Still no dates.

[fredfub]

I strongly suggest that you make yourself intimately familiar with this site.

 

 

 

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

 

You’d think this is utter crap but unfortunately more women than you think respond to it. I don’t get why.

[alphamale]

I mean, despite allegedly being attractive and dressing well I've never received any attention in those environments, so seems a bit pointless really.

 

alcohol actually makes it HARDER to meet chicks in bars and nightclubs. also, the vast majority of men strike out in these types of venues.

[alphamale]

You’d think this is utter crap but unfortunately more women than you think respond to it. I don’t get why.

 

of course women respond to it

[LightWave93]

alcohol actually makes it HARDER to meet chicks in bars and nightclubs. also, the vast majority of men strike out in these types of venues.

 

I go to uni and see men pull all the time, even without approaching. I don't accept the notion that the majority of men strike out, as I've witnessed the total opposite.

 

At the end of the day I just want to experience casual sex, dates, relationships etc. Not exactly a big ask, and I have the rest of my life in order. I've even so far as gone to abstain from porn / masturbation as it was getting me down knowing I probably won't get to experience such intimacy again.

 

I genuinely need help with this, but I honestly don't know where to start.

[LightWave93]

Any other advice?

[edgygirl]

I wonder if you have "masculine" energy. I remember at around age 20 I had a guy friend try to date me... He was super good looking, a good friend, and... I had ZERO attraction to him.

 

Men need a little "chutzpah", to be a little aggressive in pursuing women. He had such an energy that I only saw him as a friend. I'd say good guy energy, but it's not like I'm into jerks (never was) but I didn't feel him being a "male" towards me... if that makes sense.

 

I think in the future you should keep those messages you've sent on Tinder so we can analyze it. Your friends saying they were "fine" doesn't mean much. I am in my 40s (so not sure it resonates with your experience) but get at least a dozen matches and corresponding messages per week, and I select the men who are - witty, fun, and (after I determine I'm into them) yes... I select the one/s on the aggressive side regarding meeting. Who make solid plans within 2-3 days of chatting. The others, mostly, I discard. I have many options so have to be selective.

 

 

My points are - what is the energy you are exuding (in school, etc but also through messages)? And how exactly are you trying to lock in those dates when you do get online matches?

Edited January 4, 2019 by edgygirl

[LightWave93]

I think in the future you should keep those messages you've sent on Tinder so we can analyze it. Your friends saying they were "fine" doesn't mean much. I am in my 40s (so not sure it resonates with your experience) but get at least a dozen matches and corresponding messages per week, and I select the men who are - witty, fun, and (after I determine I'm into them) yes... I select the one/s on the aggressive side regarding meeting. Who make solid plans within 2-3 days of chatting. The others, mostly, I discard. I have many options so have to be selective.

 

I can't tell you what exactly was said in those messages because I don't remember, but I can try and provide you with an overview of how they went.

 

Firstly, my messages to women on dating sites are a bit hit-and-miss by default because I rely on what's in their profile as opposed to going with cheesy one-liners they've probably heard before. Sometimes there's nothing to go by so I stick with a simple "Hi x, how are you doing?" (which sometimes gets a response), sometimes there's something I can bounce a question of ("Wow, it seems you travel a lot, where's next on the agenda?"), and other times I can make a funny quip.

 

The success of these varies, but I'd argue that's the nature of dating apps in general. What I can tell you, is that I've had many a positive, enthusiastic conversation. I can think of a fun examples;

 

- One girl, waaaaaay out of my league, gave me her number after we talked about her writing, her business, some other interests. This was within a few messages. I got talking to her briefly via text, then asked her out. She immediately stopped responding. We actually matched a few months later and she apologized, but this time she played the delay tactic.

 

- Another girl I've matched with like, seven times, and we would always have a conversation. The last time I spoke to her, she suggested we meet. I agreed. She unmatched me.

 

- I had a girl enthusiastically agree to a casual hookup, with some flirting in-between. She bailed on me twice, and when I left the ball in her court...never got back to me.

