A lesson

[Wallysbears]

Why can't you meet someone through this exclusive super car club?

[elaine567]

Why can't you meet someone through this exclusive super car club?

 

 

Not single, mostly men, and too old ie >40.

[ZA Dater]

Why can't you meet someone through this exclusive super car club?

 

No single people.

[Blanco]

Really boils down to the fact unless you have charm and charisma you may as well not bother because an authentic personality is frowned upon but a fake one is loved.

 

Yes, it's true that if you are authentically a downer, you will find it tough to attract women.

[ZA Dater]

Yes, it's true that if you are authentically a downer, you will find it tough to attract women.

 

Hence it is what it is. Not everyone can date there are lots who never find anyone at all, maybe I am one of them. I just don't see how people take being kicked in the face all the time and not question the entire system that's kicking them in the face.

[Garcon1986]

I have questioned the system but have in turn worked with it, to my advantage. I still am upset at all the nurses who reject me for not being their classic Southern Cowboy but I don't let it bother me anymore, I don't hold on to hate.

 

 

I can at least thank you ZA Dater for no longer being so extreme in your protests against women. I am glad we can agree on a small handful of things.

[Garcon1986]

I have been just as rejected as you are, as the Asian man desiring cute Caucasian ladies. I've just made the conscious choice to cater to what the modern woman wants, and now it's authentic. I started out being the grumbling stoneface just as you are, and I am currently where I am because I have just a little more determination than people like Ethanblack. I said that I will, under any cost, gain the knowledge in dating that American men instinctively know because they have been dating since they were 13. I succeeded mostly; I'm mostly caught up with dating men in my age group.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Garcon1986

[ZA Dater]

I have been just as rejected as you are, as the Asian man desiring cute Caucasian ladies. I've just made the conscious choice to cater to what the modern woman wants, and now it's authentic. I started out being the grumbling stoneface just as you are, and I am currently where I am because I have just a little more determination than people like Ethanblack. I said that I will, under any cost, gain the knowledge in dating that American men instinctively know because they have been dating since they were 13. I succeeded mostly; I'm mostly caught up with dating men in my age group.

 

 

 

My view is I cannot ever catch up and frankly I am not sure I want to be like these other guys either, if that what I need to be like to date then yeah I am not so sure.

 

 

Determination I don't lack but its not blind determination, I like to feel that I am getting somewhere but nothing with dating is better now than it was 5 years ago even though I am a better person than I was and for that I probably need to thank some misguided belief one can win someone over by self improvement.

 

 

Because I have mostly constructed a life around work and my hobbies I need someone who can fit into that, which is why K and I get along, we are both motivated, both walked alternative roads in life, both decided to be different and not follow the crowd. Which is why I don't work with miss model who has spent most of her life being adored by all and sundry, though I must say this, many models are chronically lonely because they don't attract anything more than the superficial, I know this because many have told me so.

 

 

That's the thing I have seen a vast spectrum of life, from the incredibly wealthy to the poorest of the poor and people remain people but how many people have seen such a spectrum. Which is why I get so irritated when I go on dates and find the person sitting opposite me is so apathetic. Other guys would dismiss this and focus on getting her into bed but it really does grip me enough to render the person unattractive. Maybe I am wrong?

 

 

Every single date will be judged against the interactions I have with K, I cant win her over, its a fanciful though but in reality impossible, because I wouldn't know how and I would be playing a game where I would likely loose. Even now I can sit with her and chat for hours easily, I cannot seem to find them anywhere else, no matter how I search. I get the attention I never get anywhere else.

 

 

Yes, I don't see her that often but when I do I am reminded how good things can be and then I go on some date and I am once again reminded how bad things can be.

 

 

FYI I don't walk around with a stone face all the time, I can make people laugh, I can make fun of myself, actually have no issue laughing at myself but the problem is I don't meet anyone interested in me. I don't have the confidence either, well some of the time I do, other times not.

 

 

When I look at it objectively what have these dates offered me, how have they benefitted me? When I first joined this forum people told me to look around at people who were successful and I did but I never liked what I saw and I still don't. When people deal with me what they see is basically what they get, I am not in the business of spinning half truths and when I looked at these successful daters the level of half truths and blatant lies employed to try and sell themselves to these women was astonishing.

 

 

So I tried that too for a while with no better result and at the expense of feeling morally disgusted that I had sunk to somewhere I didn't want to be.

 

 

The ironic thing about this is people that know me always comment on my selflessness and my ability to take an interest in others and their wellbeing.

 

 

I hold myself to that moral standard of trying to positively influence people and to be a trusted confidant.

 

 

So yes I suppose one can make the game work but at what cost and to what benefit?

 

 

Do I really get better benefits than I already have? From time to time I get to spend time with someone I do get along really well with, can tell anything, understands me, treats me well, I get to buy her things, she gives me things.

