Still no dates.

[Garcon1986]

old chap you've actually got nothing to lose if you for a moment try normal_person's approach to the world. You and me both don't have girlfriends. There's nowhere to go but up when we are in the mud trying not to hit the tripwires.

 

Why not swallow the pride for a moment and try his approach? I'm going to apply his knowledge to my dating game.

[normal person]

old chap you've actually got nothing to lose if you for a moment try normal_person's approach to the world. You and me both don't have girlfriends. There's nowhere to go but up when we are in the mud trying not to hit the tripwires.

 

Why not swallow the pride for a moment and try his approach? I'm going to apply his knowledge to my dating game.

 

To be fair, I'm not purporting to have a magic bullet. But what I am saying is that you'll have little to no chance if you appear needy, desperate, frustrated, insecure, not respected, lacking masculine energy, not liked, etc. I've always just let the women come to me which is not the most replicable strategy, but I also know that women are much less likely to come to me if I do appear to be or do those things. Typically being calm, capable, and confident are ways to avoid that.

[basil67]

....you never see women pining over pro athletes, successful musicians, doctors, lawyers, people who make a lot of money, people in powerful positions, people who everyone else loves, etc. But they'll cut off an arm for the chance to date a forgettable Joe Schmoe who does nothing of note.....

 

Given the rest of this paragrah, I suspect you're being sarcastic here. Yet you you've just described the reality of the choices of all my friends. We've all married normal guys who, while they are doing well in their own fields, aren't the top of anything...nor are they 'powerful'. All these guys have good personalities and are great fun to hang out with but I wouldn't say that "everyone loves them".

 

On a personal level, I'd never even consider dating a guy like you list at the top. My love language is quality time and none of them would be in the position to give it. And besides, nobody is THAT successful without making their goal #1. But as a partner, I will not accept being #2

[LightWave93]

old chap you've actually got nothing to lose if you for a moment try normal_person's approach to the world. You and me both don't have girlfriends. There's nowhere to go but up when we are in the mud trying not to hit the tripwires.

 

Why not swallow the pride for a moment and try his approach? I'm going to apply his knowledge to my dating game.

 

It's a load of crap on the basis that these women have no possible way of knowing my social, romantic etc status if there is no interaction taking place, much less know about the type of friends I have, where I sleep etc. It's absurd. There is some merit to what he says, but it's nowhere near as prevalent as he makes it out to be. Furthermore, I honestly don't believe he has much of an accurate picture of me, and has focused solely on negative points on elements which could also be positives.

 

Anyway; went out last night, it was alright. I think maybe three girls tried to dance with me but...signs, don't understand them in those environments.

[basil67]

Anyway; went out last night, it was alright. I think maybe three girls tried to dance with me but...signs, don't understand them in those environments.

 

Approx three girls tried to dance with you. And you rejected them???

 

Tell us more about what happened and how you were feeling. What didn't you understand? It could be a clue as to what's going on for you.

[basil67]

I'm going to apply his knowledge to my dating game.

 

Be careful - you may come off looking like a bit of a tosser. From this woman's perspective, a lot of what he's written is not what I see in real life. After all, we're all supposed to be clamouring for doctors....

[clia]

So we'll just add peoples' perceptions of you to the never ending list of things that definitely are not the issue. Since this thread has seemed to exhaust every possibility, why don't you provide a list of things that you think might be the problem, and everyone can just stick to those to save time.

 

I like this idea. Let's do this.

[LightWave93]

Approx three girls tried to dance with you. And you rejected them???

 

Tell us more about what happened and how you were feeling. What didn't you understand? It could be a clue as to what's going on for you.

 

The first thing that happened when I entered the club was a group of girls screamed and may have looked in my direction, though perhaps I'm being too hopeful!! I was focused on having a good time for the most part, whilst looking after two people who were a little worse for wear. It's possible at least three girls tried to dance with me; I got shouldered by one woman pretty hard but she had been dancing with a group of lads for ages, so I couldn't determine a motive (if any). Another group of girls had looked in my direction a few times and got a bit closer, but not close enough for me to gauge if they trying to get my attention. I walked past a third group and I'm pretty sure I heard one say "He's hot", but that could have been about anyone. Lastly, at one point a female friend of mine kissed me on the cheek in an affectionate way, and apparently she noticed that another girl had been looking at me and seemed upset when that happened, apparently giving my friend "evil eyes" a bit later on. I can't tell if any of these were genuine demonstrations of interest, still. It was a quieter night so perhaps I stood out more, maybe the medication is working and I'm giving off a better "vibe". Maybe it was pure luck or coincidence.

 

I like this idea. Let's do this.

 

I believe I've done it before, but my suggestions were refuted. However...

 

 

Obviously, there's an increasingly lack of confidence in this area. Every other aspect of my life is relatively sound and in terms of personal development I've gone above and beyond what I ever expected to achieve socially, academically, professionally etc, so I have a lot to feel good about, but romance / sexual relationships success is the one thing I haven't achieved. As the years have gone by and I've observed the people around me more, it's been upsetting to find I haven't had the "typical" love life of a young adult / university student. Sure, not everyone gets laid 24/7, but in a world with Tinder etc, I feel I've missed a lot of opportunities. Thus, I've felt "inadequate".

 

My depression will have contributed some, but I believe this is in check now (after a really bad spell a few months back, I seem to have reached a high I haven't felt in forever). I don't know exactly as it's never stopped me from going out and doing things, interacting with people etc, and I've never outwardly displayed this "weakness", and depressed people are successful all the time, but I'm not disowning the fact it's possible to have had some effect.

