I think my girlfriend has an avoidant attachment

[Trail Blazer]

When you put everything to one side and look at why I am where I'm at, I think the biggest problem I have is the sunk cost fallacy. Someone suggested this on here months ago, and it's true. I'd invested so much in the beginning and now I've not wanted to walk away. I realize this is wrong but it's been a challenge for me. In my next relationship I'll definitely not jump in so quickly and I'll temper my expectations. In hindsight I was an idiot.

 

I had decided that when the time was right, we needed to have the chat that ends all chats. It's pointless for me to take her apart. I know that her arguments aren't sound and her behavior has been unacceptable. However, if I take her to task like a witness being cross examined in a court room, I'd only be doing so out of hurt/anger and to do that would make me a bully.

 

Well, I had received a message from V a couple of hours ago informing me that her grandfather had taken a bad turn and has been rushed to hospital. He lives upstate where V grew up, so she's packed her car, the dog and is heading up there for a few days and will stay with her brother. I started this post literally 2 minutes after V sent me a message: "Grandpa has passed away. By the time I got to the hospital it was too late."

 

So this had thrown a spanner in the works. I guess from here all I can do is lay low. I told her how sorry I was to hear that and I was here if she needs me. She just replied "thanks." I will let her reach out to me. I don't really think there's anything else appropriate that I can do from here?

Edited March 4, 2019 by Trail Blazer

[Blanco]

I've actually been in the OP's shoes in a situation so similar that reading through the thread has given me some flashbacks.

 

Here's the thing: Whether or not she has this attachment style, it is clear you two are not compatible. It isn't a case of one person being good and the other bad, or one person right and the other wrong. It's a simple incompatibility.

 

Having been where the OP was, I can understand his frustration and near-desperateness to crack the code so that his girlfriend can be who she seemed to be in the beginning. The truth is, she isn't that person. And that doesn't mean she wouldn't mesh with another person. It just means she doesn't jive with you and isn't able to give you what you obviously need from a relationship.

 

I would suspect you, despite your efforts, probably aren't giving her what she needs from a relationship (i.e. someone who is comfortable with the reality that she will be less emotionally present intermittently), so really, it's a wash. You two just aren't right for each other and are both probably hesitant to accept that, in part, because you guys rushed a lot of things such as getting the kids involved.

 

As a post-script, I'll tell you that I've been spending some time with this ex and her children in recent months after several years completely apart. She's since had a serious relationship and dated around a bit. And guess what? She's still the same, for better or worse, as she was when we were together. I enjoy her company and still feel saddened at times that it couldn't have worked out, for our sake and her children (who adore me), but that doesn't override that we still would likely be unable to give the other what they want and need from a relationship.

 

Move on and analyze her no further.

[Trail Blazer]

Yes! I say, you don’t have the right to do that to another person OP.

 

I didn’t actually realize the entire circumstance... if what Elaine says is true, that you have four children, one who is struggling, and an angry ex-wife - I’m honestly increadulous that you could say that you don’t bring baggage that is affecting the relationship OP. That shows your own insight into the situation...

 

For the record, I don't have 4 children, I have two. My ex-wife has 4 children.

[Trail Blazer]

Maybe he's avoiding ending it because they still have sex sometimes. So long as there is discussion and analysis it kind of sort of looks like still trying to understand and create a closer bond.

 

Are you intimating that I am postponing dumping her because I currently derive some value from her, that being sex? Really? If that were true, then why would I be here seeking answers to questions I wouldn't care for? The simple answer is I wouldn't, I'd just be concentrating on my MO, which is to manipulate her for my own gains

[TheFinalWord]

After a few strikeouts when dating, I personally believe there aren't such defined attachment styles. To me it all boils down to having interest or not having any interest. I used to think I had anxious attachment until I met my partner. In this relationship, I feel extremely secure because he loves me and is constantly showing me love.

 

Putting attachment labels on your partner is doing yourself a disservice. Its almost like giving an excuse for the other person to treat you very coldly. You try w/everything you have to get that person back thinking there is something wrong w/you. In the end the person is just treating you like crap. If someone loves you, they love you period, no ifs ands or buts about it. They will treat you like they love you.

 

Your girlfriend doesn’t have avoidant detachment...she’s just a single Mom who is very busy and you want more than she can offer.

 

Agree. Most of what people are calling avoidant attachment is just a women optimizing her hypergamy. Hypergamy is always a question. "Is this the best I can get?"

