Still no dates.

[clia]

Nothing. I stopped at her place, left the next morning.

 

She lived further away then everyone else. She was comfortable with me, I volunteered to walk her the rest of the way.

 

We're in contact, yes (phone and number), and I've seen her once for coffee since, then she traveled back home for the holidays. To be honest, this was one of the rare occasions I have kept in contact with someone after a night out.

 

You stayed the night at her house? How did that go? Where did you sleep?

 

How did going out for coffee come about? Did you ask her or did she ask you? Why do that rather than something more like a date? Do you plan to ask her out on a date?

[LightWave93]

You stayed the night at her house? How did that go? Where did you sleep?

 

See, I don't want to answer this because I know where's it going, but in the interest of transparency...

 

Nothing happened. I slept in her bed. She made it very clear nothing was to happen, and I respected her wishes.

 

How did going out for coffee come about? Did you ask her or did she ask you? Why do that rather than something more like a date? Do you plan to ask her out on a date?

 

I asked her to visit before she left. I do not intend to ask her out; it is clear our relationship is platonic.

 

EDIT:

 

Can I add that this only happened a few weeks ago and was a first time thing with a complete stranger? I often stay the night at female-friends homes, in their bed.

[ZA Dater]

I think in part your issue may be how you are perceived. I say this as someone who does have this issue, ladies will tell you nice things but never bad, the fact you sleep in their beds and nothing happens mean they perceive you as "harmless' in that context.

 

You are seen as a good guy but not a attractive dating guy. My guess is you don't conform to the normal guy in your area.

[PRW]

Nothing happened. I slept in her bed. She made it very clear nothing was to happen, and I respected her wishes.

 

Sorry man,...that's a Beta move. The final last words of every beta male who doesn't get the girl is "I respected her wishes". If you are going to spend the night at their place and don't intend to make it romantic then sleep in another room, another bed, or at least on the floor. To do what you did creates an image of weakness. To be in the same bed means that there would be romantic affection displayed even if it doesn't become full intercourse.

 

If you tell her, that if she means what she says, then you will have to insist on sleeping in another room, or bed, or on the floor. You might be surprised at how fast she changes her tune about the "nothing is going to happen". Sometimes women say that "nothing is going to happen" because they don't want to be the instigator,...sex happening is supposed to be the man's fault. But if she meant what she said then she would say, "Sure, go ahead and sleep in the other room, bed, or floor". Now there is no ambiguity and you know where you stand.

[ZA Dater]

Sorry man,...that's a Beta move. The final last words of every beta male who doesn't get the girl is "I respected her wishes". If you are going to spend the night at their place and don't intend to make it romantic then sleep in another room, another bed, or at least on the floor. To do what you did creates an image of weakness. To be in the same bed means that there would be romantic affection displayed even if it doesn't become full intercourse.

 

If you tell her, that if she means what she says, then you will have to insist on sleeping in another room, or bed, or on the floor. You might be surprised at how fast she changes her tune about the "nothing is going to happen". Sometimes women say that "nothing is going to happen" because they don't want to be the instigator,...sex happening is supposed to be the man's fault. But if she meant what she said then she would say, "Sure, go ahead and sleep in the other room, bed, or floor". Now there is no ambiguity and you know where you stand.

 

Maybe some truth to this but I find it ridiculous that there is a stupid amount of ambiguity.

[normal person]

I really don't have anything else to say to this. It's perfectly normal to establish platonic friendships with the opposite sex.

 

Yeah, it is. But it's rather abnormal for someone who's, by accounts of those friends, a nice, handsome, intelligent guy with everything going for him, to not experience any female inclination to convert any interaction from novel or platonic to romantic. I have plenty of good looking female friends who I don't date. Yes, I'll tell them when they look good and vice versa and it's just a forgettable pleasantry like it is for most people. None of us, if struggling, would look back and say "but Normal Person said I looked really good that one time, so why isn't anyone interested in me?" These things are throwaway comments between friends, not actual validations to hang your hat on.

