still trying to figure out ex four years later

[grays]

Soooo, my ex was a very difficult person to be around. I know that we had an unhealthy dynamic between us and I’ve thought a lot during and after the relationship about whether he was abusing me emotionally, and what it means about him and me if he was. It wasn’t the stuff that was obvious from a mile away. And I have had a hard time seeing it — I make excuses for him even now. He is/was depressed, anxious, and severely OCD and the fact that he was hurting made it hard for me to see him as mean and demanding and controlling. All of that stuff felt so intertwined with his real mental illness that I couldn’t see him as responsible for it. It always felt that if we could only solve or control his emotional problems he would be such a great guy. And I saw him as that great guy a lot even when he wasn’t being great or treating me great. And I’m confused still about whether if he’s depressed/anxious/having scary obtrusive thoughts, how to see behaviors that seem to obviously flow from that.

 

For some reason this strange example of how he treated me has always kind of haunted me. In a way, it was pretty minor, but I think most of the time I was pretty blind to his negative/attacking behavior. It hurt me and I could see that, but I couldn’t see that it was bad behavior on his part. In this one moment (probably a few others, but few and far between) I had some inkling that he wasn’t being fair to me in a significant way.

 

The incident was this: This was probably some time in the first five years. We had just had sex, he was still lying on top of me, I was feeling close to him but also aware of his anxiety and nervous about somehow upsetting or provoking him (I felt that way a lot). I think I was absent-mindedly rubbing his back. And he got angry, told me I wasn’t doing it right, wasn’t caressing/touching him the way I should be, made him feel lonely and uncared for. I don’t remember the exact words or if it was a few sentences or a long tirade (this happened somewhere in the vacinity of 25 years ago), but I felt like he had punched me in the gut, and made me feel like profoundly lacking, not good enough, I couldn’t love him right.

 

I didn’t hold him accountable when he treated me that way and had a deep belief that it wasn’t his fault somehow. And I’m still confused about whether it would even be reasonable to think of it in those terms. So he could be mean/demanding/controlling consistently for years on end but I never would have described him that way or believed it if someone pointed it out (that only happened a couple of times and I thought those people were crazy). I thought he was loving and generous-hearted — but he desperately needed me just to survive, get through his day, and I think that felt like love to me.

 

Anyway... I’m thinking about this now because I had a session with my son’s therapist a few days ago and I was so shocked at what she had to say about him. Going into the appointment I was feeling nervous that she was going to call me on all my bad parenting moments. I really had no idea why she wanted to see us (he and I separately). But I think her main point to me was that he was ****ed up and I couldn’t rely on him to take care of our kid emotionally.

 

She said he was cold, overly controlling, and had no connection with our son. At one point early in the conversation I expressed my fear that our son would someday choose him over me and block me out. And she looked me right in the eye and said in a very serious tone, “that will never happen, [your son] doesn’t feel close to him and never has. I don’t think [ex] is capable of being close or warm to him.”

 

I felt like my head was exploding when I heard that. All kinds of crazy stuff rushing in and colliding. I was freaked about what it meant for my kids, what it meant for me as a parent (I thought they had two devoted parents, is it all on me now?), what it meant about me for picking him (I was only 18 years old, I would like to believe it was only because I was young and naive), and how it is that he had managed to convince me so thoroughly that he was a completely different person.

 

Also, why on earth it took until this session, over 30 years since I met him, to even entertain the idea that he’s not a good guy.

 

The therapist that I was seeing during our breakup was very adamant that he was a narcissist but I was CONVINCED that she only thought that because I had unfairly portrayed him.

 

After each of our marriage counseling sessions, he would throw an angry tantrum about the therapist taking my side (which I didn’t even see, I experienced him as being neutral). He convinced me that anything positive in my direction was obviously the result of the therapists crush on me and didn’t have any relationship to what was going on between us or who was right or wrong. After about five sessions the therapist fired us, just said he couldn’t see us in good conscience with no more explanation. Ex said with great authority (his usual posture) that that proved everything the guy said was just about manipulating me into liking him. I believed him.

