Stay married for external reasons or not

[AMarriedMan]

According to one school of thought, one should divorce if one's marriage has gone cold. Kids, finances or any other pragmatic concerns like that should not enter the equation. Marriage is about a love affair between two adults and all the rest is immaterial.

 

I think it's far more complicated than that. In my view, the whole purpose of marriage is family formation. It's all about providing stability for the next generation. If there is no problems such as violence, substance abuse or any such things that endanger the well-being of the children, then the parents should consider very carefully what's best for the children first and foremost. The truth is that divorce is very expensive and may introduce many kinds of instability into the lives of the children, including having to constantly be packing and unpacking and moving between the homes of their parents or being introduced to their parents' new spouses and new step siblings. I can understand divorcing even in the absence of the kind of serious problems I was referring to above if the spouses cannot stand living together and if, in their case, a little distance really helps them get along and parent better together.

 

But I suspect that if two people argue a lot while married, a divorce may not reduce their arguments at all - if the two have children together. When new partners are introduced, things may get complicated again even if the former couple had been able to find balance post divorce. I can only imagine how complicated holiday arrangements could get with a network of former and current spouses when it seems that agreeing on such things is not always clear-cut even in a nuclear family situation with extended family.

 

It's different when a divorcing couple does not have children, or at least does not have children together. That is the only case in which it is possible to make a clean break at least without totally severing the relationship between the children and one of the parents (and their side of the extended family).

 

Yet another case is when a divorcing couple has children together but all the children are adults and on their own. Under that scenario, it will not be easy but at least not the couple cannot end up fighting over custody or child support.

 

What do you think? Do you think too many people recommend divorce too easily?

[somanymistakes]

I've never seen anyone recommend divorce immediately just because the sparks are dimmer than they used to be.

 

What I do see is people trying to be SUPPORTIVE. If a marriage has gone bad for a long time, if one partner is totally miserable, but also guilty and hating themselves for wanting something more out of life, that's when people try to jump in and tell them that "you deserve better, you deserve to be happy" so that they'll stop beating themselves up.

 

It's not good for people to stay in a situation that they absolutely hate and feel completely unloved and unsupported, just out of obligation.

 

But I suspect that if two people argue a lot while married, a divorce may not reduce their arguments at all

 

This suspicion is directly contrary to the evidence afaik.

 

Yes, some people who are high conflict continue to have conflict after the divorce - but it's reduced a lot because they are no longer together all the time.

 

I'm the child of a messy divorce. Was there still conflict between my parents after the divorce? Sure. But they were no longer living in the same house, so I was no longer kept awake night after night after night by the sound of arguing downstairs. Fighting once a week is a big improvement over fighting every day.

 

Research is generally pretty clear that in a high-conflict marriage, EVERYONE is better off if they divorce.

 

If a couple is just bored with each other but not fighting, that's when the divorce is suddenly much more difficult for the children, because they can't understand what's happening and why. Kids are very self-oriented. If the parents weren't fighting and the kids were happy, they do not like change.

[Mr. Lucky]

Marriage is about a love affair between two adults and all the rest is immaterial.

 

If there is no problems such as violence, substance abuse or any such things that endanger the well-being of the children, then the parents should consider very carefully what's best for the children first and foremost.

 

Between these two extremes lie most marriages. Even the best marriage has bad days, even the worst some good ones. I tend to emphasize commitment over love as that's what holds relationships together. I may not love my wife every day but I'm committed to her every second.

 

I do agree with your point that contentious marriages with kids tend to foster messy divorces...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AMarriedMan]

I've never seen anyone recommend divorce immediately just because the sparks are dimmer than they used to be.

 

What I do see is people trying to be SUPPORTIVE. If a marriage has gone bad for a long time, if one partner is totally miserable, but also guilty and hating themselves for wanting something more out of life, that's when people try to jump in and tell them that "you deserve better, you deserve to be happy" so that they'll stop beating themselves up.

 

What I've seen is a lot of people being opposed to the idea of tolerating an unfulfilling but relatively peaceful situation for the sake of the children or any external reasons. Lots of people are of the opinion that children have some sort of an uncanny sense of when a marriage is not happy and that if you are not in a genuinely loving, happy marriage you should either fix it or get a divorce because otherwise you'll be modeling bad marriage for your kids.

 

It's not good for people to stay in a situation that they absolutely hate and feel completely unloved and unsupported, just out of obligation.

