was judas really innocent?

[barrabas]

Has anyone EVER heard of someone name their kid Judas? I havent, and why? Because he betrayed jesus christ and is seen as the biggest traitor and scumbag to have ever walked the planet. So his name is synonymous with dog crap for the rest of eternity i guess.

 

But why is this? My case is that judas didnt have any choice. he was a pawn in a divinely inspired plan toward the crucifiction of jesus. jesus KNEW he would be betrayed----he KNew Peter would dent him 3 times, so Peter had no choice either.

 

Even if you are a true free willer, there has to be devine intervention at times such as this. what if jesus had gathered up 12 hardcore al-queda type believers who all exercised their free will and would have fought to the death for him? things might have been different.

 

i need to flesh out this argument because i am thinking of naming my next dog Judas!!!!!! But i dont want to give him a complex!

 

What about Hitler?? ever heard of anyone who has that last name in the US? NO, its right up there with judas. What if he was used in some devine way like Judas? God always screwed the jews over in the old test.---40 years in the wilderness, raining frogs and such,.....maybe old adolph was just another pawn in some weird plan of Gods? it WAS amazing how this nobody corporal all of a sudden rose to power----maybe he unknowingly had a god connection.

 

just waiting on a hurricane and wondering.........later

[Exactly]

I see it like you do. The battle has already been won, but the "moves" have yet to be made. Just like with a game of chess.

 

Peter and Judas both did as it was said they would. If they hadn't, then "God" would have been a liar. The whole purpose of Jesus coming was to "die for us" that we might be saved. What if Judas hadn't "betrayed" him? It would have hindered the PURPOSE of Christ.

 

What if Peter had not denied him? Heck, he might have been killed and I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't give him faith enough to walk on water only to make him so weak as to fear a man. So, both Judas and Peter played "their part" upon the chess board. One might be a rook, another a bishop or knight...but what game could ever hope to be won without the "little pawns".

 

Free will? Who really knows? What has more power; the player or the game itself?

 

Give "judas" a bone for me, will ya?

[ButtonPusher]

Yeah certain names have been destroyed by the bastards of history. I mean, who can call their kid joe stalin now? A perfectly good name, or mr mao? Its just not fair. And god knows what would happen if you called your kid satan.

[quankanne]

gee, I think "dogzilla" has a much better ring to it. And think of all the chicks who'll be won over by your amazing sense of humor ....

[CHAZ87]

Yeah certain names have been destroyed by the bastards of history. I mean, who can call their kid joe stalin now? A perfectly good name, or mr mao? Its just not fair. And god knows what would happen if you called your kid satan.

 

My thoughts exactly. I couldn't have phrased it better. :confused: :confused:

[barrabas]

ok. so i'm naming the dog judas adolf satan---he is an AKC dog so has to have 3 names in order to be registered. I will call him SPOT for short.

 

but, in a religious vain, is it really these guys fault? what if they were only a pawn, one of god's patsies like lee harvey oswald? if god uses people in certain ways, and you believe this, then how can these guys be held accountable for their actions?

 

whats in a name anyway, is what i say!!! listening to our own press, i guess BUSH will be next, as Clinton is in cetain circles!!!

[bunnzy]

That is an interesting point. What if Eve hadnt eaten of the fruit? Her and Adam would still be in a state of bliss, childless and none of us would exist. They were tempted by satan to disobey a law they eventually would have to disobey to allow them to have children. 'Multipy and replenish the earth' was a law they could not fulfil until they were cast out of the garden of Eden.

 

I believe that Judas actually thought Christ would save himself, and then everybody would know that he was the Savior.

 

Its funny that Satan tempts people to do things that cause Gods plan to work perfectly.

[quankanne]

I don't believe God "uses" people like pawns because he gives them free will to do whatever the heck they please, without exception. Mary didn't have to say yes to bearing the Christ-child, Hitler didn't have to be such a creep, my former BiL didn't have to kick my dog for stealing the sausages off the grill ... all those choices were made through the execution of free will. To say that any of those folks were the "pawn" of God is painting him as a puppeteer who has complete control over mankind. Which he doesn't, based on the many different responses to his presence.

 

in an old, old thread about the movie "The Passion of the Christ," a poster raised the thought that maybe Judas didn't realize that his act was going to mean the death of Jesus, just getting roughed up and run out of town for inciting people, based on the thought that after he turned Jesus over, he had second thoughts, then killed himself when he learned of the crucifixion ...

 

hey -- if your dog is a pedigree, why don't you give him a really redneck name like Billy-bob "Bubba" Bocephus, some sure to make the bluebloods faint at the sound of it ... heee hee ....

[barrabas]

good points about free will vs. determinism. but when you read the new testament (KJV), to paraphrase jesus when he said he knew who would betray him, he basically said that this man would be damned to hell for eternity. So what if GOD knows the ending, but he really doesnt know exactly who will do the deed? he just knows the general plan and knows the limits of man.

 

but the point about eve is also correct. God supposedly knows all, and he knew that satan was down there tempting eve, and she would give in. he KNEW what they had done. But if we are all pawns, just pushed around by a supreme being, then we really arent personally responsible for anything. this seems like a cop out.

 

but if we have free will, then who knows what will happen? what if all the diciples had never betrayed him and things would have been different? maybe its a little of both--like a baseball game; god knows who wins, but he doesnt know or care that babe ruth will hit a homer or not. things happen eventually in their own time. but the argument is still circular.

 

but i often hear the dicotomy of these concepts from church goers who dont realize the irony of their own statements. how many times have you heard " johhny is doing drugs and he's broke and its only his fault because his parents have given him everything, yada yada..(free will)......then someone gets killed in a car wreck, and they say"when your time is up, its up and there is nothing you can do about it". (determinism)

 

but it seems that judas will not get a break from what jesus told him about the one who will betray him. he is screwed with no chance of parole. some say he took the money, and others say the devil forced him to do it. i guess god made him the supreme example of rats for ratting out his only son. later

[No name]

I have a question..People are celebrating free will like its a wonderful gift yet the whole idea is really absurd when you stop to think about it. The bottom line according to the Bible, is that if you dont do God's will you go to hell. To be happy about that is like if someone puts a shotgun to your head and says, take one more stop and I will blow your head off, and you think Im still free to take a step if I want Ha Ha. Its absurd. To burn in hell forever is infinitely worse than having your head blown off. What value then does the free will really have? Its a sick joke. It would be better if God didnt give us free will. In fact I dont believe there is free will, nor can there ever be but thats a different argument.