I'm addicted to women and need to hold myself accountable.

[Wallysbears]

If you feel the need to "step out" of your marriage then you need to be honest and TELL YOUR WIFE that you want to step out of the marriage.

 

If you don't want to be monogamous, don't get married.

 

It really isn't that complicated.

[CantGetEnuff]

@Wallybears, so you're saying virtually no men should get married.

 

And maybe that's the answer.

 

Because men have different hard-wiring than women have, and there's no way for us to argue around it. Even if they tell themselves, because of society, that they want to "settle down," most of them experience the "fighting the DNA" conflict soon thereafter.

 

We're not even talking about concepts of right and wrong here, just practicality.

[JuneL]

It’s an easy fix. Just don’t get committed to one woman for a long period. You can date around casually, or date a long series of different women sequentially, or have an open relationship. But be honest with the women involved with you.

 

@SmartDude,

 

I've had some of the same thought exercises over the years.

 

I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that evolution drives men to be monogamous. In fact, it's the exact opposite. We're programmed to 'spread the wealth,' so to speak. And it's not just me or you, it's men in general. You and I aren't biologically unique, hell we're the template.

 

So we've set up this society where men are expected to be monogamous with one women for 20, 30, 40+ years when every fiber of our DNA is telling us this is not natural. Is anyone surprised at the number of divorces or affairs? At men's obsession with porn, sex chat, anything to do with seeing/interacting with women?

 

So what's the 'fix?'I don't know.

[Wallysbears]

@Wallybears, so you're saying virtually no men should get married.

 

And maybe that's the answer.

 

Because men have different hard-wiring than women have, and there's no way for us to argue around it. Even if they tell themselves, because of society, that they want to "settle down," most of them experience the "fighting the DNA" conflict soon thereafter.

 

We're not even talking about concepts of right and wrong here, just practicality.

 

I think you are assuming that most men are like you. I know many people that have long lasting marriages where the men do not step out and feel the need to cheat on their wives.

 

My parents were nearly 50 years before my Dad passed away, my in laws are at 50 years, all of my aunts and uncles/my IL relatives. Coworkers, etc.

 

Plenty of men are perfectly content to have stable, long lasting marriages and keep their penis in the pants.

[JuneL]

@Wallybears, so you're saying virtually no men should get married.

 

And maybe that's the answer.

 

Because men have different hard-wiring than women have, and there's no way for us to argue around it. Even if they tell themselves, because of society, that they want to "settle down," most of them experience the "fighting the DNA" conflict soon thereafter.

 

We're not even talking about concepts of right and wrong here, just practicality.

 

The majority of men didn’t have multiple affairs while in a marriage; they also don’t keep sexting other women. They also didn’t lie to their wives about their fidelity.

 

Have you considered sex addiction treatment?

[CantGetEnuff]

We're not even talking about me right now. We're talking about men in general.

 

I mean, we need to talk about the WHY. Why do people push marriage when we all know that most of them fail in some way.

 

Divorce = failure

Unhappy marriage = failure

Husband cheating = failure

Wife cheating = failure

 

I mean basically, for it to not be "failure," both parties have to remain happy from wedding to one of them dies. And people live much much longer now than we did just 100 years ago, and it's soooooo much easier now to meet and connect with other people (hell, 100 years ago most people never traveled more than 50 miles from their home).

 

It just seems that we're clinging to outdated rules and I'm not sure why we are.

[Rayce]

I have to agree with the guys here. I think the whole concept of "till death do we part" doesn't work. I have no solution though. It traps people. My parents were married for 50 miserable years yet to them it was YES WE DID IT! Now we are eligible to go to "heaven"... so some thought process like that. It was hell growing up in a loveless marriage. It's only after their death that I learn they were swingers and both my parents were bi... my father who was 78 had active craigslist ads looking for a male lover... lovely... think about that. What will your kids find out about you after death?

 

Thanks to my parents.. I have no clue what a healthy relationship looks like and from reading these boards and observing those around me over the years... I don't think very many people really do. You really have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.

[elaine567]

It just seems that we're clinging to outdated rules and I'm not sure why we are.

 

 

I'm guessing your "new found ways" are starting to rankle.

[CantGetEnuff]

@Rayce,

 

Absolutely!

 

And look I am not trying to paint anyone as the 'bad guy.'

