So many clichés, so obvious... how come I cant stop it?

[pepperbird]

My guess? your ow in the number 2. Many men can't recognize when they are being played, and this woman is playing at least two men. She's got you wrapped around her little finger.

 

 

Think of it this way. Putting aside the affair for a moment, look at what she is doing to the guy she agreed to marry. That is one of the biggest commitments a person can make. Look at how she is lying to him. How much of his time, money and emotional investment is she willing to ask him to absorb because she claims to be too chickensh#t to say "no" when he asked her to marry him? She can't even claim to have no one else...she has you and yet she still can't do it.

 

Look at how she's lying to her friends and family. She's presenting this "love story" to them, accepting their gifts, asking some to travel to be there for her wedding. She's luxuriating in the attention of bachelorette parties, wedding shows, wedding planning, wedding showers, dress shopping, pampering session for the stressed out bride to be, and she's doing all of this while she claims to not want to marry him at all?

 

Not only that, she's a good enough liar to convince him she loves and cares for him above all others. How do you think she's doing that? If she can fool him, what makes you think you're any different?

 

 

 

You already have one huge red flag right in front of your face. Her ability to lie. Her ability to coldly put you in one box and her fiance in another, all while working hard to convince you both that she loves you.

 

 

Do you really think you can trust her? Do you really believe you even know her that well at all?

 

If you still can't see it, ask yourself this. If it was a good friend of yours in your shoes asking you these sorts of questions about a woman and her behvaior, what would your answers be? If you could come up with an honest answer for him, then you already know what you need to do.

[BaileyB]

With regards to the broad moral judgements, believe me, you are not opening my eyes. I am much harsher with myself. I read between your lines good intentions, as if I needed enlightenment on the ethical gravity of what I have been doing. I am perfectly aware.

 

Yes, I am concerned with hurting other people. Yes, it has not stopped my selfish behavior. Yes, I dont want to hurt her BF just because it would make me feel better. Yes, I am concerned about my wife. Yes, I am concerned about the OW. Yes, I am also concerned about me. I am by no means an example of generosity, but I am not indifferent to peoples' suffering.

 

I totally agree with you that this line of behavior, acting repeatedly against your own moral values, has long term implications. It undermines the fundamental pillars of a person. It has to be recognized as a mistake and corrected. I know that.

 

You sure know how to talk the talk. The problem is, you have absolutely no idea how to walk the walk. Or perhaps, you are just unwilling to actually walk the walk. The lack of boundaries, inappropriate behavior in the workplace, lack of respect for your wife/her boyfriend, sense of entitlement and absolute refusal to take responsibility and be accountable for your own behavior is epic... This story has it all.

 

You acknowledge that you are in the wrong. My question becomes, what are you planning to do to right this wrong? Surely your best plan is not to continue to post and try to analyze the motives of the other woman...

Edited March 29, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote edited

[Amethyst68]

The super anxious, mess of option 1 OW who regrets accepting the proposal is not the OW you have described in your other posts. In those you discuss how calmly she is planning her wedding, going to pre-wedding events. In fact you've just called her a sociopath.

Option 1 has you as the poor MM going through the classic mid life crisis. It also reinforces how your wife is your back up plan. If she split up from her BF you'd be gone in 2 years, or at least carry on the affair for another 2 years.

Both options have you as the victim of a predatory OW. Both of you are adults, responsible ones who have decided to lie to their closest friends and family for years. You are fully aware of your choices and have used each other for sex and excitement, now you don't want to return to your mundane life.

[mark clemson]

What is messed up in this situation, the reason for the title of this whole thread, is how, even understanding all that, I find myself in this trap?

 

Am I simply weaker than I thought? Am I addicted and need some treatment? Is it just a temporary loss of judgement due to a middle life crises, or some sort of PTSD? Is this just something as simple as sex? I know that I am not going to find the answers in a forum, but it is very interesting to see how similar these situations are. I am learning a lot.

 

 

Well, quite a bit of it can be seen as having to do with brain chemistry:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201501/is-your-brain-love

 

 

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/12/8025525/love-neuroscience

[Timshel]

If I may ask ManMar, what was to happen in three...now two years time to make you available for the OW? Kids going off to university, your company being sold...?