 

- One woman messaged me saying "Wow, if you were my teacher I would never have left school!" (IE. She was attracted). She spoken enthusiastically, gave me her number, agree to a date and said she was looking forward to it. I checked up the day before to see if we were still on. No response.

 

- I had one girl say that my opener (that I can't remember) was "Literally the best one I've received yet!". Then her replies slowed down until eventually nothing the moment I suggested a meet.

 

I don't play games, and I don't mess around. I message them briefly, try to secure a number, and then if I do get that number then I attempt to secure a meet. It's at each one of those stages, of varying degree, that I end up losing out.

 

As for my messages being reviewed; all I can honestly say is that I've had my profiles, bio, and messages reviewed by friends, people online and even my counselors. Apparently I do not come across as creepy, pushy, arrogant, or any number of negatives.

 

My points are - what is the energy you are exuding (in school, etc but also through messages)? And how exactly are you trying to lock in those dates when you do get online matches?

 

I don't quite know how to answer this question, but I'll give it my best shot.

 

I am not the loudest guy in the room; I'm not boisterous like some my (sometimes younger) peers. I'm not a "lad". I can have fun and be playful, but I'm just not the type to run around screaming my head off or play the type of drinking games where I end up walking around in my underwear for the rest of the night.

 

I'm sometimes quiet usually, but usually I'm the guy to go around introducing myself, making conversation, usually making people laugh. As said before, I can be playful, and if the vibe is right then that includes physical acts too (for the sake of an example, tickling). I'm also quite sexual, so make comments as and when appropriate of that nature. I'm quite calm and relaxed, apparently have positive and confident body language. I guess you could probably think of a less confident James Bond.

 

In terms of sexual energy, I don't...engage in self-pleasure. So there's plenty of pent-up energy in that respect.

[ZA Dater]

Consider that women your own age have been out of school and have started to build successful careers already. Women want to upgrade their lifestyles, and for those women, dating someone who's still in school is a step backward. I'm sure you've seen the Chris Rock bit about this. You're losing money in school, you're a potential liability to women, not an asset. Things will get better when you graduate, but then you'll still have to compete with guys your age who have been advancing their careers and earning money for the past 4 years.

 

For younger girls in your school (age 18-21, I assume?), they know how much older you are (yes, they know even if you haven't told them, there's a noticeable, obvious, difference between ages 20 and 25), and they likely think it's at least somewhat strange that you're still in school and/or hang out with people much younger. Even if you've started late for a legitimate reason, they don't care and they won't give you the benefit of the doubt. Women like older men typically because they're more mature, successful, distinguished, etc. But you're older and in the same spot as them, which is making you look worse.

 

 

 

 

They know, and it's probably an issue. Just because they haven't said anything about it doesn't mean they don't know or it doesn't affect their perception. When I was in school there would be "older" (23+) people who were still in school who would be around, people would typically assume (and talk secretly that) they were there because they had messed up, failed a bunch of classes, couldn't afford tuition on a standard 4 year schedule, etc. Kids are cruel. No one knew if the older students had taken time off to care for family members in poor health or volunteer in third world countries -- they weren't given the benefit of the doubt. People who are behind the curve in personal and/or career development were just assumed to be there as a result of some failure or shortcoming, whether justifiable or not. In competitive arenas like school, people are trying to make the best future for themselves, and oftentimes you are the company you keep. Associating with "the weird 24 year failure" probably isn't going to advance a girl's future much, she'll see it as an anchor and avoid that guy unless maybe she needs him to buy alcohol. I'm not saying it's right, but it does happen.

 

 

 

OP if you ever come across ladies who openly think like described here please politely tell when what to do with themselves. This is such rubbish but frankly there might actually be people like this on earth. Normal Person raised a good point.

 

 

The best way to counter people like this is to simply be better than them.

[PRW]

At the beginning of your thread you mention having dating coaches. I think those were your best bet. But unless the dating coach is Kedzia Noble I recommend they be men. Even professionals in the field may sometimes soften what they tell you or just tell you what you want to hear to avoid hurting your feelings. If those you turned to were men, then maybe you need to try one or two new ones for comparison sake.

