Ugh, NC never gets any easier

March 5, 2019

Yes, I definitely agree. It was good for us to talk and clear the air. Maybe if I didn't have to see him frequently that closure wouldn't have been so necessary but it just was. So, for that, I am fortunate.

You are absolutely right. I would not care about initiating contact if I felt safe and secure and in a "normal" relationship I would not feel that way. That is 100% accurate. In other relationships I've had, I have not worried about who texted first etc. once it was determined things were exclusive. I guess the problem with this relationship is that I know and have always known that this was not headed into us being in a committed relationship. We both decided that this wouldn't be that. For him it's because he literally works 2 full time jobs - one mentally exhausting and the other physically taxing - so he doesn't sleep much and the nights he isn't working his other full time job he has his kids. For me, it was due to the fact that I didn't think he and I would fit long term - I think I've talked about some of that in earlier posts. So I know that I wanted a text daily and we engaged in relationship types of things but I wasn't waiting around for him to decide to commit to me. Maybe I just needed for his words and actions to match and when they didn't it made me uneasy - not because I wanted a committed relationship but because words and actions not matching make me start to distrust someone and I have to trust. I'm definitely not making excuses for him but he just doesn't have time or energy to build a relationship with anyone. That being said, even if he had that time and energy I do not think we would work long term. He has a lot of emotional baggage that I've talked about in earlier posts (just the communication factor alone would drive me up and down the wall) and I just don't want to be his therapist. I realize that any relationship I get into at my age will have baggage but I still don't want to be anyone's therapist. I want to be with someone that is actively working out their stuff - not just letting it sit there. He doesn't ask me to be his therapist and has a really hard time opening up about things in general. He knows he needs to see someone and try to work through some of his issues so maybe he will one day. Probably part of the reason I'm attracted to him is my need to try and help him. It's a double-edged sword - I say I don't want to fix someone's emotional baggage but then I stick around for this with him. Sigh. And yes, you hit the nail on the head, he is selfish. He knows he isn't able to give me what I want/need but he keeps doing this because he wants/needs me in his life. The loving thing to do would be to let me go and stop with the push/pull. We both know that won't happen though...

I think somewhere along the way I realized that I clearly can't build a life with someone else if I'm doing this with him. Originally, I continued down this path because I do have strong feelings for him and we really are great friends. Maybe I thought I could handle just being friends with him and engaging in this emotional relationship with a little bit of physical stuff. Somewhere along the way I realized that my heart can't be in two places at one time if I start seeing someone. Well, it can but it won't be 100% in either place and that's the kind of relationship I want.

So even though I know we should not be in a relationship and that was never where this was going with him, it is still very hard to walk away. He is my friend. I love and care about what happens to him. My personality just doesn't allow myself to be on the fence with him. I can be on the fence with everyone else in that office except him. There is a pull toward him that I can't explain - it has to do with our energy I suppose, coupled with the way he looks at me and a lot of our intimate conversations about life, etc. So for all of those reasons I can't just be indifferent with him. I have to be very intentional and walk away. I don't have to do it dramatically but I have to do it intentionally.

I really don't want this to be a big dramatic thing where we have a big conversation and go over and over this again for me to walk away. I just want to be less connected with him and get to a place where both of us can co-exist at work and be ok. I am definitely not going to stay in a gray area with him because I am done with that. I'm done with the back and forth and have communicated that. I feel relieved after our conversation because I had some things to say and needed to hear some things from him. Now that we've had that I feel like I'm good to start moving on. Now the hard part.... actually moving on.

Yesterday was tough but I was so busy that I didn't really reflect on a few things until later in the day. Walking away is hard. This morning I woke up feeling a little relieved and a little sad. Relieved because I've at least made the decision. Sad because now I have to follow through.

About your ex... it's easy to see why you stayed and tried to work things out with him for so long. He was a certain way when you started dating and then that changed. It's sooooooo hard to walk away from that because, in our minds, we keep thinking that if we can just get them to understand what we need then it will go back to how it was in the beginning. So the quest to get things how they were then becomes the goal, to some extent. It's so freaking hard to walk away when you've known how good it was with someone. For me, it wasn't really like that. I mean, maybe he was a little less like this when he was pursuing me but I don't have months and months of great communication (or maybe years in your case) and then a drop off. I can't even imagine. So yes, please give yourself a break in the time it takes to get over this. That is super difficult.

How has your week been?

Edited March 5, 2019 by TooMuch2Ask

March 5, 2019

@TooMuch2Ask, so good to see your post. I was wondering all day how things had gone at work. I'm relieved to see it wasn't so bad (and that were at least busy to distract you).

This is TOUGH. I've never been able to keep a connection with anyone that I've loved - meaning I don't really keep in touch with them. I might think of them fondly, but I don't talk to them or see them. Someone on another post somewhere said that they thought exes should be dead to them. When someone else said that was really mean, the person clarified that it would be as if someone they cared about died: they still remembered all the wonderful things about that person and the times they shared, but they didn't communicate. Obviously, in your case, you can't totally do that because you guys work together.

I wish I had some amazing advice for you on what to do or how to do it. I hope that it will get a little bit easier as you guys redefine your relationship. When you guys had that conversation, how was it left? It seems like he still wants to keep the door open or to continue the gray area you guys were in, did you respond to that? Or are you still thinking about how you want to respond to everything he said?

I think your feelings about this relationship and the communication were spot on. I know, for me, I am now aware that my gut instinct is a lot better than I gave myself credit for. I just need to stop ignoring it because I don't want it to be true. I want a great relationship, so I don't want to listen to that little voice inside that says that he's not moving things forward. I think I would have saved myself a lot of heartache if I had. I think, for me, once I take that leap for someone (usually after we have sex), I can't back away so easily.

I keep being struck by how similar our situations were. I just hope yours turns out better than mine did. At least you have had the sense to date other men. I tried, a little bit, especially after he and I first had "the talk", but my heart wasn't in it. I couldn't let go of him.

One thing that I think of that helps me sometimes is that I suspect my ex (and definitely yours too) have things to work on. For my ex, I think that he's obviously not open to committing to a real, honest, and open relationship. He probably still has a lot of scars from his divorce and his children complicate the issue. I'm not sure what your ex's issues are, although they could definitely be similar. Those types of issues take months, if not years of work to deal with. This doesn't happen in a week or two weeks. So, for you guys to be in a relationship that actually works, it would have to be a long time in the future. I think about this sometimes when I feel sad or lonely. I think that my ex has not dealt with the issues that were preventing him from committing to me and if he hasn't, then we wouldn't work no matter how long I stuck around or how I acted. Me sticking around and just putting up with his everything just made it easy for him to not work on any of that. I don't know that he's working on anything now, as he seems to be repeating a similar pattern, at least I think he is. So my only chance is to let him go, as much as it hurts, and let him deal with everything that he needs to deal with. I hope he will. I somewhat stupidly (or maybe it's delusional) want him to work on things, realize he screwed up by hurting me, and come back. But that will probably get less over time. I think it's the same with your ex. That said, I know that is the logical thing and right now, you're dealing with your heart and not your head.

Keep posting if you need to. Hugs to you - hope it's a better day today.

March 6, 2019

@nola

I'm not typically one to keep in touch with old boyfriends either. I have spoken to my high school sweetheart a few times - we are facebook friends and met up for coffee many years ago to just catch up. Neither of us had any remaining feelings for the other so it was harmless. I was with my ex husband for almost 22 years (dated for 3 1/2 in college and then married for 18). We were separated the last 1 1/2 years of the marriage just because we have to be separated for 12 months in our state and it just took a little bit longer to file the paperwork etc. So I don't have a ton of heavy relationship experiences prior to him, just my high school sweetheart and a few people I dated.

Following my marriage I was involved with one person that I still keep in touch with quite regularly. We were just better off friends and we knew it from the start. He is engaged now and we are all very good friends - mostly because neither of us was in love or had any of those heavy feelings. I started dating pretty quickly after my separation began because I had been in IC for several years due to my ex and I just co-existing and having grown apart for many, many years. So I had dealt with our situation and was really wanting to find someone to share my life with - not just be roommates. The dating process was kind of a **** show but I got a lot of great experience meeting new people (learning to date again because it was completely different) and discovering what I wanted and didn't want in a person and relationship. So when I started talking to the guy at work I knew pretty quickly that we probably weren't going to work out. I wanted more togetherness and he seemed to really want to be more on his own due to the difficulties in his marriage. I think that is probably the main reason I proceeded to build a friendship with him - I never thought I would develop such strong feelings for him given how we seemed to want different things. Clearly I was naÃ¯ve and didn't have strong enough boundaries to protect myself. Even though we have a lot of differences with what we are ready for and want... we also have a lot of similarities, not that it matters.

How we left it... I'm actually not really sure. We talked face to face and then it transitioned to text. I think I was really still trying to take it all in after our lengthy conversation. I told him that I had problems with him shutting me out for days at a time regardless of his busy schedule or feeling overwhelmed with work and life, etc. He responded with promises to do better and that it has nothing to do with his feelings for me or our situation. I'm not sure why my response wasn't that I don't need him to do better because I need to move on. That's what my response needed to be. I know that. I don't think I really knew what to say and I was caught in the moment. I still don't. I just want to walk away. I don't want to have another emotional conversation. I don't have it in me.

When he says things like "please don't ever stay away from me" "I love you always" "I want you in my life" (which is what he said during this conversation) it makes it really hard for me. Him not wanting me to stay away from him is not something he seems to want all the time though - despite saying that to me. He has moments where he definitely doesn't want me to stay away and then moments where he doesn't want me there at all (he's never said this but it's based on his actions). So it's been difficult for me because I say what I mean and mean what I say. It confuses me when other people don't operate the same way. Having to decipher what someone means isn't something I feel like doing anymore.

It's really, really hard. It really hurts to think about not being able to call or text him when I see something funny that we would both laugh at. Or not be able to vent to him about issues with work. Tons of other things that we connect on. It sucks. It's my fault for going down this road. I know all of that. It doesn't mean it sucks any less. So, right now, I am in contact with him but my heart isn't in it anymore. His idea of promising to do better and mine are totally different. He has reached out every day but it's way different, probably because I feel different and am responding differently. One minute I feel like I don't ever want to talk to him again because he's so freaking selfish and the next minute I feel like I can't imagine never talking to him again. I know it's normal but it sucks. I really don't know if I should do the slow fade or if I should have a conversation with him that ends it completely. I don't even know what that would look like for us given our work situation.

