Forgiveness?

[pepperbird]

As an agnostic, I admittedly am not overly well versed in christian scripture, so perhaps someone can help me to balance this equation.

 

 

 

 

One of the principle of christianity is forgiveness. If this is true then why is it seemingly not possible for an omnipotent being to hold a grudge for thousands of years? Why are humans (women especially) still being punished for the sins of our great X1000 grandparents, yet I shoudl feel guilty if I can;t forgive someone who has actually hurt me?

[MetallicHue]

I’m very new so I’m not familiar with your story. But i can say that I think a lot of people have those we cannot forgive. My dad was a great dad until he divorced my mom. After that he turned into an as*. He said things about my wife I will never forgive him for. He has hurt me in so many ways... He has cancer and I still talk to him even though I probably shouldn’t. He still hasn’t changed and won’t till the day he dies. Personally my religion (if I had one) would not come into play about how I feel about him. So personally I think it’s whatever religion you want it to be to not forgive an as*.

[Arieswoman]

pepperbird,

I not sure what you mean by 'holding a grudge for thousands of years'? I assume that you are talking about 'Original Sin' which is rather a large topic to be discussed here.

 

 

However, I'll try to explain it.

 

 

 

Christians accept that we are all 'sinful' (because we are human) and therefore have the tendency to do selfish/unkind/mean things. It is intrinsic to our nature and it doesn't matter if you believe the story about Eve and that apple or not.

 

 

Sin separates us from God, so to get closer we need to acknowledge that we have sinned, say we are sorry to God and try to do better. It's a pretty impossible task, as we are tempted on all fronts but we do the best we can.

 

 

If we persist in a sinful course of action, knowing that it is wrong, then we won't be forgiven.

 

 

By the same token, if someone hurts us by their behaviour (either deliberately of inadvertantly) and does not acknowledge what they have done (even if we call them out on it) does not apologise and try to make amends, then we are not required to forgive them.

 

 

HTH

[LivingWaterPlease]

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. " John 16:13

[Geraltt]

As an agnostic, I admittedly am not overly well versed in christian scripture, so perhaps someone can help me to balance this equation.

 

One of the principle of christianity is forgiveness. If this is true then why is it seemingly not possible for an omnipotent being to hold a grudge for thousands of years? Why are humans (women especially) still being punished for the sins of our great X1000 grandparents, yet I shoudl feel guilty if I can;t forgive someone who has actually hurt me?

It's just one more arrow in the quiver that's loaded with bizarre pieces of advice and contradictions inherent in biblical stories.

 

Consider this, based on very real people, both of whom I know:

 

A minister assaulted a young girl when she was under 10 (I think she was 8 - I didn't know her then, only got to know her about a dozen years later).

 

As a direct result of that assault, she turned her back on religion and any belief in an omnipotent being. And who can blame her?

 

The assaulter was caught and did time. Upon release he said he had asked Jesus for forgiveness and recommitted his life to Christ.

 

Now, according to doctrine, he'll end up in heaven after death, while she'll be sent somewhere else.

 

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, does it? The victim gets punished, the assaulter gets rewarded. But that's what religious doctrine does.

 

Religion poisons everything. - Christopher Hitchens

Edited January 12, 2019 by Geraltt
spellng

[Arieswoman]

Geraltt

Now, according to doctrine, he'll end up in heaven after death, while she'll be sent somewhere else.

 

 

I'm afraid you are misinformed, it isn't as cut-and-dried as that.

 

 

When we are Baptised our parents & Godparents make promises on our behalf regarding the Christian Faith, because we cannot speak for ourselves.

 

 

Later on when we are reach an age where we are able to understand the difficulties and challenges of living out the Christian faith, we are invited to confirm the promises made on our behalf at Baptism through Confirmation. In most Catholic/Anglican churches today, children are confirmed when they are about 14 years old, after a period of instruction.