 

This time, I’m floored because I have had very little contact with my son’s therapist. She’s getting her opinion from what she’s seen from my son and my ex (she’s actually had a lot more contact with him). I haven’t infected her opinion. And I trust her.

 

I don’t know if I have a particular question here except WTF?!!! How could I have made such a drastic 30 year mistake? Or am I just making this up. I still have a hard time believing that he’s not the smartest, most generous-hearted, insightful guy that ever happened.

[chillii]

Ahh , your being way too hard on yourself.

You know , we feel for someone like our h or w or someone very long term , we want it to work , we love many things about them but we see these things too.

lt's not always cut and dry and even if it was they still have all the things we do feel about them. Of course we want it to work and we want to see the good in them , and we hope that we're wrong about other stuff.

Sometimes things they do or say are such a fine line that it's almost impossible to tell and l suppose if he was a true narc he'd craft things in that way anyway , making it even harder.

lt can go on and on and around and around and somehow that line still stays just a little too blurry to tell one way or another. And you were only 18 when you got together , l mean give yourself a break woman,

 

l have someone l still wonder about too. l still analyze it all over and over , even though l'm with someone else now. l feel as though l'll never have closure about her stuff and who she was because l still just can;t quite nail it all down.

l got warned and told by an expert in no uncertain terms she did not hold back believe me.Yet for me the lines are still blurred.

The ex contacted me a few mths back , nothing we just just touched base and light talk. But l could see things even in that all this time later, but yet the lines are still very blurry as well. There's a lot of what ifs that meant whether we could've been together forever and worked out, or not. And what if if the shrink friend was wrong, l was wrong . or if we were both right and it never could have worked. lt might've even turned into a night mare. l know l'll always just wish l knew.

ln your case , that was really strong stuff she'd said , had she met him l couldn't tell , or was that just all through your son ? My shrink friend never met her and told me straight out that without actually meeting her and sitting down with her, she couldn't know for sure .

 

Anyway , your not alone , l'll wonder forever l think.

Edited January 26, 2019 by chillii

[chillii]

Do you still love him grays ?

[preraph]

He sounds either like a narcissist or kind of sociopathic -- two of the three types who have little empathy. So yes, he's probably one of those. The third would be psychopath, which you'd know by now.

 

So what happened is he conned you into accepting his mental health as an excuse, and now we have his therapist diagnosing him as a narcissist, which makes sense. You should either talk to her all about it or maybe ask her to recommend a book or article about it so you get the picture. They typically just don't understand why everyone doesn't give them first priority. They have little or no empathy. And they can NEVER admit they're wrong. One way they can show they know they're wrong is by doing something nice after a big incident where they were wrong, but they cannot admit they're wrong. Of course, all these traits are on a scale from low to high, but he wouldn't be diagnosed that way if he was low on the scale, so he's fairly high.

 

You enabled him to keep up that behavior and thank goodness your son didn't like him because that is his role model and it could have ruined him. That's not to say he didn't still pick up some of that behavior. You and him are his two main models for how he's supposed to behave and interpret what love is.

 

Talk to your therapist about it and find out more. She is probably limited to what she can discuss specifically about him, being a patient, but she can talk in the abstract hypothetically about narcissistic behavior.

 

I'm so glad you're not with him anymore. You've got to get some better boundaries! If you tolerate people like that, you will attract them. They will do some little thing you'd feel foolish for calling them out on, and that's how it begins. So from now on, you call anyone out who does something disrespectful and not let them stay.

[Lotsgoingon]

Well ... I think I can identify with what you're saying.

 

There's a writer out there named Adam Grant ... who talks about people who "see the best' in the other people. These folks make for excellent teachers, really inspiring coaches and often really good managers and so on ... because they can see the potential of someone and really bring that out.

 

The problem is that the habit of "seeing the best" in people ... can be pathological and destructive (self-destructive) when applied to relationships. See for managers and teachers, there are systems of accountability built in, boundaries and limits that ultimately allow people to draw the line against bad behavior. A teacher can see the potential in a kid ... overlook some of the kid's problems ... tap into the kid's desire to get some praise ... and bring out the best in a kid ...

