Still no dates.

[clia]

Well, that's you isn't it? Not everyone behaves the same way, or has the same values etc.

 

Okay, fine, fair enough. I can't speak for everyone. But I've also had a number of female roommates and friends in my life and I never saw any of them invite a guy who was "just friends" into their bed either. Maybe it's more common in the UK.

 

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time. You've said that you miss signals, so I'm wondering if you actually missed some signals here.

 

From what you posted, you met her at a party, danced with her, ended up walking her home. And then presumably from there she invited you in, invited you to stay at her house, and invited you to sleep in her bed. Please excuse my confusion, but this all sounds like a woman who is interested in you.

 

I understand that she said nothing was going to happen between you two when you slept in her bed, but that could've just meant she didn't want to have sex with you that night (which would be totally understandable since she just met you), so she was warning you not to try to get in her pants. But just saying that doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't interested in dating you. Did she actually explicitly say to you that she just wanted to be friends or didn't want to date?

[salparadise]

What I think is confusing for most people here is how often you say you have people singing your praises, and at the same time, no one, not even those people, wants anything to do with you on anything more than a platonic level. You need to explain the white space of incongruence between what these girls say about you and their reluctance to view you sexually.

It's possible for a man and a woman to cross paths, find each other physically and emotionally appealing, and not want to form a romantic / sexual relationship. In my case, I simply have a bunch of female friends who I only want a platonic relationship with, and the feelings are mutual. There's nothing alien about that.

 

I am late to this thread, but have read most of it and find it intriguing. We've had women verify from pics and videos that it's not a problem with raw looks or initial presentation. Getting plenty of matches on Tinder, then being unable to get to an in-person meeting, further confirms this. So that essentially leaves one other possibility... it has to be something about the kind of energy you're transmitting.

 

Someone mentioned that you may present as the "nice guy." You've mentioned several times that you have a bunch of female friends, they affirm that you're attractive, but there is zero attraction between you and them in either direction. Then there is the recent mention that you've shown them the outfits you plan to wear and they provided positive feedback. Another place you said that you never have women approach you (at bars, etc.) These are the clues that jumped out to me. Let's break these down one at a time.

 

Female friends, lots. You do realize that this is unusual, right? Men tend to have mostly male friends. Male friends bond through masculine energy. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with female friends per se, and it is possible for men and women to be actual friends, however, for most people this is the exception and not the rule. What usually happens is... sexual energy. One ends up wanting to bang the other, or they start having romantic feelings/fantasies. If you're maintaining a bunch of female friends and this NEVER happens, and if you don't bond with other men in a natural, masculine-buddy way... it has to be something about the energy.

 

Outfits. Men's men don't consult with women about outfits. In fact, most men don't even think about outfits beyond just wearing something appropriate for the occasion. When I have a date I never plan out what to wear in advance. Instead I have a formula that works- dark jeans or slacks, a nice collared, long-sleeve shirt, usually a sport coat, and respectable shoes/boots. I think about it thirty minutes before time to leave as I'm stepping out of the shower. I can match the colors up okay, and that's really all there is to it. Women are concerned about appearance, and they plan and consult with each other. Now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with this, but it's a clue to how you think and feel, and the energy.

 

Women never approach. Right. Me either. Women generally do not make the approach (exceptions acknowledged). What they do is send a subtle signal to green light you. It's usually just a glance, perhaps lingering a fraction of a second longer than one that would mean nothing, perhaps paired with a raised eyebrow or a very subtle grin. They are not going to send it but once, and if you're not savvy enough to respond appropriately the window closes quickly. The fact that you see it as peculiar that women don't hit on you is a clue. It makes one wonder if you have a working grasp of gender paradigms.

 

About Tinder and the dating sites. If they like your pics/profile enough to match or initiate/respond to a message, don't dilly dally around. Attention spans are short and there's a lot of competition, esp. if she's very attractive. Move on it while you're the man of the minute. Exchange 3-4 quick messages and ask to meet. I've asked in the first or second message many times, and I actually do better that way than dragging it out for days or weeks. I had one woman comment when we met that it was pretty bold of me to ask in the first message. I just grinned and said, well I'm now glad that I did. This online stuff works by process of elimination... they're looking for a reason to next you. The chances of you building additional value through texting is slim, and the odds that you might say something they can use as an excuse to devalue is large. Bold works better, and it also saves you dealing with those who are only attention seeking.

 

So I don't think there is anything significantly wrong, but I do suspect you could be coming across as too cozy-friendly, perhaps not masculine enough to fit their fantasy. And I wonder why all of these female friends of yours are working out so well. Are there any you could ask?

[LightWave93]

<snip>

 

Vulnerability may sound like weakness but it usually gives strength to a possible relationship. Sometimes i.e. I tell a prospective date (jokingly but they know it's not a total joke) that finding the right person has been so difficult and the process so frustrating that I might as well give up soon. People can relate to that as dating sucks for almost everyone.

 

Dunno... just trying to read between the lines of what you say to try to help you.