 

 

 

A child of 8 will not have "turned their back on religion" as they didn't sign up for it in the first place. As they have been Baptised then they certainly won't be going to Hell.

[Geraltt]

A child of 8 will not have "turned their back on religion" as they didn't sign up for it in the first place. As they have been Baptised then they certainly won't be going to Hell.

This woman didn't turn her back on religion at the age of 8; she did so well into her teen years, and she's remained fiercely (somewhat too fiercely, to my taste) atheist ever since.

 

The point, I suppose, is moot anyway, since there is zero evidence anywhere for any god, of any type, and zero evidence for anything resembling life after death, a heaven or a hell. No soul, no spirit realm, no ghosts or demons or angels, no saints interceding spiritually on one's behalf, no other level or plane of existence over and above what is here and now.

 

It's just not there.

[Arieswoman]

The point, I suppose, is moot anyway, since there is zero evidence anywhere for any god, of any type, and zero evidence for anything resembling life after death, a heaven or a hell. No soul, no spirit realm, no ghosts or demons or angels, no saints interceding spiritually on one's behalf, no other level or plane of existence over and above what is here and now.

 

 

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to have.

 

 

However, if that is your viewpoint it seems a bit odd that you want to debate on a forum that is discussing something that, from your point of view, doesn't exist?

[todreaminblue]

hey....i believe forgiveness should be given with a humble gracious heart because we too will need forgiveness at the end of days.....i dont feel its called a mercy seat for nothing..........

 

and as far as sinning goes we all sin differently.....to truly receive true forgiveness as far as i believe you need to have true remorse no matter the sin..small or huge....and as being mere human we cant truly know the workings of another human heart...that's god realm of judgement....

 

at that seat of mercy our hearts naked forgiveness is mercy.....in this way i have found my peace with forgiveness i have given and will give......i have a lot to be forgiven for..and i have had a lot to forgive......

 

....someone wrote once to forgive is a divine act......and matthew 18 :21-22 echos that to me.....

 

Matthew 18:21-22 King James Version (KJV)

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

 

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

 

the way seventy times seven times......is written apparently means a boundless number.....we want to be forgiven boundless times so we should forgive boundlessly...forgiveness benefits the forgiver....with a certain....peace...says more about the forgivers heart...than the sinner...gods heart has boundless forgiveness....jesus is living forgiveness......deb

[Geraltt]

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to have.

 

However, if that is your viewpoint it seems a bit odd that you want to debate on a forum that is discussing something that, from your point of view, doesn't exist?

It's not an opinion, it's data based on evidence.

 

I came to my own personal age of enlightenment through discussion, debate, research, and - you may find this peculiar, but it's true - prayer. I was a "true believer" for many years, active in my church, led bible studies and prayer groups. But after doing much research, discussions with both local religious leaders and some leading theologians (Marcus Borg, specifically, as well as Lee Strobel, and reading some William Lane Craig among others) and hard thinking about these things, I had no choice but to come to the inescapable conclusions that I outlined in my earlier post.

 

I don't expect to change your mind, and if you find comfort, compassion and community in your religion of choice, I completely and fully support that.

 

But there may be others who are witnessing this exchange who are on the fence, or just aren't sure. It's my contention that there is life after religion; indoctrination doesn't have to be a life-long sentence. One can break free of it and live a fulfilling, wonderful life full of love and joy. And forgiveness.

 

No god required.

[Wallysbears]

Religion aspect aside

 

Forgiveness and forgiving someone doesn’t mean you forget or even trust the person again.

 

Forgiveness is for you.

 

I forgive my brother in law for being a jerk - but I never TOLD him that and I don’t talk to him.

 

I’ve just let it go and moved on.

 

I harbor no bad will towards him....he’s just persona non grata in my world.

[todreaminblue]

One of the principle of christianity is forgiveness. If this is true then why is it seemingly not possible for an omnipotent being to hold a grudge for thousands of years? Why are humans (women especially) still being punished for the sins of our great X1000 grandparents, yet I should feel guilty if I can't forgive someone who has actually hurt me?