 

The way you describe yourself does not show any red flags to me. There is a lot of negativity but I would hope you are only showing us that and that it is not showing in your social life interaction. But everything you tell us is based on your own perceptions combined with other people who may be softening what they are saying to not offend you, so these perceptions could be wrong. Obviously there is no way that I can know. I'm just putting some things out there to think about. Trying some different male dating coaches who aren't afraid to be critical is your best option I can think of.

[ZA Dater]

At the beginning of your thread you mention having dating coaches. I think those were your best bet. <snip>

 

OP forget dating coaches there are much more fun ways of wasting money.

Edited January 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote

[PRW]

This is such rubbish but frankly there might actually be people like this on earth. Normal Person raised a good point.

It is pretty much the standard today.

 

The Hypergamy situation is across the board with women. To make a comparison the hypergamy is the same to women as is "visual attraction by sight" is for men. You can't stop women from hypergamy any more than you can prevent men from being attracted to women visually. To make a secondary comparison women spending a bunch of effort on their looks to "look hot" is the counter part to men working on making their social value appear as high as they can.

 

Here's a woman who understands this pretty well and acknowledges it:

[PRW]

OP forget dating coaches there are much more fun ways of wasting money.

Well, he needs someone who will look at him objectively and that has the skills to correctly analyze what they see,...and then tell him what they see without fear of offending him.

 

Friends, family, female friends, and female orbiters, will never do that.

 

I'm sure I have the skills to offend Gandhi and make him start a fist fight, but I'm not in a position to deal with the OP directly.

[PRW]

Here is the "part 2" of the Hypergamy video from the same YouTuber:

[edgygirl]

By all the things you've said it seems you are doing the right thing re: messaging and timing.

 

But maybe I should go back to what I said - maybe if you are trying to set up a date very soon, it doesn't work that well with women in your area/age. Maybe change tactics a bit and try to connect a little more emotionally before asking to meet then? If what you're currently doing is not working, of course, change it a little.

 

I usually unmatch males I was lukewarm about and that didn't "convince" me through their messages that they might be a good match (emotionally and/or the things we are into). I'd do it specially when they insist in asking me out before I feel a rapport was really established.

 

I think you misunderstood my comment about "male energy"... it's more about seeming attracted and playful with the women you meet or chat. In an alpha, non beta way. We intuitively sense when a man is attracted to us. Maybe you are not exuding that energy when talking to women. It's hard to put into words but maybe you can do some research on females and attraction. Mainly read about the psychology behind attraction, not BS sites that "promise" you to attract women or so by signing up to it. I've been reading about male attraction and we are def different so it's good to know what (scientifically, evolutionary/biologically and psychologically) attracts the opposite sex (in words, actions and body language) and try to adapt accordingly.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=female+attraction+psychology&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Edited January 4, 2019 by edgygirl

[normal person]

OP if you ever come across ladies who openly think like described here please politely tell when what to do with themselves. This is such rubbish but frankly there might actually be people like this on earth. Normal Person raised a good point.

 

 

The best way to counter people like this is to simply be better than them.

 

To be fair, most people are like this, even the most understanding/empathetic are, too a degree. Everyone on a biological level wants what's best for themselves, and one of the biggest ways of of doing that is via "social capital:" your socioeconomic status, who your friends are, how successful/attractive/powerful your friends are, etc. Having these things is a subconscious seal of approval to everyone else that you have the same qualities and values. People will usually naturally fall into groups of similar people. Google "assortive mating."

 

The problem is, if people want to maintain their own social capital, they often don't want to be too closely associated with someone who has less, because it will devalue their own and make them look worse, which will make them less likely to get the partner and things they desire. The selection process at Greek life at US universities is a prime example of this. Or, for example, have you ever seen an attractive person get disgusted, cruel, or even angry when someone they don't think is up to their standard asks them out? It's because of this sort of thing. They don't want to be seen with the person, or, they're actually offended the person thinks they have a chance because it's an insult to their very perception of themselves.

 

There's a reason the hottest girls at your high school don't typically mingle with the socially inept, not so smart, unathletic people with nothing going for them. If you have much more social capital than someone, you probably don't have much to gain by associating with them, you only stand to make yourself look worse. There's a reason all your friends aren't lepers or morbidly obese.