 

I know normal_person's going to come down on me like a ton of bricks after this next statement, but...yes, I have been vulnerable. In fact, the last woman I ever dated (bearing in mind, this was some time ago) I had mentioned that I found online dating difficult, or words to that effect.

 

For what little it's worth, the few times I have dated, the women have usually been quite receptive to me during the occasion, we are physical (I kiss them on the cheek, usually), express interest in seeing each other again, have often tried to arrange the next meet, but then end up ghosting.

 

Okay, fine, fair enough. I can't speak for everyone. But I've also had a number of female roommates and friends in my life and I never saw any of them invite a guy who was "just friends" into their bed either. Maybe it's more common in the UK.

 

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time. You've said that you miss signals, so I'm wondering if you actually missed some signals here. <snip>

 

Oh don't worry, I understand no one is here to give me a hard time. Believe me, I know this situation is frustrating for you to read, and I wish I could give you more concrete answers. The only time I get annoyed is when some posters (and no, not you) seem to twist my words a little to suit their point of view...and then it gets to the point where I have to reiterate for clarity (as you'll see to my response to the next quote).

 

I wouldn't say it's common per-se, but I've certainly heard of it happening. Off the top of my head, I can think of eight women I've slept in the same bed with; it's simply a convenience after a night-out and they happen to live closer, I've walked them back etc. As another example; about two months ago I had booked a hotel room to stop over at my university town, but negated the comfort of that location to walk a fairly drunk female friend, who I barely know, back home where she live miles away. It just happens.

 

She has explicitly stated she wishes to be friends.

 

<snip>

Someone mentioned that you may present as the "nice guy." You've mentioned several times that you have a bunch of female friends, they affirm that you're attractive, but there is zero attraction between you and them in either direction. Then there is the recent mention that you've shown them the outfits you plan to wear and they provided positive feedback. Another place you said that you never have women approach you (at bars, etc.) These are the clues that jumped out to me. Let's break these down one at a time.

 

Female friends, lots. You do realize that this is unusual, right? Men tend to have mostly male friends. Male friends bond through masculine energy. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with female friends per se, and it is possible for men and women to be actual friends, however, for most people this is the exception and not the rule. What usually happens is... sexual energy. One ends up wanting to bang the other, or they start having romantic feelings/fantasies. If you're maintaining a bunch of female friends and this NEVER happens, and if you don't bond with other men in a natural, masculine-buddy way... it has to be something about the energy.

 

Outfits. Men's men don't consult with women about outfits. In fact, most men don't even think about outfits beyond just wearing something appropriate for the occasion. When I have a date I never plan out what to wear in advance. Instead I have a formula that works- dark jeans or slacks, a nice collared, long-sleeve shirt, usually a sport coat, and respectable shoes/boots. I think about it thirty minutes before time to leave as I'm stepping out of the shower. I can match the colors up okay, and that's really all there is to it. Women are concerned about appearance, and they plan and consult with each other. Now don't get me wrong... I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with this, but it's a clue to how you think and feel, and the energy.<snip>

 

That outfit statement was misconstrued; as I later stated, it was in discussion with a female course-mate of mine who is older and a mother, and I was simply sharing what I was wearing to assist her in knowing the type of "formality" expected at the night club we are soon going to. It just so happened she complimented me.

 

The reason for my lack of male friends is the result of multiple circumstances. For starters, I'm a Computer Scientist; although the stereotype of "nerdy introvert who lacks social skills" is not inherently true, in my case I never bonded with those on my course save for a very small number. Out of those, I only made good friends with three of them, one male and two women. Furthermore, in my efforts to meet more women I have often taken up activities are that have a higher ratio of women, take for example the dance classes I am currently attending. Then there is the case that a few of the male friends I used to have were toxic; namely one who used to be a best friend until I realized what a horrible person he was, and subsequently hearing about how he abused multiple women (yet, despite this well-known fact, he was still able to attract). I have never bonded well with boisterous, "lad" types; I prefer intellectual conversations and maturity over loud-mouthed spats every weekend at the local bar. Overall, I do have a small number of male friends but they are either gay, introverts, have mental health issues, live miles away, I've never met, or I'm not hugely close to.

 

I'm aware that women don't typically hit on men (though there's been some arguments to the contrary in this thread, and plenty of real life examples). Two responses to this, however; one, that it is extremely clear to me when I observe women interacting with men that they are interested (and would not be perceived as subtle by themselves either), and two being that I never receive subtle signs such as the long stares, eyebrow, grin etc. I was looking around campus today and never locked eyes with anyone.

 

As for Tinder; the match ratio varies. I once had 200 matches in two days, and then other times i had very little. I would always tailor my openers to the person, and not be too sleazy / over-keen / boring in my responses. I would always try to get a number soon after. It did not work.

Edited January 8, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quotes

[Tamfana]

I think the best place to meet women is in yoga classes, or, well, before and after yoga classes. Pilates too. Go on a regular schedule and you'll not only be around oodles of women but you'll be healthier and more zen. All good.

