A lesson

[chillii]

lt's about the whole box of rocks l dunno how the hell you somehow narrow it all down to just one very shallow alone thing like looks.Try lasting with somebody just on looks see how that works out.

Didn't work for me at 16 17 and sure wouldn't now.

You don't know what these couples you see have, no one knows that unless they're particularly close.

 

Don't you have malls and streets there with 100s of couples of every shape size nationality and personality walking about and most average or way below if anything if you wanna talk looks.

Sit down and look at real people real relationships as a lot here have suggested to you dunno how many times.

Edited December 15, 2018 by chillii

[elaine567]

lt's about the whole box of rocks l dunno how the hell you somehow narrow it all down to just one very shallow alone thing like looks.Try lasting with somebody just on looks see how that works out.

Didn't work for me at 16 17 and sure wouldn't now.

You don't know what these couples you see have, no one knows that unless they're particularly close.

 

Don't you have malls and streets there with 100s of couples of every shape size nationality and personality walking about and most average or way below if anything if you wanna talk looks.

Sit down and look at real people real relationships as a lot here have suggested to you dunno how many times.

 

 

Exactly.

Looks are very subjective too. We all have our own version of what ticks our boxes. Yes, we can appreciate a wonderful painting, a beautiful house but would we actually want to hang it our wall or live in it, probably not.

Real people are not perfect specimens, they do not tick all our boxes, but we usually know what we are looking for when we find it.

You have spent so much time analysing, your preconceived notions will preclude you from finding anyone.

Paralysis by analysis.

You need experience but you will never get experience if you turn down all offers of anything less than "perfect".

Catch 22.

[ZA Dater]

Exactly.

Looks are very subjective too. We all have our own version of what ticks our boxes. Yes, we can appreciate a wonderful painting, a beautiful house but would we actually want to hang it our wall or live in it, probably not.

Real people are not perfect specimens, they do not tick all our boxes, but we usually know what we are looking for when we find it.

You have spent so much time analysing, your preconceived notions will preclude you from finding anyone.

Paralysis by analysis.

You need experience but you will never get experience if you turn down all offers of anything less than "perfect".

Catch 22.

 

Then so be it. I am once again being told by the 37yo that I must like her and so on and so forth. Reality is I don't, the fact she will sleep with a guy she hasn't met does not appeal.

 

So yes even I got chased by people I have no interest in. All I see with her are complications I do not need or want.

 

If someone that does wow me comes along great if not well then so be it.

 

Why do I need experience, I thought it didn't matter?

 

I have my friend zones who offer me to me than any date has in the sense there is actually two way communication, I'd date either of them but seeing as I can't I'll settle for next best thing.

[ZA Dater]

Exactly.

 

Real people are not perfect specimens, they do not tick all our boxes, but we usually know what we are looking for when we find it.

22.

 

Which I haven't. Well anyone who is single anyway. The vast majority of the people I have met did not interest me at all.

 

The same was is true of me I suppose. Oh well.

 

All I am doing is trying to find the equivalent of what I like which is impossible but it's better than doing nothing.

[5x5]

Why do I need experience, I thought it didn't matter?

 

You've never had sex, you've never dated anyone in an ongoing manner. You've never snogged-pashed, deeply kissed a woman. You've never fondled a woman, you've never had these things done to you. You've never gone steady with someone, you've never courted a woman with ongoing dates. You've never walked arm in arm, snuggled into each other, holding hands and all the rest.

 

Just as you've never gone on holidays with a romantic partner, done day to day shopping and living with them. Clean the toilet they've used, helped them when they're vomiting, and all the rest. Nor have you had arguments with a romantic partner. Nor fallen out with them and a kaleidoscope of other things almost all people by your age have done.

 

Considering the above, I encourage you to think about it and get back to us. With an explanation of why you think experience would help you a lot, or why you think it doesn't matter and wouldn't help you.

[ZA Dater]

You've never had sex, you've never dated anyone in an ongoing manner. You've never snogged-pashed, deeply kissed a woman. You've never fondled a woman, you've never had these things done to you. You've never gone steady with someone, you've never courted a woman with ongoing dates. You've never walked arm in arm, snuggled into each other, holding hands and all the rest.

