to fall into old ways last month and since then it’s stopped. He’s not flirtatious although he’s now being extremely tender and supportive emotionally.

 

Wants me to know how courageous and brave I am for making big life changes and working through my trauma (I’m in an abusive marriage, which I’m trying to leave). I do think he’s genuine, our relationship was never built on sex. We were friends for years...

 

But it’s painful to receive such deep sentiments from someone, feel them work hard and invest in your future but have him still actively pull back. It makes me feel confused about where I stand.

 

This is a conversation I plan to have. Simply because I don’t care for his indecisive behavior.

 

But I just needed to get it out there.

[carhill]

Similar situation but I've changed and am no longer like your fAP. For me, now, relationships progress or end. Yes, plateaus are OK but I don't go backwards. I've stuck to that. I also never get invited into a woman's bed, married or single if we're not going to be bangin the sheets. Nuh, uh, no cuddle buddy stuff for this oldster. Been manipulated far too often by women for that.

 

Push/pull is a natural MM/MW trait if they're not pros. It's a natural extension of their indecision and vacillation. Keeping feet in both relationships and hands firmly on the branches of two trees deciding which to swing to.

 

A pro makes clear decisions and enjoys the moments in either universe without burdening others with their process. I've met pros. They're a pleasure. Clear, unambiguous, say what they'll do and do what they say. While, sure, most people don't like the affair thing, at least these folks are straight shooters about it.

 

The MW I'm thinking of has been friends for over a generation. For many many years we were just friends, nothing, never gave her a second thought or really noticed any sort of attractiveness. I'm wired funny that way. She was married, EOS. I accept that for myself I'd never be able to go back to those times and places. It's not in my wiring. Like with my wife, progress or end. We ended. She's not a friend. She's a zero, not meaning a bad person (she's not at all) but rather no interest in nor attraction to ever again. Done, over. It'll be the same with any MW I encounter. I won't back down to a friend after any progression to romantic or sexual intimacy. It would be a lie. Cool for her, she gets what she wants, but still a lie. No bueno.

[Lotus_Luna]

This entire situation comes very unnatural to him.

 

For me, it’s easier.

 

He’s not particularly vocal about his feelings. He’s tokd me he breaks all his moral rules with me and doesn’t know what he should do about it.

 

Trying to stay in contact while not pushing the boundaries keeps thingsbsafe.

Edited November 12, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[FMW]

He doesn't want you to hate him and he doesn't want to feel like the bad guy. He likely also wants to keep you as an option in the future in case the marriage hits a rough spot (although he'd never admit that).

 

Unfortunately having to have regular contact with him is going to be painful and confusing regardless of how tender or not he is with you.

[Lotus_Luna]

He doesn't want you to hate him and he doesn't want to feel like the bad guy. He likely also wants to keep you as an option in the future in case the marriage hits a rough spot (although he'd never admit that).

 

Unfortunately having to have regular contact with him is going to be painful and confusing regardless of how tender or not he is with you.

 

I really think being the bad guy issue is heavy for him. I don’t think the marriage has gotten any better over the last few years, but I don’t ask. I’d like to pick the relationship up again. It still serves a purpose for me.

 

We are going to have contact for years. But now hes embedded himself in my professional life and I will Be in need of his assistance for awhile.

[carhill]

Professional life - providing services for pay.

 

Personal life - moving a friend's furniture on a weekend. Listening to their problems. Hugging them at a funeral. Etc.

 

Did plenty of the former. Did some of the latter when young. Marriage cured me of that.

 

Men are usually pretty easy. Their main use of women is sexual followed on with emotional support and love *from* the woman. That hole goes dry pull up the rig and move to another hole. Women, OTOH, they're fine with a man *giving* them attention and support even if they feel nothing for him. If he withdraws that, they're still fine with any services he offers because, well, men live to protect and serve women. Their mothers trained them well.

 

Once I rewrote the programming regarding women, life got easier. The shocker? They didn't really care. They never did. I was just too programmed and naive to see it.

 

The best AP's are master readers. In general, women are better readers than men. They're more tuned to minute details and can process them more quickly across the hemispheres of the brain. They're more intuitive, in general. They know how to groom a man. I see that right now with the current MW of interest. I'll bet she doesn't even realize what she's doing. IDK, maybe she does. I've always thought it's instinct, that push and pull. Maybe it's cognitive, like a computer processes data. I see it more cognitive in men, even outliers like myself. A mystery I'll likely take to my grave.

[Mrs._December]

Seems like a lot of married men want to continue being in the lives of their OWs as 'friends.'

 

Quite honestly, I believe it's just a way for them to continue to get the emotional satisfaction they were getting during the affair. He no doubt lied to his wife and told her you're no longer in contact at all, but most cheaters tell that story to their BS's when they really haven't cut contact, so it's kind of standard procedure.

 

He's kind of like an emotional vampire, looking to you to fulfill his emotional needs while he goes home every day and tells his wife how happy he is in 'reconciliation.'

[Lotus_Luna]

Seems like a lot of married men want to continue being in the lives of their OWs as 'friends.'