 

It's fairly obvious that something was/is to happen to make things easier to leave your wife, what is it? Most assuredly it is regarding money, as all well heeled folk are inclined.

 

 

All this preoccupation with a woman that is not your wife means, as you claim, you are in love and should file for divorce from your wife. Not doing so when your head and heart are clearly elsewhere is troubling, to say the least.

 

You remain quite methodical. I'd venture two peas in a pod, to answer your last question.

[ManMar]

My guess? your ow in the number 2. Many men can't recognize when they are being played, and this woman is playing at least two men. She's got you wrapped around her little finger.

 

Think of it this way. Putting aside the affair for a moment, look at what she is doing to the guy she agreed to marry. That is one of the biggest commitments a person can make. Look at how she is lying to him. How much of his time, money and emotional investment is she willing to ask him to absorb because she claims to be too chickensh#t to say "no" when he asked her to marry him? She can't even claim to have no one else...she has you and yet she still can't do it.

 

Look at how she's lying to her friends and family. She's presenting this "love story" to them, accepting their gifts, asking some to travel to be there for her wedding. She's luxuriating in the attention of bachelorette parties, wedding shows, wedding planning, wedding showers, dress shopping, pampering session for the stressed out bride to be, and she's doing all of this while she claims to not want to marry him at all?

 

Not only that, she's a good enough liar to convince him she loves and cares for him above all others. How do you think she's doing that? If she can fool him, what makes you think you're any different?

 

You already have one huge red flag right in front of your face. Her ability to lie. Her ability to coldly put you in one box and her fiance in another, all while working hard to convince you both that she loves you.

 

Do you really think you can trust her? Do you really believe you even know her that well at all? .

 

What can I say... I think you are right, I have gone through exactly the same rational many times in my head.... I know how to judge people: when in doubt, forget words and look at actions, particularly those that are trade offs, and ask yourself with which motivations are those actions coherent .... when she has to decide and make priorities, where are the trade offs pointing at?.... I gone through that exercise many times...the evidence is not telling me what I would like to hear, and it is hard to swallow.

 

Yes. I have been closing my eyes to the evidence. I want to believe her and I dont have many reasons to do it.

 

You know what, I think the wedding day is going to be extremely painful for me, but at the same time it is going to force me look reality on its eyes. When I see her with her fiancee, in front of all people, the farce will become evident. It is going to be both disgusting and therapeutic looking how she behaves.

 

Btw, you assumed in your previous post that I say I love you to my wife. I haven't done it for a very long time. It was the only island of decency that I wanted to keep. Not lying to her on that. Not that it makes me better, but I simply could not do that.

 

Answering your question: I dont trust the OW. That is the ugly truth.

[ManMar]

If I may ask ManMar, what was to happen in three...now two years time to make you available for the OW? Kids going off to university, your company being sold...?

 

It's fairly obvious that something was/is to happen to make things easier to leave your wife, what is it? Most assuredly it is regarding money, as all well heeled folk are inclined.

 

 

All this preoccupation with a woman that is not your wife means, as you claim, you are in love and should file for divorce from your wife. Not doing so when your head and heart are clearly elsewhere is troubling, to say the least.

 

You remain quite methodical. I'd venture two peas in a pod, to answer your last question.

 

No, it is not about money.

 

We moved to a different country at a time when my wife was already aware that my mind was not in her. Just before the moving, we had a serious conversation and she told me "I dont know wtf you have in your head, but promise me you are not making us move only to leave us, whatever you want to do, wait until our son has finished high school, he really needs you and that is above you and me". I promised her that I would stay no matter what.

 

Yes, my head and heart are with the OW, but for the wrong reasons. I want to heal myself. It is a mistake of epic proportions.

[Timshel]

For the love of everything decent in you, beg off the wedding. You will regret being such a coward for the rest of your days if you go. She shouldn't want you there either...if there is one lie you assist each other without guilt, it should be not attending her wedding.

[ManMar]

Well, quite a bit of it can be seen as having to do with brain chemistry:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201501/is-your-brain-love

 

 

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/12/8025525/love-neuroscience

 

Many thanks.