 

I've also felt inadequate to other men. It'll come as no surprise that I'm not the "laddish" type, more the quiet rogue / gentlemen, but the former appears to be the more popular and attractive style at the moment.

 

Appearance wise it's taken a while to find a style, but I think this has been on point for at least a year+ now.

 

Then there's the lack of interactions. Despite all that I do, I rarely seem to meet single, attractive women. Being a Comp Sci student, that worked against me.

[Garcon1986]

I think you should have pursued one of those women that looked longingly at you eh? You can't verify that they were or were not interested in you unless you go check it yourself. I get no looks in the bar so I applaud you old chap.

[LightWave93]

I think you should have pursued one of those women that looked longingly at you eh? You can't verify that they were or were not interested in you unless you go check it yourself. I get no looks in the bar so I applaud you old chap.

 

I didn't see any longing stares, just glances in my direction and nothing that really could be seen as interest.

[some_username1]

Be careful - you may come off looking like a bit of a tosser. From this woman's perspective, a lot of what he's written is not what I see in real life. After all, we're all supposed to be clamouring for doctors....

 

I see it all the time- down my local gym for example it is so pronounced that it was hard not to notice that the smaller guys either turn up and train on their own or wirh their mates who are of similar stature whereas the guys who are as tall as they are wide are the ones who turn up and train with women in tow. You also never see the bigger guys hanging out and goofing off with the smaller ones, everyone seems to be with people who are of similar stature/looks.

 

There is a saying "birds of a feather flock together" that covers this phenomenon of people on the same level of the social hierarchy naturally gravitating to each other. At the very extreme end of the example scale you won't see pro-athletes hanging out with tramps in shop door ways if only because once you are in your hierarchy your everyday business generally keeps you in the company of the people who are on the same level as you.

 

That being said I don't think people are as self aware to be so cynical about climbing the social hierarchy as normal_person is suggesting and it may be that the more successful you are the more this sort of stuff matters. He makes himself sound successful so that is perhaps why his girlfriend looked to others for approval of his status, becsuse dating him is viewed as a business decision as much as a matter of the heart whereas the woman who is into arts and crafts who is dating the struggling musician doesn't care whether he has any friends or not or what her parents think because material gain amd security for future offspring is less of a concern and it is simply about how he makes her feel and nothing else.

 

Horses for courses etc.

[normal person]

Given the rest of this paragrah, I suspect you're being sarcastic here. Yet you you've just described the reality of the choices of all my friends. We've all married normal guys who, while they are doing well in their own fields, aren't the top of anything...nor are they 'powerful'. All these guys have good personalities and are great fun to hang out with but I wouldn't say that "everyone loves them".

 

Splitting hairs. By definition most people end up with someone "normal." The implication is that most people, if they could have the option to date someone who it was understood had a good personality, would rather that person be successful, well liked, well respected, etc. Let's say there's a set of twins with the same great personality. One's a well respected surgeon, the other's a parking lot attendant. Don't tell me people don't think of them differently, or that one isn’t more desirable. I’m sure your husbands are all nice, great people. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if they all made 2x more money than they do now, though.

 

As I said, you can be the nicest guy on Earth, but everyone else in town thinks you're a coward, or you're broke, or you're weak, women aren't going to look over it all just because you're so, so nice. This is just a basic observance of the principle, there is a spectrum.

 

On a personal level, I'd never even consider dating a guy like you list at the top. My love language is quality time and none of them would be in the position to give it. And besides, nobody is THAT successful without making their goal #1. But as a partner, I will not accept being #2

 

I understand. I'm assuming you're at different stage in life. See how many 25 year old university girls would jump at the opportunity to "date down," or commit to a guy everyone else viewed as socially and/or romantically inept, and/or had a poor life trajectory. Ask a 23 year old girl with 50K Instagram followers if she'll date a very nice, sweet, guy who happens to have a bad haircut, outdated clothes, few friends, who all the other girls think is "creepy."

These things matter to 16-33 year olds no matter how many married women want to chime in saying it doesn't matter to them now. My girlfriend’s friend (very nice, smart, successful, attractive) started dating a nice guy who had just graduated from a prestigious law school, but wouldn’t start working as an associate at the good firm for 6 months. In the interim he’d only be working as a clerk at a lesser firm. She debated whether or not she should continue dating him on this alone.

 

This is not an indictment of people who don’t have an active desire for a partner to be as described. But let's not pretend like if things were the other way, and a guy was seemingly not well liked, struggled to find his place socially, had a lot effeminate tendencies, and/or wasn't on a great trajectory, that most women would be just fine with this.

 

Be careful - you may come off looking like a bit of a tosser. From this woman's perspective, a lot of what he's written is not what I see in real life.

 

From what I've seen and experienced having been deeply immersed in it for the past 15 years, it is. I've had very few problems, I've learned from the ones I did have, and I've been yet to be called a tosser by anyone. Quite the opposite, actually. Call me names all you want, I have achieved what OP desires tenfold without being mean to women, without wasting womens' time, without using women, paying all the bills, while sometimes being fodder for their games and disrespect. I'm not the tosser you're looking for, I just know the harsh realities of the dating landscape. I think it's counterproductive for this thread to disregard the inherent shallowness and less desirable aspects of human nature that OP will invariably encounter. Whether we like these aspects of society or not, they exist and need to be navigated for him to get what he wants.

 

After all, we're all supposed to be clamouring for doctors....

