Why can’t I keep a man?

[salparadise]

You seem to be looking for a single, correct hook to hang your problem on. It's virtually never that simple. Everything affects everything else, it's very nuanced, and the ripples continue far past the point where they're visible.

 

I can be warm and fun. I’m not wild, I’m on the reserved side sometimes. Must be my personality, but then again why would my Personailty do anything with that? A guy will like me for me. Isn’t that how it goes?

––––

I’m guarded and don’t like to open up a whole much on the first date. Why would I do that? I don’t trust the guy especially on the first date by telling personal info that won’t happen till like the 7th or later on as he gets to know me way later, but by then I’m nexted I till some other chick who is outgoing will snatch him up. So, basically I have to SELL my self on the 1st date, be funny, be witty, tell my life story??? Geez.

–––––

And besides isn’t it the mans job to be funny and engaging? I have to put work into it? Doesn’t seem fair.

 

The above quoted statements indicate wherein your problem actually lies. In my opinion they're all erroneous. When people say that someone cares about you just for who you are, they're talking about personality primarily, as opposed to more superficial things like looks or status. You're relying entirely on the resumé and thinking the interview doesn't matter... it's the opposite. Guys go more by the feeling than a checklist.

 

I'm amazed that you think that all you have to do is show up and the guy is supposed to be automatically smitten. I'm getting an image of a woman sitting across the table with arms crossed who doesn't smile or flirt, doesn't talk much, doesn't reveal anything, doesn't engage... expecting guys to fall all over themselves based on the fact that you're female. Ah yea, this is almost certainly where you're missing it. You need to trigger his motivation. That doesn't mean you have to overact or anything, but you do need to engage and show interest.

 

I've been on a lot of first dates since my last relationship ended, and most of those I didn't follow up on because there was nothing of particular interest in terms of personality and interactions. There were a few who had great resumés too. I can't explain precisely what it is (chemistry?), but I know it when I feel it. I've had exactly two that I felt it with wanted to continue dating but they weren't interested in me. They were both physically attractive and charming, and I'm fairly certain they were optimizing for wealth and status (looking for a big money guy because they felt they could).

[salparadise]

Why do people give that horrible advice to “focus on school and work?” Bull crap. Were they jealous of me finding love? No, don’t tell young people to focus on school! Has anyone noticed that doctors met their partners at school then they marry, have kids young, Majority of them marry in their late 20’s. If medical students had time to go on dates and surely that whole “focusing on school” speil is utterly bull.

 

I don't think anyone ever missed out on life because they pursued an education! You could sacrifice education for a husband and end up divorced a few years later. It's not an either/or situation though; many do both. Smart money is to get the education regardless. When I do online dating I look for a bachelor degree at minimum, and prioritize grad and post grad degrees. Why? Because I want a full partner, not a dependent. Education expands the mind, attitudes and potential in many directions. This also filters out those who just aren't very bright or aren't focused, organized, and forward thinking enough enough to pursue a degree.

 

In the reality is, as on these forums, advice is often one person's opinion based on a perception informed by a single datum (anecdotal). In many instances it's no more valid than the opposite argument. In other words, there are no absolutes; trends or tendencies- yes, but when it comes to lifestyle choices people make it work so many different ways that no one can say it has to be a certain way––exceptions are almost as frequent as examples that comprise trends. But thinking that the opportunity cost of pursuing education makes it unwise is reeeeally playing against the odds. Never hit 17 when you play against the dealer.

 

BettyDraper has it in perspective I think. There are biological predispositions that are true more often than not, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of exceptions. An exception does not invalidate a trend, in fact, it's sort of the opposite. It would not be an exception were it not for the trend... like the existence of a shadow being evidence of light.

 

There are certain realities of romantic relationships which nobody likes to accept.

It is much easier for women to attract the best partner while we are young.

Men will do better with women if they have resources.

I am speaking in terms of evolutionary psychology.

––––––

Your parents' experience is an anecdote which does not disprove the realities of intimate relationships between men and women. Why do you think that wealthy men often have much younger wives who are better looking than them? It's because men are hardwired to look for beauty and youth because those are signals of fertility. Women, whether we have our own resources or not, instinctively look for men who can match our earning power or preferably exceed it. Exceptions are not rules.

