Down the rabbit hole

[darkbloom]

Hi friends,

 

I am looking for the strength to go NC with my MM. We have always been friends before- we started our A before he got married. After his wedding, I cut all contact with him for over a year. He would reach out and I wouldn’t respond. After the death of my father, I reached out to him just to see how he was doing. We resumed our EA although I refuse to meet in person because I won’t go back to being in a physical affair while he’s married. Thing have limped along ever since. He says he loves me and that if I say we can be together he will do it. Unlike a lot of the MM on here, he’s never lied to me about his wife. They have a great relationship and there are no major issues other than that he’s in love with me. I can’t tell him that I want to be with him because I don’t think I can handle the pressure if he ends his M for me. He also wants marriage and kids which I do not want and can’t provide him. He says he will give up on those dreams if we can be together. I think that’s too much pressure on a new relationship. He’s been in IC for the last six months to deal with his issues and to sort himself out. We’ve both ended it a few times but it’s never stuck. After a few weeks he breaks down and contacts me.

 

I know I deserve better but I feel I’ve relied on him so much that it’s going to be devastating to let him go.

 

I don’t want to hurt anyone anymore either. This affair has damaged my self esteem in ways I didn’t think posible. Nothing about an affair is good or exciting and the secrecy makes me anxious. Talking to him makes me feel better but than the anxiety of keeping this a secret kicks in and it’s a vicious circle I’m trying to get out of.

[Aloha123]

Well, the good news is that you managed to do it before for a decent amount of time. Try to cut your losses and pick up where you left off.

 

Easier said than done, i know.

[Mrs._December]

Let's peel away all the sugary layers and look at this for what it IS, not what you think it is.

 

You've got a man who lied to his wife during their engagement and on their wedding day, proclaiming his love for her and only her in front of friends, family and God - while he's been secretly screwing around with you and proclaiming his love to you. That's a real standup fellow, that one.

 

While lying to his new wife's face every single day and leading her down the garden path letting her think they're going to grow old together, the lying sneak continues to show his true colors proclaiming his undying love for you and claiming that he'd dump his new bride in a New York minute if you'd just say the word. How EASY it is to tell that lie when you're not made to actually BACK IT UP.

 

Surely you don't think he's the first lying cheating married man to make that claim? If you had any idea how may OWs before you have uttered the same thing - "I don't want to be responsible for him leaving his wife" as though he'd actually DO it, I'd be rich. Most of them make that claim and just about NONE of them actually follow through with it. He's no different than any of the others before him. And sadly, just like all the other OWs before you, you fervently believe that he's not like all the others and would actually fulfill his promise.

 

I think you need to face the fact that he's just like all the other married men. Husband of the Year isn't going anywhere. If he didn't' want to marry this woman then he wouldn't have married her. But he's despicable for his sleazy behavior and what he's doing to that innocent woman who thinks she's a happy newlywed. Not only has this lying creep hit his lowest point in life, he's now digging a tunnel UNDER it.

 

THAT'S who you're crying over and wringing your hands over and losing sleep over. Someone who has no problem lying to the world and God on his wedding day, and someone sending you sneaky messages about how he'd dump her in a heartbeat even though their marriage is really good.

 

Ask yourself this question, Darkbloom. Would YOU want to be married to man who is so easily capable of making a mockery of your engagement, your wedding day, your honeymoon, and your marriage? Would you want to be ignorantly blissful thinking you have everything you want in life while unknowingly, your snake of a husband is in the next room proclaiming his love for some other woman and telling her how he'd dump your ass tomorrow if she told him to?

 

Would you want to be with someone capable of treating their wife like that? Because THAT'S who he is. He's not some fairy tale prince whose stuck in a bad place and needs your love to magically make him whole again. He's a lying, selfish sneak who can't appreciate what he's got and lack character, integrity, and honor.

 

That's who he is, Darkbloom.