 

Are you suggesting this is a stereotype I just made up? That there isn't a large contingent of young, single women who would prefer to date a doctor? I understand that this isn't the case for you now, or never was, but give me a little credit, I don't think it's warping reality to suggest most womens' desires are correlated to a man's success, prestige, earning power, social status. It's been played out and reinforced in real life and across the media as long as I've been alive.

 

If you think I'm wrong, why not give some non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary and I'll shut up, listen, and learn. I'm sure you, the OP, and a dozen others would be happy to prove me wrong at this point. Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll eat my words. Open invitation to all.

[normal person]

It's a load of crap on the basis that these women have no possible way of knowing my social, romantic etc status if there is no interaction taking place, much less know about the type of friends I have, where I sleep etc. It's absurd.

 

You mean, other than every person you know who knows these things about you. So basically anyone who knows you in person at the present moment, plus those who have heard or deduced it tangentially.

 

There is some merit to what he says, but it's nowhere near as prevalent as he makes it out to be. Furthermore, I honestly don't believe he has much of an accurate picture of me,

 

What do you think the accurate portrayal is, then?

 

and has focused solely on negative points on elements

 

Of course we're focusing on negatives, presumably they're the source of your problems.

 

which could also be positives.

 

Explain this further. If they were positive, do you think you'd be in this situation?

 

Anyway; went out last night, it was alright. I think maybe three girls tried to dance with me but...signs, don't understand them in those environments.

 

What's so hard to understand? If you admit can't interpret this, is it not reasonable to suggest that you perhaps misinterpret other things too?

 

I believe I've done it before, but my suggestions were refuted. However...

 

Seems to be a theme on both sides of this discussion.

 

Obviously, there's an increasingly lack of confidence in this area. [...] Thus, I've felt "inadequate".

 

So like when I said your issue seemed like it could be confidence/insecurity and you refuted it?

 

I've also felt inadequate to other men. It'll come as no surprise that I'm not the "laddish" type, more the quiet rogue / gentlemen, but the former appears to be the more popular and attractive style at the moment.

 

So like when it was suggested that you lacked "masculine energy," and that your behaviors and seemingly lack of masculine friends could give you a feminine reputation/aura, and you refuted it?

 

Then there's the lack of interactions. Despite all that I do, I rarely seem to meet single, attractive women. Being a Comp Sci student, that worked against me.

 

What about the girls at the club who you thought were receptive to you?

[some_username1]

Splitting hairs. By definition most people end up with someone "normal." The implication is that most people, if they could have the option to date someone who it was understood had a good personality, would rather that person be successful, well liked, well respected, etc. Let's say there's a set of twins with the same great personality. One's a well respected surgeon, the other's a parking lot attendant. Don't tell me people don't think of them differently, or that one isn’t more desirable. I’m sure your husbands are all nice, great people. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if they all made 2x more money than they do now, though.

 

As I said, you can be the nicest guy on Earth, but everyone else in town thinks you're a coward, or you're broke, or you're weak, women aren't going to look over it all just because you're so, so nice. This is just a basic observance of the principle, there is a spectrum.

 

 

 

I understand. I'm assuming you're at different stage in life. See how many 25 year old university girls would jump at the opportunity to "date down," or commit to a guy everyone else viewed as socially and/or romantically inept, and/or had a poor life trajectory. Ask a 23 year old girl with 50K Instagram followers if she'll date a very nice, sweet, guy who happens to have a bad haircut, outdated clothes, few friends, who all the other girls think is "creepy."

These things matter to 16-33 year olds no matter how many married women want to chime in saying it doesn't matter to them now. My girlfriend’s friend (very nice, smart, successful, attractive) started dating a nice guy who had just graduated from a prestigious law school, but wouldn’t start working as an associate at the good firm for 6 months. In the interim he’d only be working as a clerk at a lesser firm. She debated whether or not she should continue dating him on this alone.

 

This is not an indictment of people who don’t have an active desire for a partner to be as described. But let's not pretend like if things were the other way, and a guy was seemingly not well liked, struggled to find his place socially, had a lot effeminate tendencies, and/or wasn't on a great trajectory, that most women would be just fine with this.

 

 

 

From what I've seen and experienced having been deeply immersed in it for the past 15 years, it is. I've had very few problems, I've learned from the ones I did have, and I've been yet to be called a tosser by anyone. Quite the opposite, actually. Call me names all you want, I have achieved what OP desires tenfold without being mean to women, without wasting womens' time, without using women, paying all the bills, while sometimes being fodder for their games and disrespect. I'm not the tosser you're looking for, I just know the harsh realities of the dating landscape. I think it's counterproductive for this thread to disregard the inherent shallowness and less desirable aspects of human nature that OP will invariably encounter. Whether we like these aspects of society or not, they exist and need to be navigated for him to get what he wants.

 

 

 

Are you suggesting this is a stereotype I just made up? That there isn't a large contingent of young, single women who would prefer to date a doctor? I understand that this isn't the case for you now, or never was, but give me a little credit, I don't think it's warping reality to suggest most womens' desires are correlated to a man's success, prestige, earning power, social status. It's been played out and reinforced in real life and across the media as long as I've been alive.

 

If you think I'm wrong, why not give some non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary and I'll shut up, listen, and learn. I'm sure you, the OP, and a dozen others would be happy to prove me wrong at this point. Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll eat my words. Open invitation to all.

 

Sheesh, who cares what a 23 year old with 50k instagram followers thinks? I see where you are coming from but you are illustrating your argument from the most superficial angle possible which I don't think is helping it's effectiveness. People are people and for every person who thinks that the number of instagram followers someone has means they are someone to be respected there is someone else who would automatically not listen to that 23 year old because they can make judgements about the type of person they are to have cultivated 50k followers in the first place.