 

Quite honestly, I believe it's just a way for them to continue to get the emotional satisfaction they were getting during the affair. He no doubt lied to his wife and told her you're no longer in contact at all, but most cheaters tell that story to their BS's when they really haven't cut contact, so it's kind of standard procedure.

 

He's kind of like an emotional vampire, looking to you to fulfill his emotional needs while he goes home every day and tells his wife how happy he is in 'reconciliation.'

 

She doesn’t know anything.

 

My husband knows about it. But our relationship is much different.

[Amethyst68]

Since hrs such an old family friend and you've had this bond fur years before the affair do you not have a similar relationship with his wife?

 

 

Our is yet another honorable MM who thinks nothing of hiding a friendship with another woman, no matter how innocent (until it isn't), from his injuring spouse?

[Lotus_Luna]

Since hrs such an old family friend and you've had this bond fur years before the affair do you not have a similar relationship with his wife?

 

 

Our is yet another honorable MM who thinks nothing of hiding a friendship with another woman, no matter how innocent (until it isn't), from his injuring spouse?

 

I knew him for a long time but hardly saw her. I’ve gotten to know her better recently. He was the stay at home parent so we had more opportunities to socialize. He never hid me from her... and my husband knew him as well

[DKT3]

I knew him for a long time but hardly saw her. I’ve gotten to know her better recently. He was the stay at home parent so we had more opportunities to socialize. He never hid me from her... and my husband knew him as well

 

You make it sound as if they know the depths of this relationship. I knew my wife was friendly with the other guy, I didn't know she had slept with him. So yes you are a secret

[Lotus_Luna]

You make it sound as if they know the depths of this relationship. I knew my wife was friendly with the other guy, I didn't know she had slept with him. So yes you are a secret

 

She obviously doesn’t know we’ve been involved in an EA. If he chose to tell her, I would be supportive. I’m well aware of the reality of our actions and the impact it would have on others.

[carhill]

The push/pull people will use the 'oh, my we might be discovered' social hack to play the mark, pulling them in when they 'gotta have you' and pushing them away when 'my spouse might find out'. Classic stuff.

 

The pros don't mess with that stuff. The marriage is in a different box and is irrelevant to the affair. That's especially easy with EA's, which are generally the purview of women (as the married person) because there's no sex to process out and separate from marital sex.

[Lotus_Luna]

The push/pull people will use the 'oh, my we might be discovered' social hack to play the mark, pulling them in when they 'gotta have you' and pushing them away when 'my spouse might find out'. Classic stuff.

 

The pros don't mess with that stuff. The marriage is in a different box and is irrelevant to the affair. That's especially easy with EA's, which are generally the purview of women (as the married person) because there's no sex to process out and separate from marital sex.

 

What’s so weird is I can’t relate to half the stuff posted here.

 

My push/pull is sometimes he gets quiet. We see one another in person regularly but he isn’t always available to text.

 

He’s never made comments about his wife finding out. But for obvious reasons he doesn’t want her to know because it would hurt her.

 

I don’t feel our relationship needs to be intertwined with his marriage. Both serve separate functions.

[carhill]

If you can't relate, that would indicate that push/pull isn't a part of your MM's deal. IDK if it's part of yours, if you are married.

[Lotus_Luna]

If you can't relate, that would indicate that push/pull isn't a part of your MM's deal. IDK if it's part of yours, if you are married.

 

Oh I’m consistent.

 

I guess when he gets quiet due to work or other personal activities I get insecure. He’s just kinda inconsistent about when he’s available, which in the past he told me was due to work and the kids schedule.

 

We’ve ended the relationship three times. Once when we realized what was happening, he apologized for leading me on and realized what we engaged in was only hurtful. The second time something happened in his life, he said it got complicated and he needed to start using his boundaries in ALL aspects of life. The third time is when my personal life went into crisis and I needed space to deal.

 

I’ve never been used for sex or sexting.... he’s super sensitive about me feeling respected in whatever we do.

 

Butbwere both well aware, end of the day, he’s married and our relationship can’t threaten that.

[carhill]

Yep, sounds clear and unambiguous. If a silence is desired or needed, it's communicated. That happens.

 

Daily stuff is like with any other non-marital/LTR situation. Stuff happens. Easy to become concerned but long ago I learned to ramp down expectations, rather enjoyed the time as it occurred, as with anyone else. If plans changed, that's OK. Plans change. Go with the flow. If it didn't flow, and I felt it wasn't working, let it go. Say goodbye and thank you and next. Marriage was a wonderful teacher about that stuff.

 

Fortunately, you're both clear about the demarcation between marriage and any other association. I've had some doozies in the past and some real head scratchers in the present. Perhaps someday I'll share some of that stuff. Mostly I don't kiss and tell except for generalities.

[Lotus_Luna]

Yep, sounds clear and unambiguous. If a silence is desired or needed, it's communicated. That happens.