 

Some women never cash out of the sexual market place, believing the proverbial perfect man is right around the corner. Most women cash out at the epiphany stage and settle.

 

I don't buy too much into these attachment styles. They're based on actions taken by caregivers during infancy. Very difficult to evaluate scientifically and a lot of these attachment style vibes feel like astrology. Making things fit into our preconceived ideas about a person. It allows the person to blame their dating woes on their parents, instead of taking action themselves. A lot of shrinks may not know about it, because it's pseudo-science and not something they should be trained in.

 

Not saying there's no validity to it, but at the end of the day, grown adults without a genuine mental disorder are responsibility for their actions.

[TheFinalWord]

If we do indeed break up, I'm chalking this down to experience and preparing myself very differently for when I ever decide to throw my hat in the dating ring again. My eyes are open to just how fickle people can be and how they can so easily flip flop being how they feel about someone.

 

Very rational approach.

 

While this is not an easy thing to fix, I guarantee if you were dating two or three other women just as attractive, you would not care and this woman would be the one here typing how to keep you around.

 

Women know when they are your only option. Even if you are in a committed relationship, her knowing you could replace her quickly, will work in your favor. You might want to research

. You can't negotiate desire, or chore-play as Rollo Tomossi calls it.

 

This grandfather passing may be an opportunity for you to step up? I'm unsure if there is anything you can do to help her? She probably doesn't want to ask for help since there's been issues. But she may see a side of you that pulls through for her even during the tough times.

 

I don’t understand why you are over analyzing this so much.

 

The relationship is not going to work. End it and move on.

 

I think it's good for him to analyze this. You can learn a lot when a woman gives you feedback like this.

 

Even if it's not true, OP is giving off a vibe about his divorce and he would do well to learn to correct this vibe for future efforts. OP, if you can, you might see if you can find out what is making her think this so you can correct it for next time.

 

I have always tried to do this when relationship end. Analyze what I can so I don't repeat the same mistakes. Most women ghost, so when you get one that will give you genuine feedback, it's helpful to drop the ego and get what you can out of it.

Edited March 4, 2019 by TheFinalWord

[littleblackheart]

When you put everything to one side and look at why I am where I'm at, I think the biggest problem I have is the sunk cost fallacy

That's probably true for you both, and also quite a common thing. It's gone too far too fast.

 

if I take her to task like a witness being cross examined in a court room, I'd only be doing so out of hurt/anger and to do that would make me a bully.

 

So glad you could see that, OP. It's not so much about her than how you react to the current dynamic in your relationship.

 

I don't really think there's anything else appropriate that I can do from here?

 

Probably not. If you already know the relationship has run its course, you can be there for as a friend would, I guess?

 

 

@TheFinalWord

I think it's good for him to analyze this. You can learn a lot when a woman gives you feedback like this.

 

Analysing the situation and the dynamic between the 2 of them is good; analysing her, however, is a bit pointless.

 

They've not set out to hurt each other deliberately, neither of them had bad intentions towards each other.

Edited March 4, 2019 by littleblackheart

[elaine567]

While this is not an easy thing to fix, I guarantee if you were dating two or three other women just as attractive, you would not care and this woman would be the one here typing how to keep you around.

 

Yes, IF.

Trouble is the OP feels this women is well above what he can realistically attract, he already made a thread about that, so dating 2-3 other similarly attractive women is not an option for him and after 11 months of dating exclusively it would be rather disingenuous to be also dating 2-3 other women...

Surely he has enough chaos and baggage in his life without trying to juggle a few extra women too...

[Trail Blazer]

Yes, IF.

Trouble is the OP feels this women is well above what he can realistically attract, he already made a thread about that, so dating 2-3 other similarly attractive women is not an option for him and after 11 months of dating exclusively it would be rather disingenuous to be also dating 2-3 other women...

Surely he has enough chaos and baggage in his life without trying to juggle a few extra women too...

I've only learned recently of the strike rate men statistically get on Tinder. While at the time I thought, "damn, most of these girls are just scrolling right past me" I've recently come to learn that statistically speaking, I actually did very well. Not only that, but at the time I was on Tinder, I hadn't made any effort creating a profile or taking a whole bunch of selfies. I just had two average pics which didn't highlight the best of me.

 

I agree with what this man has said, but for me it will only apply when I have other things in my life under control. We are an exclusive couple and that will remain until the day we're no longer together. When I get back in the dating ring, I will not be so trusting and I'll be very wary of how people operate. I was a complete noob entering this relationship and I landed a hot girl at the worst time I could which turned me into a hot mess.