I am waiting for a position to be posted right now that would mean we don't have to collaborate as much together. We would still be in the same unit but we would not have cases together anymore. As soon as it's posted I'm going to apply for it. That will help. Besides that, I just think I need to figure out if I want to have "the conversation" with him or if I just want to field off his advances and do the slow fade. Both options seem pretty freaking crappy to me right now. Things don't feel the same for me anymore and I don't have the same vibe from him either, even though he's contacted me daily.

Thank you for your posts. They are very helpful. Both of our exes have things to work on FOR SURE!!! I was talking to one of my friends yesterday and she was saying that the problems he has weren't created in a month so they definitely aren't going to be fixed in a month. I know this... it's just hard separating that out from how emotional and vulnerable he can be at times. I hate hurting someone or failing them in some way but it's not my job to fix him. It just isn't. How are you doing this week? When you say you guys had "the talk" how long had you been involved at that point? What was that like?

Edited March 6, 2019 by TooMuch2Ask

March 6, 2019

I read this tonight on thought catalog and was deeply moved by it so I wanted to post it here.

You have to let go. You have to let go because when you hold on when you keep something alive inside of you, you are allowing for your past to take up the space in your heart, and in your mind, that is meant for your future. You have to let go because at the end of the day, if you are going to find the human being who is going to bring you the deepest kind of joy, if you are going to find the person who is going to help you experience the kind of love you have always deserved - you have to make sure that you will be ready for it. You have to make sure that you will be open to it, and you cannot make a home within your heart for the person who will someday care for you in the softest ways , if someone else's memory is still living there. You have to let go. You have to accept that sometimes beautiful things end, that sometimes people leave, that sometimes two human beings do not beat the odds, and you have to find closure in that. You have to heal. You have to move forward, you have to believe in the version of you that is laughing in bed on a Sunday morning with the person they love twenty years from now, because you deserve that future. it is waiting for you. Choose it.

March 6, 2019

That is a tough situation. I feel like the slow fade is kind of mean, to be honest. Not that you owe him anything and if that is what you need to do for your heart and sanity, then it's ok. But it seems like you might feel better if you could say your piece and make it more definitive. Because I think he's going to keep coming around and confusing the situation unless you are definitive. On the other hand, I know that is the hardest thing to make a decision to close the door and lock it. If you slow fade, it leaves it a little open ended. I guess it depends on what you think you can handle and what would be best for you.

I think he is possibly quite avoidant. Have you read anything about attachment styles and avoidance? It's one of those things that I think has some merit, but all of it doesn't totally apply for me. Avoidant people tend to push others away when they get too close. They often have push and pull situations, especially if they hook up with someone with an anxious attachment style. It seems like your ex wants to be close, but not too close. He wants to pull you in, until you get there. And as your friend so astutely noted, this is probably something that has been developing for a while. Perhaps it came about because his marriage was unhappy or maybe that's why his marriage was unhappy. I know I can be anxious in my attachment, but I haven't always been this way. Or perhaps it's just being with someone that's avoidant that brings that out. With my first love, I was very secure, but he never gave me any reason to doubt that he loved me and wanted to be with me. There was no push and pull. With my toxic ex and this most recent one, they both had that push and pull thing going on and were probably avoidant. I'm wondering if your ex is the same and that's what triggered your feelings of not getting the reassurance and communication that you needed.

It's hard for me to think forever too. I hate the thought that I will never talk with Mr. B (that's what I'm calling my ex) again. He was in my life for almost 6 years (we knew each other for a year before we started really talking and dating). I thought he cared about me and I definitely care about him. So thinking of "I will never talk to this person again" is soul crushing. I'm trying not to think about it that way. We have no idea what life holds. People can leave our lives and then come back. I just got a Facebook friend request from a guy that I had a crush on in high school 20 years ago!! I haven't talked to him since the day he graduated. I would not have thought he would remember me, as I didn't really know him. So who knows what might happen with other people from my life?

I think taking a different position at work would be helpful. Like Beachead said somewhere upthread, changing your routine is helpful. It makes you think that things are different now, but that your life is moving on.

Do you ever worry that your ex will go on to have a successful relationship with someone else? I've never considered myself a really jealous person, but since everything that has happened over the past 4 months, I know I can be. Just thinking about Mr. B and big boobs going on having some amazing relationship makes me feel so bad I want to throw up. Is that something that worries you, that he will meet someone else? I also realize this makes me sound kind of immature, but I am being honest.

We had "the talk" about 5 months into dating. He had just come to visit me and we had had a great time. When he left, I realized I was in love with him and I also realized that I wasn't sure if he felt the same way. I knew he had strong feelings for me, but I wasn't sure. So I sent him a long email basically saying I wanted to move things forward and wanted to know how he felt. He responded by text and said he wanted to talk on the phone that night about it. He called and we talked for several hours about that and other things. I can't remember all the details now, but he said that he felt the same way about me (I had told him how I felt about him in my email, but I hadn't said I love you) but that he was worried about becoming more serious. He knew it would mean bringing me into his children's lives and he wasn't sure if that would work. He said he had been thinking more and more about dating since his divorce but wasn't sure what to do. I don't remember all of the details, but I do remember that he was very honest with me. That's one of the things that is most odd to me about how things ended. When we had the talk, he was honest, even though I think he sensed that that could be the end of our relationship. At one point when we were talking, he said (in a quiet and kind of timid voice) "you probably don't want to talk to me anymore". I think about that a lot, because I think I probably should have taken some space after that. I didn't want to lose him and I was in love with him. I know a lot of people will say "well, he just wasn't that into you if he didn't want to go forward into a relationship", but I really do think he was worried about how a relationship would affect his children. I also wonder if his ex-wife factored into his thoughts. I think their relationship is ok, but I know there was a mediator involved at several points and I wonder if he thought that bringing a new woman around would just blow that up. I also wonder if this is why he's hiding big boobs.

It makes me sad to think about that now. He was so honest with me in that conversation. It makes it that much more painful that he wasn't honest with me in the end. I was thinking of this when I was running earlier. Is it possible he didn't know how I crazy I was about him? Did he somehow think I was fine with our "arrangement"? Surely he realized how upset I was after our last conversation? It still bothers me, almost 3 months later, that he sent me a text that was so bland and normal after I told him he basically broke my heart. He can't be that dumb, right? I mean, on most phones you can see your last texts to someone when you go to send a new one. That stupid text haunts me sometimes. I'm somewhat jealous of you that you were able to have a conversation to get some kind of closure with your guy. I wish I had had that.

March 6, 2019

You're right. The slow fade is mean. In the end it probably wouldn't work anyway. I'm not sure I could do it, not effectively anyway. I would probably do well for a few days, maybe even weeks, but like you said - he would do or say something and I'd be right back to square one. I don't want to live my life that way. The only choice I really have is to have the definitive conversation, unless he disappears again before that. If that happens then that would be that. I wouldn't need closure at that point. Part of me is probably hoping that he does something to hurt me or make me angry so it's an easier discussion for me to have (although I'm still hurt and angry from past stuff). Unfortunately, I think I'm going to have to ante up and just do it myself.

I know about avoidant attachment styles in children and I don't know enough detailed information about his childhood to know if that's the case with him or not. I know a good bit about his family and basic childhood things but not enough to know if he would fall into that category. With that being said, he definitely fits into the avoidant attachment style now - most of the characteristics of an adult with an avoidant/dismissive attachment style fits for him. My anxiety dealing with him is definitely situational. I am typically able to have secure relationships without anxiety unless I don't feel safe. So I think you and I are a lot alike in that respect. I do think it's hard for me to end this with him because I don't like hurting people or not being there for them once I've formed an attachment. I realize I have to take care of myself but I'm definitely a nurturer by nature so it's hard for me. The push/pull with him is definitely why I've needed the reassurance with communication. I guess communication was how I saw how he felt through action as opposed to only words.

6 years is a really, really long time. I know you're ready to be over it already but that's so long to be over it in just a few months. We definitely don't know what the future holds so it's probably better for me to just think of it as we can't be close right now given both of our circumstances. I absolutely worry about him being in a relationship with someone else. I don't want to even think about it or know about it. I guess if we weren't talking I wouldn't know or find out. He doesn't have social media. I guess if he started becoming close with another female at work I would eventually notice. That would just be terrible. I have never been involved with anyone in the workplace before and I wouldn't after this either (hell no). The thought of him being in a relationship with someone else makes me sad and jealous. I say all of that knowing that I need to move on so I can find someone to spend my life with. I do want him to be happy though and we aren't right for each other so, ultimately, I don't want him to spend his life alone. It still makes me sad and jealous .

By the way, it doesn't make you sound immature to be jealous. I think that's normal. Also, I don't think they are having a wonderful relationship or riding off into the sunset together. They just aren't. I don't believe, for one second, that he got his **** together and is the perfect boyfriend. I just don't. I know this isn't easy to think about but I think you dodged a bullet. I think the universe gave you a break when something inside of you told you to check that facebook account.

I think he absolutely knows/knew how you felt about him. He definitely isn't stupid. He didn't think you were ok with the arrangement because he knew how you felt. He just cared about him more. I don't think relationships are as cut and dry as a lot of people say they are - especially when you're dating people that are divorced and have children. Things are not just black and white. He could have been totally into you and also scared to death of introducing his kids to someone new. The situation with his ex wasn't that great if he was going through mediation. That means, on some level, they couldn't work out the agreement on their own. That creates stress and anxiety. I know it is very hurtful that he wasn't upfront and honest with you about BB (big boobs). It just reinforces your belief about him being avoidant. The innocuous text he sent a month later is baffling to me too. I really don't understand it. He was clearly trying to reach out and see if you were still angry or hurt. When you didn't answer he probably felt like he needed to let you move on. I don't think he is living his life without thinking of you. I think he is living his life, thinks of you, but doesn't know what to say given you ignored his text. I know you view that as him not caring, and to some extent, he mostly just cares about himself (in my opinion). I know it's hard because you've seen moments where he was brutally honest and really cared and then moments where he didn't seem to care at all. That is hurtful. I'm not sure anything he could say now would give you the closure that you would need anyway.

