Why won’t he cooperate with divorce he wanted?

[Turning point]

Again, my question isn’t how to get divorced, it’s why is he acting this way?

 

I think you're on track. You're right about the default judgement. That's not going to happen under these circumstances.

 

Why he's acting this way isn't as important as your uncertainty about it. The variety of reasons that could turn out to be really bad for you outweigh the need to know.

 

Right now your swimming in deep water without shark repellent or a life jacket. In hindsight, I wouldn't stay adrift for too long.

[Turning point]

He didn’t ever say that. He said he wanted to be friends and spend Sundays together as a family and that he would give me most of the money because he can make plenty more. And he keeps telling everyone else (his family and friends) that he’s basically just going to lay down and let me have what I want because he’s such a good guy and only cares about the well-being of the kids. I’m not saying he will actually do that, but he didn’t say he wants nothing to do with me. I’m the one who refuses to speak to him except about business of child raising and divorce. And what should I do as opposed to waiting? I can’t settle the divorce by myself and I need his discovery responses to draft a settlement agreement anyway.

 

I get it. I wouldn't want to speak to him either; roommates or not it's a devastating blow. I guess the thing I wonder about is - has he lived up to these narratives in the past?

 

When he tells family and friends about his magnanimous intentions - how well has he lived up to them in the past?

 

The waiting does suck. Continue with discovery in a way that allows you to trust but verify. If it's been 10 months since you've seen the details of a key asset - ask for the updated record.

 

If you're heart still clings to the former dream... remember who he is now rather than who you thought he was then. It may be true that he indeed wants to give you a fair settlement but, that does not mean he also feels remorse for straying.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Turning point

[Turning point]

I believe he had an affair, he has physically and emotionally neglected me, he didn’t make an effort in our marriage to do anything I needed or to share his emotional needs with me. He lied about money, he lied about how he spent his time, he told me over and over that my needs (like that he talk to me at the end of the day, that he reassure me when I was upset about something, that he help me figure out what to do about a problem at work or with the kids, that he physically interact with me) were all unreasonable expectations of him. He denies all of that even happened.

 

The only reason I “want” a divorce now is because I can’t do anything to move forward in life until it’s done. I can’t date, I can’t get a house. I don’t know why he isn’t more concerned about sorting out the logistics of the divorce since he was the one who needed it because it was the only way he could be happy. He has always identified things I need to do to make him happy and here we are not in a relationship, not hardly even in contact and I’m still having to do all the work to make things the way he wants them. Meanwhile, he says over and over that he is working to provide the financial information I need to draft the settlement agreement and instead does nothing for months. At this rate it will be the end of the year or later before the court system moves to the point that we can just get this done and I have no idea why he is okay with it just dragging on like this when I expected ending the marriage would be a priority for him.

 

It's frustrating as hell. But, you already know the answer. If it was you who had to do all of the work in the marriage, then it's still going to be you who does all of the work to end the marriage. Marriage didn't change him, cheating hasn't changed him, and divorce won't change him. That you can rely on.

 

But here's the good news! YOU can do this. It's what you've always had to do. It's not new, it's just more painful this time and you know up front there's no reward for a job well done. Apply some pressure and worry less about his motivation. Cheating is nothing more than plurality of self interest - it does not correlate with any intention to end the marriage.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Turning point

[chryssy83]

We have a court date on the 20th. Today the husband sent an iPad with my kid and it’s getting all husband’s texts. So he’s definitely spending a lot of time with the work girlfriend. Making her meals, buying her (cheap) wine, telling her goodnight. BUT he’s also trying to hook up with this other girl who is dumb as a rock. Like she’s asking him for help googling things. But they keep texting that they miss each other. And he lies to her when he’s with the work girl and says he’s with his family.

[stillafool]

Well now you know why he isn't cooperating with the divorce;he's too busy dating and shuffling women.

[Turning point]

It seems "family" is a convenient and believable excuse in his little harem. The idea that he is married might also be part of his allure with these dysfunctional chics. He's in no hurry to change what works for him.

 

The iPad thing is too funny. I'd think with all the deceit these people would be smart enough to close the blinds on their electronic boudoir.

 

My SBTX talked about her OM like he was God's own gift until she found out about the other OW. Apparently, she had a zero tolerance policy for cheating. Who knew?

Edited March 5, 2019 by Turning point

[Turning point]

you can contact him now through his email and mobile number below...

 

I'm still torn... should I take the Free Steak Knive's or the Swiffer Deluxe?

I assume I should have an answer before I call?

[chryssy83]

Kind of looks to me like he’s putting together a dating profile or something with his photos. He’s been telling the new girl how she’s amazing and then she was doing a fashion show sending him pictures of her in all the different clothes she bought today.