[ManMar]

For the love of everything decent in you, beg off the wedding. You will regret being such a coward for the rest of your days if you go. She shouldn't want you there either...if there is one lie you assist each other without guilt, it should be not attending her wedding.

 

I am not sure why assisting is an act of cowardly. All the opposite, it is not that I want to assist.

[Timshel]

You've been drinking, go to bed. Drink lot's of water, take a vitamin C and when you wake up, take a walk or meditate before you start thinking.

[ManMar]

The super anxious, mess of option 1 OW who regrets accepting the proposal is not the OW you have described in your other posts. In those you discuss how calmly she is planning her wedding, going to pre-wedding events. In fact you've just called her a sociopath.

Option 1 has you as the poor MM going through the classic mid life crisis. It also reinforces how your wife is your back up plan. If she split up from her BF you'd be gone in 2 years, or at least carry on the affair for another 2 years.

Both options have you as the victim of a predatory OW. Both of you are adults, responsible ones who have decided to lie to their closest friends and family for years. You are fully aware of your choices and have used each other for sex and excitement, now you don't want to return to your mundane life.

 

I did not call her a sociopath. In that you are wrong.

 

I am not the victim in this, I have free will. You are also wrong in this.

 

However, your last line contains a lot of truth. Much more than you think. I believe a lot have to do exactly with that: a mid-life crises on my side, losing her freedom on hers. I think we may have been using each other as an escape from the boredom of reality. That is the risk, we both want to keep that escape, when we are together we live this fantasyland where everything is possible, we both have become addicted to that bubble.

[ManMar]

You've been drinking, go to bed. Drink lot's of water, take a vitamin C and when you wake up, take a walk or meditate before you start thinking.

 

hahaha, no, I have not been drinking. Thanks.

[ManMar]

You sure know how to talk the talk. The problem is, you have absolutely no idea how to walk the walk. Or perhaps, you are just unwilling to actually walk the walk. The lack of boundaries, inappropriate behavior in the workplace, lack of respect for your wife/her boyfriend, sense of entitlement and absolute refusal to take responsibility and be accountable for your own behavior is epic... This story has it all.

 

You acknowledge that you are in the wrong. My question becomes, what are you planning to do to right this wrong? Surely your best plan is not to continue to post and try to analyze the motives of the other woman...

 

No, that is not the plan. The plan is to quit, learn and move on. You are right, I may be eloquent, but rhetoric is useless, I have to walk the walk. Thanks-

[BaileyB]

No, that is not the plan. The plan is to quit, learn and move on. You are right, I may be eloquent, but rhetoric is useless, I have to walk the walk. Thanks-

 

Walking the walk means having the personal integrity to do what is right by both women and the husband to be - don’t attend the wedding.

[ManMar]

Walking the walk means having the personal integrity to do what is right by both women and the husband to be - don’t attend the wedding.

 

I honestly dont see how integrity and going to that wedding are connected.

 

Again, it is not my favorite plan precisely. If you are thinking I will be attending to get in bed with her, or to have any intimate conversation or to make the wedding in any way about us.... that is absolutely not the case.

 

The wedding makes me sick. I am the founder of the company where she is a junior partner. My wife and other partner are invited. It would become very obvious if I dont attend last minute. I am going to take it as a necessary electroshock, it is going to be extremely painful and hopefully healing, I dont think I will want to see her again in my life after that.

Edited March 28, 2019 by ManMar

[BaileyB]

I honestly dont see how integrity and going to that wedding are connected.

 

The wedding makes me sick. I am the founder of the company where she is a junior partner. My wife and other partner are invited. It is going to be extremely painful and hopefully healing, I dont think I will want to see her again in my life after that.

 

Well, how do you think your wife would feel if she knew she was attending the wedding of the woman you have been having an affair with for years? Do you think it’s fair to ask her to attend the wedding? The respectful thing to do for your wife, if she was your priority, would be to decline the invitation.

 

And what about the groom? How do you think he would feel if he knew that the man who has been having sex with his wife the entirety of his relationship was sitting in the third row... Do you think it’s respectful to this man, for you to attend the wedding?

 

I think the wedding day is going to be extremely painful for me, but at the same time it is going to force me look reality on its eyes. When I see her with her fiancee, in front of all people, the farce will become evident.