 

I know that I need to spend time by myself, time to define who I am as a person and where I want to be in the future. Focusing on that wilk take the focus off women and will help me choose wiser as my choices will be more targeted. It won't be so much about "she's hot" as it will be about "she'd fit well in my life." Then, find two or three more just the same and when they go cold and fickle, I'll be IDGAF!

[Trail Blazer]

Very rational approach.

 

While this is not an easy thing to fix, I guarantee if you were dating two or three other women just as attractive, you would not care and this woman would be the one here typing how to keep you around.

 

Women know when they are your only option. Even if you are in a committed relationship, her knowing you could replace her quickly, will work in your favor. You might want to research

. You can't negotiate desire, or chore-play as Rollo Tomossi calls it.

 

This grandfather passing may be an opportunity for you to step up? I'm unsure if there is anything you can do to help her? She probably doesn't want to ask for help since there's been issues. But she may see a side of you that pulls through for her even during the tough times.

I'm only just starting to learn about these concepts. I used to think this red pill movement was nothing more than a bunch of angry incels spewing misogyny and toxic ideology about women. I now realize that is only a very small part of it, and the wider concepts espoused are eye opening and scarily accurate.

 

I was way too trusting in this relationship. The feedback I was getting for the relationship was that she'd found her soulmate. I seemed to be everything she wanted. I was providing her security, support and I was a decent male role model for her then 5 year old son.

 

I was so painfully ignorant of the flippancy and fickleness in the relationship game. I was as equally ignorant to just how women work and how SMV dictates so much. I had been married for 13 years to a woman who viewed me as the catch. I learned nothing from her with regards to these concepts.

 

It's very different when the shoe is on the other foot, now that I'm viewing my girlfriend as the catch. Undoubtedly my behavior was different and, while I may not have necessarily exuded desperation as such, potentially putting her on a pedestal and letting her know that she was my one and only worked completely against me.

[Wallysbears]

There have been quite significant red flags in this relationship for months now. You two are relatively newly dating. (I consider anything less than a year a 'new' relationship) It shouldn't be this hard.

 

If you can't get through 4 seasons as a couple without major issues, then you likely won't get through 4, 10, 40 years together.

[Blanco]

I don't think the concepts TheFinalWord touches on are without merit, but again, I really don't think they are the crux of the issue here. You two simply want and expect different things in a relationship. Neither is necessarily right or wrong. Neither is without blame, and that doesn't mean that either side is bad or had unsavory intentions going into this relationship.

 

Analyzing why things don't work is fine, and I certainly have done my share of it. The trick is to understand that analyzing something sometimes means you're going to be left with making a hard decision you don't want to make.

[Trail Blazer]

There have been quite significant red flags in this relationship for months now. You two are relatively newly dating. (I consider anything less than a year a 'new' relationship) It shouldn't be this hard.

 

If you can't get through 4 seasons as a couple without major issues, then you likely won't get through 4, 10, 40 years together.

Agreed. I know what I'd be thinking if I were reading simular stuff fron someone else. But we both jumped in too deep too early and realizing we both may not be what the other one needs is hard.

 

As friends we are actually really good. I genuinely believe she cares about me as a person and a friend. She's just going through her own battles. I think as compatible lovers, however, it just will not work.

[Wallysbears]

Oh, I don't doubt whatsoever that you care for each other. It truly just seems that in order to be compatible you both want different things and right now it just isn't 'meshing'

[Trail Blazer]

I don't think the concepts TheFinalWord touches on are without merit, but again, I really don't think they are the crux of the issue here. You two simply want and expect different things in a relationship. Neither is necessarily right or wrong. Neither is without blame, and that doesn't mean that either side is bad or had unsavory intentions going into this relationship.

 

Analyzing why things don't work is fine, and I certainly have done my share of it. The trick is to understand that analyzing something sometimes means you're going to be left with making a hard decision you don't want to make.

The area I struggle with is that her behavior wasn't consistent after a period of time. People have tried to convince me that she became exhausted trying to keep up with the relationship because that was what she said 4-5 months when it all started to die down. For that period of time we'd be doing it like rabbits, she'd invite me over and I wouldn't initiate anything, she'd be literally all over me. Then it all died down very quickly and the excuses rolled out.