I know me getting some closure seems appealing but it really wasn't. Sure, I got a few answers, but what did it really do for me? It opened wounds that were beginning to heal. I was sad but I was coping and trying to move on. Now he's just trying to stay in my life and I'm desperately trying to figure out how to get him out of it without hurting him and myself. So whenever you're envious of my closure just remind yourself that now I have to figure out what to do with the answers that he gave me because none of what he said is going to turn into us doing anything but hurting each other more in the end if we keep doing this. When I think about it, I didn't even get closure. Closure means it's closed. He just wanted to open things right back up where we left off without any repercussions. So, yeah, I got answers to why he wasn't talking to me and why he pulled away but it didn't do anything for me except start the cycle again. Wash, rinse, repeat

Oh and the guy from 20 years ago... that's kind of awesome! Is he still cute?!?!

March 7, 2019

Haha..you know what? I haven't even looked to see what he looks like these days. Last I knew, he was married to a woman I hated in high school. They have a few kids who are probably almost out of the house by now. I could not care less, but it just gave me a little "whoa" when I saw his friend request. Facebook lately gives me so much anxiety.

I see your point about the "closure" on your part. I hope that you get that job transfer so that you don't have to work so directly with him. I fear that what happened to me will happen to you. That you will be trying to make some distance and he will be trying to keep hanging around until he starts seeing someone new. But maybe he won't. I wish I had some really good advice for you. I know how hard it is to be around someone you still love. I think I told you about my toxic ex. He would be so hard to be around because sometimes he would flat out avoid me and other times he would be very flirtatious. Other times he would flirt with other women in front of me and I was so miserable. It sounds like your ex is much better than that guy though - he seems like he would be much more respectful towards you.

I understand about not wanting to hurt someone else. I have a really hard time with boundaries in general, but definitely in these types of situations. I worry so much about what the other person is going to think about me that I put their needs above mine. Or I should say, their perceived needs, but it's not like they tell me this, I just think that is what they want or need. And I'm turning myself inside out trying to make sure they aren't upset or angry. I have just started dealing with boundaries in therapy and working on standing up for myself better. It's still really uncomfortable for me.

My friend texted me tonight to let me know that Mr. B will be on the trip with us this year. I had not seen his name on any of them emails so in my mind I had kind of decided that he wasn't going to be there. I have a good bit of time to work on this and to prepare myself, so I'm not too anxious. My therapist and I have been talking a little bit about this, but now I can plan. I think I feel most anxious about the fact that he knows that he hurt my feelings - it's like he has this power. It's like he now knows that I was so crazy about him and devastated by him and he's dating someone new and I'm not. I think I will feel kind of pathetic, but this is something I want to work on with my therapist. At least this year I won't be hoping that he and I will spend some time together. I'm just going to try to look my best so that I feel confident and try to be friendly with everyone. I'm very close with pretty much everyone else that goes on the trip, so I can always spend time with them. He typically works really long hours when we're there so I don't even think I would see him a whole lot.

How was today? How's it going at work?

March 7, 2019

I was just curious if you still found him attractive after all this time. I would have had to at least go to the page to check it out. I do see why facebook would create anxiety at the moment though .

Yes, I am really looking forward to the job transfer. Hopefully it will post soon so I can apply. It will keep me super busy because I'll be learning a different role and I'll have to get acclimated. I'm not sure if I would even know if he got involved with someone or not. I don't ever run into him outside of work - our area is just too big - and he never talks about personal stuff at work. He doesn't have social media so I just wouldn't know. He wouldn't know about my social life either if he didn't ask. I never ask about his - mostly because I've spent the last couple of months trying to get out so I don't want to know. Either way, you're right. I definitely don't want it to get to that point regardless. My ex can be very hot and cold too depending on how emotionally and physically exhausted he is from the two jobs. I mean, I get it, I really do. I'm exhausted too with all the crap I have to do so that's not really an excuse to be distant in my opinion. I've read a lot over the last day about the avoidant attachment style that you mentioned. I was too close to the situation to see it for myself. It really is exactly how he is. I definitely don't want any parts of it because I think it would break me. Reading through a lot of that stuff makes it a little easier for me to detach. No amount of understanding or accommodation is going to make him respond differently when he gets too close so I just can't.

It's so odd for me because I have really good boundaries with most people. Clearly I don't with him but I do with most people (I had boundaries with him for a year and a half - he just wore me down over time). I worked really hard in therapy on having boundaries because I didn't have them before. I guess I had them to some extent but they weren't doing me any favors. I would do the same thing - feel bad if I would put a boundary in place and worry about the other person. All of what you're saying was the same with me until I really worked on them with my therapist. It's still uncomfortable for me and it will be when I do it with him now. I read something yesterday that just said sometimes we allow our former self to take over for a bit because we forget that we aren't that person anymore until one day we kick her out and say "you've gotta go!". That is what happened with me. So, yeah, I'm kicking that girl out and bringing the one with better boundaries and more self-respect back. ASAP. She came back yesterday lol. Hopefully I will keep her around for the long term because I'm done with the back and forth bullsh*t with him. I'm just done. I said my piece, he said his. There is really nothing left to say. He knows what he's done and what he hasn't done. He's not stupid. Let me know how it goes with your therapist. I've been wanting to get back into therapy for this very reason - to get a kick in the @ss regarding my boundaries. The therapist I saw for 3 years (she was so awesome) isn't in my network anymore, which is why I stopped seeing her. I have been putting off getting a new one because I just really dread having to go through my whole story all over again with someone new. It's hard to find a good therapist. Maybe that will be on my list next week - to find a new one in network.

Oh wow - so he IS going on the trip! Did you feel any anxiety at all when she told you that? How did you feel right when you heard? You definitely have plenty of time to come up with a plan. So maybe the reason he hasn't contacted you is because he knows he will see you at some point and the air will eventually be cleared. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

So I would really like for you to think of it this way... instead of him thinking you're crazy about him and devastated he thinks that you are strong and someone who isn't going to take his crap. You weren't so crazy about him that you stuck around for his bullsh*t were you? Nope. You didn't text him for days and weeks demanding an explanation. You confronted him, told him you were hurt, told him how you felt, then you walked away. In his mind, you never looked back. You didn't respond to his text. You didn't call. You didn't pass go, or collect $200 lol. You kept it moving. He doesn't know you've struggled. If I were him in this situation, I would not be thinking that you were pathetic, or were crazy about me, or any of those other things you mentioned. If he thought you were pathetic or crazy enough about him to do anything for him he would have told you about her in the first place and tried to get you to continue seeing him or remain in his life to some extent. That's just my opinion. I've said this before and I'll say it as many times as you need me to.... there are not many people I've seen on these boards or met in real life that walked away like you did without breaking contact or having a desperate moment of contacting their ex at least once. You are very strong. If he knows nothing else about you, he knows that now. Write that down.

I'm not sure how your trip will be structured but on the ones I go on we have one free night during the trip. So I hope you get at least one down night or day and can do something nice for yourself while you're on the trip. I'm not sure if you said where you're going (or even if you can) but I really do hope you will stay strong and have him leave the trip maintaining his belief that you are not still hurt and have moved on. Also, for all he knows you ARE seeing someone. He doesn't know you aren't. If he happens to ask you about it on the trip, my response would be something that is innocuous so you keep your boundaries up but also not give him information about your personal life. I wouldn't share anything about your personal life with him - just my advice. I know you've wanted closure but BB is really all the closure you need. It doesn't mean he doesn't suck for a lot of things. It just means that nothing he can say is going to change the outcome or make you feel better (in my opinion). Maybe instead of closure you just want an apology? Did he ever apologize when you had the conversation or was he just trying to make it seem like he didn't know what you were talking about? If I remember correctly he never really admitted that he was seeing her right?

Edited March 7, 2019 by TooMuch2Ask

March 7, 2019

No, he never admitted anything to me. When I first told him that he could have told me that he had a girlfriend and that he had had ample opportunity to tell me as we were together for almost a week overseas, he said he didn't have a girlfriend at that time so there was nothing to tell. Then, when I said that he could have told me anytime and told him that I felt as if I was just a speed bump for him after his divorce until he found someone he wanted to be with, that was when he said that cryptic line "I'm a little curious who you think I'm seeing". I waited a few days, but then I replied and said that I was confused that he didn't know who I was talking about since they had been doing so much traveling together. He never answered that and waited a month to send me that random text after Thanksgiving. So, no, he has never confirmed. This was part of the reason that I thought for so long that maybe I was nuts. Maybe it was all in my head. I was so worried that I had acted "crazy" and that he was going to put me in the "she's nuts" box (I think women are particularly afraid of this label).

So that's why I went back and looked at her page at the end of January. I just needed to know if I was nuts. And I still can't totally tell!! The only way I am much more positive is that she had pictures from a place in Washington state at the end of January. I knew he had a trip for a conference there at that time so I checked the name of the conference with the place she said she was and it was the same. It was not a major city, so I was pretty sure she was with him. Because, she never posts pictures of him and doesn't even say his name. Someone asked her who she was with on the trip and she said "my man!". It is all very strange to me, why he would not just admit everything to me. I kind of wish I had been much more direct in talking to him when I first confronted him, like saying this particular woman is calling you her boyfriend. I sometimes wonder if the reason that he sent that "normal" text to me after everything was because, in his mind, there was no way I would know he was seeing BB and therefore he could just be normal with me. But I don't know. It's just so odd to me, the whole thing. Before all this, I admired his integrity and character and thought he was a really stand up guy. This behavior over the past 6 months is not like anyone I thought I knew.

When we texted that last time, he said something like "I'm really sorry if I hurt you at all". So I guess that is my apology. It seems super lame to me, especially since he admitted nothing. So I don't know what I want from him. I think mostly I just want him to feel bad and to acknowledge everything, because he never did.

Our trip is to the Middle East. We typically all meet as a group in Frankfurt to catch our flight to there. I think I will know very quickly how things are going to be when I see him there. One thing I've been a little anxious about is that first meeting. Typically, we all hug and chat while waiting to board the plane. We're a pretty close group. Once we get on the plane, pretty much everyone sleeps because we've all just come from the States. I'm actually flying to Frankfurt a day early so I can stay there overnight, get some sleep, shower and be fresh when I see him. I worry a little bit about whether I should hug him or what. I think it will look weird to everyone else if I don't and I don't want to make the group dynamic weird. I worry a little bit that he hates me now and that makes me feel sad, but this is probably just my insecurity talking.