 

That doesn't mean there hasn't been the occasional bit of sexual tension, New Year's kiss, and/or drunken whatever over the course of the years. That especially doesn't mean those girls and/or I struggle to find any other romantic interaction with other people. But that is the case with you. Your friends have a lot to say about you, but at the end of the day, they and (this is the real litmus test) no one else feel strongly enough for those things to be validated fully, or for something else to be overlooked.

 

Take whatever someone says with a grain of salt until they, or someone else, acts on it enough to convince you of its veracity. The proof is in the pudding. This isn't to imply that you look bad, it's just meant to suggest that you can't put too much faith in these things one way or the other.

 

**** me. You lot tell me to ask those closest to me what's up, but I get criticized when I do or told they may be lying. And the abundance of feedback I've received have been counselors, dating coaches and online.

 

That wasn't my advice, we aren't a monolith. "Us lot" collectively are not trying to tell you one message. I can't imagine too many circumstances where I'd advise a man to go around to everyone they knew advertising how insecure and incapable they were via solicitations for advice, help, and feedback. 'Might as well be a scarlet letter. Some people will suggest you do things, others might disagree and suggest others. Other people might just be suggesting things or they're unsure of or throwing darts at a wall, speculating because they're bored. I give my own advice. I don't necessarily agree with the advice of other posters. I also have basically no problems attracting or keeping women, online or in person, so I think I'm pretty well equipped to dispense advice here as I have an extensive proven track record for a guy who's not too far removed from your place in life. I've gotten and continue to get the things you're after. Although I should say, one thing this forum lacks is an efficient way to see who has a history of giving helpful advice, and who doesn't. It'd be very useful in situations like this.

 

For my money, the more confident and capable you are as a man, the more appealing you are. So if you're searching for answers from others close to you, seeking feedback/advice/help/answers, being needy, etc, you're doing much more harm than good as all you're doing is broadcasting your worst shortcomings. On a biological level, seeing this behavior from an adult is a huge turn off. This may seem like "toxic masculinity," but I do feel like in the grand scheme of things, it's good for a man to develop the tools to deal with problems internally or silently. There's a lot of utility in it in context of the world we live in. The bruise to his image that he might suffer from admitting incompetence or weakness might be too large to ever overcome in certain circumstances.

 

For example, if someone ever sees you cry or break down, or fail miserably, or get unnecessarily upset, you probably will never be viewed of as a worthwhile leader -- peoples' confidence in you will be shook. Similarly, if you tell all your female friends how bad you are with women, and seek their advice over your own judgments, it's a subconscious signal to them that you're incapable of figuring out the answers yourself, and you think they're better equipped than you are, and that women don't like you so there must be something wrong with you. Ergo, you aren't capable and lack confidence, and therefore aren't sexually viable. It's not as bad as crying, but it's somewhere on the spectrum of things that severely erode a man's sex appeal. People can think you look as handsome as anyone else out there, but if they also see overwhelming insecurity, the rest doesn't matter; it's over. You opened a Pandora's Box of insecurity. Women would not look at Brad Pitt the same way if he was constantly asking people for advice and feedback and getting sad, needy, and frustrated all the time, desperately pleading to know why no one likes his movies. It's a biological signifier of a lack of confidence in one's own abilities.

 

You can look great to a woman's eyes, but her ovaries will tell the true story. I reiterate my advice, be very cautious about how you seek answers. Do you really want all your friends and potential partners to get wind that you're not confident and incapable? Everyone not respecting your abilities to appeal to the opposite sex and infantilizing you ("You're such a great guy, you'll meet the right girl someday, don't worry"), subconsciously looking down on you, subtly conveying to everyone that you can't figure it out on your own ("He's that struggling guy I told you about -- give him a chance"), mentioning your problems amongst themselves and looking down on you as less than ("He just can't figure it out like everyone else, I feel so bad for him, poor guy!"), reinforcing your reputation around campus as "sexual pariah without answers who needs help" until it solidifies, giving you an aura of desperation that people can sense, but have no incentive to ever admit to sensing because 1). there is no benefit, and 2). the easier way to avoid saying it is to comment on how you're still objectively attractive (but fail to mention that that doesn't matter in under such circumstances). It seems counterintuitive, but that's just me. The the solution to your problem shouldn't be anything where the collateral damage is going to make things worse. Telling people you know that have problems with women seems like sexual suicide.