[edgygirl]

Are you going for the right kind of women and does your bio show that? I know your type as I really like introverts & intellectuals, and the women that better suits them are equally intellectual women. A more shallow woman who's all about going dancing and partying and not that deep will probably not appreciate nor get you. Note that I know you're talking below about male friends, but I think this is also valid for dating prospects.

 

I made it abundantly clear in my profile that I'm into witty / intellectually curious men etc. and that I'm not really into sportsy / outdoorsy types etc. Since I did that I started to attract people who are better matches to me.

 

Besides this, I still agree with salparadise and the male energy theory. You seemed a bit defensive about his comments, but all his points make sense. I hope you reflect on them.

 

II have never bonded well with boisterous, "lad" types; I prefer intellectual conversations and maturity over loud-mouthed spats every weekend at the local bar.

Edited January 8, 2019 by edgygirl

[LightWave93]

Are you going for the right kind of women and does your bio show that? I know your type as I really like introverts & intellectuals, and the women that better suits them are equally intellectual women. A more shallow woman who's all about going dancing and partying and not that deep will probably not appreciate nor get you. Note that I know you're talking below about male friends, but I think this is also valid for dating prospects.

 

I've tried generic, and then bios that appealed to either introverts or extroverts. No luck.

 

Besides this, I still agree with salparadise and the male energy theory. You seemed a bit defensive about his comments, but all his points make sense. I hope you reflect on them.

 

I checked my facebook friend's list. It turns out, there's a fairly even split between male and women.

 

Because I think the idea that men can't be friends with women, and vice versa, is a preposterous idea...and I cannot fathom how people that are perhaps older than me are actually involved in this type of thinking. Or how this even relates to my issues. It doesn't.

 

Again, stop getting me to bang my friends. Have some respect please.

[normal person]

I have made it very clear, and these are facts; I'm decently-attractive, hard-working, intelligent, social and capable. I get on well with people, have a multitude of different hobbies and interests, and go out regularly to socialize. I present myself well and am a good conservationist. My dating profiles and pictures are a-okay. All the aforementioned has been confirmed to me by friends, family, complete strangers (online and offline), mental health professionals and dating coaches.

 

Can we simply except these for what they are, and work on other aspects that may be a-miss here?

 

We know all those things are true. Here's what's amiss that you haven't addressed: you're insecure and have low social capital, everyone knows it or can sense it eventually, so none of this stuff matters, and you're unaware of that. You can say you're confident all you want (and I believe that you believe that), but the question is whether or not everyone perceives you as confident with good social capital, which you don't actually know. Consider the case below:

 

Out of those, I only made good friends with three of them, one male and two women.

 

Why only 3?

 

Furthermore, in my efforts to meet more women I have often taken up activities are that have a higher ratio of women, take for example the dance classes I am currently attending.

 

I understand your logic, but this could very well have the opposite of the desired affect: women often think this is effeminate. Most women desire men who do masculine things and often question a guy who embraces feminine pursuits.

 

Overall, I do have a small number of male friends but they are either gay, introverts, have mental health issues, live miles away, I've never met, or I'm not hugely close to.

 

Why do you think you have no male friends that are straight, not introverted, mentally stable, local, that you've met (not sure I understand this one?), or are personally close to? This sounds very odd.

 

I understand that you think this discussion is cyclical, but here's what you have never addressed:

 

Women's perceptions of men, who despite all their other positive qualities:

- Seek feedback, advice, and help from women on how to attract women at age 25

- Have little to no male friends who exude masculinity, but lots of female friends

- Take dance classes

- Sleep in the same bed with women a dozen times without sexual tension, etc. (I understand that sometimes it's probably out of necessity. But it sounds like you're making a habit of it).

 

So, what do you think women think about men with these qualities? Not what they say. What do you think they think but don't say?

 

Let me clarify that there's nothing wrong with these things, but if you add all them up, they paint a very insecure and feminine picture of you. Women will wonder why other men don't like you enough to form friendships (even though you know plenty of women and are a direct route to all of them), why you have no social capital or respect amongst other men, etc. These all sound like the traits of a "gay best friend," (yes, we know you're not gay), but for all intensive purposes, I wouldn't be at all surprised if women see you in a similar light -- a guy who's totally harmless because he's clueless about women, non-threatening, likes to dance, has no male friends to divulge information to, will never make a sexual advance in a million years, etc. You're a safe, nice, guy.

 

All those things are fine, unless you want those women to desire you, which is impossible if they think of you as sort of "one of the girls." What you don't seem to understand is that most women like men who know what they're doing with women, have respect amongst their male friends, who are aggressive at the appropriate times, can take charge, can roll the dice a little, etc. That's the masculine energy alluded to before by other posters that you don't seem to possess. If this is what women see of you, then they don't desire you because they don't think of you as a man in the same way they view other men.

 

I'm not the first person to notice this and you've yet to dispel it, so if you want peoples' help, it's worth examining, don't you think? You seem to have an insecure and feminine energy, reputation, rapport, etc. Is that a wrong assessment?