 

 

Versus getting into something with someone I don't have that common ground/intellectual connection with but who is single. I am just not seeing much of an upside.

 

 

That's the point here, how much of an upside is there above what I already have some of the time but not often enough?

 

 

I am not a simple guy, it takes people a long time to get to know me but universally most become quite fond of me in the context that we interact.

[Garcon1986]

The potential benefits are:

 

 

1. You eventually find genuine female connection

2. You decide to try for a fake female connection, like with a swinger or escort just for the experience.

 

 

Women at the core require that they feel good and feel natural around you. It's not in a man's nature to do this except with those who learned this early. Also women require some level of hotness, and you are absolutely right, hot people have life easier in general - but women allow for things like personality to compensate (which was the path I took).

 

 

You can either make an adult choice to be a celibate priest. Or, get back on the journey you originally started but fell short on because the punishment was too harsh.

[guest569]

Because it doesn't interest me. I am serious, not fun, not conformist. Really not sure why I even bother.

 

Nothing wrong with any of that ZA. This shouldn’t hold you back. Everyone has a different idea of fun. I doubt that you’re 0% fun and 100% serious. I recall you wanted a partner who has a sense of humour like yours. I actually don’t like people who are not serious enough and who are always light hearted and funny, it gets tiring.

[ZA Dater]

The potential benefits are:

 

 

1. You eventually find genuine female connection

2. You decide to try for a fake female connection, like with a swinger or escort just for the experience.

 

 

Women at the core require that they feel good and feel natural around you. It's not in a man's nature to do this except with those who learned this early. Also women require some level of hotness, and you are absolutely right, hot people have life easier in general - but women allow for things like personality to compensate (which was the path I took).

 

 

You can either make an adult choice to be a celibate priest. Or, get back on the journey you originally started but fell short on because the punishment was too harsh.

 

 

 

Here I disagree the punishment wasn't harsh there was simply not positive at all about the journey, no "well this is better than before lets keep going" it was just bad to worse to bad to worse. Even when I did step out of my zone it wasn't much better.

 

 

In advertising a product is only successful when targeted at its intended market or the product is successful because it caters to a wide market. I don't cater to that wide market and I have no idea who my target market is because I cannot decide what is "easier" looks or personality or both but all of those combinations seem equally impossible.

 

 

Sure, women want to feel good, but does that mean the guy must feel like he has to do EVERYTHING?

 

 

My other problem is I will not settle for what I do not want, I have been on too many dates where I was just underwhelmed and YES I did smile and YES I did laugh on those dates. Women cannot just arrive and then do nothing, offer up some decent conversation at least.

 

 

It just seems to me all the people I actually end up liking never like me or are simply never single or are simply unattainable. This basically fits into my entire life approach of wanting the most impossible hardest to get things I can which means I am constantly trying to beat the odd on most fronts, the difference is unlike dating I can measure progress in those areas.

 

 

Whether a fake idea is the way to go is a mute point, I have paid for dates before and while in some respects they were better in many respects they were not. The better aspect was I had some choice as to who I wanted to date, which I usually don't have.

 

 

I have some down time this festive season, I'll go out, to places I perhaps wouldn't normally and see what happens but honestly not sure I can fit in in those places.

[ZA Dater]

I don't think anything - I realise that you are more than the sum of your posts but I can only base myself on your posts because I have nothing else to go on.

 

You don't want to conform? Totally fine, neither do I. But you seem to conflate 'conforming' with meeting people half-way. If you are trying and it's jiving, it's not meant to be. That's all.

 

I am beyond picky myself (zero physical prerequites, I have a non-negociable list of character traits and values instead) so in some way, I get where you are coming from.

 

My real life personality doesn't really translate well in a forum so on that too, I have some sympathy for you.

 

Where we differ is on attitude. Plenty of people who 'don't conform' find themselves in fulfilling relationships (no settling, no reaching, no desperation, no forcing themselves) - if they can, so can you.

 

Sure there is a little bit of luck and patience involved, sure it may not happen - all you can do is keep hoping it works out, despite the odds.

 

There is no answer to your 'why'; if you don't want to change, stay as you are and hope it's enough.

 

 

I'd rather be the person I want to be, which I believe to be a good person than the person society seems to mandate I be in order to date someone. Time and time again being ones own person is hugely negative to dating prospects. Unless of course you are stunning and have people falling over you, then its perfectly ok.

 

 

I do however consider myself lucky to have some inspiration in terms of the seemingly unobtainable because while not gettable for me I know there are some great ladies out there who would probably wow me.

[Garcon1986]

Well you actually smiled during a date? That's incredible. You come across extremely grumpy here.