 

What does that mean? At times, I have "absolutely hated" my marriage and felt "completely unloved and unsupported". At other times, I've had other feelings. Of course, if you feel like that *all the time*, that's different. But I wasn't talking about such extreme cases.

 

When people want to be supportive, as you put it, toward people telling about their marital problems who are considering divorce, it can be very easy to tell them to divorce. Sometimes I get the feeling that those people who tell others to get a divorce are, in some ways, hoping to act out their own divorce fantasies by proxy.

 

This suspicion is directly contrary to the evidence afaik.

 

That is very, very much dependent on the couple as people and what their fights are about. If a couple fights about money, then I do not think getting a divorce, which nearly always makes at least one of the spouses much poorer than before, will do much good. That risks the child becoming a pawn in fights over child support or possible alimony. Also, because custody of the children is an issue for divorced parents, there is a risk that custodial arrangements be made part of the mess. Whoever has residential custody, usually the mother, can use the possibility of denying the other parent the possibility to meet the child as a tool for extortion. That is, in fact, fairly common. I believe that reality to be one of the biggest reasons why there is a mass exodus of men from marriage and having children that first started in Japan but is spreading to the West. Yes, you can go to court if there are disputes but that will cost you an arm and a leg. And court decisions aren't always even effectively enforced.

 

Yes, some people who are high conflict continue to have conflict after the divorce - but it's reduced a lot because they are no longer together all the time.

 

Sure, in some cases, the fighting is about issues that vanish when the parents cease to be in daily contact.

 

I'm the child of a messy divorce. Was there still conflict between my parents after the divorce? Sure. But they were no longer living in the same house, so I was no longer kept awake night after night after night by the sound of arguing downstairs. Fighting once a week is a big improvement over fighting every day.

 

Research is generally pretty clear that in a high-conflict marriage, EVERYONE is better off if they divorce.

 

Again, that depends completely on what a couple typically fights about. What you *can't* fight over is custody when you're married.

 

If a couple is just bored with each other but not fighting, that's when the divorce is suddenly much more difficult for the children, because they can't understand what's happening and why. Kids are very self-oriented. If the parents weren't fighting and the kids were happy, they do not like change.

 

Exactly, kids are very self-oriented, which is why I think one or two parents living in a quiet desperation is something most kids wouldn't know anything about. Also, if you're sexually unsatisfied in your marriage, suffering that in silence is something that your kids, especially if they're small, will never know about. In fact, they typically have a strong desire NOT to know about the sex lives of their parents. Does anyone want to think about their parents' sex life at any age?

[BaileyB]

People do suggest divorce on this site, but I’m not sure I would say that it is suggested easily or without respect for the financial and emotional consequences to the adults or children.

 

Read these boards and you will see that there are a whole lot of people clinging to very unhealthy relationships for a variety of reasons, causing untold emotional damage to themselves, their partners, and their children. It’s those situations that are difficult to read... when an individual insists that they will stay in an unhappy and unhealthy situation because they have “made a commitment and they are not going to walk away...” It is especially sad when one partner has clearly left the marriage in every way except physically (by emotionally checking out or cheating), and the other partner refuses to let them go.

 

Children should be allowed to go to school and enjoy their childhood. They should not be given the responsibility of holding together a marriage and a family.

[BaileyB]

Exactly, kids are very self-oriented, which is why I think one or two parents living in a quiet desperation is something most kids wouldn't know anything about.

 

My best friends parents divorced when we were 10. As an adult, I learned that the catalyst for the divorce was infidelity. As a child, I knew that I hated to visit that home. I knew that her father was an angry man, that her mother was miserable, and that it was not a happy marriage. All this, from a “friend” who occasionally visited the home to play.

 

Sure, some children and especially young children may not be aware of the relationship between their parents. But, I believe that children are perceptive - especially when it comes to their parents and their own safety and security. I do not believe that parents can live lives of quiet desperation or be in an unhealthy marriage and the children have absolutely no idea... I think children deserve more credit than that.

[Blind-Sided]

I have found that it's a mix of advice on this board. I think a lot of people don't fully read the posts, or miss key ideas... but on that same token... people typing don't give full detail, or can't convey real intention. (or they are the type that is truly one-sided) Because of that... it may seem that Divorce is often the suggestion. I've also seen the "Cheating" suspicion come up too often also. For me, the mix of advice isn't really why I was here. I'm a big boy, and am mentally stable, and know what needs done. But to me... this board is simply a place to vent to like minded people, and to find a little hope, and reduce stress in a bad situation.