 

 

If I were you I'd try to solve my problems internally. I wouldn't hint to anyone that I wasn't equipped to solve my issues. I'd try to develop the tools, knowledge, ideas, and experiences necessary and learn from them. It wouldn't be a necessarily easy road, but in doing so I would take some pride in the struggle and subsequent success. Doing it on my own would be market validation and I'd derive confidence from achieving it, and I'd leverage that confidence further going forward. If that failed (and it might, because no one has all the answers), I'd seek assistance from someone very knowledgeable yet unrelated to my personal life to help guide me, and I'd push myself out of my comfort zone as much as possible. If that still failed, I then, maybe, would revaluate all previous choices and think of different plans of action. But I'd still be very, very reluctant to nuke any residual sex appeal I had by telling everyone I know, and risk contaminating all potential partners with the hard knowledge that I'm incapable.

 

You make too many assumptions.

 

Yet I have the things that you want and have done all the things you've expressed desire in doing -- do you think it's all by accident?

[PRW]

Maybe some truth to this but I find it ridiculous that there is a stupid amount of ambiguity.

I didn't invent human nature and gender characteristics,...I just tell how they work.

 

You can either complain about it, or use the knowledge to your advantage and consider yourself a step ahead of the "other guy" that doesn't know about it. It was meant to be difficult so that only the best genes from the boldest people that proved themselves was reproduced. Sex and relationships was not designed biologically to be a recreational sport.

[normal person]

Maybe some truth to this but I find it ridiculous that there is a stupid amount of ambiguity.

 

Of course there's truth to it, it's pretty cut and dry. We have a society that shames women for being too slutty. Therefore, if they want to have sex with a man and avoid the stigma, they need to make it seem as if the sex is his idea and she's merely agreeing to it. It's a way of changing the whole narrative of the interaction to protect her image. Most men know this and can decipher it pretty easily. And also, as is said above, the bold, successful genes are rewarded with reproduction. We don't survive as a species by being meek and passive.

Edited January 7, 2019 by normal person

[PRW]

Of course there's truth to it, it's pretty cut and dry. We have a society that shames women for being too slutty. Therefore, if they want to have sex with a man and avoid the stigma, they need to make it seem as if the sex is his idea and she's merely agreeing to it. It's a way of changing the whole narrative of the interaction to protect her image. Most men know this and can decipher it pretty easily.

I was going to expand on that and say this, but I've gotten people excessively upset over the "s" word in the past. So I held back. But you are dead on the mark.

[clia]

Can I add that this only happened a few weeks ago and was a first time thing with a complete stranger? I often stay the night at female-friends homes, in their bed.

 

This seems really weird to me. I've never once, in my entire life, invited a guy into my bed who I was only interested in in a platonic way. Never. He can either sleep on the couch or go home.

[Mrs._December]

Sorry man,...that's a Beta move. The final last words of every beta male who doesn't get the girl is "I respected her wishes".

And then there are the other words he could be saying, "I swear officer, I didn't date rape her" as they cuff him.

 

No means no and way too many guys are learning that lesson the hard way (and a lot of times, very unfairly). Just look at all the nonsense going on right now about about that song "Baby It's Cold Outside." A bunch of perpetually offended snowflakes are now actually claiming it's 'rapey.' Good lord.

 

With that kind of over the top thinking going on nowadays, the OP was right in doing what he did - if for no other reason, than protecting himself.

[Garcon1986]

The right honorable PRW invented human nature, we are all following the code haha

 

 

In all seriousness, the women you like probably gossiped behind your back that they didn't like your confidence to potential dates, and decreased your chances. Hence the great benefits you may reap from seeking out totally untouched social circles.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Garcon1986

[LightWave93]

Sorry man,...that's a Beta move. The final last words of every beta male who doesn't get the girl is "I respected her wishes". If you are going to spend the night at their place and don't intend to make it romantic then sleep in another room, another bed, or at least on the floor. To do what you did creates an image of weakness. To be in the same bed means that there would be romantic affection displayed even if it doesn't become full intercourse.