 

I will concede that there are many levels to a relationship other than the most basic ones. It's just that our biology drives our reasoning and choice of partners.

[Wallysbears]

You don’t need a man to make you happy. And a man doesn’t need a woman either because you should be a source of your own happiness.

 

Relying on someone to complete you is taking the easy way out rather than doing the hard work of discovering and developing self-love.

 

It’s no wonder why you’re struggling. You keep giving your power away and placing your heart in the hands of men asking them to be your sole source of happiness. That’s a huge responsibility you’re asking of them, whether you realize it or not.

 

Happiness (contentment really) comes from within.

 

Completely and 100% agree with this.

 

And if the 'vibe' that you are giving off is that you want a man to be your happiness, it is likely a HUGE turnoff.

[Happy Lemming]

What is 75% of what we want in a relationship?

 

I think you mis-read my post, it was 75% of a checklist (that most women have). I imagine as a woman gets older and has more failures in dating that she will pare down the list, a bit. My girlfriend told me, that years ago she never would have dated me, but alas her checklist shortened and I squeaked in under the wire.

 

In some cases, a woman's checklist can be quite long and there may be several "deal breakers" at the top of the list.

 

A while back, I remember I overheard a young female co-worker talking to another female co-worker and she said "Oh, I got rid of Joe, he drove a Ford" As I listened further, it was apparent that she only dated guys that drove BMW's, Audi's or Mercedes Benz. So apparently, this was on her "deal breaker" list. I imagine if she was older and her looks had faded, this vehicle requirement may have been removed from her "deal breaker" list, but that is just a working theory.

[basil67]

Joyce, it sounds like you've been given a lot of advice over the years and you've accepted it unquestioningly. But you must remember that opinions are like buttholes: Everyone has one. Using critical thought (even as a young person) to sift out good advice from the bad is a basic life skill.

 

What happened to not make you question the advice you were given? Learning how to date, have friends, fun and relationships is a critical part of growing as a young person.

[basil67]

I think you mis-read my post, it was 75% of a checklist (that most women have). I imagine as a woman gets older and has more failures in dating that she will pare down the list, a bit. My girlfriend told me, that years ago she never would have dated me, but alas her checklist shortened and I squeaked in under the wire.

 

In some cases, a woman's checklist can be quite long and there may be several "deal breakers" at the top of the list.

 

A while back, I remember I overheard a young female co-worker talking to another female co-worker and she said "Oh, I got rid of Joe, he drove a Ford" As I listened further, it was apparent that she only dated guys that drove BMW's, Audi's or Mercedes Benz. So apparently, this was on her "deal breaker" list. I imagine if she was older and her looks had faded, this vehicle requirement may have been removed from her "deal breaker" list, but that is just a working theory.

 

I'm not sure about women making the dealbreaker list shorter as they get older. I know a number of older women who've retired from the whole relationship thing and are living their lives they way they want to. Either that, or they've switched sides.

[salparadise]

I'm not sure about women making the dealbreaker list shorter as they get older. I know a number of older women who've retired from the whole relationship thing and are living their lives they way they want to. Either that, or they've switched sides.

 

My sense is that many older women have fortified their lists. I think it depends on variables such as their perceived market value, and how eager they truly are to be paired up. If they're attractive, socially adept, height-weight-proportionate, and financially secure, they're not going to compromise unless hell freezes over. If they're BBW, it's a different calculation altogether.

 

But here's what I think is more prevalent than most people realize... people use a fortified list of dealbreakers subconsciously to avoid the fear of taking another chance on love. The find a place of relative equilibrium, even though they don't have a partner, and they make their peace with it, again subconsciously. Consciously throwing in the towel would leave them without hope, so they remain active on match.com. But the reality is that no mortal man with flaws of his own is ever going to pique their interest. It's either Cary Grant debonaire or nothing, because it feels safe.

[basil67]

My sense is that many older women have fortified their lists. I think it depends on variables such as their perceived market value, and how eager they truly are to be paired up. If they're attractive, socially adept, height-weight-proportionate, and financially secure, they're not going to compromise unless hell freezes over. If they're BBW, it's a different calculation altogether.