 

You need to try and make your argument cover a spectrum of walks of life because I am confident that among high achievers or shallow youth what you write probably holds true but while I see people typecast themselves in the groups they hang around in I have enough life experience in my 30+ years to know that there is more substance to people's wants and needs in what they look for in a partner than mere social status and what that person can do for them in a material sense. Yes it's nice if they have cool friends etc but trust me, i've worked with enough programmers who have a steady if unspectacular income but few friends and poor social skills who have managed to attract and marry quality women. People like what they like and I don't think you can quantify that as easily as you seem to be trying to do. Maybe in your circles that is what people care about but extrapolating that onto the whole population is not valid from where I'm standing.

[elaine567]

I think you need to lose the female friends.

Its not a good look and they are no doubt putting off other women from approaching or showing any interest.

A guy out with girls, is either gay or one of the girls is his gf, that is the assumption... a female friend kissing you affectionately on the cheek is not doing you any favours either... She claimed you as hers...

 

 

Fine for youngsters to go out in mixed gangs, but you are getting a tad old for that. Most will assume there is a gf in the bunch, as at 25 so many are already paired off.

 

Personally I would not want to date a guy with a gaggle of close female friends, I guess other women will not want to do so either.

[LightWave93]

If you think I'm wrong, why not give some non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary and I'll shut up, listen, and learn. I'm sure you, the OP, and a dozen others would be happy to prove me wrong at this point. Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll eat my words. Open invitation to all.

 

How about you drop the discussion? It's not added anything helpful.

 

You mean, other than every person you know who knows these things about you. So basically anyone who knows you in person at the present moment, plus those who have heard or deduced it tangentially.

 

Oh for the love of everything.

 

normal_person, I've told you multiple times in this thread; not everybody knows. A select few do. Stop assuming I talk to everyone about this, or they all have nothing better to do but inform all their friends, family, peers, dog, cat, guinea pig that I've spoken to them about my issue with dating.

 

So like when it was suggested that you lacked "masculine energy," and that your behaviors and seemingly lack of masculine friends could give you a feminine reputation/aura, and you refuted it?

 

There are many ways of being "masculine", and it's not limited to being boisterous. I also happen to know many men who are way more feminine than myself that get women. Just stop.

 

What about the girls at the club who you thought were receptive to you?

 

POSSIBLY, receptive. That's not meeting them anyway; that's just being in a public venue together. I was referring to the events etc that I do.

 

Maybe in your circles that is what people care about but extrapolating that onto the whole population is not valid from where I'm standing.

 

Thank you.

 

I think you need to lose the female friends.

 

No.

 

Fine for youngsters to go out in mixed gangs, but you are getting a tad old for that. Most will assume there is a gf in the bunch, as at 25 so many are already paired off.

 

I always go out in a mixed group. There is always multiple guys with us. Yes, some of the "masculine" ones!

 

And they have NO WAY OF KNOWING MY AGE.

[normal person]

I see where you are coming from but you are illustrating your argument from the most superficial angle possible which I don't think is helping it's effectiveness.

 

I used a throwaway extreme example because when I used a more down to Earth statement like "young women are inherently concerned about their social status and thus would probably prefer to date successful, prestigious, respected men (like doctors), people laughed like that was inaccurate. The point is, young women want to maintain, reinforce, or upgrade their social status. They don't do that by "dating down." That's what I'm trying to illustrate.

 

You need to try and make your argument cover a spectrum

 

I literally wrote:

 

This is just a basic observance of the principle, there is a spectrum.

 

I'm typing enough, do you really want a whole dissertation? I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt that they're intelligent enough to extract the principals of the statement and apply them to current situation.

 

of walks of life because I am confident that among high achievers or shallow youth what you write probably holds true

 

OP is at a university. So, everyone around him is presumably a high achiever and probably just as shallow as anyone else is at that age, which is to say, probably a good deal.

 

but while I see people typecast themselves in the groups they hang around in I have enough life experience in my 30+ years to know that there is more substance to people's wants and needs in what they look for in a partner than mere social status and what that person can do for them in a material sense.

 

Of course there's more to it. But to pretend like it's not at all a large factor in such situations wouldn't be accurate either. Here's all I'm trying to say: young women care about a man's social status. What he does, who he's friends with, his socioeconomic status, how much money he makes/has, etc, if other men respect him or exclude him, etc. If there are red flags, they're less likely to want to date him.

 

Yes it's nice if they have cool friends etc but trust me, i've worked with enough programmers who have a steady if unspectacular income but few friends and poor social skills who have managed to attract and marry quality women. People like what they like and I don't think you can quantify that as easily as you seem to be trying to do. Maybe in your circles that is what people care about but extrapolating that onto the whole population is not valid from where I'm standing.

 

I'm not saying it's the end of the world or that it's a law of nature. These things matter less and less to people (women especially) the older they get. But we're talking about girls in their early 20s, here. They're at their peak sexual market value and peak shallowness. That's not the age when you would expect most of them to settle for less.

[ZA Dater]

I think you need to lose the female friends.

Its not a good look and they are no doubt putting off other women from approaching or showing any interest.

A guy out with girls, is either gay or one of the girls is his gf, that is the assumption... a female friend kissing you affectionately on the cheek is not doing you any favours either... She claimed you as hers...

 

 

Fine for youngsters to go out in mixed gangs, but you are getting a tad old for that. Most will assume there is a gf in the bunch, as at 25 so many are already paired off.

 

Personally I would not want to date a guy with a gaggle of close female friends, I guess other women will not want to do so either.