 

It's just facts. Traditional ideas of marriage are very outdated for our modern society. I mean, if anyone else suggested a social behavior that had like a 70-80% failure rate (my personal estimate, counting divorce, unhappy couples, and any cheating), people would say, "What the hell kind of idea is this?"

[Tamfana]

@SmartDude,

 

I've had some of the same thought exercises over the years.

 

I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that evolution drives men to be monogamous. In fact, it's the exact opposite. We're programmed to 'spread the wealth,' so to speak. And it's not just me or you, it's men in general. You and I aren't biologically unique, hell we're the template.

 

So we've set up this society where men are expected to be monogamous with one women for 20, 30, 40+ years when every fiber of our DNA is telling us this is not natural. Is anyone surprised at the number of divorces or affairs? At men's obsession with porn, sex chat, anything to do with seeing/interacting with women?

 

So what's the 'fix?'I don't know.

 

There isn't only one evolutionary drive for men, or for people in general. For many or most there are several drives and one of them is the need for community.

 

You see it come into play for even the most individualistic people when they are sick or disabled in some way, such as when we age. (Keep in mind that viagra and cialis are VERY recent inventions, if ya get my drift. ha) At the primal level, we all need others even if only when we are injured, sick or aging, temporarily or long term.

 

Also, in a broader sense, groups are stronger and more productive than individuals are. Both practically and emotionally, people also need... people.

 

That might be why you aren't telling your wife the truth about who you are and what you have done and are doing- you don't want to lose your primary community, your family.

 

I always wonder why the super-individualistic people grouse about the social pressures to marry or be monogamous. It's very easy to just be alone and be a free agent sexually. But a lot of them don't want that at all. They want both the community of family or a partner who keeps the home fires burning AND no strings attached.

[FMW]

There are men who honor their marital vows. That doesn't mean they aren't ever attracted to other women, it just means they value their marriages more than their animal cravings.

 

There are married men who cheat and feel entitled to act on every urge they have. They are selfish and self-involved and want the security and stability of having a wife at home but want to screw whoever else captures their attention for the moment.

 

There are men who realize they aren't cut out for commitment and remain single and free to act on their urges without lying and cheating.

[JuneL]

@Rayce,

 

Absolutely!

 

And look I am not trying to paint anyone as the 'bad guy.'

 

It's just facts. Traditional ideas of marriage are very outdated for our modern society. I mean, if anyone else suggested a social behavior that had like a 70-80% failure rate (my personal estimate, counting divorce, unhappy couples, and any cheating), people would say, "What the hell kind of idea is this?"

 

That’s what’s beyond me. Nobody was pointing a gun at you to get married, I assume? In fact, men like you shouldn’t be married to begin with. So I agree. You shouldn’t be married.

[CantGetEnuff]

@JuneL,

 

And you're right, I probably shouldn't have. But I am, and it's deciding not to get married in the first place and deciding to end an (longish) marriage to a good person, and with kids, are very different decisions.

 

My wife is a great person, smart, and sexy, and my kids are great.

 

So yes although I should have stayed single, I didn't, and I'm here to make the most of it and be a better husband to her.

 

That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to engage in thought exercises and point out the (obvious) issues with the whole idea of marriage.

 

I haven't stepped out physically with another woman for a long time, and I see no reason I can't keep that track record going.

[elaine567]

I always wonder why the super-individualistic people grouse about the social pressures to marry or be monogamous. It's very easy to just be alone and be a free agent sexually. But a lot of them don't want that at all. They want both the community of family or a partner who keeps the home fires burning AND no strings attached.

 

 

Exactly, few are forced into marriage or monogamy in reality.

If monogamy is not your thing then would you want to mess monogamous people up?

It is pure selfishness...

[Wallysbears]

 

Thanks to my parents.. I have no clue what a healthy relationship looks like and from reading these boards and observing those around me over the years... I don't think very many people really do..

 

Maybe that's the bigger issue then?

 

I wonder if it is people that didn't have the modeling of healthy marriages/relationships are the ones that have an issue with marriage and fidelity.

[Rayce]

Society teaches us from a very small age that we need to grow up and get married and be monogamous all other lifestyles are not acceptable. Luckily things are changing and people are now more free to be who they really are and not hide behind closed doors.

[elaine567]

Monogamy works in peaceful societies as it gives every man the chance of a wife, a family and the chance to pass on their genes.

It is good for kids and is good for maintaining peace.

Gangs of eternal bachelors are fantastic for fighting wars but gangs of eternal bachelors roaming the streets and fighting over women isn't good.

