Guilt or Generosity

[Ronni_W]

The people you two are describing dont have extra marital relationships.

That is making a leap for which you have no evidence, DKT3. I do not speak for Lotus-Luna, but, in my case, extra-maritals were indeed a factor in the whole big mess.

My contention is that even an extra-marital ought not to have that much control that it changes one's basic kind and caring nature, and positive outlook on life.

I am NOT saying that that is easy to achieve, but I am telling you that it is possible. ("What one can do, anyone can do.")

 

It is a free-will decision and choice to stay in blame, resentment and contempt...or to try to rise above it. That is my contention, though, just to be clear,

I am not asking anyone else on this planet to affirm or agree with it.

[elaine567]

What’s a mystical experience?

Some sort of an "awakening" which has made him feel the need to be generous with his time and money, a "Come to Jesus" moment maybe?

[Ronni_W]

What’s a mystical experience?

Not based purely on physical-manifested circumstances, conditions or events; taking into account metaphysical or intuitive perceptions and/or experiences.

[Lotus_Luna]

The people you two are describing dont have extra marital relationships.

 

I think many therapists would greatly disagree with this statement.

[Lotus_Luna]

Not based purely on physical-manifested circumstances, conditions or events; taking into account metaphysical or intuitive perceptions and/or experiences.

 

I can’t speak of that.

 

I do know, I have always treated him with dignity and respect. Even when hurt I don’t lash out, I communicate in a calm and direct manner. My sensitivity and gentleness has been a trait he’s always valued. In the end, it allows us the ability to talk through things and be able to work together.

 

He was very afraid of communication when we first started. He had learn it just caused additional pain.

 

Which I think makes the guilt worse, he can’t get mad at me for being a bitch or unreasonable...

[Ronni_W]

Which I think makes the guilt worse, he can’t get mad at me for being a bitch or unreasonable...

You seem to be attached to wanting him to feel guilty...is that accurate...and, if so, why are you attached to that?

 

(What you mentioned is not related to 'mystical experiences'...so, that may not be part of this particular thing.)

[Lotus_Luna]

You seem to be attached to wanting him to feel guilty...is that accurate...and, if so, why are you attached to that?

 

(What you mentioned is not related to 'mystical experiences'...so, that may not be part of this particular thing.)

 

I’m not attached to the idea of guilt. It seems like the most logical choice. Emotionally, I feel he did it because he genuinely cares about my well being and success. Which is why he offered and over delivered...

 

But guilt is more likely the cause

[Ronni_W]

I’m not attached to the idea of guilt. It seems like the most logical choice. Emotionally, I feel he did it because he genuinely cares about my well being and success. Which is why he offered and over delivered...

 

But guilt is more likely the cause

That's what I meant...I'm not getting why, to you, does, guilt "seem like the most logical choice?" -- other than you are attached to the idea that "guilt is the most logical choice" and

"guilt is more likely the cause"...rather his behaviour and actions are just due to a kind and/or caring nature that he has, that maybe he is good at hiding?

 

You have already acknowledged that guilt is NOT the 'likely cause' for people who are just genuinely kind. So...why is it not genuine kindness but, instead, guilt, that is driving this particular guy?

(See what I mean? -- not sure if I'm being clear about why I'm confused in all the different things that I'm interpreting you are saying. Could be that my interpretation is just totally way off.)

 

I'm also reading that you're saying -- and, I am paraphrasing here -- "He feels guilty...which is why he cares about my well-being...which is why he offered and over-delivered."

But, quite honestly, I'm still not seeing any linear logic in that line of thinking.

[Lotus_Luna]

That's what I meant...I'm not getting why, to you, does, guilt "seem like the most logical choice?" -- other than you are attached to the idea that "guilt is the most logical choice" and

"guilt is more likely the cause"...rather his behaviour and actions are just due to a kind and/or caring nature that he has, that maybe he is good at hiding?

 

You have already acknowledged that guilt is NOT the 'likely cause' for people who are just genuinely kind. So...why is it not genuine kindness but, instead, guilt, that is driving this particular guy?

(See what I mean? -- not sure if I'm being clear about why I'm confused in all the different things that I'm interpreting you are saying. Could be that my interpretation is just totally way off.)

 

I'm also reading that you're saying -- and, I am paraphrasing here -- "He feels guilty...which is why he cares about my well-being...which is why he offered and over-delivered."

But, quite honestly, I'm still not seeing any linear logic in that line of thinking.

 

Because I am torn with feelings of low self worth. I assume guilt because it doesn’t mean he genuinely cares about me.

 

Initially, I felt he offered and did so much out of love. Because when you care for someone you’re more then willing to help and give. His enthusiasm to support me was unexpected and whole hearted. It felt like love.