 

I only watched a little bit of the videos linked but it seemed to hit on this decently.

 

I also agree with the "masculine energy" hypothesis. Women can sense desperation and insecurity much better than you think they can. If you're desperate, if you don't have answers, if you can't figure things out on your own, you're probably not a viable option for the majority of women with standards. If you're doing these things even subconsciously, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You want a woman to respect you and think of you as a man, not a child. OP, you sound like you need a long campaign of losing the desperation. You need to develop something about yourself that makes women want to come to you. They won't find you desperate or insecure if you're not asking them out, not asking them what's wrong with you, not asking for advice, not asking them to set you up with their friends, etc. That behavior is needy, it's a turn off. You need to be cool and collected. Ease of the pedal for a while and see what happens. 99% of women I ever dated were a result of me not pursuing, pushing, asking, etc. If you wait for the women to come to you and handle the situation appropriately, they'll always assume you're in control unless you mishandle it badly.

[elaine567]

... have you ever seen an attractive person get disgusted, cruel, or even angry when someone they don't think is up to their standard asks them out? It's because of this sort of thing. They don't want to be seen with the person, or, they're actually offended the person thinks they have a chance because it's an insult to their very perception of themselves.

 

Exactly.

People tend to pair off, approximately like with like, so the assumption is that if you are attracting the lower rungs of the ladder, you must therefore be on the lower rungs yourself and to some that is unthinkable, so they try to distance themselves immediately.

"Ugh, go away you odious little man..."

 

Whereas if approached by a person they perceive to be of higher standing, ie good looking, clever, witty, funny, entertaining they are then accommodating and friendly...

[PRW]

"Ugh, go away you odious little man..."

I think I remember that as a line from a movie somewhere.

[Wallysbears]

And, to be frank, most women that attend college now aren’t going to college for that sake of attaining their Mrs. as was the case decades ago.

 

You’re behind the curve in college at your age. Sorry to be blunt, but it is true.

 

At 24 many have already gone on to advanced degrees and/or attained their first post bachelor promotions and are getting MBA’s and such paid for by employers.

[LightWave93]

The way you describe yourself does not show any red flags to me. There is a lot of negativity but I would hope you are only showing us that and that it is not showing in your social life interaction. But everything you tell us is based on your own perceptions combined with other people who may be softening what they are saying to not offend you, so these perceptions could be wrong. Obviously there is no way that I can know. I'm just putting some things out there to think about. Trying some different male dating coaches who aren't afraid to be critical is your best option I can think of.

 

I can totally understand why you all think that perhaps people are being polite, not telling me the 100% truth etc, but I am absolutely convinced they are not lying to me. That isn't anything to do with being unable to accept I have flaws (I do!), or that I could improve in certain areas (I can!), but here's the thing...Quite literally hundreds of people have said the exact same things about me.

 

It's no exaggeration; even if we take my family and friends out of the equation, you have TEN mental health professionals, TWO dating coaches, and Lord knows how many people online on various websites who have all echo'd the same or similar sentiments. "Interesting", "Attractive", "Have a lot going for you" etc.

 

I am NOT trying to say "LOOK AT ME, I'M AMAZING AND PERFECT". Far, far from it. What I am trying to highlight is that the universal opinion of me seems to be positive.

 

But maybe I should go back to what I said - maybe if you are trying to set up a date very soon, it doesn't work that well with women in your area/age. Maybe change tactics a bit and try to connect a little more emotionally before asking to meet then? If what you're currently doing is not working, of course, change it a little.

 

I think in the UK, women tend to be more reserved about meeting. Unless you're REALLY attractive or definitely their type. I know in some cases I've had girls say "Oh, I'd like to talk more first", but more often that not that just leads to them messing around and ghosting anyway.

 

I think you misunderstood my comment about "male energy"... it's more about seeming attracted and playful with the women you meet or chat. In an alpha, non beta way. We intuitively sense when a man is attracted to us. Maybe you are not exuding that energy when talking to women. It's hard to put into words but maybe you can do some research on females and attraction. Mainly read about the psychology behind attraction, not BS sites that "promise" you to attract women or so by signing up to it. I've been reading about male attraction and we are def different so it's good to know what (scientifically, evolutionary/biologically and psychologically) attracts the opposite sex (in words, actions and body language) and try to adapt accordingly.