 

 

 

Ladies don't approach, guys must approach them, grovel and hope they are selected but most likely they will get kicked in the teeth.

[normal person]

How about you drop the discussion? It's not added anything helpful.

 

If you told me why I'm wrong, we'd all learn.

Or, it's not added anything you think would be helpful, or anything you're comfortable with. But considering you have no success, don't you think you're awfully quick to dismiss basically everything?

 

normal_person, I've told you multiple times in this thread; not everybody knows. A select few do. Stop assuming I talk to everyone about this, or they all have nothing better to do but inform all their friends, family, peers, dog, cat, guinea pig that I've spoken to them about my issue with dating.

 

But that assumption could be a big part of your problem. I know you think no one knows because you've only told a few people, you're sure your friends don't say anything to each other, talk privately, notice that you're never dating anyone, notice that you have a strangely large number of female friends, form opinions about it internally, speculate as to why, apply a judgment, etc. But I'm not sold that you realize peoples' perceptions of themselves and other peoples' perceptions of them can be very different. Sort of like you how you're absolutely positive people can't tell the difference between a 19 and 25 year old, when in reality, it's not so difficult. Or how you think I'm a waste of time, and I think I'm telling you the uncomfortable things you need to hear. Or how I think I'm informative, and people probably hate me for writing so much.

 

Before you fly off the handle, consider this. I have a friend like you that I mentioned earlier. Tall, dark, handsome, people think he's objectively attractive and nice. He's very friendly with all the other wives and girlfriends. He takes more than just a general interest in playing with everyone's kids. He loves cooking. He's non-confrontational, won't stick his neck out, the type who would rather stay in line than assert dominance, etc. Very sweet, nice, guy. He rarely, if ever, dates anyone, and never even talks about how he never dates any women. Despite never talking about it, he has a reputation amongst people (female friends especially) for being almost asexual, objectively attractive but not someone who they'd want to date, "too sweet," etc. Ask if you'd date him and you'd chuckle, sort of thing. People are observant. They notice things you don't think they notice, talk, discuss, gossip, form opinions which are unfounded or not, tell other people, etc. This shapes peoples' perceptions of you. I don't really think my friend knows women think of him that way, or has ever considered it. And it's not like most people would offer up that information to him. If he asked or was troubled by it, most people, female friends would probably wouldn't tell him (I would), or would offer soft advice (unlike mine to you) akin to "You're really sweet! Don't worry, I'm sure the right girl will come along," when in privacy, they're saying "Dude needs to grow some balls and take control. If I was single I would not be feeling his whole vibe."

 

 

Your situation as you've described seems to hold a lot of resemblance to his, the way I see things. How do you think it's different, and how can you be so certain? That's why I've yet to believe you're in total control of your image in other peoples' eyes, because no one is. Do you honestly think you're 100% certain that in this world where no one will date you, that you know exactly how everyone perceives you? I could ask my best friends of 20+ years how they perceive me, and I'm sure I'd be at least a little surprised to hear things I wasn't expecting.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, but I am saying considering you're in the situation you're in, totally clueless, with absolutely no other explanation, you could at least consider the possibility that you might be wrong about something, especially something you can never be sure of. We've exhausted the list. If everything you do is perfect, and everything in your life is as you describe, you shouldn't be in this predicament. Yet you are. So seemingly you're living some cruel simulation (unlikely), or you're misinterpreting something. Do you think it's unreasonable that things might not be as they seem, to some degree? And if not, what could possible be the problem?

 

There are many ways of being "masculine", and it's not limited to being boisterous.

 

I know. I didn't say anything about being boisterous. Potentially if your dating problems stem from masculinity or lack thereof, they aren't a function of what you think is or isn't masculine, they are a function of the perceptions of the people who want or don't want to date you with regards to masculinity. I'm not saying this is your problem, but it could be.

 

I also happen to know many men who are way more feminine than myself that get women. Just stop.

 

Ok. What are they doing differently? What's the difference? Can you emulate their success? Are they the rules that prove the exception?

 

POSSIBLY, receptive. That's not meeting them anyway; that's just being in a public venue together. I was referring to the events etc that I do.

 

Ok, but here's a thought. If you can't get a woman to save your life, if you have that much trouble and indecision deciphering social and non-verbal cues, how do you trust your instincts such conviction with regards to shooting everything else down? If everything you've done or thought has given you no success, isn't it a little silly to act like the utmost authority on this situation that you can't for the life of you figure out? If I were in your shoes, I would carefully consider every post and suggestion, because I would accept that I probably didn't know much about it, using my lack of success as a barometer. But you seem to act like there's no possible way you could ever be wrong about any of this, even defiantly. And you still don't have what you want.

Edited January 10, 2019 by normal person

[LightWave93]

But that assumption could be a big part of your problem. I know you think no one knows because you've only told a few people, you're sure your friends don't say anything to each other, talk privately, notice that you're never dating anyone, notice that you have a strangely large number of female friends, form opinions about it internally, speculate as to why, apply a judgment, etc.

 

I've already corrected myself by stating that I actually have a rather balance proportion to male-female friends.

 

Your situation as you've described seems to hold a lot of resemblance to his, the way I see things.

 

The way YOU see it.

 

From how you describe your friend, he's an individual without a backbone. I've met men like this. I am not them.

 

How do you think it's different, and how can you be so certain?

 

Because I have a far greater understanding of the type of people I'm friends with, our relationship dynamics, our interactions, our lifestyle, our loyalty to one another, our commitment to bring out the best in one-another, to have confidence that they are not secretly discussing among themselves or outsiders my current predicament.