 

 

 

 

I agree, for the most part. I think a marriage should be fixed if there are no major issues, there ARE kids, and the arguing wasn't a problem. (making it a stressful environment)

 

 

The problem is... some people are overly emotional, and don't know how to deal with them. That's where I'm at. My wife one day basically just didn't want to be married to me. We hardly argue, and it was a "Loving" environment for all... although, she says now its was "Forced" by her. I can tell you, it was not.. at least most of the time. She would come to me for hugs and kisses... and in the bedroom, I cold tell when she wasn't really in the mood, but there were a lot of times she was ready, and very willing. (now it's nothing, almost spiteful. I'm starting to wonder who gave her bad advice) Anyway... Now, you have a husband, and 2 kids that are all a little dumbfounded by the situation, and the person causing it really doesn't want to resolve things. (although, that was never who she was in the past)

 

 

In this case... what is a person to do? You can't force someone to love you, and the entire family is miserable because of the issues.

 

 

In my case, I didn't start this mess, but I have no control over it. she is the one who has to make the choice on what will ultimately happen. For me, I will love my kids, and I will move on because I have no choice. It's not an easy place to be but what can be done?

[Turning point]

It's not necessary invoke all the extremes like alcoholism, drugs, serial infidelity, or abuse to find a need for change.

 

Any situation in which people are being diminished needs to be changed. Marriages and relationships that are toxic to anyone in the family mix need to be ended. A broken parent is no good to a child, damaged children will be no good to themselves or others. Extreme selfishness, and other abusive patterns which typically fly below the radar but cause serious issues for the family members should not be allowed to continue.

 

That being said, yes there are situations where "roommates" may be more beneficial to everyone involved for certain periods of time. But the climate will often change, and then so will need to dissolve the marriage.

[What_Did_I_Do]

So in summary, if one or both spouses have no loving feelings towards one another, they should stay married in order to provide a stable environment for the children? Sounds like a business arrangement to me. Could work I guess if neither partner has any desire for intimacy. Not going to happen OP. Hence the staggering number of extra marital affairs.

 

Children thrive in loving, supportive homes whether their parents reside together or not.

 

My parents constantly fought and the house was in perpetual turmoil. Even though it was a two income household, I would have rather done with less and felt love rather than looking for cover when they went at it. They finally divorced after I moved out because they stayed together 'for the kids'. Everyone would have been much better off if they parted ways years before then.

 

Just my two cents.

[Turning point]

My wife one day basically just didn't want to be married to me. We hardly argue, and it was a "Loving" environment for all... although, she says now its was "Forced" by her. I can tell you, it was not.. at least most of the time. She would come to me for hugs and kisses... and in the bedroom, I cold tell when she wasn't really in the mood, but there were a lot of times she was ready, and very willing. Now it's nothing, almost spiteful.

 

Anyway... Now, you have a husband, and 2 kids that are all a little dumbfounded by the situation, and the person causing it really doesn't want to resolve things. (although, that was never who she was in the past)

 

 

In this case... what is a person to do? You can't force someone to love you, and the entire family is miserable because of the issues.

 

 

In my case, I didn't start this mess, but I have no control over it. she is the one who has to make the choice on what will ultimately happen. For me, I will love my kids, and I will move on because I have no choice. It's not an easy place to be but what can be done?

 

I lived through that apparent scenario as well, or so I believed at the time.

 

In hindsight, I see that she has always been an extremely selfish person and the "forcing" you refer to is actually her own personal struggle between image management (wanting the identity of marriage/family) and vain selfishness (using people, manipulation, freedom to do whatever she wants at any cost to others.) If I'm truly honest with myself she never really loved ME, she loved the IDEA. Hidden behind her pursuit of that idea and image making was a very nasty person, who seemed to have come out of nowhere.

[Blind-Sided]

I lived through that apparent scenario as well, or so I believed at the time.

 

In hindsight, I see that she has always been an extremely selfish person and the "forcing" you refer to is actually her own personal struggle between image management (wanting the identity of marriage/family) and vain selfishness (using people, manipulation, freedom to do whatever she wants at any cost to others.) If I'm truly honest with myself she never really loved ME, she loved the IDEA. Hidden behind her pursuit of that idea and image making was a very nasty person, who seemed to have come out of nowhere.