You've discounted the thing called dating indicators of interest - putting in those social indicators of interest during a date such as arm touching, hugging, staring into the eyes, etc etc. Women are also quite conceivably losing interest in you because you project an air of lack of interest (they might even be thinking you are gay).

 

Again thanks for no longer being so extremist in your views against women.

[ZA Dater]

Well you actually smiled during a date? That's incredible. You come across extremely grumpy here.

You've discounted the thing called dating indicators of interest - putting in those social indicators of interest during a date such as arm touching, hugging, staring into the eyes, etc etc. Women are also quite conceivably losing interest in you because you project an air of lack of interest (they might even be thinking you are gay).

 

Again thanks for no longer being so extremist in your views against women.

 

That's a fundamental problem, how to show interest? Admittedly almost none of the dates I have had interested me at all.

[elaine567]

Have you ever seen a TV programme called "First Dates" Ch4 UK - some of it is on YouTube though I am not sure if you will be able to view it in SA.

Real life couples in a restaurant having a first date... sometimes it works sometimes it is a disaster.

[Garcon1986]

On a first date women reflect your body language back at you.

 

 

I would watch videos of first dates on youtube. Granted they are a bit artificial because you have a film camera in your face, but at least you get to analyze what it means to show interested body language on a date.

 

 

Again you don't have to be the do everything man and just have the woman follow. However, typically the woman will need you to start showing interest and then she will reflect it back at you (since most of us aren't Ronaldinho or Brad Pitt ;P ).

[ZA Dater]

On a first date women reflect your body language back at you.

 

 

I would watch videos of first dates on youtube. Granted they are a bit artificial because you have a film camera in your face, but at least you get to analyze what it means to show interested body language on a date.

 

 

Again you don't have to be the do everything man and just have the woman follow. However, typically the woman will need you to start showing interest and then she will reflect it back at you (since most of us aren't Ronaldinho or Brad Pitt ;P ).

 

 

 

Here is something I will admit, I can usually tell via body language how well its going BUT by that point I am usually not interested anyway.

 

 

I hate using K as an example because I know what Elaine is going to say...nevertheless with her I have an un risky opportunity to try things when it comes to body language, the rest just works so I don't need to worry about getting the intellect to work because it does. I have noticed if I do certain things, hard to describe but even if I look at her in a certain way its sometimes reciprocated.

 

 

Where it always falls flat for me is intellectual connection, its just never there on any of these dates, I don't feel drawn in, I try and draw them out but it never quite works, inevitably its becomes tiring trying to keep a conversation going, maybe I am one of the few guys who actually finds this stuff important, I don't know.

 

 

Honestly its that interaction I really want.

[chillii]

Nothing wrong with any of that ZA. This shouldn’t hold you back. Everyone has a different idea of fun. I doubt that you’re 0% fun and 100% serious. I recall you wanted a partner who has a sense of humour like yours. I actually don’t like people who are not serious enough and who are always light hearted and funny, it gets tiring.

 

 

Yeah look this whole funny bs all over the internet these days , is just that , bs.

l'm not in the US or SA , so maybe it really is as parrot and sheep as all that there now, l dunno.

Or maybe it's just that l'm probably a lot older than a lot of the younger people on the net seem to be caught up in the whole making people laugh bs but all l see is just some idiot fad that for some stupid reason, internet wise anyway, it seems to be the be all and end all.

But life's not like that and people aren't like that, not here anyway.

There's still a 1000 different personalities that find their like with someone else.

 

Whenever l was single it was actually serious stuff , depth , between us, that got me involved with anyone, not some make them laugh bullshyt.

When you had fun or clicked in that way it was natural not some fake fkg fad.

Nothing wrong with a good laugh but l agree and people carrying on all the time bore me to tears too.

Life not like that for most, people aren't like that for most. l dunno where all this bs is coming from.

 

ps, not to say that some couldn't just use a bit of lightening up though , just for their own good and beinifits in life yaknow, and not to say that it wouldn't help a bit with their general interactions with people or in this case the women. But there's a difference .

Edited December 18, 2018 by chillii

[Garcon1986]

I have the same problem in the sense that I have enough past-times to fill the careers of several people, so I'm viewed as the super uber nerd amongst some classical Southern people. It's hard for me to connect to them on multiple levels.

 

 

I am on the search for people with intellectual past-times as well. Have you considered trying meeting the people who work at Women on Wheels Magazine at 21 St John’s Street in Capetown? You've got to search for clubs containing intellectual people to pre-filter.

[chillii]

ZA , what's the thing with K anyway, l asked you about 10 pages back and you didn't answer ?

Did you guys ever get together or is she with someone or she has kids or something ?

 

When you said you wouldn't know how to make it happen with her , sounds like she's single .

Maybe she'd like something too .