 

Feel free to judge the human race by your own experiences, but I'm not as cynical.

 

If everything you do is perfect, and everything in your life is as you describe, you shouldn't be in this predicament.

 

And once again, I seemingly have to reiterate the fact that I don't believe that I am perfect or right about anything. I simply have a better understanding of how my life is playing out to be able to make accurate judgement on certain aspects.

 

Ok. What are they doing differently? What's the difference? Can you emulate their success? Are they the rules that prove the exception?

 

I don't have a clue, but you could also argue that not every girl is after someone who fits your definition of masculine. It may be the case they just so happen to come across the type of women that suits them best, and I simply haven't been able to do so.

 

You've got to bear in mind I fit in the middle ground between introvert and extrovert, geek and...whatever the opposite of a geek is. I never mingled with the top of the social hierarchy because of social anxiety / lack of confidence, for a time, and life decisions (namely, studying a nerd/male dominated subject), as well as a traumatic experience with an ex just prior to starting uni (which negatively effected my social life). On the flip side, I've always had an affection towards the "downtrodden", the shy, the less popular, because I've been in their shoes. I've naturally gravitated towards people on the lower-to-mid end of the spectrum, with a handful of exceptions. Thus, it could be argued I'm a "jack of all trades", for lack of better way to describe it; I don't attract nerdy women at conventions because I may come across as too confident for them, but I don't attract the party girls because I'm not the 6'4, build jock.

 

if you have that much trouble and indecision deciphering social and non-verbal cues

 

I think you misunderstand; I generally don't have difficulties identifying clues EXCEPT FOR in bar / night club situations. I didn't start partying until 22, therefore I've had less time to grow accustomed to the signals in those environments. Furthermore, it's only within the last six months that...whatever these experiences are...have been occurring. If indeed I've got to the point where my presence in these is noticed, then great...but I can't pick up on what means what.

 

THAT SAID, I've also seen how women act around men they are attracted to, and the difference is night and day. THAT ALSO SAID, it could possibly be that women are attracted to myself, however around ME in particular they have a different way of showing it.

 

But you seem to act like there's no possible way you could ever be wrong about any of this, even defiantly. And you still don't have what you want.

 

I stopped over a friend's house last night after our evening at the night club. This morning she was talking to me about some past experiences etc. Without prompt, she said the following (paraphrased);

 

"I don't know if you're aware of this LightWave93, but there's something about you that is very attractive. You're not a super model of course, but you just have this pull to you that I can't describe. You could get any girl you wanted."

 

Now before it's even suggested, there's no way I would ever get with this particular friend, but it's an interesting comment to make non-the-less. She's also not very aware of my struggles, only that I've asked her to wing me. Furthermore, her statement echo's similar comments I've received before.

[ZA Dater]

But I'm not sold that you realize peoples' perceptions of themselves and other peoples' perceptions of them can be very different. Sort of like you how you're absolutely positive people can't tell the difference between a 19 and 25 year old, when in reality, it's not so difficult. Or how you think I'm a waste of time, and I think I'm telling you the uncomfortable things you need to hear. Or how I think I'm informative, and people probably hate me for writing so much.

 

Before you fly off the handle, consider this. I have a friend like you that I mentioned earlier. Tall, dark, handsome, people think he's objectively attractive and nice. He's very friendly with all the other wives and girlfriends. He takes more than just a general interest in playing with everyone's kids. He loves cooking. He's non-confrontational, won't stick his neck out, the type who would rather stay in line than assert dominance, etc. Very sweet, nice, guy. He rarely, if ever, dates anyone, and never even talks about how he never dates any women. Despite never talking about it, he has a reputation amongst people (female friends especially) for being almost asexual, objectively attractive but not someone who they'd want to date, "too sweet," etc. Ask if you'd date him and you'd chuckle, sort of thing. People are observant. They notice things you don't think they notice, talk, discuss, gossip, form opinions which are unfounded or not, tell other people, etc. This shapes peoples' perceptions of you. I don't really think my friend knows women think of him that way, or has ever considered it. And it's not like most people would offer up that information to him. If he asked or was troubled by it, most people, female friends would probably wouldn't tell him (I would), or would offer soft advice (unlike mine to you) akin to "You're really sweet! Don't worry, I'm sure the right girl will come along," when in privacy, they're saying "Dude needs to grow some balls and take control. If I was single I would not be feeling his whole vibe."

 

Your situation as you've described seems to hold a lot of resemblance to his, the way I see things. How do you think it's different, and how can you be so certain? That's why I've yet to believe you're in total control of your image in other peoples' eyes, because no one is. Do you honestly think you're 100% certain that in this world where no one will date you, that you know exactly how everyone perceives you? I could ask my best friends of 20+ years how they perceive me, and I'm sure I'd be at least a little surprised to hear things I wasn't expecting.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, but I am saying considering you're in the situation you're in, totally clueless, with absolutely no other explanation, you could at least consider the possibility that you might be wrong about something, especially something you can never be sure of. We've exhausted the list. If everything you do is perfect, and everything in your life is as you describe, you shouldn't be in this predicament. Yet you are. So seemingly you're living some cruel simulation (unlikely), or you're misinterpreting something. Do you think it's unreasonable that things might not be as they seem, to some degree? And if not, what could possible be the problem?

 

 

 

I know. I didn't say anything about being boisterous. Potentially if your dating problems stem from masculinity or lack thereof, they aren't a function of what you think is or isn't masculine, they are a function of the perceptions of the people who want or don't want to date you with regards to masculinity. I'm not saying this is your problem, but it could be.