 

Don't tell me that women don't know what they're doing in the beginning when they go like rabbits. They're sucking us men in. Then what? After a period of time it all just dies down? I understand that intensity to that degree cannot be maintained forever, but it shouldn't fall off a cliff either.

 

It's hard to not feel like I was somehow duped. It's hard to not feel as though the onus is on the person who changes to justify their flippancy. Why shouldn't I feel like it's wrong that someone behaved in a certain way to attract and retain me, when the way they behaved "wasn't the real person"?

 

Women here can justify all they like how she's a "busy single mom" and all that until the cows come home. Why wasn't that a problem for the first 6-7 months? How about, if you're a busy single mom, or whatever other label, you behave accordingly from the beginning? You don't have to answer that, it's rhetorical.

 

The reality is women use their sexuality to attract and retain men. When their sexuality no longer serves a purpose, they then focus on other areas of their lives they view as more important. The fact that the guy is left scratching his head with one hand and having to beat his meat with the other because his sex life has dropped so much is of little importance to these women.

 

So yeah, dread game and these sort of manipulative tactics work in theory because, if you forever keep a woman in a state where her greatest asset is always needed, i.e. she's always feeling like she needs to retain you, then you can exploit her for that to get what most men want, which is sex.

 

It's a sad world when manipulation is much more effective than honesty. I was pure and honest in my intentions and now I'm getting somewhat burnt. How can I ever trust another woman to not display the same level of flippancy? Date down? No thanks! The reality is, I can't. I will always be waiting for her to flip and turn into "the person that she really is."

[some_username1]

I totally agree that the women here are making excuses for her and it is natural to wonder why her behaviour changed on a six pence....but saying that I think 'duped' is a bit strong and you're in danger of going too far down the red pill hole here.

 

I struggle to see how reeling you in for a few months then shutting sex down completely would help her achieve an end goal of retaining a useful man who is happy not having sex. She must have known that lack of sex would cause a problem. The only caveat is that maybe you did convey to her that she was hotter than anything else you felt you could get and she felt confident that she could take sex off the table and you would still provide companionship....but I dunno because IIRC from what you have said about her general behaviour it sounds like she wasn't generally good company regardless of the sex. In the run up to Christmas it sounded like she was trying to avoid having to actually interact with you as much as she could. Not much of a relationship.

 

More than likely there was a critical point where she lost her attraction to you and that sort of thing works much differently in women than in men. If a woman at any point sees you as less of a man than the ideal of you that she has built up in her head (and it seems that this can be caused by something innocuous and trivial as far as us men are concerned) then bang- it's gone and it usually ain't coming back. Once they are turned off in this way then being mentally stimulated enough to have sex with such a guy turns into the equivalent of climbing a mountain. I understand that it is very difficult for a woman to have sex with a man who turns her off. It isn't like men who can have sex just for the sake of having it.

 

The aspect where you have a right to feel aggrieved, imo, is her inability to be open about the way she was feeling. It might be that she never saw that there was a problem the whole time but if her behaviour is as '180' as you say then I struggle to believe that she has just been her normal self all this time and her declining interest in sex was just a 'return to the mean'. The bereavement obviously complicated things but it sounds like her behaviour had changed before then.

Edited March 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[greymatter]

“The reality is women use their sexuality to attract and retain men. When their sexuality no longer serves a purpose, they then focus on other areas of their lives they view as more important. The fact that the guy is left scratching his head with one hand and having to beat his meat with the other because his sex life has dropped so much is of little importance to these women. “

 

I don’t think it will serve you well to generalize about all women in this way.

It doesn’t apply to many of us and may cause you to approach everyone with cynicism and distrust, not attractive qualities.

 

I’m at the one year point with my partner and we are both still very sexually into each other and nothing has slowed down in that regard. We can’t keep our hands off of each other. The sexual issues you’ve run into are specific to your partner and you, but not all women. Your stated view above about sexuality and women is kind of sad and angry but hopefully is just a temporary reflection of your frustration with your current relationship.

[Blanco]

Just end it. I get where you're coming from, but your failing marriage, subsequent divorce, and now drama-filled relationship have all combined to warp your view of women and relationships.

 

I say this as a guy who's been through something similar. You're flirting going down a path that's just going to leave you bitter and cynical.

 

She has her part in this not working out, yet I doubt she intentionally set out to "dupe" you by banging out your brains for several months and then strategically shutting off the tap.