 

Just as you've never gone on holidays with a romantic partner, done day to day shopping and living with them. Clean the toilet they've used, helped them when they're vomiting, and all the rest. Nor have you had arguments with a romantic partner. Nor fallen out with them and a kaleidoscope of other things almost all people by your age have done.

 

Considering the above, I encourage you to think about it and get back to us. With an explanation of why you think experience would help you a lot, or why you think it doesn't matter and wouldn't help you.

 

Nothing to think about. Couldn't find anyone I wanted and even if I did having no experience would sink it anyway. So what's the point, am told not to judge and yet....

 

Dating someone for the sake of experience is disrespectful to that person and completely unfair to them.

 

I don't think it would make any difference barring perhaps ticking off a few things on the to do list of life. As someone told me I am a missfit so would be stupid not to just own that and wear it.

 

Went out today, tried to smile but most were too busy texting to even notice.

 

What you did there was just remind me what I dont have and what sometimes keeps me awake.

[Garcon1986]

I think your previous attitude of making baby steps is something to be treasured ZA Dater. You haven't really given up, you are just frustrated at women.

 

I oppose your viewpoint that dating people for the experience is disrespectful to the other person. You never know what they have to offer until you see them. If what you said was true, everybody who ever dumped someone would be guilty of intentional disrespect of the other party, which is not factually accurate.

 

Again let the little crack of light shine through. There's a little bit of you that still wants to gain social skills. The rest of you is an 800 lb gorilla trying to block off all avenues of help despite really asking for the help.

[ZA Dater]

I think your previous attitude of making baby steps is something to be treasured ZA Dater. You haven't really given up, you are just frustrated at women.

 

I oppose your viewpoint that dating people for the experience is disrespectful to the other person. You never know what they have to offer until you see them. If what you said was true, everybody who ever dumped someone would be guilty of intentional disrespect of the other party, which is not factually accurate.

 

Again let the little crack of light shine through. There's a little bit of you that still wants to gain social skills. The rest of you is an 800 lb gorilla trying to block off all avenues of help despite really asking for the help.

 

I am not interested in dating people I don't find attractive. It's really that simple which includes personality but if the others are to believed nobody wants to date inexperienced me anyway so.

[Garcon1986]

I don't know if you have this expression in South Africa, but why do you insist on putting yourself in a catch 22? Why do you insist on putting yourself in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario?

 

Why do you insist on detailing over and over again how you have been unfairly treated?

 

Why do you insist on rejecting 100% of women that don't meet 100% of your standards, and as a consequence losing out on a chance to become less socially awkward? I chat up really unattractive people all the time in the hopes that I may learn something new about social niceties.

 

Why do you deny that there may be an opportunity to learn something new about subtle social cues, in those women who may be 99% of your internal checklist?

 

And where does all this energy come from, to be so extremist in your views? Do you drink Red Bull before you write on this forum? To repeat this for the umpteenth time, you sound like an American Republican denying climate change and the need to protect the environment for future generations.

[ZA Dater]

I don't know if you have this expression in South Africa, but why do you insist on putting yourself in a catch 22? Why do you insist on putting yourself in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario?

 

Why do you insist on detailing over and over again how you have been unfairly treated?

 

Why do you insist on rejecting 100% of women that don't meet 100% of your standards, and as a consequence losing out on a chance to become less socially awkward? I chat up really unattractive people all the time in the hopes that I may learn something new about social niceties.

 

Why do you deny that there may be an opportunity to learn something new about subtle social cues, in those women who may be 99% of your internal checklist?

 

And where does all this energy come from, to be so extremist in your views? Do you drink Red Bull before you write on this forum? To repeat this for the umpteenth time, you sound like an American Republican denying climate change and the need to protect the environment for future generations.

 

 

 

Its not catch 22 by simply choosing not to go out with people I don't find attractive, if anything I'd say that's actually pretty normal and dare I say conformist.

 

 

Never said I was unfairly treated and never intended to imply that either. The world puts huge premium on looks and I put huge premium on other things, ironically I can find neither looks or any of those other things either, well very rarely do I find them.

 

 

I'd love to know how spending time with someone I am not attracted and don't like is suppose to help me? Honestly I am not that desperate. What have you learnt chatting up those people?

 

 

Where does it come from, it comes from questioning what people perceive as normal. Do I think I can date, not really. I am pretty honest about that in person when asked. Can I be a great friend, definitely. Would I like to experience some of the things, yes sure, am I prepared to compromise heavily to experience them, no.