 

The reasons why you want to attend this weddings are purely selfish. First, you are attending to maintain an appearance of respectability within the company. It goes without saying, if you were worried about your reputation, you wouldn’t be banging the junior partner. But, the more important reason why you want to attend is to look reality in the eye. You seem to think that watching this woman say her wedding vows will somehow help you to come to terms with the reality of the situation, and perhaps end the affair. I say “perhaps” because your last line is very telling... “You don’t think you will want to see her again in your life,” but you are not sure... Even with the judgment that you pass on her, judgment that should equally be directed in your direction when you look in the mirror, you are not committed to ending the affair and go no contact.

 

Integrity, what does that have to do with attending the wedding? Integrity is doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking. Sir, you are taking your wife to attend your affair partner’s wedding. As her husband looks out into the crowd of family and friends, he will see you sitting there, assuming that you are celebrating their union - not knowing that you have been having sex with his wife throughout his entire relationship.

 

Considering that you are the senior partner in the firm, and clearly a very intelligent man based on your analysis of this whole situation, I find it difficult to believe that you don’t understand this...

Edited March 28, 2019 by BaileyB

[Amethyst68]

Does your other partner in the business know about the affair? Do you think the days and nights spent with this woman have escaped their notice?

My apologies I reread the sociopath comment and remembered it was a sarcastic/humorous response you made.

I agree you're not a victim but in both scenarios you described you portray yourself as the passive partner.

Moving your family to another country when you're considering leaving your wife is an extremely underhand move, especially if you moved to the OW's country.

[ManMar]

Does your other partner in the business know about the affair? Do you think the days and nights spent with this woman have escaped their notice?

My apologies I reread the sociopath comment and remembered it was a sarcastic/humorous response you made.

I agree you're not a victim but in both scenarios you described you portray yourself as the passive partner.

Moving your family to another country when you're considering leaving your wife is an extremely underhand move, especially if you moved to the OW's country.

 

Nothing to do with that. It was a business decision. I actually moved away from the OW. We are in separate offices, I visit her office every couple of weeks.

[ManMar]

Update-

 

We are in an uncomfortable limbo, it is me who is holding it, I just need to make a move and I will precipitate a full closure. I forced my hand and demanded clear answers, the response was the obvious one: she is getting married and that speaks for itself.

 

She says she is at the edge of a breakdown; I am obviously also under a lot of stress. She knows I deeply care when she is not well, I think she is playing that card. We continue texting, on a good tone, although we both know we are broken between us and inside us. We both want to maintain forms, as the situation is quite complicated.

 

Unfortunately, I have to assume that every move of the OW is going to be based on self interest. I dont think she is a bad person, but I do think self preservation is going to dominate her actions. I hate thinking on her in those terms, but I cannot close my eyes to reality any longer.

 

My focus is how to disentangle all this mess with minimum damage for everybody.

 

There are several aspects

 

Business- She knows that she has to leave, but we have not talked about the details. We would need to start planning it, including a formal disclosure to partners, a hand over of functions and some legal stuff. She may have some hopes that she can continue working with us, given that she is valuable. Her incentive is to buy time, play nice with me and leave all job decisions post honeymoon, in two months time, hoping that she will be in a better position somehow. I need to decide whether I force an action now or I leave her postponing.

 

I have already talked to my partner, anticipating that we might lose her as she is thinking on moving with her soon to be husband (he works in a different city). I dont want anything to unfold as a surprise. My partner wants to retain her somehow, she will need to decline any proposition.

 

My wife-- she is almost certain the OW and I had something in the past. I have not confirmed anything, but I have told her that the OW might be leaving the company and that I am not going to do anything to stop it. She sees me very stressed, and tells me that it is due to something more personal going on, not just the business implications of her departure. She even asked, as it was nothing: "are you in love with her?". I denied, but I told her "I don't want her around anymore". She assumes this is the resolution of something, although she is not aware of how big that something has been. My wife is a superwoman that I dont deserve.

 

The OW - I think she has put us mentally on the past. She is going to focus on her marriage. From a practical perspective, this is an excellent position to facilitate a way out. However, it is in her best interest not to close this entirely.