Once we are there, we do most things as a group, for security reasons. We have very little alone time. Each day, we usually all have breakfast together, so I would probably see him for about half an hour at that point. Then we all go our separate ways. In the evening, we usually have dinner together, but he doesn't always eat with us because he works really long hours. I would usually see him back at the hotel after dinner, when the whole group will usually have drinks and stay up late. In the past, when we were close, I would sometimes eat with him after he finished for the day and quite often we would hang out in one of our rooms talking. When we hang out after dinner, it's usually a big group of us, so I could definitely hang out with them with him there but not have to talk to him. I've got a lot of work to do before the trip (at the end of April) because I want to be prepared to deal with anything. I think my biggest fear is that he ignores me. That would be hard.

I really like my current therapist. I had one when I was getting out of my toxic relationship and she was really helpful with that, but I found her less helpful once I had gotten better. My new one is a bit closer in age to me and seems like someone I would be friends with if we had met in a different circumstance. She has been SO helpful to me in dealing with all of the insecurity this situation has raised. I am a huge believe in therapy, but I definitely think you have to find the right person.

You know what's weird? I actually want to get my old self back. When I was with my first love, I was super confident. That relationship was very healthy and I felt like I could really be myself with him. I never worried if he didn't call one night, because he showed me in a thousand ways that he was committed to me and loved me. I was brave and fearless about my life. Somewhere in the past 10 years or so, I've lost that young woman and I'd really like to have her back. I feel so lost sometimes.

Hot and cold is the worst. I never want to be in a relationship like that again. Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea what went wrong with your ex's marriage? Were there similar issues? I do think that people don't make drastic changes overnight, so I'm wondering if he brought those similar issues into his marriage.

I'm curious about the guy you're seeing now -- how long have you been seeing him? Does it seem like something that could become serious? I know you said your ex knew you were seeing someone, but did that not bother him? I don't understand how you could love someone and not mind that they were seeing someone else? But maybe that's an easy excuse for him to keep you at arm's length.

That's another thing I miss about dating when I was younger - I feel like no one was really f***ed up yet!! No one had been divorced or cheated on and was still optimistic about love. Sigh.

Hope your week is going along well. I'm at my Dad's place this weekend for his birthday and it feels nice to have company other than my cat (I've become that cat lady everyone fears).

March 8, 2019

That's what I thought happened at the end. It's been a while since I read your original story but I thought that's what happened. Yeah, that was a rather lame apology considering all the time you spent together and everything you shared. There is no question in my mind that they are together, at least to her. He doesn't have social media so he may be unaware that she is calling him her man (which is why he said what he said about being curious to know who he was seeing - maybe he hadn't officially told her they were exclusive). So, to me, he either made it clear with her they are together or he led her on and she took it upon herself to say they are together. I think you are on point and what you think is what is going on between them. But you're right, him doing all of that behind your back is not the person he showed you he was. If I found out that my ex was back together with his wife or something along those lines I would feel the same way. Even though he has done things to hurt me, I've not questioned his honesty or integrity up to this point. That's a doubly whammy for sure.

I would feel the same way - I would regret being direct with him and asking specific questions or saying specific things. I am very assertive with most things but in these types of situations I tend to do what you did. For one, part of me wouldn't have wanted to hear him say it because I would have already been so hurt and rejected. Secondly, I wouldn't have wanted to seem like I cared so much to go through all the trouble of looking. I also identify with not wanting to seem crazy - and you're right, most women are super sensitive to that!! My therapist would say this to me - so let's focus on what you know. You know that he took trips with another woman while seeing you. You know that she felt comfortable and close enough to him to call him her man and post pics of them together. You know he didn't really have a defense when you confronted him. Based on all of that I think that it doesn't really matter how specific your questions were, you have all the information you need. I know that doesn't really help because, if you're like me, we want all of our questions answered and we want to know what we want to know. Your gut knows. I do hope you get the apology you need and deserve though. If for no other reason that so you can feel better knowing that someone you treated with decency had enough courtesy to respond in kind.

Hmmmm the first meeting.... that could be tricky. I think getting there a day early to prepare is an excellent idea!! I don't think anyone else in the group will notice if you do or don't hug. They'll all be tired from traveling, etc. and won't likely notice that everyone hugged everyone else, just my thought. They would notice if you said something mean loudly to him (which you wouldn't do anyway) but I'm not sure they would notice if you didn't hug. You'll have to definitely think about what you want and need out of that first greeting. If you need space and distance then I think you should take it and put that boundary up regardless of what anyone else thinks or feels anyway. After all, you didn't create this awkwardness, he did. So you should not have to bust your boundary due to his actions (or inactions). You have plenty of time to mull it over but I hope your end decision is based solely on YOU and not anyone else being comfortable.

I don't think he would ignore you. I just don't. I don't know why I feel that way though. I do think that how you present yourself in the beginning of the trip is what will set the tone for how he acts and responds to you because he knows what he's done. Why didn't you and your first love last? You've probably said it in one of your posts but we've posted so many that I can't remember. I think you are less lost than you give yourself credit for. You may feel that way sometimes but you are very much aware of yourself and what you're going through. You're just really hard on yourself sometimes and I think your "self" needs more kindness and understanding from you.

My ex has talked about his marriage a few times but we haven't gone into a ton of details. He said that it ended for a variety of reasons. He found out she was seeing an old boyfriend that she reconnected with on facebook coupled with a lot of bad financial decisions. He felt like she held him back with a lot that he wanted to be and do because of what she wanted - as opposed to deciding together. There is probably way more than just that but that's the information he's shared. I haven't questioned him a lot, to be honest, which is so unlike me. There are a lot of things in this situation with him that are unlike me. Reason #989 I am not going to be her anymore. I'm done.

So with the guy I'm seeing, my ex has asked a few questions about the guy I'm seeing (it's been 2 months now and I do think it can go somewhere - I really like him and the feeling is mutual - so I literally have to be done with my ex, I just have to). My ex and I are not physical and the emotional ties are getting weaker every single day, for me especially. Originally when this situation started he made it clear that he didn't want to disrupt my life because he knew I was looking for something long term. For him, long term is not something he is able to give anyone right now, not just me. So I accepted it because I felt like I could end it if and when I needed to. I realize that was very naive of me to think I could get close to him and then just end it further down the road. Clearly I wasn't using my best judgement, sigh. I'm sure it bothers him to some degree. He also knows he can't offer me any of that so he can only be bothered so much. He had me at arms length before that began so I think it's just who he is. He has told me many times that he doesn't trust many people, he's been let down by so many in his life etc. Regardless of if I was seeing someone or not this is how he would be treating me. He literally doesn't have time to have a girlfriend of any kind. He works full time m-f during the day then works 6 days a week at night for 40+ hours. So even if we both wanted to be in a relationship he doesn't have much leftover emotionally, mentally or physically. He also has to see his kids in between all of that. He's working the two jobs because of the financial situation he was left in during their marriage. I still wonder if they are still separated but haven't really ruminated on it a ton because we aren't going to engage in this anymore so it's ultimately none of my business.

My week has been good so far. I did see him in the office 2 days ago and he was cold and didn't engage much - he said it was because he's physically and emotionally exhausted. I'm over it. It was the first time since this all started that I walked out of the office smiling after seeing him like that because I'm done with the roller coaster. I also know I need to be done because I don't want to end up hating him and that's where this is headed. I have strong negative feelings about him each time this happens and I don't want to work with someone I hate. I can't be that person for him anymore. It's not good for me and I really don't want to be in that gray area anymore like you mentioned.

The cat lady comment made me laugh!!!! You aren't a cat lady! Cat ladies don't go on mission trips to the middle east lolllllll! I'm glad you have big plans for the weekend!

March 8, 2019

My first love and I broke up because I wasn't ready to get married. We had been back and forth a few times and we were both in phases on rapid change in our lives. I was in medical school in California and he was in graduate school in Washington. I thought I needed to have some freedom and not worry about sustaining a relationship so we broke up. Then, when he finished school 9 months later, he moved to California and lived with me for a year to try to get back together. I loved him dearly but I don't know that I was in love with him like he was with me. After that year, he decided to go back to school back east and left. We remained in really close touch for the next two years, even though we weren't together. He dated one woman for a while but it didn't work out. Somewhere in there, he met another woman that is now his wife. They started dating and it got pretty serious. Weirdly, I was pretty upset when I found out about it, but he was very upfront with me about it. He never lied to me or hid it, even though we were just friends by then. He called me to let me know that they were getting married and they invited me, but I couldn't go. It would have killed me. The weekend he got married, I signed up to work extra because I wanted to be distracted. I had to get up super early for work. I was driving to work at something like 4:30am when he called me. It was so weird because I hadn't heard from him in months and I didn't answer (I now kick myself for not answering). He didn't leave a message and I've always wondered why he was calling. We are friends on Facebook, but I don't go to his page because although I really am happy for him, it makes me so sad to see him with his wife and children.

My relationship with him was the best that I've had in terms of being healthy. I fear the ones that followed have messed me up.

I had kind of a bummer of a day today. I am staying with my Dad for a few days and that is great, but he's sick and it's very stressful for me. I've been thinking of Mr. B so much. It is very frustrating. I do think I feel better overall compared to a few months ago, but it is a SLOW process and this is frustrating. On one hand, I don't want to think about him, but on the other, I don't want to let go of him either. It's like if I stop thinking about him, he disappears forever. Do you ever feel this way? Of course, your guy is in your face a lot, so that probably is a whole different problem. You might like to have the opportunity to forget about him for a little while.

I was actually feeling somewhat ok this afternoon and decided to take a nap. I dreamed of him, but I can't remember what the dream was about. I woke up because my phone was ringing. When I looked, it was a number with a Houston area code. I deleted his number from my phone, but his number has a Houston area code. I immediately got a little flip of my stomach. I do still have his lame text from Thanksgiving (more just to remind me how lame his last effort was) so I went and checked to see if it was the same number and it wasn't. I was actually disappointed. At this point I know he will never call me again. I do think that if I were to reach out to him, he would probably answer. But I feel like I deserve something more substantial than the last stupid text he sent me.