 

But here's what I think is more prevalent than most people realize... people use a fortified list of dealbreakers subconsciously to avoid the fear of taking another chance on love. The find a place of relative equilibrium, even though they don't have a partner, and they make their peace with it, again subconsciously. Consciously throwing in the towel would leave them without hope, so they remain active on match.com. But the reality is that no mortal man with flaws of his own is ever going to pique their interest. It's either Cary Grant debonaire or nothing, because it feels safe.

 

Another part of the equation is that women get tired of being carers. Planning meals, finding lost things, the whole mental load and have no desire to return to that job. For them, the road ahead can be only having to worry about themselves for once.

 

That said, I think a guy who doesn't need to be organised, helped to find socks or buy a gift for his mother could possibly sway an older women to reconsider her stance.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Another part of the equation is that women get tired of being carers. Planning meals, finding lost things, the whole mental load and have no desire to return to that job. For them, the road ahead can be only having to worry about themselves for once.

 

That said, I think a guy who doesn't need to be organised, helped to find socks or buy a gift for his mother could possibly sway an older women to reconsider her stance.

 

This is true. A relationship is like taking on another job. When you live with someone, it is up to the female to do bulk of the work (including emotional labor). Since I make more than most men, I am also expected to bring my lifestyle down a few levels to match man's or pay for him. No thanks.

 

The freedom of being single is wonderful. Not to mention that at my age. I am supposed to "lower my standards" because I am "too old" for men my age or even men few years older than me.

 

Those are the main reasons why I retired from the dating game. I see needing a man to make you happy as a weakness.

[salparadise]

Another part of the equation is that women get tired of being carers. Planning meals, finding lost things, the whole mental load and have no desire to return to that job. For them, the road ahead can be only having to worry about themselves for once.

 

That said, I think a guy who doesn't need to be organised, helped to find socks or buy a gift for his mother could possibly sway an older women to reconsider her stance.

 

Yes, I've heard women say they don't want to ever have to take care of anyone, although I thought they were probably talking about end of life situations. I can see how this would be a consideration if they were previously married to someone who wasn't organized and could not do for himself.

 

Then there are those who simply prefer to live alone. I went out with a nice, attractive woman a few times about a year ago, until she said that she didn't think she'd ever want to live with anyone again. It took me by surprise because she had also said she was interested in a serious, long-term relationship. I assumed we were on the same page. I suspect she was playing safe emotionally. She had recently ended a five year relationship after her divorce a few years before that. She never asked why I didn't ask for another date. Maybe she knew intuitively. I thought it was kind of insulting for her to inform me I was trying out for the position of man-on-call!

 

Oh well, it wouldn't have worked out anyway. She's a band junkie, like a groupie only in her mid-fifties. She goes to every concert and festival she can find, knows a bunch of performers by name, and goes to the front and dances, and dances, and dances. There's nothing inherently wrong with that if it flips her switch, but I'd never want to be in a relationship with someone who acts like that!

Edited January 4, 2019 by salparadise

[thefooloftheyear]

This is true. A relationship is like taking on another job. When you live with someone, it is up to the female to do bulk of the work (including emotional labor). Since I make more than most men, I am also expected to bring my lifestyle down a few levels to match man's or pay for him. No thanks.

 

The freedom of being single is wonderful. Not to mention that at my age. I am supposed to "lower my standards" because I am "too old" for men my age or even men few years older than me.

 

Those are the main reasons why I retired from the dating game. I see needing a man to make you happy as a weakness.

 

 

I dunno...

 

Once people hit 40+, I don't see it as one sided as you guys are making it out to be...Id imagine that at that point, no kids, and people that are approaching middle age have a lot of their own stuff and aren't looking for another person to carry that load...

 

I pretty well off, but I wouldn't expect someone to alter their life either way, nor would I expect to lower my standards either..

 

Maybe its different and I respect your opinion/viewpoint, but from where I stand and the people I know, its a pretty well balanced setup at this stage of life..It's mostly "whats mine is mine and what's yours is yours" within reason, of course..

 

In some sense, doing this at a later age is much more healthy and enjoyable...There is a lot less stress...

 

TFY

[edgygirl]

I'm so sad to read this. I have always thought you're an amazing, intelligent woman. Please don't give up. It's hard but your special man is out there. It's not about needing a man, it's about finding a fun companion & wittiness, which you deserve to have.