 

If you tell her, that if she means what she says, then you will have to insist on sleeping in another room, or bed, or on the floor. You might be surprised at how fast she changes her tune about the "nothing is going to happen". Sometimes women say that "nothing is going to happen" because they don't want to be the instigator,...sex happening is supposed to be the man's fault. But if she meant what she said then she would say, "Sure, go ahead and sleep in the other room, bed, or floor". Now there is no ambiguity and you know where you stand.

 

It's not a beta move. It's a respectful one. I've already been falsely accused of abuse, the last thing I need to do is make moves on a woman who has made it very clear to me that she does not want to engage in sexual acts.

 

If the situation had been different, then I would have made a move. Unfortunately, such situations do not arise.

 

*snip*/QUOTE]

 

With respect, I'm not interested in responding to you anymore; I've told you the facts and you're unwilling to simply accept that these is truth to the feedback I've gotten, so we're going to keep continuing to go around in circles.

 

This seems really weird to me. I've never once, in my entire life, invited a guy into my bed who I was only interested in in a platonic way. Never. He can either sleep on the couch or go home.

 

Well, that's you isn't it? Not everyone behaves the same way, or has the same values etc.

 

 

 

Now, I would certainly appreciate if if you would all stop trying to get me to sleep with my friends, and actually help me understand why I do not get dates / laid.

 

I have made it very clear, and these are facts; I'm decently-attractive, hard-working, intelligent, social and capable. I get on well with people, have a multitude of different hobbies and interests, and go out regularly to socialize. I present myself well and am a good conservationist. My dating profiles and pictures are a-okay. All the aforementioned has been confirmed to me by friends, family, complete strangers (online and offline), mental health professionals and dating coaches.

 

Can we simply except these for what they are, and work on other aspects that may be a-miss here?

[AmyHershaw]

It must be frustrating, but you needn't stress about it. It's nothing to do with you unless you are perhaps being a little forward or pushy with women. Personally, I prefer men not making it very obvious when they are romantically interested in me, so that I can have time to get to know them and decide for myself. As long as you are being you, you're not making any errors when it comes to dating.

[LightWave93]

In all seriousness, the women you like probably gossiped behind your back that they didn't like your confidence to potential dates, and decreased your chances. Hence the great benefits you may reap from seeking out totally untouched social circles.

 

There's no conspiracy or rumor-spreading going on.

 

For starters; what women that I like? I don't like any women, nor have I mentioned any. I can't get dates online, and women don't engage with me in real life, so who is there to like?

 

And...*sigh*...the latest woman I did go out on a date with, said I was very confident on our first date and was the most confident guy she'd dated. Take of that what you will.

[Garcon1986]

It seems like you've tried all of the advice given. So - the only thing left is to keep on going to parties where you can flirt with totally new women and take mental notes on what works and what doesn't, and stop asking female friends for advice on dating, because it is potentially hurting you. The silver lining here is that you have a lot more time to search for your mate than women of the same age. Women will be itching to have children by the age of 30 due to the risks of birth defects and such, but you will be attractive for much much longer than that. If you can add in a little patience and a discipline to never lose sight of the things that make you fun, you might just be the lad with the last laugh.

[LightWave93]

It seems like you've tried all of the advice given. So - the only thing left is to keep on going to parties where you can flirt with totally new women and take mental notes on what works and what doesn't, and stop asking female friends for advice on dating, because it is potentially hurting you. The silver lining here is that you have a lot more time to search for your mate than women of the same age. Women will be itching to have children by the age of 30 due to the risks of birth defects and such, but you will be attractive for much much longer than that. If you can add in a little patience and a discipline to never lose sight of the things that make you fun, you might just be the lad with the last laugh.

 

I won't be dating past the age of 30. I'm not going to be the guy that women settle for.

 

I've said, I want to experience sex and love in my youth. Your suggestion implies that I am to wait around while the the girls have their fun, then go for the backup option.

 

I'm more than that.