Your ex and mine sound really similar. Mine works super long hours too. He usually has his kids whenever he can and coaches their basketball teams and so forth. For whatever his other faults are, he is a very good dad and I know how much he loves his children and values their happiness. I admire this about him. When I talked to my friend on the phone the other day, she said that she thinks he is very good at his work (he is very accomplished in his field at a relatively young age) and is a good dad. She thinks he derives his sense of himself and his pride in himself from those things. She said she thinks that he is relatively immature when it comes to relationships and is avoidant. She thinks that his ex-wife was very domineering and that this new woman is likely the one driving this situation and he is going along with. I have no idea if that's true. I'd like it to be, but I don't know. It reminds me of that scene in Sex and the City when Carrie finds out that Mr. Big got married. They are reading the wedding story from the paper and she's like "I don't hear him anywhere in this story. This is all her. She's calling the shots and he's along for the ride". Then someone reads another detail and she realizes that he is actually invested and breaks down in tears.

Why is it so hard to let go of someone that is not good for us? My rational brain looks at the situation and says that he was shady. I know I deserve better. But in the absence of someone or something else, it's like there's this vacuum. That's why I have been curious about your new(er) guy. Does he make it less difficult for you? I sit and wish that I would meet someone, but I'm sure if I did, I wouldn't be ready to be in a real relationship. Not until I can really, really let go of Mr. B. Maybe in another 4 months.

March 9, 2019

I had kind of a bummer of a day today. I am staying with my Dad for a few days and that is great, but he's sick and it's very stressful for me. I've been thinking of Mr. B so much. It is very frustrating. I do think I feel better overall compared to a few months ago, but it is a SLOW process and this is frustrating. On one hand, I don't want to think about him, but on the other, I don't want to let go of him either. It's like if I stop thinking about him, he disappears forever. Do you ever feel this way? Of course, your guy is in your face a lot, so that probably is a whole different problem. You might like to have the opportunity to forget about him for a little while.

All of this. Yes, I feel that exact same way sometimes. I know I see my ex but this still resonates with me. It's like I don't want him to fully be out of my life even though I know that it will be much healthier for me if he is. We both definitely deserve more than the crumbs we've been given in these dead end situations. I am in a way better place than I was several months ago when I first realized this was an emotional roller coaster. I'm a little bit better at being able to deal with my emotions but it still really sucks.

I'm sorry your dad is sick. Is he sick with something specific or just not feeling well right now? Maybe visiting with him will help take your mind off things for a little bit. I've been so busy this weekend - my youngest had a tennis match last night and today so I've been with him. Keeps me from ruminating over him so much.

Very ironic that you were dreaming of him and then a Houston number called your phone. Veryyyyyy ironic and kind of freaky! Did the number leave a message? He would definitely answer if you called him and, yes, you deserve way more than his the last stupid text he sent. I think it's so hard for you to let go because you saw his potential and you saw glimpses of what could have been a great relationship. You have the memories of all the good times and that is hard to let go of once you fall in love with someone. I wish I could say all of those things are the reason I'm having such a hard time letting go of mine. We didn't have years of history - there was emotional baggage in mine from the very beginning but I chose to overlook it because of our connection (how lame is that?). The funny thing is, that even with the prospect of someone else it's still really tough for me to fully walk away. I'm doing it, but it's hard. Right now, I'm just trying to take it one day at a time. Nothing else I can do. Today I feel kind of numb about it. I've wanted to contact him all day. I'm not going to, but I want to. It will get better each day and I won't give in and have any conversations with him this time. I have a really busy week next week so I hope that helps distract me.

I think your friend is right about your ex - his reputation is built on his work and his family as with most men. He's clearly emotionally immature (as is mine) as evidenced by not being able to have that conversation with you prior to you finding out in the first place. Who was the domineering one in your relationship with him? Were those lines clearly defined when you were seeing him?

Thank you for sharing that about your first love. I'm sorry it ended the way that it did but am glad you had the experience of having a healthy relationship. I'm not sure how many healthy relationships I've had, to be honest. I did make the decision this week that I won't be having any more conversations with my ex about anything unrelated to work. I'm done hearing him out, I'm done being his friend, there is nothing else for us to discuss. I have to move on with my life and I really do like this other person. I've had closure (if you can call it that) with my ex - I know where he stands and how he feels. I know there are probably people reading that think if I really liked him I wouldn't have a hard time walking away from the other situation. It's just not that black and white for me in regards to my feelings. I know that with distance, I will heal and be able to move on. So I have created that distance between us and if he asks me to talk or communicate in any way other than work related my response will be no. I don't owe him an explanation. He knows everything he has done, or not done. He doesn't need me to spell it out for him. Having an emotional conversation with him will only weaken my resolve - that's what happened over a week ago. When he asked to talk I had been prepared to tell him I was done doing this etc. but then he said all of these things and I couldn't say it. Words are just that... words. I have to show him I'm done. I am not leaving the door open. It's closed. Now I'm just crossing my fingers that the position I want gets posted soon and I get it.

I'm actually not sure if the new guy makes it less or more difficult for me. Maybe some days he makes it less difficult for me because I see that there is potential for something real and I really do want that and am ready for it. Some other days I think it makes it more difficult because I have feelings for two people and that sucks.

March 9, 2019

@TooMuch2Ask, I was so happy to see your message! It's funny how you can start to look forward to talking to someone that is, when you get down to it, a total stranger. I wouldn't know you if I passed you on the street (or any of the other posters that have given me wonderful advice and support) but I have bared some of my deepest thoughts here.

I had a real down day this morning. I might as well be totally honest. I went back to her page. Why did I do that? I don't know. I think sometimes that I just cannot accept it. Probably because it was all so vague and he was never honest with me, but maybe because I just can't stop hurting myself or something. As I thought, there was nothing really more than what there was before. Another trip with no pictures of him, only of her and places they went. Tons of pictures of her doing things in their town with her friends and her children, without him. Only this time I noticed that she lists herself as "in a relationship". I don't know how long that has been there. It stung to see that, although of course I know this deep down.

I was so upset after that. With the situation, but mostly with myself. I feel stuck in times like this and it's of my own making. I'm the one going to her page and looking at all of her pictures and then wondering what their relationship is about. Wondering why her and not me. I am a masochist. I cried for a long time and then talked to my Dad for a while. He helped a lot but I still had it in my mind. I even googled "he doesn't want me, why can't I let him go" because I feel so stuck.

Then I talked to my brother over text about it. My brother is very practical and can be pretty blunt. Sometimes, when he's in the mood, he gives very good advice. Today, he was in a good mood. I said how frustrated I was and how I wanted to stop this cycle. I told him how I felt so bad about myself right now and he asked what it would take for me to feel good about myself. I told him that everyone always says that you have to love yourself before you can have a healthy relationship and that was where I wanted to get. He asked what that would look like, to love myself and I had no idea. I literally had no idea what that would look like. No wonder I am stuck. It was an eye opener, to be sure, and I can't stop thinking about that. What does it mean to love yourself? Not just as a hippie thing to say, but to really, really love yourself. And support yourself. I feel lost about that. I'd be curious to hear what others think about that.

My brother also said I needed to date. Not to find a new relationship, but just to get out there and see that there are other men in the world. I downloaded that app Hinge and have been getting "likes" and comments all day. Part of me feels good about it, another part feels so anxious. I don't want to move on, in a way. I want to jump to the part where I fall in love with someone new and he is perfect for me. I want to skip the parts of first dates and awkward goodbyes. I can understand why it's not so easy for you with this new guy. You're kind of "faking it until you make it" on some level. I am envious of you, but I can understand why it would make things so cloudy for you to be dating one man while still preoccupied with thoughts of another.

My Dad has esophageal cancer. He is currently undergoing his second round of chemo. The first went pretty well, but his cancer is advanced and it scares me to death. I know our parents will not live forever, but he is my rock and has always been my biggest fan and support. So the thought of him not being here is devastating. He was diagnosed last summer and between that, this situation with Mr. B, and my struggles with fertility that I talked about a few pages back, 2018 was the WORST year of my life. 2019 is not much better so far, but I am hopeful. My Dad is tolerating his treatments pretty well and we are able to spend time with him as a family, so I am thankful.

I don't think it's lame to overlook someone's shortcomings. I think it's very human. If you're like me, you don't meet men you want to be with very often. It was a long draught before I met my ex. I would meet men, like them, and then find out they were married or with someone. And I am not interested in going after a taken man, so that would kill that. When I met Mr. B, he seemed to check SO many boxes. Except one small thing. He didn't want to commit to me. This is actually a huge thing, of course, but I convinced myself that it wasn't a big thing. When we really want that person to be who we want them to be, we can really overlook a lot. I think a lot of this comes back to being able to stand up for what we want and to not settle for less than. It's one thing to "settle" for a guy that maybe isn't as tall as you wanted or doesn't have six pack abs, but we should never settle for someone that can't be sure that they want and are ready to be with us too. But I don't think you are lame at all. You were friends with this guy first, so there was a lot of good credit built up with him. You had a connection. Of course you wanted to see where it would go. We always convince ourselves that it will be ok, that we can handle it. Heartbreak memory is pretty short when you're excited about someone new.

I am super impressed with your boundaries. I know how hard it is to walk away and to mean it and stick with it. In the movie, that's the last scene, where the woman walks away. They don't show the scenes afterwards, where she is crying in her apartment because she's lonely and fears that no one will ever love her again. In some ways, walking away is no where near the end, it's really the beginning. Because you still have to let them go, they just don't know how you are struggling to do it. So I guess it's somewhat easier. I do know that loving yourself probably means not groveling, begging, and basically debasing yourself by allowing a man to reject you again and again. So at least I do know (and am practicing) that.

I'm also a little jealous that you have children. It's an extremely long story but I still dream that I will have children. It's been an emotional and expensive process but I am working towards it and haven't given up. I know the grass is always greener, but to have them to love is really awesome.

I hope your weekend is going well and that you are staying strong and distracted. I am feeling much better after talking to my brother and hoping to just keep going.

March 10, 2019

I wanted to post several different times yesterday but just couldn’t. It was a really rough one for me and I knew posting would make me cry and I didn’t want to in front of the kids. It wasn’t rough for any reason in particular which is frustrating.