 

I've done research, and they all suggest things like "Confident body language", "Be playful / flirt", "Talk slowly", all things that I do anyway, by default.

 

Women can sense desperation and insecurity much better than you think they can. If you're desperate, if you don't have answers, if you can't figure things out on your own, you're probably not a viable option for the majority of women with standards. If you're doing these things even subconsciously, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You want a woman to respect you and think of you as a man, not a child. OP, you sound like you need a long campaign of losing the desperation. You need to develop something about yourself that makes women want to come to you. They won't find you desperate or insecure if you're not asking them out, not asking them what's wrong with you, not asking for advice, not asking them to set you up with their friends, etc. That behavior is needy, it's a turn off. You need to be cool and collected. Ease of the pedal for a while and see what happens. 99% of women I ever dated were a result of me not pursuing, pushing, asking, etc. If you wait for the women to come to you and handle the situation appropriately, they'll always assume you're in control unless you mishandle it badly.

 

I know we often don't see eye-to-eye, but...I like you. You're clearly very intelligent, and want to help people.

 

But sometimes I don't know where your head is at. You've criticized me before for not asking out enough women, and now it's the total opposite. What is it, exactly, are you wanting me to do? For the record, I have also tried that suggestion; hell at the moment I'm on no dating sites, working hard, learning to dance, volunteering (aboard) when I can, gym, spending time with friends...I don't have much time to be asking out women (not that I come across many right now).

 

Recently, I've been going to the bar / night clubs more. I dress well, look groomed, smell nice, don't have a resting bitch face, open posture...women do not notice me, much less approach me. I have NEVER been approached by a woman in my life.

 

And the odd thing? I saw a (subjectively) less attractive guy slouched on a night club table last night, looking miserable, and two girls approached him to dance. I don't get it!!

 

You’re behind the curve in college at your age. Sorry to be blunt, but it is true.

 

At 24 many have already gone on to advanced degrees and/or attained their first post bachelor promotions and are getting MBA’s and such paid for by employers.

 

I checked your location. You're American. I know you may disagree with me, but our culture is vastly different in some respects...and dating / women seem to be one of them. This focus on my education / career status is totally irrelevant. For starters, that does NOT explain why I do not get dates or hookups; women have no possible way of knowing I'm still a student at the stages I get to with them (hell, whenever I do talk about what I do with ANYONE, I say I'm a teacher, full stop...because in my training I work full-time anyway, and have the same responsibilities).

 

Secondly, my university has a large number of "mature" students who are my age or higher.

 

Third, I know plenty of girls that are dating / hooking up with men older than them, who are also at university.

 

I can't accept this as the reason for my lack of success. It's simply not a possibility. WHEN I start getting dates, then it may be an issue.

 

 

--------------

 

As an aside; been talking to my current counselor about my night club escapades and apparently the one girl I mentioned to him that *may* have tried to dance with me definitely was trying to, going by the information I gave him. Also, I went out last night and I didn't find out until this morning that two women had been eyeing me up for about 15 minutes. So...****.

[PRW]

TEN mental health professionals, TWO dating coaches, and Lord knows how many people online on various websites

Mental health professional have their "place", but this isn't it. I don't think you will get valid help from them on dating. The one mental health professional I knew ended up coming to me for relationship advice. There are too many therapists that need a therapist. MHPs, along with professional dating coaches also don't want to anger their clients because they make their living off of them and it they anger them they won't come back. Also the longer the problem continues the more you come back the more money they make.

 

As far as people on websites,...that is what I am, and I am telling you that we can't do anything but comment on words on a computer screen written to us by you. There is no way for us to follow you around and see what is going on in real life.

 

Clearly you are doing something wrong or you wouldn't be having the problem and wouldn't be here. Maybe you are telling the women that you have dealt with 10 MHPs and have a current counselor. Maybe you are telling them "I can't get a date". You go telling women stuff like this and you are effectively telling them you are a leper. Even if you didn't tell them directly, you may have told enough other people that "word got around".