 

I retired from the dating game. I see needing a man to make you happy as a weakness.

[anika99]

This is true. A relationship is like taking on another job. When you live with someone, it is up to the female to do bulk of the work (including emotional labor). Since I make more than most men, I am also expected to bring my lifestyle down a few levels to match man's or pay for him. No thanks.

 

The freedom of being single is wonderful. Not to mention that at my age. I am supposed to "lower my standards" because I am "too old" for men my age or even men few years older than me.

 

Those are the main reasons why I retired from the dating game. I see needing a man to make you happy as a weakness.

 

I'm not sad to read this at all. I totally get where you are coming from. I too have sworn off dating and am enjoying being single. It is paradise!! Now I'm not a man hater. I have sons and brothers and I love them dearly so this is not a man bashing thing. It's just that relationships are work. I already have a full plate with working full time, pet ownership, having a elderly mom and grandchildren. I just don't have it in me to get emotionally entangled with someone else, to be brought down by someone elses issues and moods. That's not to say that I'm perfect, I'm not and I don't wish to impose my moods or issues on anyone else.

 

And I do view it as a weakness to NEED a man fo be happy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a man or enjoying a man, but a woman who needs a man is the woman who will lower her standards and accept unacceptable behaviour for the sake of having a relationship. Maybe it's an age thing. Lets face it, the dating pool becomes a lot shallower as get older and the women I know who are my age and still dating and getting boyfriends tend to put up with things they shouldn't.

 

One of my friends met an alcoholic and moved in with him because "hey it's better than being alone" and another friend has a boyfriend that told her all kinds of lies when they met. She is a home owner, he told her that he also owns a home. He does not. She is a hard worker and has a great paying job. He told her he is in oil and gas and just between contracts right now. Bragged himself up about what a mover and shaker he is. He was actually unemployed. Now he spends most of his time sleeping over at my friends house, eating her food and asking her for money. He won't even make her dinner. Waits for her to get home from work and asks her what's for dinner. My friends daughter can't stand him and rarely visits her anymore. My friend puts up with this because she is in her fifties and doesn't want to be alone. I see her as sooo weak.

 

 

When I see people in all kinds of pain because of their relationship drama or because they don't have a relationship, I feel amazingly free and liberated. My friend with the loser/user boyfriend told me once that she is so sad for me because I don't have a man. She pitied me? That was so funny to me because every time we visit she goes on and on about her relationship and how awful her boyfriend and how he hurts her and she knows she shouldn't put up with it but she doesnt' want to be lonely. I just sit and listen while thanking God that I'm not her and I'm not afraid to be alone.

[Happy Lemming]

Those are the main reasons why I retired from the dating game. I see needing a man to make you happy as a weakness.

 

But the OP does want a man and is looking for advice. Thus the title of her thread "Why can't I keep a man?"

 

Lowering her standards slightly, shortening her checklist, & accepting a date from a guy that may not be as attractive as what she is used to, may open her up to maybe an "OK" guy that could turn into a relationship vs. the (3-4 dates and gone) scenario, she discussed in her opening statement.

[JuneL]

Exactly what traits of yours would have disqualified you from your current girlfriend if she were younger?

 

I’m also not sure what this “lowering standards” thing means: you either develop romantic feelings and love for someone or not. If that someone turns out to be a wife beater or drug addict (dealbreaker), then you break off no matter how strong your emotions are. I can fall in love with an average joe in the looks department; I also have fallen in love with very good looking men before. There’s no checklist. But I do tend to admire men who are exceptionally intelligent (in the broad sense), which I know is subjective, and who have an open mind.

 

I think you mis-read my post, it was 75% of a checklist (that most women have). I imagine as a woman gets older and has more failures in dating that she will pare down the list, a bit. My girlfriend told me, that years ago she never would have dated me, but alas her checklist shortened and I squeaked in under the wire.

 

In some cases, a woman's checklist can be quite long and there may be several "deal breakers" at the top of the list.

 

A while back, I remember I overheard a young female co-worker talking to another female co-worker and she said "Oh, I got rid of Joe, he drove a Ford" As I listened further, it was apparent that she only dated guys that drove BMW's, Audi's or Mercedes Benz. So apparently, this was on her "deal breaker" list. I imagine if she was older and her looks had faded, this vehicle requirement may have been removed from her "deal breaker" list, but that is just a working theory.