 

So this feels better in a sense because he didn’t leave our marriage for “the one” —he’s actually lying to the AP too and seeing at least one other person. It feels worse because how did I not realize he was such a jerk before marrying him and having two kids? He’s obviously just trying to sleep with this chick because their conversations are deep as a puddle.

[Turning point]

It feels worse because how did I not realize he was such a jerk before marrying him and having two kids?

 

How did Bernie Madoff manage to scam even seasoned professional securities brokers?

 

Without the iPad or some other window to the duplicity we don't get that aerial view from above. We don't realize on the Hollywood lot that the buildings are all fake and every last bit of action is choreographed and directed.

 

I had 5 kids! ...and I'm a pretty smart guy. I'm also the kind of person who pulls his own weight and picks up the slack - and this is perhaps where we are vulnerable. They tell us what we want to hear, manage just enough to keep us hopeful and faithful. Our character develops and theirs does not. We grow. Our experience and expectations grow with us.

 

They don't grow at all, not as a person. They are obsessed with self gratification and move on to new people still short on experience and low on expectation. They are constantly cultivating and grooming their next up and comer.

 

I can look back and see things that might have been red flags, but if I'm honest with myself that's only because of the view I now have from above it all. At the time and place all of it was plausible. Was the acting superb? Sometimes, but often it was just the script - and the understandable human belief that we are on the same page.

[vla1120]

It's amazing how dumb cheaters are with technology. When I obtained proof on our desktop that my (first) husband was cheating again, he acted all indignant that I had invaded his privacy (on our shared home computer that my daughters used for homework, no less. Nah, buddy.) He was married to an IT security specialist with over 30 years experience. Did he really think I wouldn't find the proof?

 

I don't know why he is not cooperating with the divorce, but don't blame yourself for not realizing what a cad he truly is. Shame on him, not you. I wish you could subpoena the financial information you need from him and have the judge hold him in contempt if he does not comply!

[Mysterio]

Have one more conversation and say that you need to have this Divorce for your Mental sanity.

 

Ask him to get it together. Or you will be forced to go ahead and take drastic measures and if he pays the financial price so be it. Just say you want a clean break.

[chryssy83]

Have one more conversation and say that you need to have this Divorce for your Mental sanity.

 

Ask him to get it together. Or you will be forced to go ahead and take drastic measures and if he pays the financial price so be it. Just say you want a clean break.

 

He won’t care what I need or want. And he’s hiding money from me so I’m sure keeping things clean will, in his mind, mean I don’t fully investigate that and just settle. His deadline on discovery is approaching so we will see if he produces things on time. If he doesn’t, the judge isn’t going to be very happy about that on the 20th.

[chryssy83]

 

I had 5 kids! ...and I'm a pretty smart guy. I'm also the kind of person who pulls his own weight and picks up the slack - and this is perhaps where we are vulnerable. They tell us what we want to hear, manage just enough to keep us hopeful and faithful. Our character develops and theirs does not. We grow. Our experience and expectations grow with us.

 

They don't grow at all, not as a person.

 

 

I feel like he’s actually gone backward. And sometimes I still try to look for ways I’m to blame. Did I do something that hurt him and made him feel unwanted so this is what he became? I don’t think I did, but even when I look for red flags there weren’t many until he started talking about divorce and from that point on it’s been a bit of a *****show behind the scenes. Still glad I stayed because I have my daughter but I also feel stupid for not realizing that this might be who he was under the surface.

 

How to know which is the “real him”? I don’t know. Maybe both and people are just complicated that way? He will probably deny cheating in the discovery responses.

[stillafool]

Well you have proof that he's cheated and you are definitely doing the right thing by divorcing this player. To ease your stress I would stop looking at everything he's doing with his other women. You already know he's with OW so at this point isn't it just better to look forward to the divorce. This is who this man was when you married him so just be happy you found out before wasting more years with him.

[Turning point]

Did I do something that hurt him and made him feel unwanted so this is what he became? .. but I also feel stupid for not realizing that this might be who he was under the surface.

 

If he's pathologically narcissistic (I'm speculating, based on my own experience) then in his mind you slighted him in some way but, you wouldn't have had to do anything in the real sense. Passing the BAR for example, making partner, or joining a great firm, etc. - anything that upstages him is enough to garner contempt and cause him to reject you.

 

It sounds unrealistic but, it's how their mind works. He will have married you as a way to accessorize his life. He valued what you could add to his image and standing. Love and commitment was how he branded it, but it was never real.

 

If you "did" anything it would have been using the word "No." Enforcing your boundaries is a deal breaker for these types.