 

 

 

I've only opened up to one friend with all of this, just because I don't want all the gossip going on. (if you know what I mean)

 

 

But yes... he talked about the "Image" of what life should be, compared to what it is. While she isn't a vain person... she is being selfish in this regard since she really doesn't want to hear about any solutions. Over the last couple months, She has told me about a lot of issue, and I have offered to take care of them, with a plan, and timeline. But she is already done. (selfish)

 

The funny thing is... before I left on this biz trip, my 12 year old wanted to finally remodel her bedroom to be more teen appropriate... but I told the wife, she gets to explain why it's not going to happen. There no reason to spend the $$$, and the effort to move new stuff in, when we are probably heading out. (I told her she can't keep the house because finances won't allow it)

Edited February 14, 2019 by Blind-Sided

[somanymistakes]

Sure, in some cases, the fighting is about issues that vanish when the parents cease to be in daily contact.

 

I don't mean the issues vanish, I mean they literally can't fight every day if they aren't in contact every day.

 

No matter what their issues are.

 

If they're separated and not in contact, they can't fight.

 

Now, divorced parents usually still manage SOME level of contact. They may have to see each other to exchange the kids. They may still yell at each other through lawyers. But there's a big difference in hearing from your crazy ex on the phone once in a while (which you can hang up) and hearing her yell at you every single day for the rest of your life because you live together.

[todreaminblue]

there was this news article on about how family courts are weighed down with warring parents...one child who grew up in the family courts basically said she though when her parents got divorced that there would be less arguing between them...not the case...there was more arguing...more vicious.....

 

 

divorce happens a lot more than it used too....its increasing...personally i think it is really sad....i feel marriage should be forever......that's why before you get married....you should feel with your whole heart a permanency...a devotion a commitment to ride it out good or bad ...like the vows promise....i have heard people say.....dont worry you can always get divorced.......it shouldn't be that way ...at all..it should be ....worry before you marry.....think hard....feel harder...... and make your marriage choice ...permanent......deb

[FMW]

I think most posters (including me) advise to save the marriage if possible, but if the partners are miserable and there is no indication that is going to change, then end it.

 

If someone posts here then presumably they are looking for ideas to consider in making their own decision. So all viewpoints have merit, if only for comparison purposes.

 

Hopefully no one divorces without long and hard consideration.

[vinnyfl]

Make of this as you will. My wife is bi and has a married bi girlfriend that we share as part of our family. Have done so over a few decades now. Our girlfriend got married for financial security and to have a home of her own. Being part of my marriage gave her no spousal rights and should we move, as we did eventually, she would have nothing left since she cannot move from where she lives for personal and professional reasons.

 

We were never told anything other than they have an arrangement. Her husband supported her son from her ex husband and provided her with a home and bank account as well as his pension and job medical benefits. Her husband is OK with this wife spending weeks at a time living with us. Even when we went on vacation he would leave his wife with us and disappear until it was time to go home. A strange relationship.

 

They are married over 30 years now. As far as we can tell from knowing her husband, he needed a wife to please his very religious Jewish parents and his profession. She needed someone who would let her continue her relationship with us and provide for her financially. They both get what they want from the marriage and despite some bumps in the road, they get along well.

[somanymistakes]

divorce happens a lot more than it used too....its increasing...personally i think it is really sad....i feel marriage should be forever......that's why before you get married....you should feel with your whole heart a permanency...a devotion a commitment to ride it out good or bad ...like the vows promise....i have heard people say.....dont worry you can always get divorced.......it shouldn't be that way ...at all..it should be ....worry before you marry.....think hard....feel harder...... and make your marriage choice ...permanent......deb

 

I agree that ideally people should really think it through a lot more before making that commitment. Culture sometimes pressures people into marriage, making them feel like they're not real adults, or not really in love, if they don't Get Married And Have A Family. And it sucks for everyone involved, especially the kids, if you go through with that just because it's expected of you and not because it was really what you wanted. Eventually it will fall apart.

 

I will never marry unless I'm certain it's forever. Which probably means I'll never marry, but I'm okay with that.

 

However, the reason divorces happen more now is not because people are more thoughtless IMO, it's just because it's easier to get a divorce. People in the past made stupid decisions too, but they had a really hard time splitting up, so they were more likely to stay technically married but take lovers, or in extreme cases to murder their spouses to get rid of them.

[Mr. Lucky]

I will never marry unless I'm certain it's forever. Which probably means I'll never marry, but I'm okay with that.