[Garcon1986]

No actually you should keep on trying no matter what your age is. I didn't want to be the guy that women settled for, but I still failed in that endeavor, if you count failure as not being married before you are 30. What I didn't fail at was learning stuff about myself at the age of 23 -

 

 

1. Certain women will never date me however many redeeming qualities I have.

2. I don't exude sexiness.

3. I exude awkwardness in social interactions.

4. I have no clue what appropriate physical escalation is. I only understood rape and no physical intimacy at all, nothing in between.

5. Never had sex.

6. I had no idea what another woman would consider as sexy conversation.

 

 

Since then, I've made so many improvements in myself that I have earned myself more dates than I could have ever dreamed of. I can't change the fact that I failed to do due diligence in college by going to house parties and date as much as I could. I'll go with that failure to my grave. Instead - I learned that nobody is a broken man because they haven't found their ideal date. We just keep trying until we get it.

 

 

I'm going to say that there are finer body language points that you may be missing. Earlier you said women had found you attractive, but your friend noticed that you paid them no attention. I propose you date with a finely tuned ear to small body language cues. Women make the dating process confusing because they don't have the heart to tell men directly what they don't like. It's partially because they feel uncomfortable doing so, and it's partially to save themselves potential retaliation from an unknown man. Use your finely tuned skills mate, go and pay very close attention to what her body language signals are saying. You'll find most women aren't so skilled at body language that they can hide everything. Seek out those fine little incongruences.

[LightWave93]

It seems like you've tried all of the advice given. So - the only thing left is to keep on going to parties where you can flirt with totally new women and take mental notes on what works and what doesn't, and stop asking female friends for advice on dating, because it is potentially hurting you. The silver lining here is that you have a lot more time to search for your mate than women of the same age. Women will be itching to have children by the age of 30 due to the risks of birth defects and such, but you will be attractive for much much longer than that. If you can add in a little patience and a discipline to never lose sight of the things that make you fun, you might just be the lad with the last laugh.

 

Again, it's not just dating, it's sexual experience. I would like to have casual sex, at some point, with attractive women, before I settle down.

 

If I suddenly become attractive past 30, then it just means I'm a backup option, really.

[Garcon1986]

The harsh reality is that the women you meet may be turned off to casual sex.

[LightWave93]

The harsh reality is that the women you meet may be turned off to casual sex.

 

Yet it's a very common occurrence in our culture.

 

 

Look, guys, I have to accept that I'm not desirable. I see that's the only solution.

[Tristian]

Noting that the topic drifted into conversation that would be more appropriate in one of our general areas, I did a little house cleaning.

 

 

I will ask that everyone please keep their replies focused on the OP and keep general discussions in the proper areas. Thanks!

[ElKay]

When you mentioned that whenever you asked women out, they aren't interested- what is your type? What kind of gals do you go after?

 

Also, I just have to put it out there that, in Canada, platonic man/woman friends don't usually sleep in bed together, so it's not as commonplace as you make it sound.

[LightWave93]

When you mentioned that whenever you asked women out, they aren't interested- what is your type? What kind of gals do you go after?

 

Also, I just have to put it out there that, in Canada, platonic man/woman friends don't usually sleep in bed together, so it's not as commonplace as you make it sound.

 

No particular type. I'd date a variety of women.

[edgygirl]

It's now occurring to me - confidence is great, but can you also be... vulnerable? Seriously, even the confident men I've dated, when they were getting into me they became vulnerable. It's very important to show some vulnerability to develop rapport with someone.

 

Maybe you're being a bit too cocky but zero vulnerable? That might turn women off.

 

Vulnerability may sound like weakness but it usually gives strength to a possible relationship. Sometimes i.e. I tell a prospective date (jokingly but they know it's not a total joke) that finding the right person has been so difficult and the process so frustrating that I might as well give up soon. People can relate to that as dating sucks for almost everyone.

 

Dunno... just trying to read between the lines of what you say to try to help you.

 

And...*sigh*...the latest woman I did go out on a date with, said I was very confident on our first date and was the most confident guy she'd dated. Take of that what you will.