How much to push participation

[norudder]

My 10 yo daughter is introverted and slightly socially avoidant. She has trouble making eye contact, gets fidgety and anxious around new people or large groups. (We did some short term therapy, she's not on the autism spectrum, nor add/ADHD).

 

She's also very smart, quirky and quick wit, creative, she draws, reads, etc. She like video games and anime.

 

She doesn't have any friends she sees outside of school. She says they're too full of drama. I wonder if it's partly rejecting them before they reject her. She's not comfortable expressing emotions or relating through verbal communication. Even with me, I best connect with her through some external thing, usually books, but she says I'm the one she feels "safe" with so there's that at least.

 

She does maintain some friendships virtually through playing games online together (only kids she knows IRL), or face timing.

 

I'm concerned about the impact on her mentally and physically

She has no interest in sports, clubs, or any activities other than being locked away in her room. Although we, with her sister, do go on hikes and swimming a good amount together. I don't want to disconnect her from what appears to be her primary social outlet but would like her to expand.

 

The local library has a monthly tween/teen anime club, with elements of manga and food and culture. I suggested checking it out but she doesn't want to because there's people and it's probably not her preference of anime.

 

Im going to bring her. But am I doing more harm than good?

How much should I push back in her bad attitude about these things? I've tried selling the positives, etc. Said she has to pick something or I will. (I picked a 4h club last summer because she likes animals but again, she mostly sulked and complained). I'm trying not to project onto her (my own preferences, childhood, insecurities, if it's divorce fallout, if it's her father's influence), while still encouraging healthy habits.

 

Is this normal prepubescent attitude? Any similar experiences, advice?

 

Tldr: where's the line between respecting 10 yo daughter's introverted autonomy and teaching healthy social participation?

[Happy Lemming]

Have you discussed your plan (to push your daughter) with your ex-wife??

 

What is her (ex wife's) feelings about the social development of the child?? Are you both in agreement, if yes... then try to push your daughter a bit.

[major_merrick]

You might try to help her out with some supplements to reduce her stress level and get her to be a bit more open. Gentler than prescription drugs, and available over the counter. 5-htp and L-theanine seem to be a combination that works, and has helped my GF#1 come out of her shell a bit over the last year. The 5-htp provides the brain with the building blocks to make more serotonin, which helps with positive outlook. A gentle chemical nudge, if you will. Look it up, talk to a doctor, and see if that is a possibility.

 

But by all means, figure out a way to get her out of her shell a bit.

[basil67]

I know she's not on the spectrum, but my son is so I understand what it is to have a child who doesn't socialise "normally"

 

When you say she's very smart, just how smart are you talking? If she's gifted, she may well find girls of her own age too silly. I mean, tween girls are pretty painful after all

 

Anyway, I think there's a danger in pushing her into activities which you know she doesn't like. It could well push her away from you - and I'm sure you don't want to damage the connection you have with her. I also want to point out that she doesn't have a bad attitude about socialising - she's an introvert so it stands to reason she doesn't want to waste her time hanging about with people she's not interested in. I would also caution you to not view her actions at the animal thing as 'sulking and complaining'. She told you she didn't want to go and you forced her to do it anyway. What else could the poor kid to to be heard? As a fellow introvert, being forced to socialise when you don't want to is a really awful thing to do.

 

However while I don't agree with pushing her, I do think that offering suggestions is good - as long as she doesn't get the impression that you want her to be someone else. What about thinking outside the square with suggestions? Does your local university offer holiday activities for young people? Science or astronomy? Computer?

 

All in all though if she's happy with her life, then why not let her be? Embrace her quirkiness. In ASD parenting, it's not uncommon for parents to push their kids to socialise in ways which the parents think the kids should be socialising. Those parents don't accept that their kids enjoy different kinds of downtime and force them to be something they are not. It's OK to be different.

[norudder]

Have you discussed your plan (to push your daughter) with your ex-wife??

 

What is her (ex wife's) feelings about the social development of the child?? Are you both in agreement, if yes... then try to push your daughter a bit.

 

I'm the exw. Dad is my exh. He wants to force her to do a sport. I'm not really into the idea of forcing beyond the initial push to choose and to at least try something once, doesn't have to be a sport.

 

But yes, I discussed with him. He has the same concerns however he is very much the same way as her. He doesn't work, goes to school part time, stays inside playing video games and watching tv for recreation, which is fine except he also doesn't take them anywhere, not even outside during the summer. There is always a reason he can't.

 

He'll drive her if I sign her up for something though.

[norudder]

You might try to help her out with some supplements to reduce her stress level and get her to be a bit more open. Gentler than prescription drugs, and available over the counter. 5-htp and L-theanine seem to be a combination that works, and has helped my GF#1 come out of her shell a bit over the last year. The 5-htp provides the brain with the building blocks to make more serotonin, which helps with positive outlook. A gentle chemical nudge, if you will. Look it up, talk to a doctor, and see if that is a possibility.

 

But by all means, figure out a way to get her out of her shell a bit.