[ZA Dater]

a guy who's totally harmless because he's clueless about women, non-threatening, likes to dance, has no male friends to divulge information to, will never make a sexual advance in a million years, etc. You're a safe, nice, guy.

All those things are fine, unless you want those women to desire you, which is impossible if they think of you as sort of "one of the girls." What you don't seem to understand is that most women like men who know what they're doing with women, have respect amongst their male friends, who are aggressive at the appropriate times, can take charge, can roll the dice a little, etc. That's the masculine energy alluded to before by other posters that you don't seem to possess. If this is what women see of you, then they don't desire you because they don't think of you as a man in the same way they view other men.

 

 

 

OP you don't want to be the bold...my guess is this is why your dating doesn't go that well.

 

 

However are you happy being you?

[LightWave93]

Is that a wrong assessment?

 

Yes, but I spend more time arguing with you than coming to any sort of conclusion, so just going to answer in short;

 

I do make sexual advances, I'm not totally clueless with women (had partners, remember), I don't seek feedback on how to attract women (only asked a select few if they can highlight any issues), plenty of men like to dance (what a stupid statement), I do talk to my male friends, and I have respect among them.

[normal person]

 

I do make sexual advances,

 

Was with regards to the women whose bed you sleep in, but fair enough

 

 

I'm not totally clueless with women (had partners, remember),

 

Fine, but that doesn't seem to be doing you any good; you seem to be at a loss currently.

 

 

I don't seek feedback on how to attract women (only asked a select few if they can highlight any issues),

 

That's seeking feedback and admitting you don't have answers, aka insecurity and incompetence.

 

 

plenty of men like to dance (what a stupid statement),

 

You're right. I didn't say that they don't, what I'm alluding to is the perception of masculinity of some that do given other circumstances. You, in particular.

 

I do talk to my male friends,

 

I didn't say you didn't talk to them, I asked why you don't have any that are straight, not introverted, mentally stable, local, or personally close to you. Is there an answer?

 

and I have respect among them.

 

Ok, but aside from your friends who are gay, mentally unstable, not local, etc. Unless women respect and want to sleep with them, their respect doesn't move your barometer much. Do you have any relatively standard issue masculine male friends that don't have some sort of sexual disqualifier?

 

What I'm asking is do women see and know that the men they want to date and sleep with respect your masculinity? Do those men want you to be around them to improve their social capital and chances of getting girls, etc?

 

Do women know that masculine, desirable men think of you as one of them, or is there a different perception, and if so, what do you think it is?

[LightWave93]

*sigh*

 

I'm bored right now, so I will reply.

 

The problem is, at the moment, it's getting very difficult to paint an accurate picture because some of my statements are being misinterpreted. Whilst it's understanding you all need details, it's also very pedantic; and the moment I don't clarify something, inaccurate assumptions are made.

 

Here's what's amiss that you haven't addressed: you're insecure and have low social capital...

 

When I first came here, you all advised me to seek the advice of mental health professionals, dating coaches and those closest to me. I did that. I will not accept you calling me insecure for taking on the advice that was suggested to me, especially when I would have otherwise been criticized for not taking on board what was suggested.

 

As for low social capital; what evidence is there to suggest that? I have been actively involved in my community, represented my peers, have gotten involved in many different events and clubs, and have interacted with hundreds of people. I had a bigger friendship circle, yes, but I cut it down; quality over quantity. That isn't low social capital, that's choosing the people that I want to be more deeply involved in my life.

 

but the question is whether or not everyone perceives you as confident with good social capital, which you don't actually know.

 

But I do, and I have said this before; I have received many comments saying that I come across as confident, and that I come across as someone who is a "people person", a "social butterfly" etc.

 

Why only 3?

 

Because those are the three I interacted with the most, and a friendship naturally followed. Everyone else in my cohort formed their own social groups early on and never branched out, but that appears to be the nature of that particular group of Computer Science students. It's also normal for people to form friendship groups and stick with them.

 

Fortunately, I found friends elsewhere.

 

I understand your logic, but this could very well have the opposite of the desired affect: women often think this is effeminate. Most women desire men who do masculine things and often question a guy who embraces feminine pursuits.

 

On the flip-side, I've also done self-defense, Badminton, Hiking / Camping, and other activities with a more balanced ratio.

 

Why do you think you have no male friends that are straight, not introverted, mentally stable, local, that you've met (not sure I understand this one?), or are personally close to? This sounds very odd.

 

Many of them are no longer local because university finished for them last year and they moved back home. I still have straight friends that are around, but they are married / with kids so thus don't have the time to socialize as much. Mental health issues are prevalent in today's society, and not everyone is going to be my best friend.

 

- Seek feedback, advice, and help from women on how to attract women at age 25

 

Who said? I've asked a select group of friends if I am doing anything wrong and I 100% trust their integrity. You assume they are lying to me.

 

- Have little to no male friends who exude masculinity, but lots of female friends

 

Who said? You have very little knowledge of my male friends and can't determine whether or not they exude masculinity. Assumption.