 

we are not held responsible for the sins of another there are many bible verses about this but here's one i found for you op......

 

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

 

 

why do you feel women are held more accountable for our sins than man? how are women punished more than men?...deb

[pepperbird]

I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

 

I'm not in the school that believes one has to forgive every wrong. Some wrongs are too great, but that doesn't equate with one being miserable. There are a couple of people I have interacted with who, for different reason, I can't forgive. I have made my peace with that. I don't hate them.

 

 

 

 

 

My question was more along the lines of this...

 

 

I don't understand why a loving god can continue to punish humanity for something the current generation never did.

 

Whether a divine being(s) exists or not, I have no idea. I have no real problem with christianty ( or any other religion) so long as it promotes kindness to others and encourages them to do good work in the world. Believing in something larger than oneself can be a wonderful thing, and in some ways, I am envious of people who have this int heir life. I'm just not good at blind faith.

[Justanaverageguy]

It's not an opinion, it's data based on evidence.

 

I came to my own personal age of enlightenment through discussion, debate, research, and - you may find this peculiar, but it's true - prayer. I was a "true believer" for many years, active in my church, led bible studies and prayer groups. But after doing much research, discussions with both local religious leaders and some leading theologians (Marcus Borg, specifically, as well as Lee Strobel, and reading some William Lane Craig among others) and hard thinking about these things, I had no choice but to come to the inescapable conclusions that I outlined in my earlier post.

 

I don't expect to change your mind, and if you find comfort, compassion and community in your religion of choice, I completely and fully support that.

 

But there may be others who are witnessing this exchange who are on the fence, or just aren't sure. It's my contention that there is life after religion; indoctrination doesn't have to be a life-long sentence. One can break free of it and live a fulfilling, wonderful life full of love and joy. And forgiveness.

 

No god required.

 

Your story reminds me a lot of my own ... Raised heavily Catholic, forced into church at an early age, at first willingly but then as I aged over time increasingly unwillingly. After much internal debate, reading, research and inumerable discussions with other believers and atheists alike I came to the inescapable and only rational and logical conclusion that god was a fairy tale akin to Santa Claus made up by people who were seeking comfort in this crazy world.

 

I stayed firm in that position for nearly 15 years until I came across very difficult times in my life and at my lowest point when going off the rails ..... Much to my own shock and suprise had a direct experience of god which aligned exactly with what was taught in the Christian tradition. "Anyone who is thirsty come to me an drink - out of your heart will flow streams of living water". Brought me back from the brink of a very bad place.

 

The religious structure itself I agree is a little weird and outdated .... But the core teaching I assure you is based on truth. You can rationalise and philosophize till the cows come home about how it doesn't make sense to you.... In the end what you can rationalize or understand matters not.

At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

 

I can't criticize as I thought exactly the same as you did and was just as guilty of the above. God reveals himself to those you would least expect.

[major_merrick]

You've got two concepts going on - the state of the world (original sin) and forgiveness of sins.

 

 

 

When the Ten Commandments are given in Genesis, Chapter 20, God says:

 

 

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

 

The point of this passage is that criminal/disobedient behavior is often inherited. This is shown in sociology. I've seen it in my own family, as kids are influenced by a parent's bad behavior and turn to bad behavior themselves. But when God forgives and redeems, that influence is also passed on. It isn't about forgiveness of individuals, it is about inheritance of influence and traits! This is why the passage in Genesis and the passage in Ezekiel that todreaminblue mentioned are not contradictory - they are about different subjects. The world itself was also corrupted and poisoned by sin, ruining the perfect thing God made. That is the concept of original sin. So, we are all born sinners whether we like it or not. Even a baby in its mother's womb is not innocent, and capable of sin as part of its inherited human nature.