 

Then I remembered that he couldn’t possibly love me... because I’m the OW.

[Ronni_W]

Because I am torn with feelings of low self worth. I assume guilt because it doesn’t mean he genuinely cares about me.

 

Initially, I felt he offered and did so much out of love. Because when you care for someone you’re more then willing to help and give. His enthusiasm to support me was unexpected and whole hearted. It felt like love.

 

Then I remembered that he couldn’t possibly love me... because I’m the OW.

Ah! So there we go. Hugs, Lotus_Luna.

 

Personally, I do not believe that an MM cannot love his OW (or, of course, vice versa, when the genders are reversed). But I do think that, maybe even necessarily, they will be, or will at least feel, constrained in how they can express their love for the 'second woman' in their life (or 'second man').

 

(I recognize that this is going to piss-off the people who have been hurt, beyond healing, by their legal spouses having affairs with other people; and it's not that I do not have compassion for those people and those feelings.)

 

Lotus_Luna, you probably already knew that you were not making a very self-affirming or self-constructive choice, when you decided to take on the role of an OW.

But, that choice does not mean that you are not worthy of being loved. In truth, by the fact that you are a living Being, you are worthy of love; of giving and receiving love.

 

Is it going to suck, if he actually did love and care about you, and that's the only reason that he did whatever he did that was loving and caring and kind?

Is it going to suck, if you actually do deserve all of that, and if he knew that you do?

 

Sending you much love and kindness.

[Lotus_Luna]

Ah! So there we go. Hugs, Lotus_Luna.

 

Personally, I do not believe that an MM cannot love his OW (or, of course, vice versa, when the genders are reversed). But I do think that, maybe even necessarily, they will be, or will at least feel, constrained in how they can express their love for the 'second woman' in their life (or 'second man').

 

<SNIP>

 

I love him dearly even though I’m married. He’s been a good friend and support over the years.

 

I really thought he could love me until I got online and started reading about how men use women and such. Such strong labels and narratives applied to ALL affairs. Blanket statements about what they are. I’ve never felt used by him, mostly encouraged and supported. We’ve had many meaningful, deep and emotional discussions about us, me and him. But the dynamic isn’t perfect as he attempted to walk the ‘limits of his personal boundaries’ stating he’s never been like this with anyone other then me and wasn’t sure how to process it. But wanted me to know his decision to end the affair wasn’t a rejection of me, or a sign of my lack of worth. He just couldn’t excuse his choice and my life problems needed to be addressed. AKA my husband was spinning out of control and I didn’t want him pulled into it.

 

Affairs are self destructive, but my life was already hell. He pulled me out of it. The aftermath is the reality of our own lives.

Edited November 18, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Ronni_W]

...until I got online and started reading about how men use women and such. Such strong labels and narratives applied to ALL affairs. Blanket statements about what they are.

Okay, Lotus_Luna...I'm asking for your forgiveness ahead of time...but...are we losing it over there??? . You're going to ignore your own feelings and experiences

just to follow other people's 'blanket statements', hypotheses, and labels that they want to apply to your life??? Help me here, please...why would you allow people who do not know you

or your circumstances, to define for you, and dictate to you, what your own actual circumstances are all about?

 

And...please do realize that I'm not at all negatively judging...only hoping to help you see that you can properly and safely ignore everything that you read and hear, that does not feel legitimate

and authentic for your exact own situation and perception of your own experiences.

 

Many, many hugs.

[DKT3]

That is making a leap for which you have no evidence, DKT3. I do not speak for Lotus-Luna, but, in my case, extra-maritals were indeed a factor in the whole big mess.

My contention is that even an extra-marital ought not to have that much control that it changes one's basic kind and caring nature, and positive outlook on life.

I am NOT saying that that is easy to achieve, but I am telling you that it is possible. ("What one can do, anyone can do.")

 

It is a free-will decision and choice to stay in blame, resentment and contempt...or to try to rise above it. That is my contention, though, just to be clear,

I am not asking anyone else on this planet to affirm or agree with it.

 

I can see someone that you two are describing making a poor decision, however, maintaining that decision is a different story. The people you describe would handle a poor situation before getting involved with another. That is what healthy, well adjusted people with self esteem and high self worth do. I know OP wants to think of mm in high regard, how else would she explain the clearly unhealthy attachment she has as a married woman for a married man. Then there is the thing about having to admit that you (the other unfaithful person) are the same.

 

It's easy to justify poor behavior if you too are involved or haven't been involved in like behavior.

 

Oh, if one was to ever encounter a therapist who said an affair is a healthy thing that healthy people do, I would ran fast, that is a quack therapist.