 

- Take dance classes

 

Many single men take dance classes. Many attractive men take dance classes. Many married men take dance classes. Many of them are straight. It's common advice to men to take up dancing if they are struggling in dancing, particularly among the seduction community. It was a way of keeping fit, meeting new people, and learning a good skill. It is an assumption for it to be detrimental.

 

- Sleep in the same bed with women a dozen times without sexual tension, etc. (I understand that sometimes it's probably out of necessity. But it sounds like you're making a habit of it).

 

"Sleep in the same bed with women..." that are my platonic friends. End of.

 

Do you have any relatively standard issue masculine male friends that don't have some sort of sexual disqualifier?

 

A handful, but they are usually the married ones or people who are single to focus on careers etc. I had more, but these were the men who were toxic, abusive, immature etc.

Edited January 8, 2019 by LightWave93

[edgygirl]

My main point was more on the intellectual side. Putting in your bio that you're interested in things like technology, history, science, politics, philosophy, meaning, of course things that you're really interested in and that are more on the intellectual side. That you like reading, watching documentaries etc... it attracts intelligent women specially because most men don't write these things. Most write about physical interests like sports and not intellectual pursuits.

 

I'm assuming you're interested in a woman that is attracted to these things, which I don't know you are.

 

I've tried generic, and then bios that appealed to either introverts or extroverts. No luck.

[LightWave93]

My main point was more on the intellectual side. Putting in your bio that you're interested in things like technology, history, science, politics, philosophy, meaning, of course things that you're really interested in and that are more on the intellectual side. That you like reading, watching documentaries etc... it attracts intelligent women specially because most men don't write these things. Most write about physical interests like sports and not intellectual pursuits.

 

I'm assuming you're interested in a woman that is attracted to these things, which I don't know you are.

 

Yeah, I get that, and I have tried. Sure, I may have got to speaking to such women on occasion (very rare), but it's always the same thing; ask them out, they stop replying.

 

But I'd be happy dating a variety. The two partners I have had were more the creative / bookish type, but that was coincidence. I'd like to date a "party girl", "a nerd", "an intellectual" etc, because I try to avoid categorizing people and I'm an open-minded person in general.

[ZA Dater]

OP based on what I read you have a decent base here, BUT you are seen as that safe guy which is 100% fine (I am one too) but you need to consider that this isn't deemed to be attractive for whatever deluded reason prescribed by society and its deemed norms.

 

 

You are supposed to be this macho idiot who spews forth vulgar BS at every turn, drinks beer watching football. Look around you and the guys who have GF and tell me whether they aren't all fundamentally the same.

 

 

Our friend Normal Person is right to an extent, you are in a safe zone which again is fine but accept the pitfalls which come with that.

 

 

You really need to choose but how much of your soul and individuality you want to sacrifice in pursuit of something which is not certain at best and unlikely at worst is up to you.

 

 

The good thing is you are 25 not 35 and in many respects you can get this right, whereas I missed the boat on it.

[LightWave93]

You are supposed to be this macho idiot who spews forth vulgar BS at every turn, drinks beer watching football. Look around you and the guys who have GF and tell me whether they aren't all fundamentally the same.

 

Most of the girls I know who have boyfriends, are dating men who would not meet the masculine male stereotype.

 

If I have to get hammered every weekend, watching sports I don't like and beating people up...then no, I will not sacrifice my soul.

 

If you want me to be a man that stands up for his beliefs, is confident in where he is going in life and is working hard towards a career, who is supportive towards those he holds dear whilst also being respecting / caring of others, takes action, then...that's already me.

Edited January 8, 2019 by LightWave93

[normal person]

When I first came here, you all advised me to seek the advice of mental health professionals, dating coaches and those closest to me. I did that. I will not accept you calling me insecure for taking on the advice that was suggested to me, especially when I would have otherwise been criticized for not taking on board what was suggested.

 

I don't think I suggested talking to your friends about it. As I said, I don't share all the same opinions as other posters here. But saying you're insecure, or that your problem might be that you may come off insecure isn't a criticism (nor is any of this), but it might be the reality that you have to deal with.

 

As for low social capital; what evidence is there to suggest that?

 

That no woman wants to date or sleep with you despite you being otherwise without issue.

 

I have been actively involved in my community, represented my peers, have gotten involved in many different events and clubs, and have interacted with hundreds of people. I had a bigger friendship circle, yes, but I cut it down; quality over quantity.

 

That's all great. You interact with people, but do those women want to date you and do the other men they want to date respect your masculinity and want to be around you because they think you'll help them get more girls or advance their lives or statuses in some way? That's basically much of what it boils down to.

 

That isn't low social capital, that's choosing the people that I want to be more deeply involved in my life.

 

Mutual exclusivity. My best friends can be lepers and I can still want them deeply involved in my life. That doesn't mean it won't affect peoples' perceptions of me and lower my social capital, whether or not I like it. Conversely, my best friends can be movie stars, and that will also affect how people perceive me. Same decision on my end, but a world of difference between the two with regards to my standing in society.