 

 

 

Ok. What are they doing differently? What's the difference? Can you emulate their success? Are they the rules that prove the exception?

 

 

 

Ok, but here's a thought. If you can't get a woman to save your life, if you have that much trouble and indecision deciphering social and non-verbal cues, how do you trust your instincts such conviction with regards to shooting everything else down? If everything you've done or thought has given you no success, isn't it a little silly to act like the utmost authority on this situation that you can't for the life of you figure out? If I were in your shoes, I would carefully consider every post and suggestion, because I would accept that I probably didn't know much about it, using my lack of success as a barometer. But you seem to act like there's no possible way you could ever be wrong about any of this, even defiantly. And you still don't have what you want.

 

 

I don't often agree with you but I do here. The perception of other is never the same as our own perception at least I know somewhere in NYC there is a guy like me to some extent!

 

 

OP the problem is you haven't had helpful perceptions from people around you, they tell you what you want to hear not what you need to hear, unfortunately people feel the need, especially women to sugar coat opinions of guys, hence in this respect I don't buy into the opinion of women when they go on about how they perceive me.

 

 

The sad thing people like Normal persons friend should not be judged like that but society has programmed people to adopt supposed norms of perceiving people. Anyone who doesn't conform, well that's that really.

[ZA Dater]

I've already corrected myself by stating that I actually have a rather balance proportion to male-female friends.

 

 

 

The way YOU see it.

 

From how you describe your friend, he's an individual without a backbone. I've met men like this. I am not them.

 

 

 

Because I have a far greater understanding of the type of people I'm friends with, our relationship dynamics, our interactions, our lifestyle, our loyalty to one another, our commitment to bring out the best in one-another, to have confidence that they are not secretly discussing among themselves or outsiders my current predicament.

 

Feel free to judge the human race by your own experiences, but I'm not as cynical.

 

 

 

And once again, I seemingly have to reiterate the fact that I don't believe that I am perfect or right about anything. I simply have a better understanding of how my life is playing out to be able to make accurate judgement on certain aspects.

 

 

 

I don't have a clue, but you could also argue that not every girl is after someone who fits your definition of masculine. It may be the case they just so happen to come across the type of women that suits them best, and I simply haven't been able to do so.

 

You've got to bear in mind I fit in the middle ground between introvert and extrovert, geek and...whatever the opposite of a geek is. I never mingled with the top of the social hierarchy because of social anxiety / lack of confidence, for a time, and life decisions (namely, studying a nerd/male dominated subject), as well as a traumatic experience with an ex just prior to starting uni (which negatively effected my social life). On the flip side, I've always had an affection towards the "downtrodden", the shy, the less popular, because I've been in their shoes. I've naturally gravitated towards people on the lower-to-mid end of the spectrum, with a handful of exceptions. Thus, it could be argued I'm a "jack of all trades", for lack of better way to describe it; I don't attract nerdy women at conventions because I may come across as too confident for them, but I don't attract the party girls because I'm not the 6'4, build jock.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstand; I generally don't have difficulties identifying clues EXCEPT FOR in bar / night club situations. I didn't start partying until 22, therefore I've had less time to grow accustomed to the signals in those environments. Furthermore, it's only within the last six months that...whatever these experiences are...have been occurring. If indeed I've got to the point where my presence in these is noticed, then great...but I can't pick up on what means what.

 

THAT SAID, I've also seen how women act around men they are attracted to, and the difference is night and day. THAT ALSO SAID, it could possibly be that women are attracted to myself, however around ME in particular they have a different way of showing it.

 

 

 

I stopped over a friend's house last night after our evening at the night club. This morning she was talking to me about some past experiences etc. Without prompt, she said the following (paraphrased);

 

"I don't know if you're aware of this LightWave93, but there's something about you that is very attractive. You're not a super model of course, but you just have this pull to you that I can't describe. You could get any girl you wanted."

 

Now before it's even suggested, there's no way I would ever get with this particular friend, but it's an interesting comment to make non-the-less. She's also not very aware of my struggles, only that I've asked her to wing me. Furthermore, her statement echo's similar comments I've received before.

 

 

 

I have backone and am still perceived in much the same way...back bone has nothing to do with perception.

[basil67]

Splitting hairs. By definition most people end up with someone "normal." The implication is that most people, if they could have the option to date someone who it was understood had a good personality, would rather that person be successful, well liked, well respected, etc. Let's say there's a set of twins with the same great personality. One's a well respected surgeon, the other's a parking lot attendant. Don't tell me people don't think of them differently, or that one isn’t more desirable. I’m sure your husbands are all nice, great people. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if they all made 2x more money than they do now, though.

 

For your argument, you're comparing a respected surgeon with a parking attendant. Really? What about the 90% of people who represent the rest of society? Where do they fit in? Seems to me like you're using extreme arguments so that you can prove a weak theory.

 

As I said, you can be the nicest guy on Earth, but everyone else in town thinks you're a coward, or you're broke, or you're weak, women aren't going to look over it all just because you're so, so nice. This is just a basic observance of the principle, there is a spectrum.

 

Sure. But you don't need to be a highly successful surgeon etc to not fall into this category. Again, most of society is somewhat successful and have friends.

 

I understand. I'm assuming you're at different stage in life. See how many 25 year old university girls would jump at the opportunity to "date down," or commit to a guy everyone else viewed as socially and/or romantically inept, and/or had a poor life trajectory. Ask a 23 year old girl with 50K Instagram followers if she'll date a very nice, sweet, guy who happens to have a bad haircut, outdated clothes, few friends, who all the other girls think is "creepy."

