Is the path out of inceldom worth it even if the end result is the same?

[EthanBlack]

I came upon an insightful article. I don't by any means read AskMen.com but I was reading about the incel community and came across it.

 

https://ca.askmen.com/dating/dating_advice/the-incel-breakdown-how-to-deal-with-constant-rejection.html

 

I found this passage particularly interesting:

 

Do all these steps, and you’ll go from being a solitary guy who mumbles awkwardly to someone who rustles your jimmy, to a more confident guy who feels a little more at home in the world, even if he doesn’t get dates all the time. At this point, I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking both, A, that sounds really hard, and, B, what if I do all that stuff and still get rejected? And you’re right. It is hard — this a journey that could take a few years before it has real effects. You could do all that stuff and still get rejected, at least for a while, maybe for a long time, until you really master social skills.

 

But that actually doesn’t matter. These steps will make you happier and healthier no matter what, and that process will start quite quickly. Hell, it’s possible that when you’re interested in looking good, and you have group activities, and friends to hang out with, you’ll be less fixated on getting laid.

 

This resonates a lot with me. I've taken some serious, gutsy steps towards self-improvement and by no means is it a one-shot deal. It's not some magical solution. It's just taking a path in a better direction. And there are no guarantees.

 

What I want to discuss is, what if the end result is the same? By end result, I mean still being single and woman-less. Despite all the efforts you have made to improve yourself for the right reasons and creating a better life for yourself, what if girls still reject you or if you do manage to date but they all end up nowhere?

 

A lot of female acquaintances I know seem to think so and agrees with the article above. But a lot of my married guy friends, I think if they were in my shoes, they'd probably commit suicide. Cause NONE of them have the willpower and guts to have done the things I've attempted to do. They have expressed admiration/respect for me. But if they were in my shoes and perpetually single and they were faced with two stark choices: 1. Continue repeating the same patterns and being an incel or 2. Embark on a path of self-improvement that requires tons of effort, hard work, and sweat and tears.

 

I think they'd ****ing cry and kill themselves. It's a rock and a hard place.

 

A lot of guys get off easier for dating. Because they happen to have the right height, look, race, and maybe they had sisters growing up and learnt how to talk to talk to women early on or whatever or maybe they just had strings of good luck.

 

Other guys, incels like myself, have a much harder path. Maybe we don't have the right look or maybe we didn't have good relations with women in our lives in our early years or maybe things happened that shook our confidence early on or maybe just a string of bad luck and circumstances. I don't know.

 

But what if you choose path #2 and still end up alone? What's the point? Might as well just stay at home, eat junk food, get fat and play video games then.

[Garcon1986]

This depends on how much you want a heterosexual relationship (and not how much society is pressuring you to have this relationship). If you are happy being single, by all means, have at it, Oprah has done just fine like that.

 

 

I take the athlete's approach to this - you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and winners are those who are willing to get up after failing, just a little more than those who lose.

[NuevoYorko]

I challenge the entire concept of "incel."

[d0nnivain]

Your incel state will end when you stop being angry at the world. Other people's issues are not so easy to fix.

[carhill]

2. Embark on a path of self-improvement that requires tons of effort, hard work, and sweat and tears.

 

Sounds pretty normal and healthy. One can define self-improvement for themselves.

 

But what if you choose path #2 and still end up alone? What's the point? Might as well just stay at home, eat junk food, get fat and play video games then.

 

The improvement, how it feels and how one perceives and loves themselves is the benefit, the reward. Associations with other humans can be a perk, sure.

 

Rise above the ancient drives and recognize them for what they are. If wanting to participate, do that. Else, each moment agonizing what we cannot control is a moment we never get back.

 

Is the path worth it? IMO, yes it is.

[EthanBlack]

I take the athlete's approach to this - you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and winners are those who are willing to get up after failing, just a little more than those who lose.

 

I'm starting to realize the validity of this, not just in matters of dating but in various areas of life in general. It's not about the failures here and there. It's more about number of times you fail and get back up and try again over a LONG period of time.

 

It takes a long time in general to get good at anything.

 

I challenge the entire concept of "incel."

 

That's how society has decided to brand a specific kind of guy who could otherwise be quite successful, well-adjusted and even well-liked by most people but for whatever reason, is unsuccessful with women.