 

 

But I do, and I have said this before; I have received many comments saying that I come across as confident, and that I come across as someone who is a "people person", a "social butterfly" etc.

 

I'm sure you have. I'm sure you like people and they like you, and I'm sure you talk to people. But do those people want to date or sleep with you, or do they want to be around you because they think you'll increase their chances of dating or sleeping with someone else or advancing their life somehow?

 

Because those are the three I interacted with the most, and a friendship naturally followed. Everyone else in my cohort formed their own social groups early on and never branched out, but that appears to be the nature of that particular group of Computer Science students. It's also normal for people to form friendship groups and stick with them.

 

Fair enough, but it seems odd that you only made 1 male friend and the others are gay, mentally unstable, etc.

 

 

On the flip-side, I've also done self-defense, Badminton, Hiking / Camping, and other activities with a more balanced ratio.

 

Ok, but the point is that given all the other circumstances, the dance class might be doing more bad than good.

 

Who said? I've asked a select group of friends if I am doing anything wrong and I 100% trust their integrity. You assume they are lying to me.

 

You can not be "doing anything wrong" and still not be viewed as viable partner. I'm sure there are plenty of upstanding, nice, reasonably intelligent guys who don't "do things wrong." Perhaps their problem is not what they do, but what they don't do well enough, or what they don't do, or the way what they do is perceived, or some combination of those things.

 

Answer me this, if your friends say you don't do anything wrong, and you trust them, why are you in this situation? Because you can be without an objective misstep or visible flaw and still not viewed favorably to the point that women want to date you. See every thread on here by struggling, dumbfounded men who supposedly do everything right.

 

Cool, so you're smart, gregarious, handsome, etc. You do nothing objectively wrong. Why don't people want to date/sleep with you? Perhaps it's more complex an issue than you make it out to be. I have a friend who's tall, dark, very handsome, nice, and perpetually single. He's particularly friendly with all the wives, girlfriends, loves to cook, is a bit sensitive, not aggressive, non confrontational, etc. He's a great friend, he does nothing "wrong," but none of the girls view him sexually because he has a non-masculine vibe, aura, reputation. His traits and tendencies aren't bad, they just don't foster sexual desire, girls even laugh talking about it because they just can't view him that way.

 

Many single men take dance classes. Many attractive men take dance classes. Many married men take dance classes. Many of them are straight. It's common advice to men to take up dancing if they are struggling in dancing, particularly among the seduction community. It was a way of keeping fit, meeting new people, and learning a good skill. It is an assumption for it to be detrimental.

 

I understand. For those men who also have huge problems getting women in conjunction with other circumstances like yours, I personally wouldn't suggest it. For the others who have no problems or are unbothered, sure, dance.

 

"Sleep in the same bed with women..." that are my platonic friends. End of.

 

I understand. I've done it too when necessary. Sometimes it turned sexual. That doesn't mean your platonic friends perceptions of you aren't part of the equation. For example, your platonic friends in bed with you can experience some sexual tension, desire you, and perhaps hope that something does happen between you too, or they can view you as more of a non-sexual, safe, puppy dog with no sexuality, and talk about it with their friends, who will talk about it with their friends, etc.

 

You are supposed to be this macho idiot who spews forth vulgar BS at every turn, drinks beer watching football. Look around you and the guys who have GF and tell me whether they aren't all fundamentally the same.

 

You oversimplify.

[LightWave93]

That's all great. You interact with people, but do those women want to date you and do the other men they want to date respect your masculinity and want to be around you because they think you'll help them get more girls or advance their lives or statuses in some way? That's basically much of what it boils down to.

 

I don't know what people you associate with, but I don't know anyone who forms friendships with others because they "respect masculinity" or that it would "help them get girls".

 

Answer me this, if your friends say you don't do anything wrong, and you trust them, why are you in this situation? Because you can be without an objective misstep or visible flaw and still not viewed favorably to the point that women want to date you. See every thread on here by struggling, dumbfounded men who supposedly do everything right.

 

Again, not saying I don't do anything wrong, but I'm trusting that the issue is not glaringly obvious. IE. It's not to do with appearance, or because I'm awkward or something along those lines.

 

For example, your platonic friends in bed with you can experience some sexual tension, desire you, and perhaps hope that something does happen between you too, or they can view you as more of a non-sexual, safe, puppy dog with no sexuality, and talk about it with their friends, who will talk about it with their friends, etc.

 

I can assure you, that does not happen.

[normal person]

I don't know what people you associate with, but I don't know anyone who forms friendships with others because they "respect masculinity" or that it would "help them get girls".

 

You mean you don't know anyone who does it consciously or publicly. How do you think the thousands and thousands of pledges get selected and sorted for frats or sororities? It's basically

 

"We need this guy, his dad's a congressman." (translation: he can advance our status/life)

"No way do I want a fat sister."

"Her teeth aren't white enough and her dress is awful, hard pass." (translation: I don't want to be seen with them because doing so lowers my sexual market value).