 

 

I know what I want is out there, its just incredibly rare. Ever asked why the guy must approach? Why cant the lady approach? Why is this?

 

 

Start questioning the fundamentals and you begin to realise how absurd the entire concept is. One of the best dates I had: I paid her. Why was it the best: she could speak, had opinions and actually took an interest in me. One of the warmest kindest people I have met: a Hungarian stripper. Both these people are judged on what they do rather than what they are. Why?

 

 

As people what makes them inferior to "miss I sit at a coffee shop looking down my nose at guys".

 

 

As guys we are expected to do everything, yet my experience is few ladies actually offer up much at all. Is it so difficult to ask someone to ask me a question? Take some interest! Is it so hard for them to have an opinion, some sort of interest.

 

 

I once went out with one who had spent 4 months in a mental asylum, she was bats but at least offered up something conversationally.

 

 

I spent most of the day doing what the forum told me to do, went out, tried to smile even winked, tried to make eye contact and absolutely nothing at all, granted all seemed to have bf's so perhaps that's not so surprising.

 

 

Sorry but I cannot accept I must make all of the effort and they make none.

 

 

But hey at 34 I have already been told my lack of experience will red flag me to everyone so why even bother!

[Garcon1986]

You've dodged my question just like a good politician so I will ask you again: You've explicitly said that you want to date people who are attractive to you. I have no problem with that. However, you have low social experience and at the same time refuse to chat with a wider group of people to gain social experience.

 

Why the steadfast denial of your opportunity to gain more experience? Why do you consider speaking with a wider group of people so morally beneath you?

[ZA Dater]

You've dodged my question just like a good politician so I will ask you again: You've explicitly said that you want to date people who are attractive to you. I have no problem with that. However, you have low social experience and at the same time refuse to chat with a wider group of people to gain social experience.

 

Why the steadfast denial of your opportunity to gain more experience? Why do you consider speaking with a wider group of people so morally beneath you?

 

 

 

On any given day I deal with people from all backgrounds so not sure what the relevance of the question is? Low social experience? Again not sure where the comes from, is it because I don't drink, don't enjoy talking rugby with the "boys"? Don't enjoy bars or club?

 

 

Experience at what exactly?

 

 

People speak to me I am quite happy to have a conversation but from a date I want a bit more, really I am supposed to go there and try and woo her so the very least she can do is try and woo me. I can count on one had the number of times any date has made an effort to do that.

 

 

No I am never going to go up to some random person and start talking to her no. If I am spoken them sure but no, every time I have done that I have been rejected or the people were not friendly so why bother, no upside there.

 

 

If I cant date people attractive to me then friends with people I find attractive is the next best thing and I'd rather have that than trawl through yet more unexceptional dates.

[elaine567]

Experience at what exactly?

 

 

Already answered by 5x5.

You've never had sex, you've never dated anyone in an ongoing manner. You've never snogged-pashed, deeply kissed a woman. You've never fondled a woman, you've never had these things done to you. You've never gone steady with someone, you've never courted a woman with ongoing dates. You've never walked arm in arm, snuggled into each other, holding hands and all the rest.

 

Just as you've never gone on holidays with a romantic partner, done day to day shopping and living with them. Clean the toilet they've used, helped them when they're vomiting, and all the rest. Nor have you had arguments with a romantic partner. Nor fallen out with them and a kaleidoscope of other things almost all people by your age have done.

[Garcon1986]

The reason your dates don't make an effort to woo you is because you project a serious personality and standoffishness until the woman impresses you enough for you to relax and start having a true conversation. You also deny women opportunities to showcase themselves because your serious tone marks an attitude of across the board disapproval of anyone who doesn't check 100% of your boxes. That's the key. You will continue to get this result if you continue to bang your head against the wall. Women mirror the serious body language that you send towards them.

 

If you keep up this attitude, once an amazing woman comes by, you run a real risk of having the amazing woman slip through your fingers because of your lack of social experience and social banter in a dating context. The main difference here is a dating context does not expect you to bring your professional go get em, accomplish the mission attitude. What I want you to gain is the widely applicable skill of being a relaxing man, good conversationalist, able to draw out the woman from her shell, and show some approval of her so she isn't wondering what she did wrong to cause you to be so serious.