 

Sounds pretty normal and healthy. One can define self-improvement for themselves.

 

The improvement, how it feels and how one perceives and loves themselves is the benefit, the reward. Associations with other humans can be a perk, sure.

 

Rise above the ancient drives and recognize them for what they are. If wanting to participate, do that. Else, each moment agonizing what we cannot control is a moment we never get back.

 

Is the path worth it? IMO, yes it is.

 

Yes. It really comes down to a simple choice really:

 

1. Do I want to suck with girls AND also be a boring loser?

 

Or

 

2. Do I want to suck with girls but lead an interesting life and being an accomplished person?

[losangelena]

I disagree that society decided on that name. I’m pretty sure the community came up with it on their own.

[snowboy91]

But what if you choose path #2 and still end up alone? What's the point? Might as well just stay at home, eat junk food, get fat and play video games then.

 

I'll answer this a similar way Carhill did, but approach it from a different angle.

 

Ask yourself this: Why are you so fixated and frustrated about relationships or a lack thereof? I'd assume for you, like many others, it's because you see a relationship as a path to happiness and fulfilment. Perhaps you see it as the only possible way to be happy, or the only way to live a "good" life.

 

A journey of self improvement, as you put it, does need a lot of effort, but why bother in the first place? Because it's another way to be fulfilled in life, to know that you're being the best version of yourself you can be. You'll end up doing more of what you enjoy on a deeper level and be a lot happier... and that in and of itself is worth doing for your own sense of wellbeing.

 

Ultimately, if being happy is your ultimate goal in life, shouldn't you look for whatever will help you with that? Romantic relationships are not the only thing that fulfils us - and if you allow it to be, you're only setting yourself up for trouble anyway.

[elaine567]

Ethan Black has told us he is ~35, so all these schemes to "improve himself", I guess are getting pretty boring. He's been there, done that, got the T-shirt...

He now I guess just wants an end to the single life and a nice woman in his bed at night.

 

 

All very well for some whose lives have been full of "romantic" experiences to say you just need to find happiness within yourself, but when big chunks of those real life experiences are absent, then it is difficult I guess to be settled and content with oneself.

[ZA Dater]

Ethan Black has told us he is ~35, so all these schemes to "improve himself", I guess are getting pretty boring. He's been there, done that, got the T-shirt...

He now I guess just wants an end to the single life and a nice woman in his bed at night.

 

 

All very well for some whose lives have been full of "romantic" experiences to say you just need to find happiness within yourself, but when big chunks of those real life experiences are absent, then it is difficult I guess to be settled and content with oneself.

 

 

 

I am not really one to talk but I wonder if the OP would be better off finding something to focus on rather than making dating the centre of his life, which is the impression I am getting.

 

 

Look I know full well what its like to be alone, have nobody but there is only so much one can take of that before you realise that there is simply more to life than that. I had a great weekend with pretty much everything I want, yes I didn't have anyone in my bed but it was still great.

 

 

Yes I agree if you haven't had the experiences you chase them, its normal but what kind of experiences is OP chasing? I have not been able to figure that out. Sure, one isn't going to be settled at all, I chase the experiences I want and just sometimes I get pretty close to getting what I want.

 

 

Does the OP have any sort of plan how to change things?

[EthanBlack]

I'll answer this a similar way Carhill did, but approach it from a different angle.

 

Ask yourself this: Why are you so fixated and frustrated about relationships or a lack thereof? I'd assume for you, like many others, it's because you see a relationship as a path to happiness and fulfilment. Perhaps you see it as the only possible way to be happy, or the only way to live a "good" life.

 

Even if I don't feel that way, society and other people around you do. When you always show up alone to things without a significant other, people are gonna start wondering why you're always alone? Are you a loser? Is there something wrong with you?

 

All very well for some whose lives have been full of "romantic" experiences to say you just need to find happiness within yourself, but when big chunks of those real life experiences are absent, then it is difficult I guess to be settled and content with oneself.

 

It's also a matter of jealousy/sense of justice too. I did everything right in life. But other men are getting girls just because they may have had a better upbringing which involved good relations with their sisters, or maybe they had good experiences with girls during high school and that perpetuated itself or maybe because they're just naturally confident and have really bright personalities or whatever the reason.