I don’t blame you for going to her page. I have gone to my ex’s wife’s Facebook page - she has one but he doesn’t. I’ve done it several times - I’m not proud of it. I guess I’ve just wanted to see if she is posting stuff with him bc if she is then I know they aren’t separated like he says. Her page isn’t public so it’s hard to see anything but there’s nothing there questionable that I can see. Ultimately it doesn’t matter bc they aren’t divorced and that’s a problem in and of itself. I wish you would have at least seen something different when you checked. It’s a hard when you feel stuck. If sucks.

I think it’s totally normal to think why her and not you. I have thought that in a relationship I was in shortly after my separation. It was fairly toxic and I didn’t realize it at first bc I didn’t have much experience. It didn’t last very long but there were a lot of things I knew in my gut but didn’t listen bc I was naive. It’s normal for us to compare ourselves - I think we just have to keep doing the self talk that it’s not about us, it’s about them when we start to do it. I have googled so many different things over the last few months. Omg it’s crazy. I’ve saved articles and read them over and over only to still be trying to figure this out.

I’m so glad you were able to talk to your dad and brother - you have a really good support system. Your brother is right about you needing to date. I know it doesn’t feel comfortable for you but I also think that is a good step. It’s not saying you’re trying to replace your pain but dating can really just get your confidence level back up and help. I’ve heard of hinge - have you connected with anyone yet? I love your brothers question about what loving yourself looks like to you. For me, it looks like me walking away from this situation and not worrying about what he thinks or how he feels but only about how I feel. I’m rarely selfish but in this case I’m going to be. Loving myself is allowing myself to have difficult days and not getting down on myself about it but setting a time limit and not sulking for days at a time. So that’s what it looks like for me right now. It will change as I start to get over him and this situation though.

I’m sorry about your dad. That has to be so tough. I’m glad you’re able to spend time with him and that he’s responding to treatment though. I’m definitely faking it until I make it. It works sometimes. Other times I just have to push through. I’m doing my best! I am the same way - I don’t find many men that check all the boxes or that I like enough to fall for. So when I fall I fall hard. Unfortunately. I’m working on making better choices with who I allow to be part of my world. I think it’s going to take a while but I refuse to live my life being in a relationship that is not good for me. I think you have shown yourself love by walking away from that situation. It wasn’t easy for you but you did it. Now we just have to take it a step further...

Have you thought of adopting or having a surrogate? I don’t know the extent of your fertility issues but I know that is so very hard to deal with and I’m so so sorry. 2018 was definitely a difficult year for you. How has the rest of your weekend been? Today is a better day. Yesterday sucked. I looked at my phone all day

March 10, 2019

@nolanola I'm sorry to hear about your dad, that's tough. Both my parents are alive and while they have some health problems neither are seriously concerning but I often think about the day that they'll be gone and I dread it. You had asked me earlier about whether I forgave my ex-wife and I'll say that goes back and forth on a monthly basis. It's something I'll never forget really, even if that relationship is something I'm long over, I haven't forgot the pain or the actions of my ex-wife. In many ways I've moved on, but I've never forgotten the betrayal of her cheating especially when the she painted me as the transgressor.

As for my recent ex, her paying me the money back seemed more like an attempt at quelling her guilt than getting forgiveness from me. Forgiveness isn't payed for in money, that's for sure. She hasn't payed me for anything else and I have not heard a word from her. I have no plans on reaching out though down the road I may weigh my options on getting the rest of the money she owes me. We'll see what happens. Forgiveness should be earned, and acting like nothing happened, well, that's not a true shot at forgiveness.

I know you're frustrated with how you've been feeling lately and I've been dealing with the same thing. I was telling my therapist that I thought I'd be further along emotionally and she told me that most people who've invested this kind of time into any relationship take at least a year to really get to where they need to be. There's a lot of truth to it because I definitely felt that way after my divorce.

I also talked to her about things from my past relationships that always weirded me out about women. All of my exes have made comments in the vein of "I'm going to end up alone" while they were in a relationship with me. There wasn't anything I had done to warrant this kind of comment, it all just came up in conversation, but it definitely made me think "what am I doing wrong?" My therapist told me that almost all of her female clients have said this to her as well, despite many of them being in relationships already, and that all I could do is ask why they felt that way. I've never understood it, but it's a fear that seems to permeate the female mind in the modern age that I can't do much about, and it confuses me even more since I've never been the one to initiate the end of my relationships. What do you and the other women on here think about that? I know it's not me, but I really don't think women need to feel this way but I see it in almost all of the women I date and have befriended over the years.

While this process can be very frustrating, the back and forth of it all, I've found myself pretty happy to not have to answer to someone anymore. I know that dating right now isn't something on my horizon because I've found a lot of freedom in being single again. I've stayed extremely busy and this whole week was both crazy at work and in life. I went out with two of my best friends, a couple I have been close with for years, and did a whole bunch of things with them this week that I probably wouldn't have done with my ex. They got pretty wasted at a concert we went to and let's just say I was overwhelmingly entertained (I don't drink myself but I'm not gonna stop others from having a good time), I hadn't laughed that hard in a while. As I told them the story the next day we were all nearly in tears from the laughter because they couldn't remember much of what happened. My recent ex was a high functioning alcoholic but I never had this kind of experience with her. It definitely gave me a lot of hope for the future. That said, the next person I date long term will likely be someone sober like myself (okay okay, my ex-wife was sober but that didn't stop her from acting like a maniac!).

@TooMuch2Ask Your situation is interesting and seems to draw some parallels to @nolanola's. Do you think your attraction to this guy has been so strong because of his lack of emotional availability? I've seen so many women wait around for guys who just keep them around for whatever reason (most of the time it's sex, but sometimes for the attention, which seems to be what this guy is about) without any commitment, and the women stick around. I don't see the same emotional ambiguity from women I'm just starting to date, I've really only seen it from women at the end of my relationship with them, and it's generally been enough for me to walk away, because I feel that kind of behavior is unattractive. This whole "I don't know what I want, I need to find myself, I can't give you what you want" yadda yadda yadda be it through words or actions has no place in my life. Just curious about your own self-analysis.

I hope this weekend is better for all on this thread. Time is a great healer, just make sure to get out there and fill your days and nights with things to do.

March 11, 2019

@EndNote It was never a relationship I thought would become permanent or sustainable. I think the reason I've been in it so long is because we were friends beforehand and I genuinely have feelings for him as a person. We definitely never promised each other a relationship or commitment. We just wanted to spend time together and be in each other's lives. I don't think I characterized him as emotionally unavailable to begin with. Once I realized that was the case it became hard to just walk away. It's definitely not like I'm waiting around for him to make a commitment to me because I'm not - we would never work together. I guess I'm just having a hard time because I can't just be friends with him right now due to my feelings and lack of boundaries when it comes to him. He is very inconsistent with his words and actions. The push/pull and back/forth from him is definitely unattractive, like you said. So that's why I'm walking away. It's just easier said than done because we work together and I do have to see him sometimes. Part of me has probably been attracted to his unavailability because then I didn't have to be fully available to him either. So I guess it was probably ok with me until I got to the point where I wanted to find someone to share my life with long term. Then I started to realize I didn't want this with him but, by then, I was already emotionally involved. It's just been a process. I think I'm on the right track now though - I haven't spoken to him and don't plan on it.

@nola

I hope the rest of your weekend went well. I definitely missed hearing from you!

March 16, 2019

I decided I needed to take a break for a while after my last post. I'm not sure if being on this site contributed to my feelings or if it was something else, but I did feel mostly better for the week. I think sometimes keeping your mind focused on something informs your feelings. It's like where your mind goes, your feelings follow. My Dad always tells me that feelings aren't real, they're just feelings, but when you are upset and anxious, they feel incredibly real.

I was doing some traveling for work so I decided to just try to focus on other things for that time period. When I would start to think about him, I would actively redirect my thoughts. It's very hard to do for me, because thinking about him and turning that Rubik's cube over in my mind is a very comfortable place for me. Which is strange, because it's also a painful place. Why would I want to stay in a place that causes me pain? That is not very self-loving of me.

I've been chatting with some men on Hinge and it's going fine, although I still feel like my heart isn't in it. My brother told me that I needed to look at it like working out. You don't always feel like working out, but you just have to make yourself do it. I'm trying to approach it from a place of being open. Some of the men seem interesting and I'm pretty much chatting with whomever reaches out that doesn't seem like a serial killer. The thing I hate about apps in general is that you can get stuck in a back and forth chatting scenario, which I definitely don't want. I'm there to try to meet some men and go out on dates, not to text back and forth with someone forever.

@Endnote, I always appreciate your comments. Sometimes when we are struggling, we think we are the only ones feeling the way we are feeling. It's nice to see how other people struggle too. Makes me feel less alone.

I think, for women, the possibility of not being "chosen" is more present and feared than it is for men. Even though our society has advanced quite a bit and many, many people do not marry these days, there is still that expectation. There is a sense that if you don't marry, or at least have someone, there is something wrong with you. Especially as we get older. If you could listen to women at 29 or 39 talking to each other, you would hear it. They are terrified of winding up unmarried at 30 or 40. 40 is the real cliff. I've read it on these boards. And it's not just the women. There was a post on here a while back about a woman whose partner took up with a 21 year old right after they broke up. One man wrote in and said that she was over the hill and had nothing to offer a man. A woman's worth is still based heavily on her looks and body. So I think a lot of women have this fear just under the surface. Men have their own fears and societal expectations, but I think that is why a lot of women are terrified that if they don't settle into something, they'll be alone and then they'll be a "spinster" or "old maid".

@TooMuch2Ask, I did miss being on here and reading your posts. You have been such a comfort to me. It made me feel better to see that you too have looked at Facebook when you shouldn't have. I have decided to take a break from Facebook, full stop. Just being on there makes me feel so anxious. Until I get to the point that I don't care, I don't need to be there. I hope you are doing well. I understand the up and down so much. It is very frustrating, but as endnote pointed out, it's entirely reasonable that it takes a long time. We didn't meet these people and fall in love with them in one day, so it seems weird that we would get over them in one day.

I met with my therapist yesterday after a long hiatus. We talked about the loving yourself question. She advised me to try to think about situations in the past and to try to think about how I could have shown love to myself in that moment. Or to try to think of the new situations that arise in the same way. She was saying that in doing that, I will start to retrain myself to think differently. It is very tough, because sometimes I don't know how. When it involves another person, like if someone is saying something abusive towards you or something, it's not that hard to think about how to act in a loving manner. But what if the person that's being abusive is yourself? How do you counter that?