 

But ... that teacher is taking roll ... knows they cannot excuse huge attendance problems ... knows they have to report really disruptive or threatening behavior ... gives tests ... gives grades ... That teacher will take a stand and draw boundaries because if they don't, the other kids will lose respect for the teacher ...

 

Take away that system of accountability and being a person who overwhelmingly "sees the best" in other people ... can be disastrous.

 

There are people married to folks who suffer head injuries ... Head injuries can lead to violent outbursts and really destructive behavior on the part of people who previously were quite gentle. Guess what? The partners will separate, will call police ... will pull away. Why? Because it's not their job to put up with the results of the brain injury. And in fact, if there are kids involved, it is downright reckless and irresponsible and negligent to keep themselves around that behavior--no matter the cause!

 

Marriage is about being with someone who is functioning well right now--not in the future ... not based on potential ... but right now. If the person can't function well right now, if they cannot give love, if they cannot receive love, they cannot be a good partner. Does not matter the reason. If you feel sorry for them, be their friend. Dating them or marrying them is folly.

 

Frankly, we ALL have conditions ... we all have some flaws in our personalities ... lots of us have trauma and pain from childhood ... family histories of addiction and depression and anger ... and so on. You could ultimate make excuses for everyone's behavior ... and that's fine ... but not fine in marriage!

 

Now ... to change the perspective ... there are simply some people who come into our lives ... who somehow dazzle us and blind us to their weaknesses and problems. This guy might have simply had the rare and unusual constellation of qualities that fooled your relationship radar. Bad luck ... but it happens.

 

Anyway, good luck ... I get how shocking and transforming this insight you describe can be ... Most people probably need to be more understanding of others ... and more critical of themselves. For you, the opposite is true. You're in that group of folks that need to believe in themselves more, demand more ... and be more critical of others. Glad you got there!

 

Credit to you--it's a hard journey.

[Arieswoman]

grays,

Stop knocking yourself, you've come a long way.

 

 

Sometimes we 'can't see the wood for the trees' or we choose not to acknowledge unpalatable truths because we don't want to/aren't ready to deal with them.

 

 

People come to things in their own time and that time for you is now.

 

 

Keep working at this, and it will become clearer as you gain more understnding.

 

 

Good luck x

[Curiousroxy86]

Yep that's what years of gas lighting, manipulation, and all other types of narcissistic abuse would do to you. I have experienced a few months of it and find myself still shocked about wtf just happen and wtf was I thinking. So I can't even imagine how you feel being married to that scum for years. Just be glad your out. Take it day by day. Feel what you feel WITHOUT guilt. Then redirect back to wisdom afterwards. Rinse repeat till you naturally you realize I'm not even thinking about that pos anymore.

[grays]

I’m sorry I disappeared for a few days! Things got hectic. And thank you for the thoughtful replies. I’m happy to hear that I’m not the only one, but also sorry that others have faced this kind of thing, too.

 

Do you still love him grays ?

 

I’m not sure, but definitely not in a way that would make me want to be with him or even around him. But, I’m still pretty quick to defend him and empathize with him. It was a little easier when I was full of rage and anger.

 

I do find myself smirking about what the OW must be dealing with now, though. I’m fairly certain they’re having pretty much the same relationship that we had. Interestingly, he left me for a 42 year old virgin, so she might be willing to put up with an awful lot.

[Arieswoman]

grays,

I think that your problem is that you aren't missing him, or in love with him but with the image if who you thought he was or could be. You made excuses for his behaviour because of his 'mental health'.

 

 

I was married to a man who was verbally abusive/lied/gaslighted me/manilpulated me but blamed his poor behaviou on being 'tired' from his shift work ( ! ) and I accepted that.

It took years of theraspy for me to repair the psychological dmage he did to me.

 

 

Just be really glad you're out of this but don't waste too much mental energy trying to understnd someone who just isn't wired the same as most people.

 

 

Good luck x