 

Daily stuff is like with any other non-marital/LTR situation. Stuff happens. Easy to become concerned but long ago I learned to ramp down expectations, rather enjoyed the time as it occurred, as with anyone else. If plans changed, that's OK. Plans change. Go with the flow. If it didn't flow, and I felt it wasn't working, let it go. Say goodbye and thank you and next. Marriage was a wonderful teacher about that stuff.

 

Fortunately, you're both clear about the demarcation between marriage and any other association. I've had some doozies in the past and some real head scratchers in the present. Perhaps someday I'll share some of that stuff. Mostly I don't kiss and tell except for generalities.

 

My insecurities wonder if the lack of contact for a few days means something... but then again, we’re not really ‘on’ right now anyways. It’s a holiday weekend and he’s enjoying it as such...

 

Then I remember an entire birthday party hebsoent texting me... so I feel confused.

 

I don’t want a relationship with anyone else. He’s really the only guy I feel anything for. Once it’s done, I’m done for awhile. Get my divorce, get my life in order and start over.

[Amethyst68]

Since you know the wife is there any guilt about intruding into their relationship?

 

I have read some of your other posts so know you are working your way out of an unhappy marriage so do you not feel anything about inserting yourself into someone else's relationship?

 

I know you feel this man is somehow different but he is just your basic liar and cheat. If you both, somehow, left your spouses and got together do you really think you could trust him?

[carhill]

People who use other people often use the push/pull as an effective social hack. However, the OP appears to be relating that the push/pull isn't really a feature of their association, rather was more interested in it generally.

 

Also, people lie selectively and cheat selectively. We see this all the time in life. A person can be steadfastly loyal and honest with one person or a group of people and lie, cheat and steal from others. It's part of our tribal nature. Of course they're not going to broadcast that to the world. It's covert. Infidelity is little different. People decide that individually. Most do what benefits themselves, even if it sometimes, or even often, is perceived as loving and generous. Those are the most skilled socially. They know how to make others believe them. I kinda admire them.

 

OP, how about you? Have you lied to your MM about your life or marriage? Cheated him to gain something for yourself? Compare that to how you've treated other people, both people you love, like and hate. Take a look at it and how you, or I, use social hacks to go through life.

 

I heard an interesting line from one MW recently. She said snitches belong in ditches with stitches, I presume she meant of their mouth, to shut them up. I got that after telling her H she'd fallen, apparently something she didn't want him to know. Why I have no idea. Such little examples, moments in time, underscore how complex humans are and life, in general, is not black and white. I used to think it was. I kinda miss those times.

[Amethyst68]

No, I find the people I know who have integrity tend to act with integrity.

What you describe is people excusing their behaviour with circumstance, if that's what gets you through your life fine but no, it's not acceptable to all or even most people.

[carhill]

Since we can't read minds we have no way of knowing for sure if and when people 'act with integrity' or not. Impossible. We can believe and trust though. That's a leap of faith.

 

Anyone can be anyone here and anyone can lie through their teeth without detection or consequence. Happens!

[Lotus_Luna]

Since you know the wife is there any guilt about intruding into their relationship?

 

I have read some of your other posts so know you are working your way out of an unhappy marriage so do you not feel anything about inserting yourself into someone else's relationship?

 

I know you feel this man is somehow different but he is just your basic liar and cheat. If you both, somehow, left your spouses and got together do you really think you could trust him?

 

Could I trust him? Yes

 

My biggest concern would be making sure whatbwebtbwrong in our marriages didn’t happen in our relationship.

 

I find it interesting how people assume one’s complete integrity based on one small aspect of their lives.

 

I’m a conservative, traditional old school kind of gal. I didn’t have sex until after I was married... not even close to sleeping with anyone. Immorality is a sin. I was submissive wife, I stayed home with the kids, devoted myself to supporting my husband and raising our family. I have good friends and community. People really like me, they find me sensitive and loyal, supportive to those who are having their own trials.

 

I’m well aware of my choice. It’s wrong, it has consequences. And while I may have GUILT (more for the children then mates) I do not carry SHAME. Two different things...

 

I was NEVER the person anyone pegged as a cheater, my friends were STUNNED. Likewise for him. He’s never been sexually promiscuous, few relationships and takes his job as a father very seriously.

 

 

We’re both two people who made a choice that goes against our character because we’re so unhappy/unfulfilled with our marriages.

 

It happens... A LOT

[Amethyst68]

I find it interesting that you consider an affair to be "one small thing" when it could blow up so many people's lives. Especially the childrens, seems contradictory to someone who takes his role as a father so seriously.

[PhoenixRising8]

I find it interesting that you consider an affair to be "one small thing" when it could blow up so many people's lives. Especially the childrens, seems contradictory to someone who takes his role as a father so seriously.

 

I’m getting the sense from your response on my thread and others that you may have been a BS but never an OW.

 

I can relate to OP. She describes me and my MM almost to the letter. Good, upstanding people with integrity can do things they wouldn’t generally do, under particular circumstances. It isn’t that uncommon as I’m coming to learn. Not all cheaters will cheat again. Not all cheaters are bad. Some of us are just desperate to find relief.