[anika99]

How do you rely on him when you don't even see him? I get that it's nice to have someone to talk to but if that's all you're doing with him your life is far from dependent on him. And I think he is mostly all talk. I doubt that he would really leave his wife. He says that now but when push comes to shove he'd probably find excuses to stall. This relationship is a waste of your time and emotions.

[Artdeco]

That’s not your xH, though, right? I remember you married (or cohabitated with) a former MM, and it didn’t work out. If it’s a different one, how long has he been married, and when did it change from friendship to EA/A?

[Abetterme]

@darkbloom - I hope you start NC as soon as possible and work towards healing yourself for a healthy relationship. I began an EA with my xMM several months before his wedding which eventually moved to a full blown A shortly after they were married. Beyond the shame of what I’ve done to my H and M I struggle greatly with what I’ve done to his poor BS.

 

These are not good men and removing yourself from it for longer you will see your part in harming her and yourself more clearly. It is clear it’s been painful for you as was the vicious cycle I was in. Get strong, you deserve better!

 

All the best to you.

[Turning point]

I don't think NC is your solution, it's more like a procedural detail. Yes, NC is a must do but, what you really need to do is change your perception of him. See the real picture, and understand what is really going on right in front of you.

 

Have you ever turned on the television and had sound but no picture? This is how you and every OW talks about their MM. "..save but one small tweak of the rabbit ears and we could be picture perfect..."

 

Change the channel.

[darkbloom]

Thank you for the replies.

 

@artdeco that is definitely not me, never been married nor lived with AP. I think you’re thinking of a different person.

 

 

What my AP is doing IS sh*tty to his wife. He’s not behaving with integrity and I don’t think he is able to make the hard decisions he needs to make to end the relationship with his wife. I also wouldn’t trust him to be able to make those hard decisions if we ever ended up in a relationship together.

 

The hardest part in affairs is it is easy to paint the MM in broad brushstrokes saying that he is a horrible person. He’s not a horrible person even if his choices in regards to me and his wife are. I am not defending him in any way, I just want to point out that making bad decisions doesn’t always make us inherently bad people. FWIW, I am single and unmarried and have never cheated or monkey branched from relationship to relationship. I find being single easier and I have a tough time connecting with men as they usually want to sleep with me but not necessarily date me. (This is ironic, I know) As I stated in the first post, MM has agonized over this and is seeking therapy and help for this. He is happy with his wife but he thinks he could be happier with me. His only reason for ending his marriage would be me and I don’t think that’s a good enough reason. There are no other major issues in their marriage to my knowledge but he has been honest about that from the start. I know that could be a big lie however, I think MM has usually dated intellectually below his level. I think it caught him off guard to meet someone like me and we were casual friends for a few years with NO flirting, inappropriateness, etc. We ended up being in the same city for work and that’s where things shifted. It by no means excuses the behavior however, the actual PA only lasted less than 3 months until he got married.

 

I’ve read up on limmerence but I’m not sure limmerence lasts as long as this has been going on. I will have to gag myself and make the puking motion if I claim that we are soul mates and we are the only two that understand each other. I don’t believe in soul mates and I think those lines are trite and over used on these pages. I think we get along great and we have a good understanding of each other but I think timing is everything and we missed the boat on that.

 

Again, what we are doing is wrong. He knows it and I know it. We’ve tried to move it to be just friends which is impossible and naive since you can’t just be friends with someone you are in love with.

 

I haven’t responded to his texts over the last few days. I’m just not emotionally able to draw the energy to. Next step is to block him (which I did before). I’ve also successfully avoided all social situations where we would end up in the same place for almost a year now. We have a lot of mutual friends and I’ve had to be strategic on that without drawing any suspicion.

 

I appreciate the support through this journey.

[mark clemson]

I’ve read up on limmerence but I’m not sure limmerence lasts as long as this has been going on. I will have to gag myself and make the puking motion if I claim that we are soul mates and we are the only two that understand each other. I don’t believe in soul mates and I think those lines are trite and over used on these pages. I think we get along great and we have a good understanding of each other but I think timing is everything and we missed the boat on that.