 

It's not exactly a secret that sane people try to put their best foot forward during the initial weeks and months of a relationship. As time passes and comfort grows, it's normal for some of that veneer to go away. Sometimes the change is minimal and other times, you're left with a completely different person.

 

I still don't think she's necessarily wrong. She's just wrong for you and what you clearly need from a partner.

 

Break up and really take some time to get yourself together so you are better prepared for your next relationship, which honestly should probably not be for a while.

Edited March 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[elaine567]

I think you saw sex as the indication things were going wrong but she probably saw things were going wrong long before the sex fell off.

Things going wrong for her was why the sex lessened, it was a symptom of the rot, not the rot itself.

 

I do not believe most women are out to trap men by providing great sex then shutting it down.

I believe women go into relationships with high hopes but women usually need more than just sex and when it becomes obvious that sex is about all he is capable of giving, it all becomes a bit of a let down.

She is often seeking deeper connection, he is getting sex so he tends to not be so focused on connection. There may also be a mismatch over the type of sex enjoyed too.

All in all, there is a disconnect and with neither getting their needs fully met, it falls apart, or lurches into habit, with neither that enthralled by the relationship.

[elaine567]

Just end it. I get where you're coming from, but your failing marriage, subsequent divorce, and now drama-filled relationship have all combined to warp your view of women and relationships.

 

I say this as a guy who's been through something similar. You're flirting going down a path that's just going to leave you bitter and cynical.

 

Agreed and while you are at it TB try to sort out your relationship with your ex wife.

No women wants to be caught up in the middle of warring ex spouses.

[Highndry]

The reason women get so many more "strikes" on dating apps such as Tinder, etc., is because the majority of men carpet bomb the entire site as it's the best way to increase their odds.

 

Women, by and large, don't do this. They are much more selective, and sit back and wait for the inevitable carpet bombing to pick and choose. This leads to a very unbalanced situation.

[Lotsgoingon]

Dude, your gross and just off-based views about women and sex ... those are the heart of your troubles ... not attachment, lack of attachment or anything else ...

 

Clearly, you have not had in depth conversations with women about the ways they can be "manipulated" by men ... Go have some real conversations with women ... get a range of perspectives ... then come back here and update your views.

 

I have never had a woman "rope me in" with sex ... and I'm talking about women with a range of personalities and sex drives and demographic backgrounds ... Yes, I think there were women who had sex with me hoping that a relationship would develop.

 

I have a ton of male friends and acquaintances ... I don't think any of them ever thought women (other than rank-gold-digger psychopaths ... and usually these folks target super rich and clueless guys) ... have used sex to further a relationship--whatever that even means.

 

But dude, women and men have the right to change their minds .. And lesson for you ... You need to improve your dating technique and discernment. You're clearly attracted to women who aren't good for you.

 

BTW: in your scenario of women-men interacting, you should know that what you're basically saying is that guys are dumb and stupid and clueless and unable to see past superficiality ... unable to figure out who's good for them and who's not.

 

You're really guys here. Seriously, go have to talks with women and men.

[TheFinalWord]

I'm only just starting to learn about these concepts. I used to think this red pill movement was nothing more than a bunch of angry incels spewing misogyny and toxic ideology about women. I now realize that is only a very small part of it, and the wider concepts espoused are eye opening and scarily accurate..

 

No worries friend. We've all been there. Most men find the red pill because they screw up and can't figure out what they did wrong. Based on the narrative pushed by our gynocentric culture, we did everything right: a great guy, treats her with respect, puts her on a pedestal, and provides her access to his resources (setting themselves up for transactional rather than validational sex). The central tenant of red pill is men must become their own mental point of origin. Never the woman. Red pill does attract misogyny but no more than any other form of relationship philosophy. I prefer to think of it as "men trading notes." If you want a good start, red pill 101 YouTube channel with Rollo Tomossi is my recommendation. Rollo is the author of the Rational Male. You can find free versions of his book online. Great starter book on the red pill.

 

[Wallysbears]

Please don't take serious relationship dating advice from a man who is doing a blog/vlog dressed like, speaking like and in rooms like either of these clowns in that video. That's like going to the toothless dentist.

[Tamfana]

Are you intimating that I am postponing dumping her because I currently derive some value from her, that being sex? Really? ...

There are plenty of people who do that, which is why I said "maybe," because I was guessing based on some common habits in the ethos.

 

It’s good that you’re waiting until after her grandfather’s funeral. She lost her grandma and her grandpa in the span of a few months, just heartbreaking.