On one hand, she knows she is going to miss the adrenaline highs we have had for the last three years. It is only human. She can replace me with someone else, but she knows me well, and getting involved with someone else could be too messy short term.

On the other hand, leaving the job is not going to be pleasant. She will quickly find another one, that is for sure, but she will need to give up a lot. I expect some delaying and resistance, but not a fight.

 

The ****ing wedding- I hate having to attend. She surely hates having me there. We are just trapped into it. She is going to be disclosing to me the full extent of her other face, the farce will become open in the air. Unless she is a sociopath, it will be a nasty experience for her. She will be smiling with her fiancee, family and friends, while I am around among the guests (she texted me ILY just yesterday!). Needless to say, I will have a much more unpleasant experience, but I have endured tougher situations in the past.

There is no way I can cancel attending without making it obvious, to my partner and to my wife. I just have to swallow the whole ****ing thing. I am not complaining at all, just pointing it out.

 

Myself- I have royally ****ed up. I have lost my mind and risked so many things. I have deceived many people, but also myself into believing that this was anything more than temporary passion. I do love this OW, but only within the boundaries of our bubble. That love would not withstand reality, it is not withstanding reality. I'm 50yo, not 30yo, I am in a different point in my life, I have accomplished many things, I dont need to prove anything to myself or to anybody. I have been successful in so many aspects in my life that I should be thankful and recognize how much lucky I have been. My situation does not entitle me to anything, it is due to hard work, but to a large extent to genetics and pure luck. Many people work hard but have not been as lucky as I have. Getting into this mess looking for the eternal youth is a shame.

I am still addicted, that I know. I have the all the symptoms. I am still toxic to others and to myself.

 

Next step-- From this weekend, I am going a week off with my family, on vacation. I will use it to put my **** together. It is about time.

 

Thanks-

Edited March 29, 2019 by ManMar

[BaileyB]

It will be interesting to see if she’s leaves her job, as you expect. Something inside me says your little plan is just far too easy...

[pepperbird]

For the love of everything decent in you, beg off the wedding. You will regret being such a coward for the rest of your days if you go. She shouldn't want you there either...if there is one lie you assist each other without guilt, it should be not attending her wedding.

 

 

I think he should go, and when they reach the point int he ceremony where they ask if anyone objects, he could pull a stunt like the one in "The Graduate".

 

Seriously, I think he should attend. I couldn't care less about how the ow feels, but it might help him see her for what she truly is.

[pepperbird]

op,

You sound a lot like my brother. He's super intelligent, driven has a great mind for business, started/owns several companies and is a VP with a large multinational corp and pulls in seven figures a year.

 

 

He's a "Type A" personality on steroids. For all he's well suited to the business world, he's dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to relationships.

 

 

He was married to his first wife, had a couple of kids. He went back to school to get his MBA while he was still working, and met his second wife. They had an affair, both divorced their spouses, and got married. He sang her praises, all about how wonderful she was, how she had been mistreated by her former husband, how she was so honest and sweet. She was the new love of his life, and so exciting to be with.

 

 

 

She went on to cheat on him left, right and centre. She even used one of their houses as a sort of "love nest" for her and some guy she was seeing on the side. It took my brother finding a message she had sent to some guy she was shagging about how terribly he had been treating her ( obviously untrue, he hadn't even been in the same country at the time), but she played the "poor widdle me" card to the hilt.

 

 

They finally got divorced, and he started therapy. He and his first wife are good friends now, and he's trying to learn why he made the choices he did.

 

of course, the fool has gone on and started another serious relationship when he's still "emotionally challenged ":rolleyes:. All I can do now is sit back and hope he doesn't screw this one up.

[Naivewomen]

Manmar,

 

Try to enjoy the vacation with your family. They need to be your priority now. Most of what you are feeling is in your head. Try your best to stop the thoughts and dwelling on the OW. Figure out how to start the letting go process. Deep down you know it's the end. Stop fighting it and walk through the pain.

[pepperbird]

Stop fighting it and walk through the pain.

 

 

There is a process referred to as "uncoupling". It's meant to Eb an active exercise that allows an individual to take control of their feelings about the end of a relationship.