[DKT3]

Personally, I do not believe that an MM cannot love his OW (or, of course, vice versa, when the genders are reversed). But I do think that, maybe even necessarily, they will be, or will at least feel, constrained in how they can express their love for the 'second woman' in their life (or 'second man'). {snip}

 

I dont disagree, however, there is alot of mental mind tricks at play in affairs much of which creates a need or forces one to believe it is love. Having an affair goes against what many believe themselves possible of. So in order to justify or explain how they got there it has to be this amazing connection or once in a lifetime kind of love. Or a horrible spouse where the have endured unfair treatment and tried so hard for so long. Sometimes it's a combination of both.

Edited November 18, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[carhill]

IME, they either care about the person in particular or care about people in general, meaning they have a generous soul.

 

As example, a couple years after we divorced I moved a mirror for my ex from her house to her shop and picked up my old childhood bed which was in there but no longer needed. She asked me first before giving it away. I didn't care about her but appreciated that offer and didn't mind moving the mirror. I'm more of a helper in general as that's my nature.

[Lotus_Luna]

I dont disagree, however, there is alot of mental mind tricks at play in affairs much of which creates a need or forces one to believe it is love. Having an affair goes against what many believe themselves possible of. So in order to justify or explain how they got there it has to be this amazing connection or once in a lifetime kind of love. Or a horrible spouse where the have endured unfair treatment and tried so hard for so long. Sometimes it's a combination of both.

 

I think about this constantly. Limerence is a powerful drug...

[Lotus_Luna]

Okay, Lotus_Luna...I'm asking for your forgiveness ahead of time...but...are we losing it over there??? . You're going to ignore your own feelings and experiences

just to follow other people's 'blanket statements', hypotheses, and labels that they want to apply to your life??? Help me here, please...why would you allow people who do not know you

or your circumstances, to define for you, and dictate to you, what your own actual circumstances are all about?

 

And...please do realize that I'm not at all negatively judging...only hoping to help you see that you can properly and safely ignore everything that you read and hear, that does not feel legitimate

and authentic for your exact own situation and perception of your own experiences.

 

Many, many hugs.

 

I didn’t want to allow my feelings to over ride my sensibilities.

 

I also didn’t want to set myself up for disappointment.

[basil67]

Your comments keep going back to him possibly assuaging his guilt....now I can understand why he’d feel guilty in respect to his wife, but why do you think he might be feeling guilt over something he may have done to you? Im not seeing where he’s done anything to you which he may feel guilt over.

[Lotus_Luna]

Your comments keep going back to him possibly assuaging his guilt....now I can understand why he’d feel guilty in respect to his wife, but why do you think he might be feeling guilt over something he may have done to you? Im not seeing where he’s done anything to you which he may feel guilt over.

 

He told me I could talk to him about my struggles and he was there. But when I needed his support the most, he exited my life.

It wasn’t wrong, it made sense logically.

But he went back on his promise and I felt abandoned.

 

When things started I made it VERY clear I didn’t want him to have guilt and regret in his life. Being with me would only lead to that eventually. I wanted to stay friends where it was ‘safe’....

 

He’s told me at no point has he regretted me. Whatever is happening in that marriage they’re both okay with the emotional and sexual disconnect. It was agreed that they would simply co parent and that’s what they’ve been doing.

[Malin889]

Not him... he comes with stipulations... if he does something nice like, bring me flowers he posts them on Insta but in real life he walked in the house and tossed them on the counter. It was a show... or if he does something to help me with the kids then I owe him. Very rarely is it genuinely from a selfless place, he just doesn’t work that way because he feels that i don’t give enough to earn his affection.

 

So who are you talking about then?!

[DKT3]

Not him... he comes with stipulations... if he does something nice like, bring me flowers he posts them on Insta but in real life he walked in the house and tossed them on the counter. It was a show... or if he does something to help me with the kids then I owe him. Very rarely is it genuinely from a selfless place, he just doesn’t work that way because he feels that i don’t give enough to earn his affection.

 

In my story I detailed this exact line of thinking from my wife...I only did things because I thought I should and not because I cared about her.

 

You say your husband doesn't do anything, then it's only for show or he expects something In return.

 

Alot of times this is part of the mental gymnastics.

[basil67]

He told me I could talk to him about my struggles and he was there. But when I needed his support the most, he exited my life.

It wasn’t wrong, it made sense logically.

But he went back on his promise and I felt abandoned.

 

When things started I made it VERY clear I didn’t want him to have guilt and regret in his life. Being with me would only lead to that eventually. I wanted to stay friends where it was ‘safe’....

 

He’s told me at no point has he regretted me. Whatever is happening in that marriage they’re both okay with the emotional and sexual disconnect. It was agreed that they would simply co parent and that’s what they’ve been doing.

 

There's nothing here he should feel guilty about. The thing you had ran it's course and he moved on.

 

Perhaps he was just being thoughtful.