 

 

 

HOWEVER, Forgiveness is based on individual misdeeds, and when you are forgiven by God when you become saved, you are forgiven fully with no record of wrongs at all. That's where the principle of forgiveness comes from.

 

 

Why does God ask us to forgive? He explains it in the parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew chapter 18. When the king forgives the servant of a great debt he can't pay, but the servant won't forgive his fellow servant of a small debt (ie. he isn't grateful for what the king did for him), then the king is justifiably angry. The moral point is - if God forgives you of all the crap you did, then you can (with His help) find it in your heart to forgive another poor sinful person of what they did to you. And no, you're not expected to be talented at this immediately. It is a lifelong process that is very difficult for some people. I'm terrible at it.

 

 

 

My husband explained forgiveness in terms of a "right to vengeance." If someone hurts me, I would normally have a right to avenge that wrong (and I have, and I do.) However, because God withheld his right to vengeance upon me, I can do the same for other people. However, withholding vengeance is not the same as reconciliation. Sure, if someone asks my forgiveness and wants to amend the wrong they did, we can make peace. But most often, people do NOT. In that case, you can let go of your hatred and your plans to avenge and leave it to God, whether or not reconciliation happens. People misinterpret forgiveness as a requirement to reconcile. God wants reconciliation, but that takes two parties to achieve. God's standard is given in Romans 12:18 "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live at peace with all men." So forgiveness is an action of release on your part, not a commitment to reconcile and make yourself vulnerable to further injury. You are simply forgoing vengeance and releasing your feelings about the issue into God's care.

 

For example, my husband has forgiven his ex-wife for what she did to him. He let her go, no harm done. However, they don't have any contact and will never see each other again. He has no ill feelings toward her, but also knows they can never be friends.

[Justanaverageguy]

My question was more along the lines of this...

 

I don't understand why a loving god can continue to punish humanity for something the current generation never did.

 

Whether a divine being(s) exists or not, I have no idea. I have no real problem with christianty ( or any other religion) so long as it promotes kindness to others and encourages them to do good work in the world. Believing in something larger than oneself can be a wonderful thing, and in some ways, I am envious of people who have this int heir life. I'm just not good at blind faith.

 

So just my opinion but I think you have to differentiate "divine punishment" from the natural effects of sinful immoral behavior. Also to understand that we are a product of our parents - they are a product of their parents before them. Behaviors, mindset and the way we treat people are inherited not just genetically but simply from learned behaviors from others. Humans really are sheep - a pack creature - where the general behavior of the overall group effects and leads new individuals that come into that group.

 

Nobody today on this earth gets to start from a clean slate so to speak. This is really what the Adam and Eve story is getting at. We come into a world as part of a family .... with parents and siblings who we learn are influenced and guided by. We are part of larger communities which do the same. Its simply not possibly to have 2 parents who lived sinful immoral lives bring a child into the world without being effected by it. Its impossible. Each generation lays the foundation for the next .... so the behavior - be it positive or negative effects the ones that follow. This I believe is essentially the "moral behind the story" of adam and eve.

 

From my own observations of life - both my own and others - I am a strong believer in Karma. For me its not even a question - thats just how things work. Its blatantly obvious if you pay careful attention to peoples behaviours and results over the long term. Eventually people reap what they have sown. This law I believe is simply part of the fabric of reality. What we put out eventually comes back to us in some form or another. Its an auto-correction system designed to slowly teach and grow souls to become more selfless. To teach others to treat others as they would like to be treated. These are the rules of the game so to speak with some chance and luck or bad luck and coincidence and correction and temptation all thrown into the mix for good measure.

 

If I do some horrible to another person. Lets say for example purposes only: I knowingly committ adultery and have an affair which breaks up a family and causing huge distress and emotional pain upon that person's former partner who is cheated on. Eventually that bill is going to come due to me. I don't see this as divine punishment. It is simply the rules to how god created reality to work. I see it like complaining that the rules are wrong in tennis when you hit a ball out and lose the point. Trying to argue that you shouldn't lose the point even though you hit the ball out. I'm sorry but the rules are the rules and the key is to learn how to play the game correctly and then do so.