I went to a barbecue last night with a bunch of co-workers. I get along with pretty much all of them and it was nice to hang out with them. But I often feel awkward in those situations and as an introvert, am not naturally great at small talk. Most of them brought their significant others and/or their children and although it was really nice to see all the kids, it just drove home my alone-ness so much more. When I got home, I felt so depressed I tried to think of how I could be loving towards myself in that moment and I was coming up totally blank. So it's still a work in progress.

I got an email yesterday about our trip in about 6 weeks. My friend had told me that he is planning on going, but he wasn't on the email. My therapist and I have started talking a little bit about how I should approach the trip, but to be honest, I really don't want to over-analyze it to death. I would like to get to the point that I can go, be friendly with everyone, and treat him like someone that I am superficially friends with. Meaning, I won't ignore him, but I won't put any special attention on him either.

I'm off work today and worried that having some free time will allow me to ruminate and obsess. I'm going to some work so that I don't have that opportunity to pick up that Rubik's cube and turn it over.

March 18, 2019

Hey Nola! So glad to see you posted again. I figured you were just taking a break but since we all only communicate on these boards it’s hard to know for sure!

I also travelled for work last week, ironic. I have really been working on moving on and giving myself a break when I fall short of being perfect with the process. He asked to meet me last week and I agreed. Even though we’ve had “conversations” before about what the issues between us have been he has only ever talked about being busy and overwhelmed as the excuse. He told me last week that the reason he is inconsistent and engages in the push/pull is because he is scared of getting too close given that there is no end game of us being together (for various reasons on both of our ends). He is scared that if we get really close and one of us ends it, it could be bad at work and would be difficult for both of us to get over. I already knew this was part of it but he went into more detail etc. He also talked about feeling depressed with everything going on in his life (work, family, kids). I know it’s hard for him to open up to people but I just can’t put him above me anymore. I realize all of this is just words and none of it changes that I need to be done and move on. I said a lot to him in return and it felt good. Even though it hurt when we weren’t talking for several weeks last month it also felt like I was more at peace in my life overall. I can’t be his support person anymore. I really don’t get anything out of this friendship. I’m not sure if I ever did - other than some attention when I was feeling vulnerable. He wants to continue talking to me and seeing me and seems to think he can make the changes in terms of being more consistent. I’m just in a different place now and I don’t feel the same about him as I did before. Obviously my feelings for him haven’t changed but maybe my feelings about what I will and won’t put up with have. Talk about a slow process..... if any of my friends were going through this I would tell them to tell him to go to hell and kick rocks. For me it hasn’t been that simple.

The promotion I talked about a few weeks ago was posted and I immediately applied. Hopefully a month from now I will be in that position. Even though we will be doing the same job, we will have different supervisors and we won’t have any cases in common so there will be that distance. Fingers crossed....

I’ve heard of hinge but never done it. I did bumble and liked it a lot. Have you met anyone yet? I’m glad you took your brother’s advice because I whole heartedly agree with him. Im laughing that you’re responding to everyone that doesn’t seem like a serial killer!!! Made me giggle. I think that’s a good plan bc it helps you get yourself out there and get your feet wet again. I think this is going to be great for you.

I gave up all social media for lent so I’m not on it either for another month. It feels great. I deactivated Facebook for about 3.5 years when I was going through my separation and divorce and didn’t get it back until last April. I could really just delete it forever and be fine. I don’t even know why I got it back again to be honest...

I’m sorry the bbq made you feel lonely and said after. I don’t have a lot of words of encouragement other than to say that even though people there had significant others and children many of them are probably sad and lonely about things in their lives too. I love my kids but I gave up a lot professionally to have them. There were so many things I wanted to do and be but couldn’t because I wanted a flexible schedule to spend more time with them. I’m not saying I regret having them but just offering another perspective.

I know you don’t want to obsess about your trip and him being there so I won’t ask about it. I know that when the time comes for you to see him you will do and say what feels right to you in the moment. You have come such a long way in your healing. I know it’s hard for you to see but from an outsider’s perspective - you have.

Edited March 18, 2019 by TooMuch2Ask

March 19, 2019

Thanks TooMuch2Ask. It's hard for me to see any progress, because it's been slow. I do feel better, mostly. I'm trying to fill my plate with new things so that I stay busy. I had signed up to volunteer with an organization that helps women get back on their feet and prepare for job interviews. Today I had my first "shift" and it was really great. Doing new things helps me feel like I am moving forward and making new connections. One of the things that is hardest for me is that I do still sometimes feel like I am waiting for something to happen. I had hoped that I would get more of an explanation or apology from my ex, but as time passes, I feel like this is less and less likely. In a way, I'm a bit jealous of you that your ex seems to want to continue to communicate with you and seems to want to keep the door open. I know that must be terribly confusing and difficult for you as you're trying to move on. But the opposite is really hard too. It feels like my ex made one feeble attempt and then gave up and decided to never talk to me again.

It's really weird. For so long I wanted to see him again and now that the reality of possibly seeing him again in about 5 weeks is looming, I don't want to see him. It's too late for me to back out but the thought of seeing him makes my stomach turn. I got a message today from another man that goes on our trip and it was so nice to talk to him. I was reminded of all the friends I have in that group that I'll get to spend time with. It will be very hard for me to not be very, very aware of what my ex is doing or not doing. And I know if he's sitting there texting it will make my stomach turn because I'll assume he's texting BB. When I broke up with my toxic ex, I had to see him at work all the time. For about 5 days, we were on hurricane activation at the hospital and had to spend hours and hours together. He was texting the new person he was seeing all the time and it was so hard for me to watch. I fear the same thing happening again. I'm really scared about how it will go, but I am definitely going to work on it with my therapist before then.

I have a date with a guy tomorrow night from hinge. And I'm setting up another one. Honestly, my heart is not really in it, but I committed to my brother that I would at least try to "get back out there". I am not the best at small talk, so that gives me some anxiety. But I made a date to meet this guy kind of early and plan to call it a night pretty early. If it sucks, at least it will make a good story. I will update after.

It sounds like you are doing really well too and I'm impressed at how quickly you're processing everything. I hope your transfer goes through quickly so you will not have to see him as often. I think that's a big step: to go from wanting to see the person to not wanting to see them. There's something about acceptance with that change. Like that you know that seeing them just prolongs the pain and not seeing them, although it's also hard, is better for your sanity.

Thanks also for the encouragement about the barbecue. I am proud of myself for going to these types of things, because I am naturally an introvert and I would much rather be at home making dinner. Or reading. So even just getting out and forcing myself to try to make small talk for a few hours feels like a victory.

Edited March 19, 2019 by nolanola

March 20, 2019

@nola

I know it doesn't feel like you've made progress but you really have. Maybe you should read a few of your posts from the first few days/weeks you started this thread to remind yourself how far you've come. Your progress being slow is not a bad thing at all. It's like weight loss, if you lose it too quick it just comes right back on... the healthiest way to lose is to do it slowly. I think the healthiest way to recover is to go through the emotions, all of them, not try to take shortcuts to quicken the process. Just my opinion

I know you think it's better for me because my ex keeps trying to talk to me and explain things. I view it as equally difficult. I keep having to re-open the wound every time he wants to explain why he has cast me aside yet again or why he is doing (or not doing) certain things. Even though it provides me with an explanation, it doesn't make me feel any better about the situation. I still have the same feelings for him and yet I still have to move on and let him go. If he just didn't contact me again at least I wouldn't have to keep talking over things with him and "letting go" every other week. I guess what I'm saying is it's hard any way you look at it. Yes, my ex wants to keep the door open... because it's convenient for him. He certainly isn't looking out for my best interests. If he was he would let me go and allow me to move on because he knows the end game. So maybe my ex is even more selfish than yours. At least yours has let you go because he ultimately knew he couldn't give you want you wanted/needed. Maybe I'm giving your ex too much credit though?

I completely understand the vacillation between wanting to see him and not. In your situation, it must be nerve wracking to think about and deal with. I'm glad you can't get out of going on the trip because I definitely think you should go! It would bother me seeing him on his phone also. I can only hope he will have enough respect for you not to do that, or to at least keep it at a minimum. It's funny that you say that about him texting because I am hyper aware of my ex and his phone. He rarely gets on it around me even when we've been together all day. I'm not saying that means anything, just saying that I have paid attention to whether he is on his phone when we're together or not. I'm sure it will make you feel sad and disrespected if you have to be in that situation. All I can say about it is that he will likely be on the phone but it could be with his kids, etc. Also, I'll continue to say this, their relationship is not all unicorns and roses due to his commitment issues still being there.

The volunteer position you're doing sounds amazing. I love doing things like that and it really does help keep your mind off of things while you're there!

Let me know how the date went!! I'm excited and nervous for you. I know how hard it must be to put yourself out there when you aren't feeling up to dating at all but it is such a big step in the right direction for you. I'm looking forward to hearing all about it!!!

I definitely don't feel like I've processed anything quickly. Even though I know I have to let go and move on I really haven't done anything about it other than in my head and posting on here. It's not like I'm ignoring him. With the new position, I will see him just as much and maybe even a little more. The difference will be that I won't have to interact with him about cases. So I would just see him in passing (and I can get around that too)which will be better than having to talk about cases and email when I've done something with one of our cases in common etc. You're right though... I have changed from wanting to see him and run into him to wanting to avoid him and not run into him at all. I guess that is progress.

I was sitting in my car yesterday waiting for an appt and thought "what am I even getting out of this friendship". It was kind of sad to think about. I feel like I have been emotionally supportive to him in so many different ways and, yet, I don't think I ever lean on him for anything. I don't really confide things in him or ask anything of him (other than being consistent with communication in the past). I guess I've never really felt like there was any room for me to have needs beyond the communication because he has so much going on already. How sad is that? Anyway, it just made me feel sad thinking that maybe he's never really been my friend. Or maybe I was just trying to figure out why I've kept him in my life for so long when I'm clearly not getting anything out of it other than sadness and push/pull. So I will need to address this with myself, for sure!

March 20, 2019

@nola
I know it doesn't feel like you've made progress but you really have. Maybe you should read a few of your posts from the first few days/weeks you started this thread to remind yourself how far you've come.

I agree with that. I don't visit LS very often and this thread is always the first one I open. I have the feeling that you've come a long way since November. My own break-up was on November 18 and even though I went NC right away, I couldn't stop thinking about him and why things went wrong constantly (I mean...literally...27/7). You wrote something similar back then and that got me hooked on this thread in the first place.