 

About the only way we would have a clue with this would be for us to have verbatim quotes of conversations that you have with the women. But even then there is a lot of guessing.

[elaine567]

Ok forgive me if this has already been explored, but why are you in contact with TEN mental health professionals?

[PRW]

(Said to Wallysbears) I checked your location. You're American. I know you may disagree with me, but our culture is vastly different in some respects...and dating / women seem to be one of them.

 

This focus on my education / career status is totally irrelevant.

 

For starters, that does NOT explain why I do not get dates or hookups;

The UK is not significantly different. And most of what we tell you is rooted biological human nature that is the same everywhere. Some of that may not explain why you don't get an initial date but it effects what happens after that. I think you have multiple problems that just simply have not been revealed to us yet. Wallysbear is doing what the rest of us are and is putting out ideas of things to consider.

[LightWave93]

Mental health professional have their "place", but this isn't it. I don't think you will get valid help from them on dating. The one mental health professional I knew ended up coming to me for relationship advice. There are too many therapists that need a therapist. MHPs, along with professional dating coaches also don't want to anger their clients because they make their living off of them and it they anger them they won't come back. Also the longer the problem continues the more you come back the more money they make.

 

You believe what you want. I trust their judgement.

 

Also, FYI, both dating coaches were free. Long story.

 

As far as people on websites,...that is what I am, and I am telling you that we can't do anything but comment on words on a computer screen written to us by you. There is no way for us to follow you around and see what is going on in real life.

 

I'm referring to people who have seen my pictures ("Attractive"), engage in conversation with me ("Interesting") etc, not those that I speak to on public threads such as this.

 

Clearly you are doing something wrong or you wouldn't be having the problem and wouldn't be here. Maybe you are telling the women that you have dealt with 10 MHPs and have a current counselor. Maybe you are telling them "I can't get a date". You go telling women stuff like this and you are effectively telling them you are a leper. Even if you didn't tell them directly, you may have told enough other people that "word got around".

 

I'm not.

I'm not.

No, word has not got around.

 

Can we please stop throwing any ol' rubbish at the wall, hoping it sticks?

 

About the only way we would have a clue with this would be for us to have verbatim quotes of conversations that you have with the women. But even then there is a lot of guessing.

 

I've told you, I've had this done before and my conversations are (apparently) fine.

 

Ok forgive me if this has already been explored, but why are you in contact with TEN mental health professionals?

 

I am not presently. I've been ten during the last four years. I was prompted to go to therapy when my first partner broke up with me, falsely accusing me of abuse; I fell into deep depression as a result. I also had some underlying issues stemming from my own childhood abuse.

 

Currently I see one counselor, and take anti-depressants.

 

The UK is not significantly different. And most of what we tell you is rooted biological human nature that is the same everywhere. Some of that may not explain why you don't get an initial date but it effects what happens after that. I think you have multiple problems that just simply have not been revealed to us yet. Wallysbear is doing what the rest of us are and is putting out ideas of things to consider.

 

Judging from what I've read online, I beg to differ, but the point is moot. You're literally focusing on something that is not the issue, and the more we drag on with this...the less help I'm going to receive.

[some_username1]

I don't have much to add other than I live in the UK and went to university as a mature student at 27 and within the first couple of weeks had slept with 2 18 year olds. Obviously there was nothing long term about it but the takeaway is that age is no barrier to entry at university, far from it. Everyone is looking to screw anyone so as long as you have all your own teeth, no obvious deformities and can crack a joke then getting laid should be a matter of course.

[LightWave93]

I don't have much to add other than I live in the UK and went to university as a mature student at 27 and within the first couple of weeks had slept with 2 18 year olds. Obviously there was nothing long term about it but the takeaway is that age is no barrier to entry at university, far from it. Everyone is looking to screw anyone so as long as you have all your own teeth, no obvious deformities and can crack a joke then getting laid should be a matter of course.

 

Thank you for posting this. Maybe they will change their focus to something more tangible.

 

As for the last bit; have my own teeth, no deformities and can crack a joke. I suck at life apparently.