 

So God's forgiveness is not about us being allowed to avoid the ramifications of our actions. If we have done something terrible to someone else you can be sure the consequences will come. But forgiveness is what happens after those consequences come. One mistake like the one I described above can be enough to emotional destroy a person. A rape can do the same. God will make us suffer deep consequences for these - just as the man did going to jail. But he will also make available restoration after we have suffered these consequences if we see the error of our way, acknowledge our mistake and with an earnest heart wish to repent and change our ways. He will provide a path to restoration out of that situation which without him may not be possible. This is for the benefit of the individual - but also humanity as a whole. What use is a broken human who will simply spread more pain ? God is constantly healing the broken - both the victim and also the perpertator who repents - in order to reduce the negative effects on humanity as a group going forward.

 

But still many don't find or take that path. Many don't acknowledge their mistakes. Many don't change their ways. Many after their own karma comes due or challenges come in their life get angry and plow deeper into negative behaviors only increasing their problems and negative karma. This effects not just the individuals but also those around them and eventually future generations to come.

 

For me God has set rules about behavior which have consequences. He has also set a way for those who fail and would otherwise be lost in a downward spiral to recover. But at the end of the day what future generations receive is a product how today's generation conducts itself and decides to behave. God intercedes where he can .... but ultimately it is up to us to decide.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Artdeco]

we are not held responsible for the sins of another there are many bible verses about this but here's one i found for you op......

 

I am quoting the one you mentioned (Old Testament, Ezekiel, Verse 18:20), amongst others, but seriously, all it does is show that the bible and its "authors", whoever they are and for whatever reason they wrote stuff down, contradict themselves like all.the.time - which is one of the many reasons why I encourage thinking for ourselves (be it about forgiveness or loving your neighbor, or everything else, basically), rather than believing what some random people have hand-picked and written down. WRT religious people, in particular, I would expect that they know their stuff, but nobody seems to notice that not much of it makes sense, even less so if you want to base your "belief" on something like the "testaments". I mean, there are bible studies everywhere. I wonder what they are teaching there, seriously.

 

Just one example:

 

Old Testament

 

 

Exodus, 20:5- Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

Deuteronomy, 24:16- The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

Ezekiel, 18:19- Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

 

Numbers, 14:18- The Lord is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

 

(That one was mentioned above:) Old Testament, Ezekiel, Verse 18:20- The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

So as per Exodus and Numbers, children must and will suffer for their father’s sins, but Deuteronomy and Ezekiel say they don't .......... hmmmmmm. Which is it then?

 

And quite frankly, every.single.time somebody quotes a bible verse, I can find 20 others that say the complete opposite. Makes no sense. If you want a personal relationship with some higher being, fine - but why do people rely on the bible for that? It is completely man-made, with many errors/mistakes, and it is totally unsuitable as a "life guide".

 

It just does not contain any valuable information or consistent data.

[Justanaverageguy]

And quite frankly, every.single.time somebody quotes a bible verse, I can find 20 others that say the complete opposite. Makes no sense. If you want a personal relationship with some higher being, fine - but why do people rely on the bible for that? It is completely man-made, with many errors/mistakes, and it is totally unsuitable as a "life guide".

 

It just does not contain any valuable information or consistent data.

 

I think many Christians would agree with you on the old testament. It is essentially a collection of books written over large time spans by different authors about man trying to understand Gods laws ..... and then trying unsuccessfully to live by them. It basically follows many rises and falls of a specific society that goes through cycles of successes and then failures. Often the books are focused on a specific failure or challenge facing the people at a specific time. The stories often serving as examples or learning aids from the past from that experience. Even Jesus himself said the Jews had misunderstood or misinterpreted many of the things god had tried to pass on.