 

It's a reasonable request to expect a woman to put some effort into a relationship. It's not reasonable to be unwilling to work on a problem which you yourself identified is a social problem.

[ZA Dater]

The reason your dates don't make an effort to woo you is because you project a serious personality and standoffishness until the woman impresses you enough for you to relax and start having a true conversation. You also deny women opportunities to showcase themselves because your serious tone marks an attitude of across the board disapproval of anyone who doesn't check 100% of your boxes. That's the key. You will continue to get this result if you continue to bang your head against the wall. Women mirror the serious body language that you send towards them.

 

If you keep up this attitude, once an amazing woman comes by, you run a real risk of having the amazing woman slip through your fingers because of your lack of social experience and social banter in a dating context. The main difference here is a dating context does not expect you to bring your professional go get em, accomplish the mission attitude. What I want you to gain is the widely applicable skill of being a relaxing man, good conversationalist, able to draw out the woman from her shell, and show some approval of her so she isn't wondering what she did wrong to cause you to be so serious.

 

It's a reasonable request to expect a woman to put some effort into a relationship. It's not reasonable to be unwilling to work on a problem which you yourself identified is a social problem.

 

 

Once again the onus seems to be on me to do everything. So what you are saying is need to be the loud mouth life of the party, that's simply not my personality type.

 

 

 

If I so deny them this opportunity why have there been people who have impressed me?

 

 

FYI that has happened already so I live with that everyday.

 

 

I am not a relaxing person, I frequently work long hours (as I think you do based on what I have picked up about your profession), I have to deal with some pretty complicated situation and intense levels of multi tasking so no I am not a relaxed person.

 

 

Why do you think I go on so few dates, I am tired of wasting my time on people I don't see any potential with. I used to go on any date to try and gain so called "experience".

 

 

The other truth is I cannot find anyone single at all so I am always chasing what impossible/very difficult to get which isn't so bad because it mirrors most days of my life when I am trying to accomplish a balancing act of very difficult things.

 

 

You may not understand this but I'd rather chase an extremely difficult unlikely idea than take an easy idea simply because it is easy.

[ZA Dater]

Already answered by 5x5.

 

 

 

But I thought none of that was important? Much like I am told looks aren't important either, well its ok for ladies to find them important but I cant find them important.

 

 

Does any of that matter if the person is a good person, in my opinion it should not BUT much the same way no drinking is a red flag inexperience is one too. Directly driven by the media no less and the blanket sheep like acceptance and normalisation of mass media articles about sex and dating.

 

 

I just have to accept that at 34 my prospects are bleak to non existent in terms of getting what I want, so I either settle for something lesser or I settle for nothing at all.

[Garcon1986]

You've not quite read me right - I'm not saying you must put forth 100% of the effort. You are not unique in having a job with long work hours. Many different kinds of doctors have long work hours too and they don't all complain about not having time to do what they enjoy.

 

What I'm saying is that you are losing opportunities by being so serious. I oppose your view that you should stay a serious person and never let down your guard even just a little bit. The reason I oppose your viewpoint - it drives people away and destroys social opportunities you could have had. Nobody knows how many women you drive away from being so serious.

 

Do you derive some innate psychological gain by endlessly debating us and saying no to everybody?

 

You've illustrated many examples where women rejected you and you didn't know why. You are right that some women thought you weren't hot enough. That's hard to change. How about the others who thought you were too serious? That's something you can choose to improve, that you are refusing to choose to improve.

[Garcon1986]

You've equated us trying to show you how to do better in dating, to the need to be incredibly thick skinned when people try to point out a better way to do things. We perceive you as saying, I must bang my head against the wall, no matter what anyone says. Because your head is the hardest of all of us?

 

Why keep on doing an approach that hasn't been as successful as you have liked?

 

What positive things have you accomplished in the social scene by being steadfastly serious in every possible situation?

[chillii]

No bodies saying looks aren't important doesn't matter if your not attracted.

Of course it does but you even say all through this your convinced it's all just about looks, but looks alone won't make a relationship.

Same with personality you say it all comes down to one personality, life of the party but again ahh. there's 7billion personalities, all different , and guess what , 2 or 3 billion of then have partners.

Andddd, don't think anyone's saying be with someone you don't like can't talk too have nothing in common with, that won't work out either. But open yourself up more, your attitudes, views , feel. Sure you might not wanna marry her on site, so what. You get what you put out, stay open and give people a chance to at least get to know them and at least have a nice time.