 

Most hard core narcissists are hard to spot if they aren't also addicts of some kind. They get more egregious with age. Children get the dubious role of being an extension of the parent's ego. Occasionally, you can spot their contempt when someone else is in the spotlight or winning. Most are cool on the outside but raging on the inside.

 

Where he lies on the narcissism scale is unknown, but this trait would explain why he makes ZERO effort to move the divorce along. It's his passive-aggressive way of letting you know you're worthless (to him.) Your needs don't matter. It's all about him.

 

How to know which is the “real him”?

There is no "real him." He's a well studied reflection of you (or who ever he's courting at the moment.) He let you open up to him, learned what matters to you and then mimicked those traits. He told you what you wanted to hear and produced only enough to keep stringing you along until it became too inconvenient for him.

 

Chances are, before you discovered the affair and moved to divorce you were EXHAUSTED and essentially doing everything. You worked your fanny off in every arena and still didn't understand why things weren't coming together. As you exit the relationship his casual, even flippant disposition seems so out of place but, it was there and hidden the whole time.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Turning point

[chryssy83]

Reading up on narcissism initially I thought wasn’t really applicable because he’s never mean, never really yells, etc. but then last night I found a description that fit better.

 

He believes he’s a born leader. He’s better at his job than anyone who works there, even people who have done it for 30 years. Talks all the time about being a “closer” and how he can get people to do what he wants. He thinks he’s special and will be rich etc because he deserves it because of his innate ability. Just refers to it as faith. He can’t tell me what he will do to get the money he just knows he will because he has faith and he has always known he would be wealthy. The reason he is able to recruit people to work with him is because everyone wants to work with him...he’s the biggest selling point at all his interviews etc. He took a personality test to get his current job and I watched him answer the questions. I had sort of blocked it out because honestly his answers were really surprising to me and if I had read that test as a description of a person to date, I never would have been interested. And here I was married to him already. He told me he scored better on the test than anyone ever has. In the whole country for years and years. He’s more naturally suited to leadership than anyone else.

 

So either he scored the highest in history on what appeared to be a test that favored narcissistic qualities or he wished he did and I don’t know that it matters either way.

 

My therapist says he doesn’t participate in the divorce because he doesn’t think he has to. Right now he can literally do anything and everything he wants and also keep me trapped where I can’t do anything that might disappoint him. I am so excited for this court date, I want the judge to light a fire under him so I can be free.

[Turning point]

Reading up on narcissism initially I thought wasn’t really applicable because he’s never mean, never really yells, etc. but then last night I found a description that fit better.

 

He believes he’s a born leader. He’s better at his job than anyone who works there, even people who have done it for 30 years. Talks all the time about being a “closer” and how he can get people to do what he wants. He thinks he’s special and will be rich etc because he deserves it because of his innate ability. Just refers to it as faith. He can’t tell me what he will do to get the money he just knows he will because he has faith and he has always known he would be wealthy. The reason he is able to recruit people to work with him is because everyone wants to work with him...he’s the biggest selling point at all his interviews etc. He took a personality test to get his current job and I watched him answer the questions. I had sort of blocked it out because honestly his answers were really surprising to me and if I had read that test as a description of a person to date, I never would have been interested. And here I was married to him already. He told me he scored better on the test than anyone ever has. In the whole country for years and years. He’s more naturally suited to leadership than anyone else.

 

So either he scored the highest in history on what appeared to be a test that favored narcissistic qualities or he wished he did and I don’t know that it matters either way.

 

My therapist says he doesn’t participate in the divorce because he doesn’t think he has to. Right now he can literally do anything and everything he wants and also keep me trapped where I can’t do anything that might disappoint him. I am so excited for this court date, I want the judge to light a fire under him so I can be free.

 

If this is your first court appearance be prepared for a rather procedural and ineffective status review. Hopefully your attorney is someone very good at interjecting urgency from the outset so you can move it along.

 

You may be right. Narcissism has a continuum or scale. We all have it to one degree or another or we couldn't be bold enough to function in the world.

 

People who rate very high on narcissism often excel at careers like sales, politics, litigation, and leadership, including military. They lack the empathy that would often hinder many of us from being ruthlessly aggressive in our pursuits. On assessment tests these people usually garner results that describe them with words like "unyielding."

 

Your ex sounds like the covert type, without incessant braggadocio. He screws you over without ever saying a word, letting the outcome or stonewalling alone testify to you're unworthiness.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Turning point

[chryssy83]

This is the first court date that the parties have to be present for, it’s to make sure our basic needs are being met and the kids are being treated okay. See if we need a guardian ad litem (no), schedule trial and mediation, verify that the parties have exchanged basic financial info.