 

Just a point to note - the reason people say things like that is because limerence screws with your brain. People start coming up with fairly ridiculous stuff (soul mates, star crossed lovers, past lives, kizmet, etc etc) to try to understand what they're experiencing. It's all hooey (IMO) but people are experiencing something that is rare and special (limerence), so they try to figure out how to explain it and start coming up with this stuff.

 

"It's destiny" sounds a lot more romantic than "I'm addicted to another person". But from what I understand, the latter is a lot more accurate in neuroscientific terms.

Edited March 19, 2019 by mark clemson

[darkbloom]

@ markclemons I do think that being addicted to another person is more accurate than soul mates or any or that other stuff. I don’t believe the mushy crap and you are absolutely right to call it Hooey. I don’t believe in destiny and I think soul mates are bullish-t. MM has a very similar take on it. I think we are addicted to each other and calling it love. Or maybe it is love and we are both too cowardly to follow through. Although many posters will say I’m lying to myself but I actually want MM to be happy. Even if that means staying with his wife. I didn’t pressure him I just told him he needed to make a decision. I WAS AT THE WEDDING and I did not object or cause any disturbance at the wedding. I ended it the day of his wedding and followed through with it for a year. In a moment of weakness I reached out and I am suffering the consequences for not holding that bottom line. I did this to myself and I’m the only one that can get through it. I am just as much to blame as MM in this situation.

[mark clemson]

Well, some folks view romantic attachment/limerence as love (a state); others view love as something you actively do long term (an action). I think the viewpoint/definition choice is a personal thing: "If love is not madness, it's not love" is a proverb - think that's limerence they're talking about, not LTR.

 

But anyhow, don't want to derail the thread.

 

Must have been tough being at the wedding. Fate of an AP - lots of things are tough.

 

Think you should try to stick to the NC; hope it goes well and is doable! Think most folks around here support you in that.

[darkbloom]

@mark clemson I think a lot of people use love and limmerence as an excuse to justify their sh*tty behavior. I’m in the love is an action camp, however, you can’t help if you have feelings for someone. For MM, absence made the heart grow fonder. After a whole year he said his longing was worse and he was having more trouble sleeping than normal. He would stay up at night and just think about us. MM has his fair share of issues but I can at least say he doesn’t try to sell me on the typical MM lines about his wife being horrible and sexless etc.

 

The wedding was rough. I was at the rehearsal dinner (yikes) and the vows were extremely hard to watch. I had to sit on my hands and keep my sunglasses on. I would encourage anyone to not attend if they can help it.

[Turning point]

Although many posters will say I’m lying to myself but I actually want MM to be happy. Even if that means staying with his wife.

 

This places your center so far outside of yourself that it couldn't possibly be love. This kind of self-sacrifice is not an act of love.

[pepperbird]

What difference does it make if he is an otherwise "good person"? How is that even relevant?

[Abetterme]

What difference does it make if he is an otherwise "good person"? How is that even relevant?

 

I agree with pepperbird. I’m sorry, but it feels like excuses are being made because you’re still in the A. My xMM never told me lies about his marriage either, but someone who can cheat on their spouse before marriage and during the entire thing (if he was up thinking about you all night, still not faithful) and actually have their AP at their wedding is seriously flawed.

 

My xH cheated on me in that same manner. Thankfully I found out before we had children or much of a vested asset life so I could get out of it. I don’t think I ever dealt with it properly and ended up making the horrible choice of getting involved with my xAP.

 

I will be very proud when I am a year out of contact from xAP. I know I will continue gaining perspective on the situation. I hope you gain confidence from

Your ability to have done so before and can move on from this. I just don’t understand how someone can get married when they are in love with someone else. My xH went on to cheat many times over....there is something seriously wrong here and I think it is concerning that you don’t see it. I think it’s who there are and despite positive things I saw with xAP, I have no doubt he will continue to cheat on his BS. Just not with me thank god!