The most unlikeliest people in this world can end up a real pleasure to meet and talk too, being open just opens more doors new people, people saying nice things instead of ohh he's a miserable bastard.

 

Put out some good vibe, then you can say she's not for me but nice. And who knows too, maybe you bump into her friend later but she is for you, and her friends said nice stuff about you, or her friend or her friend.

What goes around comes around.

 

You sound like your looking down your nose and closed on sight but people pick that shyt up on sight too before you even open your mouth, they aren't as stupid as you think.

Edited December 15, 2018 by chillii

[Garcon1986]

I spent my Christmas party making a table full of women laugh. I focused only on that skill. I've got five new friends who could potentially lead me to a date. I did it because I know I've got a few awkward points left over in my social game. I've now learned just a little bit more about the woman's mind.

 

Why is such an exercise beneath you?

[elaine567]

Truth is it is the whole package that women find attractive.

And it is your job to make yourself as attractive as possible, just as it is her job to do the same.

No-one want to date anyone who isn't trying, who has a resting bitch face and who refuses to engage as it is all so boring...

Women are looking for a good time, and why not?

They do not want to spend their life with some guy who is going to suck the life out of everything they attempt to do.

They want to see wit and fun and some joie de vivre, some oomph and spirit...

[ZA Dater]

You've not quite read me right - I'm not saying you must put forth 100% of the effort. You are not unique in having a job with long work hours. Many different kinds of doctors have long work hours too and they don't all complain about not having time to do what they enjoy.

 

What I'm saying is that you are losing opportunities by being so serious. I oppose your view that you should stay a serious person and never let down your guard even just a little bit. The reason I oppose your viewpoint - it drives people away and destroys social opportunities you could have had. Nobody knows how many women you drive away from being so serious.

 

Do you derive some innate psychological gain by endlessly debating us and saying no to everybody?

 

You've illustrated many examples where women rejected you and you didn't know why. You are right that some women thought you weren't hot enough. That's hard to change. How about the others who thought you were too serious? That's something you can choose to improve, that you are refusing to choose to improve.

 

I disagree simply because you cannot tell me every serious person cannot date. Also I don't think I have missed any opportunities at all to be honest, it's not like anyone is ever interested ?.

 

So yes I don't think I drove any away. Once again of all the dates I have had only perhaps 5 actually appealed to me. It's more case of not finding anyone I actually like.

 

The Tinder experiment just proved the point to me.

[ZA Dater]

I spent my Christmas party making a table full of women laugh. I focused only on that skill. I've got five new friends who could potentially lead me to a date. I did it because I know I've got a few awkward points left over in my social game. I've now learned just a little bit more about the woman's mind.

 

Why is such an exercise beneath you?

 

Tell me how you made them laugh, my humour is dry humour which most don't pick up.

[ZA Dater]

Truth is it is the whole package that women find attractive.

And it is your job to make yourself as attractive as possible, just as it is her job to do the same.

No-one want to date anyone who isn't trying, who has a resting bitch face and who refuses to engage as it is all so boring...

Women are looking for a good time, and why not?

They do not want to spend their life with some guy who is going to suck the life out of everything they attempt to do.

They want to see wit and fun and some joie de vivre, some oomph and spirit...

 

Then those some women must not complain when they are seen only as sex objects and the guys actually don't care one iota about them.

 

You just listed why I don't bother going out.

[Garcon1986]

You've partially missed my point - I am telling you that serious people have a much harder time in the dating scene.

 

I made the women laugh by talking about everything from making fun of Indian accents vs Chinese accents vs New Yorker accents, to making fun of southern food, to making self deprecating jokes, to impressing a young mother by speaking Farsi to her child (flirting aimed at the Mom), to telling a joke about counseling mice in eating healthier if they get diagnosed with high blood pressure.

 

I only achieved this level of humor by going out of my way, wasting people's time as you describe it, and practicing with the morbidly obese to the single mothers to the 50 year old smokers who have only 4 teeth left. I've reaped the fantastic reward of being more accepted by women and now I'm being chased by single attractive Indian women who are unfortunately not my type. But everyone is entitled to have a type.

 

Again, why is it beneath you to improve your humor? You've dodged my question multiple times so I will ask you again.