[ZA Dater]

ZA , what's the thing with K anyway, l asked you about 10 pages back and you didn't answer ?

Did you guys ever get together or is she with someone or she has kids or something ?

 

When you said you wouldn't know how to make it happen with her , sounds like she's single .

Maybe she'd like something too .

 

 

 

The fundamental problem is she isn't single. The other issue is I really value the friendship we have. Granted its not the kind of friendship where I see her every weekend.

 

 

I tried to date her once before and made a complete mess of it so in that respect she knows I like her. I bought her a really over the top gift to end the year and again her reaction was what I was hoping to get, she was really thrilled with it. How much she reads into my actions toward her I don't know but I try make those actions say "I like you" without actually saying "I like you" verbally.

 

 

She reads me very well so I'd be surprised if she doesn't see this. Or she simply uses me and loves the attention I lavish on her.

 

 

Thing is I like the attention she gives me so its a give take scenario and its this attention I keep trying to find on dates but never really seem to find.

[ZA Dater]

I have the same problem in the sense that I have enough past-times to fill the careers of several people, so I'm viewed as the super uber nerd amongst some classical Southern people. It's hard for me to connect to them on multiple levels.

 

 

I am on the search for people with intellectual past-times as well. Have you considered trying meeting the people who work at Women on Wheels Magazine at 21 St John’s Street in Capetown? You've got to search for clubs containing intellectual people to pre-filter.

 

 

 

Funny you mention that I tried with two ladies working there, one a few years ago and the other recently but she really was not attractive to me.

 

 

Have you had that connection before? Do you think having experienced that you become a bit more expectant when it comes to future dates?

 

 

Also problematic for me is when I sit down with someone I try and learn about them as a person but some people and say this with the greatest of respect don't seem to have a lot to talk about. I can sit and talk about pretty much anything to lesser or greater degrees so I try and vary the conversation but do you think there is a point where they should actually show they are interested?

[Garcon1986]

Experience has taught me how to respond to women's emotional tests, such as "honey, do I need to wear makeup?" As a 20 year old I just viewed such tests with the utmost derision and resentment. Now I can respond fairly calmly. For the initial dating period, it's taught me how to maintain my light humor and humorous demeanor. I have an unusual variation on the resting bitch face problem - I have involuntary smirks unless the other person is supremely well accomplished, whether I am disapproving of the person or not. I've tried to work on a calm face in the mirror and tone down the involuntary smirks.

 

You've been steadfast in your requirement in physical looks. That's ok that you don't want to marry single mothers or obese women. How about you let more personality shine through and let that contribute some attractiveness? Women, just like men, will reflect your body language back at you for most of the first date. Let those introverts shine through, who are naturally shy. Just like any other person, you won't necessarily find a conversational topic in which you can talk till the dawn rises the next day within the first date.

[Garcon1986]

And you know? As I look back along the years, I turned down several women involuntarily who were rather good looking, without knowing it, in college. Biggest failure in my dating game.

[ZA Dater]

Experience has taught me how to respond to women's emotional tests, such as "honey, do I need to wear makeup?" As a 20 year old I just viewed such tests with the utmost derision and resentment. Now I can respond fairly calmly. For the initial dating period, it's taught me how to maintain my light humor and humorous demeanor. I have an unusual variation on the resting bitch face problem - I have involuntary smirks unless the other person is supremely well accomplished, whether I am disapproving of the person or not. I've tried to work on a calm face in the mirror and tone down the involuntary smirks.

 

You've been steadfast in your requirement in physical looks. That's ok that you don't want to marry single mothers or obese women. How about you let more personality shine through and let that contribute some attractiveness? Women, just like men, will reflect your body language back at you for most of the first date. Let those introverts shine through, who are naturally shy. Just like any other person, you won't necessarily find a conversational topic in which you can talk till the dawn rises the next day within the first date.

 

 

 

Rarely do introverts display confidence and that's very high up my list of attractive qualities so yes while I have been on dates with some Id say that they don't really work for me.

 

 

I suppose the converse problem with confident ladies is you need to be assertive. I actually learnt with K the more assertive the dynamic changes and has changed slightly.

 

 

Looks actually don't rate that highly BUT a pretty face does and yes obese doesn't work for me but overall I wouldn't say looks are the be all and end all for me.

 

 

Yes, I had a few opportunities while studying, bearing in mind I did most of my studies correspondence with no lectures but was too clueless to take any advantage of the opportunities.

 

 

Just today I was looking around some OLD sites and very little appealed to me at all, in this respect I think you are more fortunate Stateside because OLD is not seem as being taboo like it is here, Tinder is deemed socially ok here but anything else you get the strangest of looks.

 

 

Constantly I am torn between trying to find physical experience versus the want for intellectual connection, to the point where I have worked out I need the latter to want the former.