[Happy Lemming]

Exactly what traits of yours would have disqualified you from your current girlfriend if she were younger?

 

The big thing was my income. All of the men she dated made a lot more than I did. She was used to fine dining, grand vacations, very nice hotels and the guy having a nice car.

 

I've invested all of my money in real estate (for early retirement), not expensive cars or other material possessions. Fine dining for me is Denny's, my vacations include camping in a tent, cooking SPAM & spaghettios in pot over a butane camp stove, and star gazing in front of camp fire. And I drive an old beat up pickup. There were other small items (including religion), but money was the big one.

 

On her "deal breaker" list was dating an accountant. Her and her girlfriends stated "all accountants are cheap" so they wouldn't date one. Well that was my main profession (prior to retirement).

Edited January 5, 2019 by Happy Lemming

[edgygirl]

COMPLETELY different situation than Eternal Sunshine.

 

You've lived a full life, obviously, as you do have sons and grandkids. How can this even be compared to her situation? Do you realize we will not have a family like you do if we don't find a companion? A total different situation than yours. How would you feel if your children and grandchildren did not exist?

 

Also I didn't tell anyone to accept unacceptable behavior.

 

I'm not sad to read this at all. I totally get where you are coming from. I too have sworn off dating and am enjoying being single. It is paradise!! Now I'm not a man hater. I have sons and brothers and I love them dearly so this is not a man bashing thing. It's just that relationships are work. I already have a full plate with working full time, pet ownership, having a elderly mom and grandchildren. I just don't have it in me to get emotionally entangled with someone else, to be brought down by someone elses issues and moods. That's not to say that I'm perfect, I'm not and I don't wish to impose my moods or issues on anyone else.<snip>

Edited January 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote

[edgygirl]

I'm prob your GF back in the day.

 

I studied too long and worked too long to lower my minimum standards. I also wouldn't date a CPA lol. I swipe left on them. I'd be terrified of a man who's idea of fun is camping eating SPAM and that fine dinning is Denny's.

 

I still get dates with professionals like me who like traveling and staying in boutique hotels and real fine dining. Why would I go for something that doesn't attract me? Just because a simpler man might stay with me? Hmm.... maybe in this case I do prefer to stay single.

 

The big thing was my income. All of the men she dated made a lot more than I did. She was used to fine dining, grand vacations, very nice hotels and the guy having a nice car.

 

I've invested all of my money in real estate (for early retirement), not expensive cars or other material possessions. Fine dining for me is Denny's, my vacations include camping in a tent, cooking SPAM & spaghettios in pot over a butane camp stove, and star gazing in front of camp fire. And I drive an old beat up pickup. There were other small items (including religion), but money was the big one.

 

On her "deal breaker" list was dating an accountant. Her and her girlfriends stated "all accountants are cheap" so they wouldn't date one. Well that was my main profession (prior to retirement).

[salparadise]

On her "deal breaker" list was dating an accountant. Her and her girlfriends stated "all accountants are cheap" so they wouldn't date one. Well that was my main profession (prior to retirement).

 

I know there is the comic stereotype of accountants being straight-laced, practical, and so forth (Howard Sprague), but I did not realize that people actually believe that all accountants are cheap. That doesn't seem to be consistent with my observations. The accountants I've had over the years all drove expensive European cars, wore fine clothes and had nice offices. I find it curious that people take a stereotype like that and make it the basis of an actual belief. Is this really a thing? Do the most people actually believe this?

 

My daughter recently became a CPA at age 22. I don't think she's going to fit that stereotype either.

 

I live in a college town where there are a lot of students driving cars that are well above what most people on a measly six-figure income would drive. I shake my head and think, if I had that kind of money I could spend it so much better.

 

The last thing I'd ever want would be a woman who has that "only the best will do" mentality. I cringe at the thought of throwing away $500/night or more on a hotel room. Maybe I have a CPA mentality myself, eh?

[nospam99]

Maybe its different and I respect your opinion/viewpoint, but from where I stand and the people I know, its a pretty well balanced setup at this stage of life..It's mostly ''whats mine is mine and what's yours is yours'' within reason, of course..