 

We can choose to be better moving forward.

[darkbloom]

Thank you for your honest replies. I am trying to grow and I (hope) I’m not making excuses for MM or myself. As someone who has been cheated on and currently being the OW I have both perspectives on this. If you would have asked me 5 years ago if I thought cheating was bad and that cheaters are horrible people I would have said yes. I only ever saw things as black or white. Age and time had given me perspective on things.

 

There is A LOT of infidelity happening in the world (not just on these boards) and I think it’s intetesting to open up conversation for the why behind it.

 

If MM were all horrible people we wouldn’t have anything to do with them. They have good qualities and enough good qualities that their wives married them. Again for the people in the back, I’m not excusing their lying or their actions. But I think a lot of us end up over our heads in something that wasn’t intentional. We make bad choices and justify those bad choices because we are in over our heads. In the case of my MM, I think he doesn’t want to hurt anyone (either wife or me) but his inaction is an action. And it’s causing pain and hurt on both sides.

 

 

I havent reached out or responded to him. I’m still emotionally on 0. I don’t know how I ended up here but I’m trying to get off this roller coaster.

[Abetterme]

@darkbloom - I really relate to much of what you said having both perspectives on cheating as well. I didn’t mean to be harsh, but I found myself doing a lot of the same justification and wish I’d gotten out of that sooner as it would have helped me not get back into my A. We had a 3 month period of NC last spring and I went up and down the same emotional roller coaster. Telling myself he couldn’t be bad or have bad intentions, or I would have never fallen for him. When he popped back up I went right back to the A. I never want that toxic relationship again. Like you, Id never felt such crippling insecurity or guilt in my life. All for someone who supposedly “loved me”.

 

The truth was it was my own flaws, not really much to do with him other than he was equally flawed and in the same place at the same time. As important as it is for me to get to the core of my “whys”, it is for me to shine a light on his shortcomings.

 

I can say several months out of my A I am feeling much clearer and see is both for what we were. Wishing you peace, just take it a day at a time. It will get better.

[mark clemson]

Darkbloom, I'll just add that I feel my NC is going quite well. I believe that the reason is that it's TOTAL. I simply have nothing to do with my former AP anymore. It was hard at first, but it was also inevitable and now that I'm over the initial hump it's pretty good. I even still go to her former place of work for my job regularly and it's not too triggering.

 

Do thoughts of her and the ups and downs/highs and lows still cross my mind occasionally? Yes. Am I pining and in emotional distress over the loss? NO.

[Starswillshine]

Can you find a new hobby or something that keeps you super busy that you do not have time to worry about him or desire to contact him?

[darkbloom]

@matk Clemson I couldn’t find your story anywhere but I wanted to ask a few more questions. Are you married? How long were you with AP? How long have you been NC? Did you love your AP? I think you provide very insightful answers and I wanted to know more about how you got here.

 

 

As for hobbies, I do have a ton. Work also keeps me busy and I travel non-stop. I think I struggle with losing the best friend part of it not so much the sex/desire part. I’m at the age where a lot of my friends are self centered and focused on their own relationships. They’re still good friends but their own lives take up a ton of time and energy and we aren’t able to do as much as we were before. My best female friend keeps me nicely grounded in reality. (She despises MM and has taken my phone on a number of occasions to protect me from me.) MM and I travel in the same social circles, so it’s hard to keep what’s happening in his life completely from reaching me. It’s also hard to stop the “what if things were different” scenarios out of my head. They are not realistic and will never amount to real life, but my mind drifts sometimes.

 

The breakup of my last relationship before MM took me 2 years to get over. And it was tough but I stuck to NC. I posted here (obsessively so) and it helped a lot. I’ve been lurking for awhile on the OW boards reading old stories to brace myself for the inevitable outcome of this type of relationship. My therapist says I subconsciously picked MM because I know he can’t hurt me. He’s already in a relationship with someone else so I know what I’m getting and it’s not a surprise. I think MM fills the lonely part of me-the one that no one else can see. I have to deal with that lonely part when I let MM go and that scares me.