 

Christians however would think very differently about the gospel message and the New Testament which they see as God himself coming to earth to set an example and directly explain the correct way to live in order to become closer to him. If you look at life metaphorically as a "test". The Gospel is like the last class before you sit down to take your examination. For me when I was at University in all my Subjects that last class before the exam the teacher would use to often give students all the important examples of things you need to study in order to pass. Basically like a cheat sheet. Spoon feeding important examples to students to learn from so they can pass.

 

If you can find inconsistency within the gospel message of Jesus I would be interested to hear it.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Timshel]

My question was more along the lines of this...

 

I don't understand why a loving god can continue to punish humanity for something the current generation never did.

 

Whether a divine being(s) exists or not, I have no idea. I have no real problem with christianty ( or any other religion) so long as it promotes kindness to others and encourages them to do good work in the world. Believing in something larger than oneself can be a wonderful thing, and in some ways, I am envious of people who have this int heir life. I'm just not good at blind faith.

 

Forgiveness...what does that mean? I've sat across tables with people who are dead in their eyes. They knew I was jumping in and seeing that and very pleased to know I saw the void behind their eyes. It made them happy to know that I knew.

 

I have asked myself if my family were a victim of this person, could I forgive them? What is it to forgive? They certainly did not care, some feign the desire for 'redemption' and forgiveness but some people who have looked them in the eye know that this is only a continuation of nothing.

 

Forgiveness for oneself? Sure, if a person feels important enough to deem another person forgiven or not, whatever floats.

 

I choose to think of it as, 'how petty am I,' because I have suffered no loss as great as the people who are struggling to forgive unadulterated emptiness...that I will vouch for as zero.

 

It's more for myself, move on...the alternative is to stagnate in an unpleasant existence of regret. When you know better, you do better and will add, don't forget lest taught nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

No god required.

 

They always believe a lie that see with, not through the eye.

William Blake

 

I do believe.

[Ronni_W]

As an agnostic, I admittedly am not overly well versed in christian scripture,

As a believer in the Universal Christ Consciousness of God, I would say that it's not at all a bad thing to not be versed in the doctrines and dogma of what the Romans decided to give as the 'truth'

about the one true Christ and about the one true God. .

 

One of the principle of christianity is forgiveness. If this is true then why is it seemingly not possible for an omnipotent being to hold a grudge for thousands of years?

Why are humans (women especially) still being punished for the sins of our great X1000 grandparents, yet I shoudl feel guilty if I can;t forgive someone who has actually hurt me?

The unforgiveness, and blame and shame, that we experience on Earth does not come from God, nor from any true spiritual understanding of God, but only from all the other people on Earth

who are still only basing their spiritual values and views on what the Romans of the early Piscean Age decided to give as 'truth'. That is, it is not God that is not forgiving us and punishing us,

but that we are being judged and punished by the wrong programming of our continued wrong beliefs and trust in these Romans and their false teachings.

 

There is a warning against this, ("There is a way that seems right to a [human Being], but its end is the way of [spiritual] death"), but the people who consider themselves as current-day 'Christians'

(followers of the one true Christ) do not appear to want to take that warning into account in their self-righteous judgment against others.

 

Forgiveness means only that you do not judge others as being unworthy of spiritual forgiveness, not that you need to somehow find a way to make their lesser-lower attitudes, words and

actions be okay or acceptable at the physical level.

 

Even in the Christian New Testament it is made clear that we need to - we have a spiritual need to - separate ourselves from non-constructive, destructive and toxic people and environments:

"And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town." This is paraphrased in also Luke and Mark,

and also in the Old Testament's Book of Acts.

 

You have no need to feel guilty just because you will not tolerate, and accept into your own life for your own life experiences, non-constructive, destructive and toxic people and environments;

it does NOT necessarily mean that you are an unforgiving person or that you have not forgiven the other person.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Ronni_W
Clarification