 

Gotta chuckle ... As a male living in a 'deep blue' no-fault state, recently divorced after 4+ years of 'negotiations', I found it to be 'what's yours is yours and what's mine is yours'.

[elaine567]

But the OP does want a man and is looking for advice. Thus the title of her thread "Why can't I keep a man?"

 

Lowering her standards slightly, shortening her checklist, & accepting a date from a guy that may not be as attractive as what she is used to, may open her up to maybe an "OK" guy that could turn into a relationship vs. the (3-4 dates and gone) scenario, she discussed in her opening statement.

 

 

The issue is not that she cannot attract, the issue is keeping a man.

If the issue was attracting a man then yes she needs to perhaps lower her standards, but she is apparently perfectly capable of attracting such men.

[elaine567]

I think it may be linked to the "closed-offness", the "guardedness".

Relationships need to progress, there are milestones that need to be reached and whilst the time scale may vary, some progress needs to be seen.

 

If the OP is so closed off that at 3-4 dates the man feels he is no further on in getting to know her, the real her, he then will lose interest and move on.

I am not talking about sex here sex may or may not have occurred but if there is little or no progress made regards getting to know each other, feeling closer, feeling more comfortable, feeling secure, then it is perhaps easier to cut losses and run, than keep trying to break down walls.

Edited January 5, 2019 by elaine567

[Eternal Sunshine]

COMPLETELY different situation than Eternal Sunshine.

 

You've lived a full life, obviously, as you do have sons and grandkids. How can this even be compared to her situation? Do you realize we will not have a family like you do if we don't find a companion? A total different situation than yours. How would you feel if your children and grandchildren did not exist?

 

Also I didn't tell anyone to accept unacceptable behavior.

 

I do feel I have had a full life regardless of having no children. I never felt a biological need for them.

 

The issues I face as an older woman in the dating market are largely the same regardless of children. I have choice to be treated poorly and put up with all kinds of crap for the sake of having a man. In the last 5 years, I only met a string of substance abusers, unemployed men looking for money or sweet talkers that only wanted sex but pretended otherwise. And this latest trend of men my age (and even few years older) wanting to date 25 year olds? I am done.

 

If I was on deathbed today, I would only regret every online date and every ****ty relationship where I allowed myself to be treated as less than what I deserve. Watching a Netflix marathon was about 100 times more enjoyable to me.

 

I haven't gotten dealt a good hand of cards or any luck in the relationship department. I do believe that it could be in part my own personality, but then again with the same personality I have kept largish circle of friends over decades (I still go on holidays with my best fried from primary school). With the same personality I was able to get, retain jobs and progress through my career. With the same personality I have very close and warm relationship with my whole family. So it can't be THAT bad.

 

The only person that gets to decide if I have had a full life is me.

[Happy Lemming]

I'm prob your GF back in the day.

 

I studied too long and worked too long to lower my minimum standards. I also wouldn't date a CPA lol. I swipe left on them. I'd be terrified of a man who's idea of fun is camping eating SPAM and that fine dinning is Denny's.

 

I still get dates with professionals like me who like traveling and staying in boutique hotels and real fine dining. Why would I go for something that doesn't attract me? Just because a simpler man might stay with me? Hmm.... maybe in this case I do prefer to stay single.

 

Fair enough... I completely understand your point of view.

 

There is a lid for every pot, but as you get older the pot gets a little dinged up and bent and the lid doesn't fit as well, so you can accept a lid that isn't quite perfect or none at all.

[Happy Lemming]

I live in a college town where there are a lot of students driving cars that are well above what most people on a measly six-figure income would drive. I shake my head and think, if I had that kind of money I could spend it so much better.

 

The last thing I'd ever want would be a woman who has that "only the best will do" mentality. I cringe at the thought of throwing away $500/night or more on a hotel room. Maybe I have a CPA mentality myself, eh?

 

First off, Congrats to your daughter... wishing her all the luck in the world in the industry.

 

As for those expensive cars, I think to myself that car cost more than my first house. Why would you dump that much money (and interest) into an asset that is going to depreciate.

 

And for having a CPA mentality... We will, gladly, welcome you into the club. I'll teach you the secret handshake, later.