[Turning point]

..MM fills the lonely part of me-the one that no one else can see. I have to deal with that lonely part when I let MM go and that scares me.

 

You mention this as if it's some remote possibility - when in reality it is the root cause of all your pain and you simply won't face it.

 

Loneliness is not being alone - it's the belief that we alone are not good enough. This is the driving force that keeps us stuck. We shift the responsibility we have to love ourselves onto someone else and this is what binds us to the affair.

 

You've dropped an anchor of emotional dependency and MM is dragging you around his harbor by the long chain. You get out of this by starting the engines, reporting to the bridge, and piloting your own ship.

 

People constantly refer to this as a "roller coaster" while failing to fully inform themselves of the analogy. The ride on even a super-coaster lasts only 3 minutes. On any given day of operation you can choose to step off this ride over 200 times as it returns over and over to the same loading dock.

 

What will you choose to do in the next 3 minutes?

[mark clemson]

Thanks, Darkbloom - I would point out that there's a LOT of insight on these boards, from a lot of different people. I never started my own thread, in part because by the time I came here I was already in NC.

 

Think it's true there are important differences between my situation and yours. So, I may have had an easier situation to recover from in some ways. I am married (about 22 years together, about 11 of them married).

 

My story. It was a dark and stormy night...

 

Anyhow, we met in her place of work (where I go regularly for my own job). There are women there that I had gotten into the habit of flirting with. Nothing had ever turned even remotely into a big deal emotionally until she was hired, just fun, so honestly falling for her was not at all something I expected.

 

I thought she was very attractive, esp. her hair, face, and voice. But most significant of all was her personality and "flirting style". And so we flirted together a lot and gradually became emotionally attached. I think we both realized in the back of our minds that it had the potential to blow up our personal lives (and possibly her work life). At any rate, we continued flirting and ended up in full-blown limerence for each other. So I felt love in the sense of limerence, which was extremely intense. This went on for about a year.

 

When she got hired for a new job, she rapidly turned pretty mean. I started responding similarly after a while (not my best moment). So my memories of her are somewhat tinged with resentment. I forgave her (and she me, I think) and we ended it with a last email exchange. We had never gone PA and never took it outside of her place of work (since we saw each other there frequently). I think that helped a lot too - there was no history or expectation that we would meet up once she left.

 

The whole thing lasted about a year and a half. I've only been NC since first week of January, so not long, but I do believe the complete cutoff aspect helps. I know she's somewhere within 15 - 20 miles of me on any given day, and I do have an email, but it doesn't matter. There's nothing "to continue" in a way. And I suspect we both feel that way.

 

Processing my feelings led me to LS. I did internet searches on emotional affairs to help me come to grips with residual limerence and eventually that led me to a post here.

[mark clemson]

@Darkbloom - Just to add, I think that if I saw her in person regularly, or even sporadically, it would be MUCH harder for me (emotionally). I know it would just re-trigger my feelings.

[darkbloom]

@mark Clemson thank you for your story! I would say it’s a good thing you don’t see her everyday. It should help your healing go faster. I’m really good at giving advice but not necessarily taking it.

 

I was able to go NC for a whole year, I can do it again. I’ve also been doing some soul searching and digging and maybe I’m keeping him as my back up plan and not the other way around.

[mark clemson]

@Darkbloom and NW, you're certainly welcome. I can relate to the position of extricating oneself from an A despite intense emotions. It seems like often by the time APs are posting on this board they are at or near the point where they're ready to start that. So, if I can assist with making that transition go more smoothly I am happy to.

 

It's like the whole addiction thing where recognizing you have a problem is the first step. But then there's a whole lot of challenging follow on steps after that. I think for many people the emotions and bonding get in the way of "just doing it" unfortunately, which tends to drag it out. So one has to get through some real distress to accomplish the goal.