 

I am a good guy with good qualities but who just so happens that he is not as confident around women. It's not like as if I've committed some crime. It's not like I'm a creeper/stalker or pedophile.

 

But I'm sick and tired of being treated like I'm a pariah just because I'm a sensitive guy who didn't have any sisters growing up, who had a very emotional domineering mother, who had a few bad experiences during high school and college and who may be an introvert and isn't the life of a party.

 

 

Yes I agree if you haven't had the experiences you chase them, its normal but what kind of experiences is OP chasing? I have not been able to figure that out. Sure, one isn't going to be settled at all, I chase the experiences I want and just sometimes I get pretty close to getting what I want.

 

I want to stop showing up to things alone and stop being a social pariah for being perpetually single.

[ZA Dater]

I want to stop showing up to things alone and stop being a social pariah for being perpetually single.

 

 

Take a friend. Find a good female friend and take her. I do this and it works really well, like you I hated and hate going on my own. Do I care that people mutter about me being single? No really, especially not when I look at the calibre of partner some of them have.

[EthanBlack]

Take a friend. Find a good female friend and take her. I do this and it works really well, like you I hated and hate going on my own. Do I care that people mutter about me being single? No really, especially not when I look at the calibre of partner some of them have.

 

Tried that. Doesn't work. Eventually people realize the two of you aren't even together. Worse off, she ends up dating somone else and you can't take her out no more. Also, when you bring a female friend, people are wondering, are you too pussy to actually make her your girlfriend?

[snowboy91]

Even if I don't feel that way, society and other people around you do. When you always show up alone to things without a significant other, people are gonna start wondering why you're always alone? Are you a loser? Is there something wrong with you?

 

Why does it matter if people think that? It sounds like you still place too much importance on what others think of you (or what you think others think of you). Besides, everyone judges everyone on anything they like, and if you constantly worry about what "society" thinks, you'll always find something to judge yourself negatively for. Someone will always have something bad to say about anyone anyone in the world, and you can't possibly please everyone.

 

I'll ask you to consider this: What do you consider to be most important to you? A common theme around your threads seems to be this idea that you're successful at work and outside of work, but you're frustrated that people with less "success" by your measure are having more luck with finding a romantic partner. Are you trying to lead an interesting and full life just to find a partner, or do you genuinely enjoy everything you do? If it's the latter, then you know you've got things in your life that fulfil you.

 

But if what's important to you is sharing the things you enjoy with someone and/or just connecting with people, then focus on that. Make time for friends. Talk to people without the intention of pursuing a relationship and make new friends. The "right" people for you will not judge you for being single.

[Mumbles]

I really like Snowboy91's post. Its all about the journey. Theres only one end point in life ... and we'll all face that some day. Its the journey that counts.

 

People are constantly judging us. Its just the nature of what people do. Even those of us being judged are also judging those around us. Theres this constant hum of social judgement and jostling going on. I mostly just ignore it - though if you're sensitive (as I once was) this can be more easily said than done.

 

A diversion for a moment: Why is the online 'incel' community called 'incel' ... it doesn't seem incel to me at all ... more like 'volcel' .. as in voluntary celibacy. The (mostly) guys involved have made a conscious thought out decision to not be involved with the other sex.

 

I've read some of the stuff online about this community and I know its a broad church, plenty of different views and only loosely held together by the common term 'incel', but the commonality seems to me to be a lack of involvement, both physically and mentally with the opposite sex.

 

I do wonder a bit if most of the incel guys, in particular, would be better off adjusting their mental stance to more align with MGTOW. Don't cut yourself off from women as a sort of religious dogma, but simply live your life on your own terms.

 

Back to the OP. I strongly believe that we're best off in life as a general rule, pursuing those things that bring us happiness and allow us to fully immerse in and enjoy the life we have. Self improvement as a goal in and off itself is pretty meaningless in my view ... its a vehicle to get from where you are to where you want to be in a life fulfillment sense.

[ZA Dater]

Tried that. Doesn't work. Eventually people realize the two of you aren't even together. Worse off, she ends up dating somone else and you can't take her out no more. Also, when you bring a female friend, people are wondering, are you too pussy to actually make her your girlfriend?

 

 

Why do you care so much about what people think?