 

By then he will have missed our discovery deadlines and I don’t have access to all the financial info because he won’t respond to discovery. That is what I expect the judge will be annoyed by.

 

As a litigator, I know I have some narcissistic characteristics too. But I use my powers for good, not evil.

[Turning point]

Hopefully you'll get a good judge. Assume Nothing and cover all your bases, especially since you can't really predict WHY he's so uncooperative. You may see an entirely hostile side of him in the courtroom.

 

If there's something you know you need from discovery then get a Motion to Compel before the window closes. My ex wouldn't comply and her lawyer is now arguing discovery is closed and we should have subpoenaed whatever it is we wanted. Ugh!

 

I'm like 4 or 5 status conferences and 2 years in and my judge is asleep at the wheel, does nothing to move the case along. She hasn't reviewed a single document including a contempt motion on the parenting plan, contempt of the ATRO. It's an infuriating waste of time to keep showing up for a judge who's not at all prepared. Non-compliance with court orders doesn't seem to be an issue with this judge.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Turning point

[vla1120]

I'm like 4 or 5 status conferences and 2 years in and my judge is asleep at the wheel, does nothing to move the case along. She hasn't reviewed a single document including a contempt motion on the parenting plan, contempt of the ATRO. It's an infuriating waste of time to keep showing up for a judge who's not at all prepared. Non-compliance with court orders doesn't seem to be an issue with this judge.

 

That must be maddening! I should count myself lucky. My (1st) husband didn't hold anything up as long as I agreed to pay for the divorce and didn't try to fight him getting half of my pension (which is state law anyways.) I feel for you, and for Chryssy.

[chryssy83]

Update: we went to court. Trial set in 2020, ordered to mediate within 90 days. He told the judge and my lawyer he would get discovery to us this week or next.

 

He’s been calling my lawyer asking if he really has to respond to all the discovery. Yes, of course. He tried to talk to me at court but my attorney and one is my friends at the courthouse just stood in the way and all he managed to get me alone to say was “how are you?” I said “fine” and gave him a look like the conversation was over. After court he took off. He was super friendly to my attorney and the judge and the court staff. My lawyer said “I think he cares so much about what everyone thinks of him it’s just killing him you treat him with zero regard.”

 

So husband has been asking me to meet in person. I told him in a text that he owes me a real apology and that I want him to admit that I didnt deserve any of this . He responded “you didn’t deserve it” and then said could we meet to actually talk. I said about what, he said one of our kids “mostly.” And I don’t have any interest in that so after some thought I told him I think a phone call would be sufficient and he tried a few more times to meet in person but ultimately agreed we can find time for a call. I don’t know what he really wants to discuss but I felt like he was being manipulative and I hate being around him.

 

Isn’t it funny how someone you thought was so attractive and great can become so repulsive when you learn who they really are? I seriously don’t even see him the same way anymore....

[GorillaTheater]

I don’t have any interest in that so after some thought I told him I think a phone call would be sufficient and he tried a few more times to meet in person but ultimately agreed we can find time for a call.

 

Odds are you're in a one-party state with respect to recordings. If so (and I'm guessing you already know), it may be a good idea to record that call. If the conversation goes seriously south, I'd insist on future communications be conducted via text and/or email.

[chryssy83]

Odds are you're in a one-party state with respect to recordings. If so (and I'm guessing you already know), it may be a good idea to record that call. If the conversation goes seriously south, I'd insist on future communications be conducted via text and/or email.

 

This is a one-party state. The thought has occurred to me that I might want to record the call....it feels really weird to think of him as an enemy that way, but I feel like he might make some useful admissions to try to manipulate me that could help with something down the road.

[Mrs._December]

Isn’t it funny how someone you thought was so attractive and great can become so repulsive when you learn who they really are? I seriously don’t even see him the same way anymore....

It's amazing how quickly you can be repulsed by someone once you lose all respect for them.

[Turning point]

I agree it sounds like his high priority is image management. I don't think I'd meet one-on-one in person with someone who has become such an unknown quantity. Perhaps you can even make it a conference call if you're not up to taking the call alone.

 

I'm always skeptical of people who need seclusion or privacy to discuss an issue which is already a matter of public record. A recording could be helpful even if not for legal purposes.

 

If he does go off the rails, a recorded example can short-cut past any skepticism you sense from lawyers, therapists, or others you are seeking support from. I've found that it can take quite a while or some serious incident before people finally believe what I've told them all along.

 

10 days to my own next hearing. I feel like the winter ice is not the only thing desperately awaiting a spring thaw.