 

Everyone makes assortments of themselves and others, both rational and superficial, whether they realize it or not. That's why you don't hang out with supermodels, and it's also why you don't hang out with lepers. Now extrapolate that more. Everyone is trying to advance their own life somehow. Odds are you don't want to hang around someone who you think will lessen your chances of getting the things you want out of life.

 

Your friends are your friends not just because you like each other, but also because those are the people you happen fall in with organically because of a variety of things: age, intelligence, temperament, socioeconomic status, path in life, looks, etc. I'm going to guess all your friends fall within one standard deviation of each other on most of those sorts of things.

 

Are a sizeable number of your friends absolute objectionable morons? No? Why not? You don't like to hang out with objectionable morons because you're smarter than morons, you don't enjoy their company, but also, you don't want be seen with objectionable morons because it also says something about you and you're aware that it affects how people see you. You don't want people to think you're also moron because it will affect your social capital and sexual market value.

 

Friendships will naturally form as these boundaries are tested.

 

The bigger point being, if women respect the masculinity and sexuality of certain men ("want to sleep with and date certain men"), but those men don't want to be seen with or associate with you, because for whatever reason they think you'll bring down their sexual market value, those women will likely not want to date or sleep with you. The men they desire don't think you'll advance their life through girls, fun, resources, etc. They think they're better off without you. Now, get some girls, play a sport very well, make a lot of money, or display high competence in another way area and see how they change their tune. People want friends who don't bring their status down, and if possible, reinforce or advance their status/life. Whether or not they realize it.

 

Again, not saying I don't do anything wrong, but I'm trusting that the issue is not glaringly obvious. IE. It's not to do with appearance, or because I'm awkward or something along those lines.

 

So we're in agreement. People don't view you sexually, for some reason unknown to you. Quite possibly because they don't respect your masculinity and you don't realize it, based on everything you've told us.

 

I can assure you, that does not happen.

 

Even if you were somehow sure of that, which you can never be, most communication is nonverbal.

 

"Lightwave is such a nice guy. He's so respectful."

Subconscious translation: He's objectively nice, but that does nothing to excite me sexually. I need a guy who will take charge and fulfill my desires without me having to be vulnerable, seem like a slut, or potentially experience any embarrassment or discomfort, and this guy definitely isn't it, because he's too nice to be that forward.

 

"Lightwave, you're so nice and handsome, I have no idea why you struggle!"

Subconscious translation: Sure, you look ok, but the fact that no other women want you, and the fact that it's so bad that you request help from me raises red flags about your social capital/sexual market value and confidence, and I don't want to date someone like that who both can't figure it out on his own, and will lower my own.

Edited January 9, 2019 by normal person

[LightWave93]

I really don't have anything to say to that. It's a load of rubbish.

[LightWave93]

Alright, so today has been an odd day.

 

I had a number of women make eye-contact with me. It's probably nothing at all as it certainly wasn't lingering, regular stares (well, one looked at me twice, but waaaaay out of my league), but I'm used to being completely invisible to it was an odd experience. The only differences on my side of things since before we broke up for holidays is a more regular effort at the gym (although no noticeable gains), a new hairstyle, meditation and a different anti-depressant.

 

And then, as I was sitting down working in a uni studying area, a girl asked a group behind me if they could move to make way for her to gain access to a computer...even though there was one available directly next to me. Again, probably nothing major, but the sudden visibility coupled with what seemed like avoidance has perplexed me.

 

Anyway, class tonight and then off for a night out. A friend of mine's volunteered to wing, but that's never worked before so...

[normal person]

I really don't have anything to say to that. It's a load of rubbish.

 

You got me. I just made it all up because I'm clueless.

 

You're right, when considering someone as a partner, women don't care about a man's social status or sexual market value, or it's implications. That's why you never see women pining over pro athletes, successful musicians, doctors, lawyers, people who make a lot of money, people in powerful positions, people who everyone else loves, etc. But they'll cut off an arm for the chance to date a forgettable Joe Schmoe who does nothing of note. Also, women would prefer their men to be friends with drug addicted vagrants rather than successful, prestigious, influential, attractive people. The people you associate with and the type of people who accept and respect you is all just a sham to women, it has no bearing on their perceptions of you. After all, women don't care about their social statuses or trying to upgrade their lifestyles. They'd prefer to be thought of as losers and live in poverty.

 

This is all why you never, ever, EVER hear women talking about or concerned with:

 

- Rich and famous people

- Minutiae of interpersonal relationships of themselves and others

- Nice clothes

- How people dress

- Fantasizing about marrying a prince

- If a guy they're dating is successful

- The kind of car the guy they're dating drives

- The kind of clothes the guy they're dating wears

- If someone is weird, "creepy," not liked by other people, should be avoided/insulted

- Distancing themselves from certain people for superficial reasons

- The degree to which other people are liked

- Social media

- Degrees of popularity of people measured by social media

- Their own attractiveness in comparison to others'

- Being liked by others

- Luxuries

 

Can you even picture a woman being concerned about such things? I know, it's a ludicrous thought.