 

Again with the extremes. Let's talk about the 90% of people who are 'normal' instead of trying to prove your point with the misfits

 

These things matter to 16-33 year olds no matter how many married women want to chime in saying it doesn't matter to them now. My girlfriend’s friend (very nice, smart, successful, attractive) started dating a nice guy who had just graduated from a prestigious law school, but wouldn’t start working as an associate at the good firm for 6 months. In the interim he’d only be working as a clerk at a lesser firm. She debated whether or not she should continue dating him on this alone.

 

"Nice" is not a word I'd use to describe your girlfriend's friend. Ugh.

 

I am the mother of a university student. She and her friends date regular guys. No doctors or lawyers, but good people and very presentable. She and her friends disprove your argument. And they'd probably hate your girlfriend's friend if she dumped one of their guy friends just because he had to work as a clerk for six months.

 

This is not an indictment of people who don’t have an active desire for a partner to be as described. But let's not pretend like if things were the other way, and a guy was seemingly not well liked, struggled to find his place socially, had a lot effeminate tendencies, and/or wasn't on a great trajectory, that most women would be just fine with this.

 

Again, let's talk about regular guys and not base your argument around misfits.

 

From what I've seen and experienced having been deeply immersed in it for the past 15 years, it is. I've had very few problems, I've learned from the ones I did have, and I've been yet to be called a tosser by anyone. Quite the opposite, actually. Call me names all you want, I have achieved what OP desires tenfold without being mean to women, without wasting womens' time, without using women, paying all the bills, while sometimes being fodder for their games and disrespect. I'm not the tosser you're looking for, I just know the harsh realities of the dating landscape. I think it's counterproductive for this thread to disregard the inherent shallowness and less desirable aspects of human nature that OP will invariably encounter. Whether we like these aspects of society or not, they exist and need to be navigated for him to get what he wants.

 

A person who considers whether others will add to their social capital before having them around will always be a tosser in my book.

 

If you think I'm wrong, why not give some non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary and I'll shut up, listen, and learn. I'm sure you, the OP, and a dozen others would be happy to prove me wrong at this point. Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll eat my words. Open invitation to all.

 

The irony of someone giving anecdotal evidence wanting non-anecdotal evidence as a rebuttal All I can give you is what I see in my friends, my daughter and her peers.

[LightWave93]

OP the problem is you haven't had helpful perceptions from people around you, they tell you what you want to hear not what you need to hear, unfortunately people feel the need, especially women to sugar coat opinions of guys, hence in this respect I don't buy into the opinion of women when they go on about how they perceive me.

 

Unfortunately we are never going to get anywhere if you continue to insist this is the case. I am truly, 100% confident that people, including mental health professionals and coaches, are not lying to me.

 

So either roll with that fact in mind, or politely back out. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm sick of this assumption skewering this thread.

[some_username1]

I used a throwaway extreme example because when I used a more down to Earth statement like "young women are inherently concerned about their social status and thus would probably prefer to date successful, prestigious, respected men (like doctors), people laughed like that was inaccurate. The point is, young women want to maintain, reinforce, or upgrade their social status. They don't do that by "dating down." That's what I'm trying to illustrate.

 

 

 

I literally wrote:

 

 

 

I'm typing enough, do you really want a whole dissertation? I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt that they're intelligent enough to extract the principals of the statement and apply them to current situation.

 

 

 

OP is at a university. So, everyone around him is presumably a high achiever and probably just as shallow as anyone else is at that age, which is to say, probably a good deal.

 

 

 

Of course there's more to it. But to pretend like it's not at all a large factor in such situations wouldn't be accurate either. Here's all I'm trying to say: young women care about a man's social status. What he does, who he's friends with, his socioeconomic status, how much money he makes/has, etc, if other men respect him or exclude him, etc. If there are red flags, they're less likely to want to date him.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's the end of the world or that it's a law of nature. These things matter less and less to people (women especially) the older they get. But we're talking about girls in their early 20s, here. They're at their peak sexual market value and peak shallowness. That's not the age when you would expect most of them to settle for less.

 

To be fair you were the one who mentioned 16 to 33 year olds originally so I think my points are valid at least for the upper bound of thst bracket and I can only speak for my own experiences of younger girls in university- the girls I hung about with weren't looking for hedge fund managers or future captains of industry, they wanted short term experiences with guys who interested them and that was a very weird and wonderful menagerie. Actual dating was very much out of the question with so much variety of men available.

 

Overall I can only really echo Bazil's comments and re-iterate that it seems you and the people you hang out with view human relations as very transactional, a business decision with the emphasis skewed very much more towards the "what have you done for me lately" viewpoint. That's fine if that is the world you feel comfortable in, thankfully I have little experience of it to that cynical degree. I suspect it may be a class thing, again only talking from my own experiences but the most 'genuine' people I have met and women i have dated have been from a normal/low income background because they really don't exhibit the behaviour you describe. They love unconditionally because they have more love than money. I dated a girl recently who was on the board of directors at the company where she worked and it was a totally different experience- she was like your friend, I was an emerging stock to her and she was deliberating whether to invest. The irony is that whilst I don't have much I was a total gentleman with her, took her out to dinner 3 times and picked up the tab every single time while she sat on her hands and didn't trouble her 70k+ income. A couple of days later she ghosted me. So on the whole I know which sort of woman I would rather date and hang out with. When it comes down to it having money and having class in the way that you conduct yourself are two totally different things and often strange bedfellows as your girlfriends friend rather corroborates!