And now, as you wrote in one of your last posts, you're at a place where you can actively redirect your thoughts whenever you start to think about him. Of course it's not easy, but I bet it would have been impossible at the time you opened this thread.

About the upcoming trip: I personally think that it might actually be good for you to see him there. Worst case scenario would be that he behaves like a moron and is rubbing his new relationship in your face (doesn't seem likely by the way you described him). That would be hurtful, but might help to speed up the recovery process. BUT...even if he's on his best behaviour there: He's just human and it might not be a bad thing to see him as ‘just’ that.

I personally think that after break-ups we tend to either idealize or demonize or exes. At least that’s what I did with my ex. It was always one of those extremes. When I finally saw him again for the first time after our break-up (yup…that happened last week) I was so nervous. I honestly thought I might get a heart attack. But then he opened the door and it was … I don’t know… “just” him. It’s hard to explain without it sounding so superficial. I’m still attracted to him. We still ended up having sex (of course we did). But those deep feelings I had for him are gone. I remember holding him in my arms back in November and being so in love with him that it felt like my heart was too big for my body. And I could have summoned up those feelings for him anytime during the past four months… up until the moment I actually saw him again. That’s when they FINALLY dissolved. That must sound so stupid. English is not my first language and I struggle to express what I really want to say. Anyway, I hope you will have a similar experience with your ex.

March 20, 2019

Thanks for your input and encouragement LauraXX and TooMuch2Ask. Yes, I definitely think I have made progress since November. This morning, when I woke up, he wasn't the first thing I thought of and I didn't even realize it until after about 20-30 minutes. That might not seem like a huge deal, but to me it is because I did nothing but think of him nonstop for months. He used to text or call me at night so for a long time there was a part of me that would hope he would send something late at night. Every morning when I would check my phone and there was nothing, I would get sad again. So I definitely think there is progress. It is slow, but I agree with TooMuch2Ask comparing it to losing weight. Being able to feel what I need to feel and to think what I need to think is helping me to hopefully put it behind me.

I went out on my first date in a long time last night. It was nice. He seems like an interesting guy, although I'm not sure we have a lot in common. He's 34 and I'm 42 and he seems to still be in a going-out type of lifestyle right now. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't know that we would mesh well long term. Worst case, even if I never see him again, he took me to a beautiful bar I hadn't been to before. He actually asked if I wanted to go see a movie tomorrow, but I have another date that night!! I panicked when he asked and said I had to work. On my way home, I was feeling kind of sad, because I didn't have the connection with him that I had with my ex, but I also felt hopeful, like things will get better. We will see what happens. We had kind of an awkward goodbye at the end. I hugged him goodbye and what came out of my mouth was "keep in touch". Whoops. Sometimes my brain is not well attached to my mouth....

I really hope that by the time my trip comes around I will be in a place of some indifference. Meaning I can be friendly towards him but keep a distance. I could certainly avoid him for the most part if it gets bad (he's texting a lot or talking about his new girlfriend). He usually is only around early in the morning at breakfast and then later in the evening. I completely understand LauraXX what you mean by "he's just human". I feel like I have a right to be angry at him or to still be upset with him, but I don't think we wanted to hurt me intentionally. I'm sure he did not like the fact that I was hurt. I don't feel like I want to let him off the hook yet though.

TooMuch2Ask, that made me sad to read what you said about your friendship with him. I think it's really hard to truly be friends with someone that you've been in a romantic relationship, even if you were friends first. The romantic part kind of takes over all of that and makes it hard to separate what a true friend really is. I doubt he realizes how much frustration and pain he's causing you. Sometimes when we're in our own sadness we can't see anything else. I also think men and women view friendships differently. Definitely there is nothing wrong with realizing that he is not a good support for you right now. Maybe some time down the line you guys can be friends again. In the real sense. Was a good friend to you before you got involved romantically? I have a lot of male friends, but for the most part, they aren't the ones I call when I need support from someone. Not that they couldn't be that person, but I think unless you are extremely close, are dating, or they want to be dating you they probably are going to have limited capacity in those situations. I'm probably overgeneralizing, but I find my female friends much better at listening when I need to talk things out and my male friends better when I need something specific.

I've also been thinking a lot about putting ourselves first. Not in a mean or rude way, but thinking about what a situation is bringing us. Certainly some things are inescapable, like our jobs, but in a relationship, whether it be romantic or platonic, I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at it from the perspective of what it brings to our lives. For so long, I have focused on whether someone liked or loved me and trying to figure that out. Maybe it's time instead that I focus on whether I like or love them instead. And if I don't, then it's time to direct my attention to things and people that make my life happy.

March 20, 2019

@LauraXX

I was wondering how you were doing with everything since it had been a while since you posted. How did you guys leave it after spending the night together? It's funny how that happens with time and distance - the indifference. I yearn for time and distance in my situation. I can create it and did it before so I just need to be committed to giving myself that space again so the indifference can set in. Are you actively dating other people now or are you seeing where it goes with him? Did he reach out to you again after the last time? I think I remember that he was going to set something up to see you and then went out of town or something and you didn't hear from him for a bit.

March 20, 2019

@nola

Omg we are so similar. I think about him (more so the situation lately) when I first wake up most mornings. I literally thought this morning that it will be nice when it isn't my first thought of the day and last thought at night. I'm not necessarily thinking of him perse, just thinking of the situation and circumstances. Perseverating over it I guess you could say. Ugh. Good for you - going 30 minutes is pretty d@mn good if you ask me.

I'm so glad you went on the date last night and had a decent time! I'm 42 next week - can't believe how many similarities there are between us lol! I giggled when you said you told him to keep in touch. First dates are usually pretty awkward but it sounds like yours went fairly well, especially if he asked you back out. I know you're bummed about not having the same connection but there are other types of connections that are important. I've read a blog that I think is helpful. It's Evan Marc Katz. He's pretty straight forward about what women should be looking for and what they should and shouldn't put up with while in the dating process. Check him out - he tells it like it is. I'm looking forward to hearing how your other date goes tomorrow night also!!

In regards to your trip, you absolutely have a right to still be angry with him. What he did was hurtful and disrespectful. I don't think you should give him a free pass at all. I know it should probably mean something when someone doesn't hurt us "intentionally" but sometimes I think that's just a cop out. None of us get to walk around and hurt people just because we didn't "mean" to or because we didn't do it on purpose. I know others on these boards will say that acting like you've moved on or acting like you're fine now is the way to regain your power. That is partly true. I'm also of the school of thought that acting like you're fine or have moved on is almost giving him a free pass so he doesn't have to feel guilty or worry about anything he's done or not done to you or in the relationship. How you act or react to him will have to be something you think about and process. I get that. I'm definitely not saying you should go ape ***** on him or anything like that. I guess I just don't think he should leave with the impression that you're just fine or are ok being friends with him etc. If any of that makes sense...

It made me sad when I re-read what I posted yesterday too. I guess I was referring to the entire relationship - not just where we are at now. I was thinking back on everything and wondering how he's truly ever been my friend. You're right though... the dynamic between men and women in friendships is very different. I feel like I'm always concerned with how he's doing and what's going on with him but I'm not sure the feeling is mutual. It probably is to some extent. He has some idea about the pain and frustration he has caused because I have communicated it to him but he hasn't seen it with his eyes. I think the example that comes to mind is that he has had a physical ailment recently and has been in a lot of pain. I have asked many times how he is, how he's feeling, what the doctor said etc. I have had something going on with me physically as well and he didn't ask one time how it was or how I was feeling. I know that seems like a very small thing but it's just an example. At the same time if I called him and asked him for help with something he would do all that he could to help me. So I'm not really sure what I'm saying other than to say he has so much going on with himself that he just doesn't have much leftover energy for anything else. I also am struggling because I haven't pulled away as much as I've needed to. He's texted every day and I have replied. I've known in my head that I needed to have the conversation with him that I can't do this anymore but I just haven't yet. I guess I've been feeling like an ostrich, putting my head in the sand, and hoping that he would just stop contacting me and it would be done. I know that's stupid. I know. I just haven't had the mental energy to tell him it's over. Part of me probably also knows that once I have that conversation I have to follow through because then it really will be over. Sorry, just venting a lot right now.

I struggle so much with putting myself first. SO MUCH. I really need to get myself together because this situation is not bringing anything healthy into my life. Right now, it only feels hurtful. I'm struggling because I just don't know how to get out of it - what to say, what to do. It was almost better when he had decided it was too much. Now that he's back I just don't even know what to say or do to end it so I can move on even though that is what I want to do and know what needs to happen. I'm really having a difficult week. It also sucks because I know that he is really trying to be what he thinks I need/want him to be.

I know my post is all over the place. I'm so sorry!

March 21, 2019

@LauraXX
I was wondering how you were doing with everything since it had been a while since you posted. How did you guys leave it after spending the night together?

Yeah, he reached out again after that 'incident'. At first I was so mad that I didn't reply for a while. But we eventually started talking again, he apologized (semi-good excuse), and last week I decided that it was time to get in the car and drive down to see him and sort things out.

We didn't really discuss the next steps though. I think we were both aware of the huge elephant in the room, but it was nice to just be together again after 4 months and in the end... we just didn't address it. He will be spending the next weekend (not the upcoming one, but the one after) at my place, so I guess we'll just keep seeing each other from time to time and see where this goes. A week ago I would have said that I'm only willing to do that if he changed his mind about the whole commitment issue. But right now I have the feeling that we're basically starting from scratch anyway and I have to figure out if I even want that with him after everything that has happened.

Yup, I'm actively dating. There's one guy I'm going out with about once a week and he reminds me of Nolanola's date. He's 33 (7 years younger than me), completely different lifestyle....not really a potential boyfriend. But it's nice to hang out with him and on some strange level I actually enjoy the fact that I'm not head over heels for him. That usually happens so fast for me and then the whole overthinking / overanalyzing machine kicks in. That hasn't happened yet and it makes communicating with him so easy and relaxed. I'm also still active on Tinder and there is the occasional first date.

So, at least on a superficial level, it's all going very well at the moment. But of course I'm still longing for a deeper connection with somebody (have been single for far too long) and the next heartbreak is probably just around the corner

Ugh, NC never gets any easier

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