 

While there are certainly marriages of expediency (pregnancy, citizenship, living quarters, etc.), don't you think most people get married hoping it's forever?

 

I hesitate to use "certain", as I get older I'm discovering there's less certainty in life than I'd previously assumed...

 

Mr. Lucky

[FMW]

I don't believe we can ever be certain about anything in life. I was certain I would be married until death. 23 years later life had shown me just how much life can surprise you.

 

We just have to make the best decisions based on the information available and not enter into anything serious (like marriage) without ample forethought.

[somanymistakes]

I don't think that no one should ever get married, but for me it's more personal than that. Stupid marriage decisions have messed up my life. I just can't.

[todreaminblue]

I don't believe we can ever be certain about anything in life. I was certain I would be married until death. 23 years later life had shown me just how much life can surprise you.

 

We just have to make the best decisions based on the information available and not enter into anything serious (like marriage) without ample forethought.

 

too true......deb

[Turning point]

I was certain I would be married until death. 23 years later life had shown me just how much life can surprise you.

 

I thought I'd be married until death as well, until I found out just how much a person can actually live through.

[oldtruck]

According to one school of thought, one should divorce if one's marriage has gone cold. Kids, finances or any other pragmatic concerns like that should not enter the equation. Marriage is about a love affair between two adults and all the rest is immaterial.

 

I think it's far more complicated than that. <snip>

 

A long winded post to seek the answer is it better to stay married

or to divorce.

 

The best senario is when they are young, no kids, simple finances

that are easy to untangle it is always best to divorce a cheater.

A black and white decision.

 

As life goes on lives get entwined very tight. Infinite shades of gray

making decisions hard. It is between what the BS and the WS and

do and want from D day that guides their decision.

 

So what is best for them is just that what is best for them. Every

couple must decide their own correct course.

Edited February 21, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote

[AMarriedMan]

People do suggest divorce on this site, but I’m not sure I would say that it is suggested easily or without respect for the financial and emotional consequences to the adults or children.

 

Sometimes they do.

 

Read these boards and you will see that there are a whole lot of people clinging to very unhealthy relationships for a variety of reasons, causing untold emotional damage to themselves, their partners, and their children. It’s those situations that are difficult to read... when an individual insists that they will stay in an unhappy and unhealthy situation because they have “made a commitment and they are not going to walk away...” It is especially sad when one partner has clearly left the marriage in every way except physically (by emotionally checking out or cheating), and the other partner refuses to let them go.

 

Children should be allowed to go to school and enjoy their childhood. They should not be given the responsibility of holding together a marriage and a family.

 

I've been reading this forum for years. Sometimes people do bluntly suggest all kinds of things, including divorce. The more thoughtful people usually consider things from a broader perspective despite ending up recommending divorce. And this forum is one of the better ones out there.

[AMarriedMan]

<snip>

My parents constantly fought and the house was in perpetual turmoil. Even though it was a two income household, I would have rather done with less and felt love rather than looking for cover when they went at it. They finally divorced after I moved out because they stayed together 'for the kids'. Everyone would have been much better off if they parted ways years before then.

 

Just my two cents.

 

That's your parents' case. It really is different for different couples. You should also remember that different people have different levels of sexual appetite.

Edited February 21, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Truncate quote

[AMarriedMan]

there was this news article on about how family courts are weighed down with warring parents...one child who grew up in the family courts basically said she though when her parents got divorced that there would be less arguing between them...not the case...there was more arguing...more vicious.....

 

This is something that gets talked about all too rarely. A married couple can have conflicts about things like money and child rearing practices and that's when divorce may not do any good whatsoever in decreasing the level of conflict between the parents. After a divorce, money will be tight for one or both spouses. If a couple has children together, it is impossible for them to have a total separation of finances for as long as at least one of the children is a minor. Child rearing practices are another thing some couples continue to fight about after divorce.

 

divorce happens a lot more than it used too....its increasing...personally i think it is really sad....i feel marriage should be forever......that's why before you get married....you should feel with your whole heart a permanency...a devotion a commitment to ride it out good or bad ...like the vows promise....i have heard people say.....dont worry you can always get divorced.......it shouldn't be that way ...at all..it should be ....worry before you marry.....think hard....feel harder...... and make your marriage choice ...permanent......deb

 

What I think is that people get married without really thinking through what it means far too often. In fact, most young people do not even begin to grasp what they should pay attention to when choosing a spouse. A lot of people enter marriages with baggage of their own or unaware of how they should judge potential spouses.