[Tamfana]

Exactly, few are forced into marriage or monogamy in reality.

If monogamy is not your thing then would you want to mess monogamous people up?

It is pure selfishness...

 

Yep. Also, deceit undermines the community, the family, as we know from hearing the stories of the children, men and women who've had parents or partners deceive them about their activities.

 

It's hard to not sound condemning on this topic but the message is, make your choice and stand by it no matter what you're choosing. Don't pretend to not know the natural consequences of your choice whichever it might be. Deceit is a choice.

 

This family factor is so often ignored by the people who view monogamy as unnatural or an oppression. But the benefits are apparent when you hit your 50's and 60's and see people who have built a marriage and family for decades and you're alone.

[Mr. Lucky]

There are men who honor their marital vows. That doesn't mean they aren't ever attracted to other women, it just means they value their marriages more than their animal cravings.

 

CantGetEnuff, I wonder if this equation isn't slightly backwards for men like you?

 

It's not that your "animal cravings" are so strong, but rather the value you place on your marriage is so relatively little. With your ego-driven view of the world and track record of success with women, some part of you may view your spouse as fairly disposable.

 

I mean sure, you'd miss her, but I'd wager you're sure your bed wouldn't be cold for long...

 

Mr. Lucky

[The Dude Abides]

Gangs of eternal bachelors are fantastic for fighting wars but gangs of eternal bachelors roaming the streets and fighting over women isn't good.

 

 

LOL Elaine, I never heard it stated this way, but you're right on the mark with this one.

 

I personally am quite happy with stability and my long-term lack of variety

[CantGetEnuff]

@Mr Lucky, that's an interesting idea you brought up...

 

Maybe? I don't know. I don't really think my view of the world is "ego driven." I prefer to think I'm just pragmatic.

 

1) I think many people lie (to themselves and others) about how they really feel deep down inside about their relationship/marriage/what have you.

 

2) I feel many people feel that they don't really have a lot of options, or just despise dating, and they are thus elated to have "locked down" someone.

 

3) And I think a TON of people just "go with the flow" (i.e. follow the majority) and get married without really thinking, "Crap, if this 'succeeds,' I will have to answer to this person for the next 50 years.'" Think about how young most people are when they get married; in their 20s and early 30s. There is no way that they can fully comprehend the decision they are making. It's like asking an 8th grader what they want to do career-wise for the rest of their lives.

 

Think about how many people just "go with the flow" without thinking a lot about it.

 

Getting a house = "going with the flow." A LOT of people would be better off without a house, but that is rarely acknowledged.

 

Getting married and having kids = "going with the flow." It's sort of expected, from all the ways women are socialized with media/institutions all the way down to grandparents pressing for grandchildren.

 

Think about the "old gag" of the bride chasing the groom down, or the wife being the "old ball and chain." You think those ideas came out of nowhere??

 

I just wish people would be honest about these issues and stop demonizing others who point out the numerous and significant flaws.

[Wallysbears]

The thing is? It is too late to have these 'revelations' once you've already gotten married.

 

The time to ponder these questions isn't when you are knee deep in infidelity after having betrayed and lied to your spouse so many times it can't be counted. The time to ponder these things was before you said "I do".

 

sitting around and debating the institution of marriage is fine. Just not when you ARE married and cheating and hiding that from your partner.

[Mr. Lucky]

@Mr Lucky, that's an interesting idea you brought up...

 

Maybe? I don't know. I don't really think my view of the world is "ego driven." I prefer to think I'm just pragmatic.

 

1) I think many people lie (to themselves and others) about how they really feel deep down inside about their relationship/marriage/what have you.

 

2) I feel many people feel that they don't really have a lot of options, or just despise dating, and they are thus elated to have "locked down" someone.

 

Agreed. And I'd offer your self-described "superiority complex" makes these points less compelling to you.

 

Getting a house = "going with the flow." A LOT of people would be better off without a house, but that is rarely acknowledged.

 

Getting married and having kids = "going with the flow." It's sort of expected, from all the ways women are socialized with media/institutions all the way down to grandparents pressing for grandchildren.

 

Staying faithful to your marriage = "going with the flow." ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[elaine567]

...some part of you may view your spouse as fairly disposable.

...or he is secure in the fact she will not divorce him, no matter what he does.

[Wallysbears]

...or he is secure in the fact she will not divorce him, no matter what he does.

 

Can't be that secure if he's hiding the affairs.