 

My actual advice is that if you want women to like and respect you, make sure everyone else at your school thinks you're a detestable loner who smells bad. Because as you said, my previous post was rubbish -- social status and sexual market value is of no concern to women.

Edited January 9, 2019 by normal person

[LightWave93]

My actual advice is that if you want women to like and respect you, make sure everyone else at your school thinks you're a detestable loner who smells bad. Because as you said, my previous post was rubbish -- social status and sexual market value is of no concern to women.

 

No, your opinion of me is just clearly poor and I'm not going to receive help from you.

 

Whatever my issue is, it's not as you describe. Women wouldn't even be able to judge that anyway as they don't know me well enough OR they are mutually platonic friends.

[normal person]

No, your opinion of me is just clearly poor and I'm not going to receive help from you.

 

My opinion of you isn't poor, you seem like a nice person. But my opinion about peoples' perceptions of you could be poor until you've proven otherwise.

 

Whatever my issue is, it's not as you describe. Women wouldn't even be able to judge that anyway as they don't know me well enough OR they are mutually platonic friends.

 

So we'll just add peoples' perceptions of you to the never ending list of things that definitely are not the issue. Since this thread has seemed to exhaust every possibility, why don't you provide a list of things that you think might be the problem, and everyone can just stick to those to save time.

[SophieG]

Because as you said, my previous post was rubbish -- social status and sexual market value is of no concern to women.

 

I must come from a different planet because I really don't care about a guy's social status. I don't care about the money he makes, what he owns, etc. I will judge the person for who he is and not what he has. I'm a therapist (so Master's Degree) and my bf is a truck driver (High School diploma), and I don't care. I don't mind the difference in education and I'm not ashamed of his job... nor would I leave him for a doctor or lawyer.

[normal person]

I must come from a different planet because I really don't care about a guy's social status. I don't care about the money he makes, what he owns, etc. I will judge the person for who he is and not what he has. I'm a therapist (so Master's Degree) and my bf is a truck driver (High School diploma), and I don't care. I don't mind the difference in education and I'm not ashamed of his job... nor would I leave him for a doctor or lawyer.

 

I'm not saying you, or anyone else specifically, would. But let's not pretend like the overwhelming majority of women don't care about whether or not their partner is successful, whether he's well respected, etc. Also, these things are not binary. You can care that your partner is a decent person and at the same time expect a certain standard of all the other things. A partner can be as nice as Ghandi, but if he's broke, incompetent, and a laughing stock and pariah amongst the community, can you always and forever expect his partner to overlook it all just because he's so overwhelmingly kind? Or would the partner perhaps not be comfortable with this? My girlfriend loves me, but if everyone in my life else disliked, mocked, pitied, or looked down on me, I'm sure she'd start to wonder why she couldn't be with a man that she loves and is respected by others. She'd subconsciously think that the implications of other peoples' disdain for me would have an affect on her. It could affect my career, my earning power, and subsequently her lifestyle, her respectability, her potential kids' futures, etc. I can say that with confidence because that's sort of what happened when we started dating. We've all got busy schedules and she didn't meet too many of my friends for a few weeks, and she joked that she had started to wonder if they actually existed, or if I was just a some loner who no one liked. It was an actual thing she got concerned about. Even though she liked me, she was relieved to know that other normal, successful, well connected people liked me as well. Not because she's a superficial social climber, but because a person with low social capital is not desirable to women on a biological level.

 

Many, many people, especially superficial university aged ones who are trying to set up the rest of their lives with the best connections, opportunities, etc, care a good deal about these things. I'm not saying it's good or that I agree with the practice. But to suggest it doesn't happen is narrow minded.

 

If a woman sees a 25 year old man who can't for the life of him figure out how to get a date, who has mostly female friends, who takes dance classes, whose very few male friends are gay, mentally unstable, not close to him physically or personally, who frequently sleeps in the same bed with his platonic female friends, it's not unreasonable for her to wonder why these circumstances are so. Why are all his friends female? Does he have masculine, straight, mentally stable, male friends that enjoy his company? Can he not compete with them on some level? Do they not accept him? Why do no other women want to go out with him, even though they all tell him how great he is? Why do other women want to go out with everyone but him? If these questions don't have obvious or convenient answers, women aren't likely to give him the benefit of the doubt when there are plenty of guys whose behavior and circumstances are more "conventional." OP thinks I'm talking rubbish but I've seen it play out over and over again. People won't want to date or even associate with you you if they think there's something off about you, and one of the biggest ways they determine if something's off about you is your social capital. If no other women want you, if all your visible friends are female, gay, mentally unstable, etc... you're trading in a currency they might not accept.

 

 

I'm not just pulling these thoughts out of thin air. I've spent enough time around young women, I know how they view socially inept, romantically inept, off-beat people who just aren't liked, or those who have noticeably little social clout. It can range anywhere from to utter disgust to "he's a sweet guy, but I don't think of him in a romantic way." They don't want to date men like that (unless they themselves have no other options). They want capable, well liked, well respected men.

 

That being said, OP has assured us this isn't the case for him, so it's a moot point anyways.