 

 

That's something to consider, thank you.

[Wallysbears]

I'd limit the screen time. Yes, that's her "thing" and she likes it, but it just isn't healthy.

 

She doesn't have to socialize with people...but I'd make her get out of her room and unplug. She can read, she can draw, she can do whatever...but she gets X amount of time online and that's it.

 

Too much 'virtual' can sometimes lead to a lack of real, in person, social skills in my opinion.

[norudder]

Basil,

 

You're right, I absolutely don't want her to get the impression I think there's anything wrong with her or push her away, especially when it's already so hard to get her to open up.

 

Every outside the box I think of is responded to with a "no", but I'll keep trying and eventually I think she'll gravitate towards something. It's not so much having an activity or "social life" as just having an ability to relate and I guess I was thinking it'd be easier for her to do that if she found her "tribe" of kids with similar interests/personality types. Because yes, she does feel the girls in class are kind of silly and unrelatable.

 

I'm not a social butterfly by any means, I don't think there's anything wrong with introversion or being different, especially if she's happy being that way, I just don't want her to limit her happiness by shutting herself in because having close relationships and a few valuable connections adds a richness to life I hope she experiences.

 

I'll continue the message of acceptance and suggestions. Thank you for sharing your insight.

[norudder]

I'd limit the screen time. Yes, that's her "thing" and she likes it, but it just isn't healthy.

 

She doesn't have to socialize with people...but I'd make her get out of her room and unplug. She can read, she can draw, she can do whatever...but she gets X amount of time online and that's it.

 

Too much 'virtual' can sometimes lead to a lack of real, in person, social skills in my opinion.

 

Yes, that's a rule in effect. She does draw, read, craft (don't get me started on the slime trend).

[Happy Lemming]

I'm the exw. Dad is my exh.

 

He'll drive her if I sign her up for something though.

 

Oops... Sorry about that...

 

But it seems you are both in agreement about her development, so a gentle nudge seems appropriate.

 

Eventually, your daughter is going to be in a situation where she is forced outside of her comfort zone and into a situation where she has to go to an activity.

 

Case in point... Early in my work career, I was forced to take a class on some new software being installed. I really didn't want to bothered with taking this class as I didn't think the company would use this software extension to their current package, but they purchased it anyway. A free class was included, but I just plain didn't want to go to the class. The class was fairly far away (in a bad part of town) and quite a drive to get there. I tried to dig my heels in, but they said go to the class or be fired, so I went.

 

You can't fix your ex-husband and his behavior, but you can steer your daughter towards a healthier lifestyle.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

(TL;DR at bottom!)

 

You sound a lot like me when my daughter was 10. I was so worried about her, went to a therapist to talk about how to get my daughter willing to do therapy, had her evaluated (she actually does have mild ADD/inattentive and generalized anxiety disorder)....I even had a good friend who is a social worker tell me she actually thinks she is somewhere on the spectrum because she had observed her since age 4, although that did not come up on the eval.

 

When she started middle school, one of her teachers told me they all (the teachers) were worried about her because she was like a "scared baby bird."

 

Now she's 18, about to graduate, and her "senior superlative" for the yearbook is "class clown." What!? How in the world did THIS happen?? How did she emerge that far out of her fragile little shell?

 

Thankfully she got in with an amazing friend group in middle school. There are four of them who are still BFFs. "The squad." None of these girls are catty, gossips, selfie-takers, etc. They embrace each other's differences and support one another like crazy. They are all emotionally mature beyond their years. That was pretty much LUCK. All four of them also have pretty great moms.

 

The other thing was to embrace her strengths and NOT push her into doing things she didn't want to do. She is an athletic girl and would be great at sports, but had NO interest whatsoever. A lot of that had to do with her anxiety and not wanting to be "watched." It was a little disappointing, but we didn't push. She's very artistic (pencil drawings, mostly of horses) and we just encouraged the heck out of that. If she wanted to sit in her room or at the kitchen table and draw, great. It calmed her down (note: she's currently going through a period of high anxiety and told me the other day she's been drawing a lot to cope and that she wants to see a therapist, finally...yay!!). She also has always, since she was tiny, loved horses. She finally had her first lesson at 8, and has now owned 4 horses since she was, I think, 13. (She currently only has one that she boards at a local farm). Her typical girl-hood love of horses never went away and it will be part of her life (and if she has her way, her career) for the rest of her life. Horse ownership has given her an extraordinary amount of confidence and purpose (she's a great rider and jumper as well but will never show because of being watched/judged). When she got her driver's license that only intensified because she could drive herself to the barn anytime she wants and doesn't have to rely on her dad or me (we are divorced, FYI). She started being asked to train some horses and get paid for it. She has a GIFT with animals - dogs and horses. She's a natural trainer and is the sole reason our 6-year-old border collie has perfect behavior (the 5-month-old still has a ways to go lol).

 

In addition to the horse thing, she's a really great photographer and that is something we've nurtured and encouraged as well. She has an extraordinary "eye" for lighting. She's been paid to take pics of other people's pets (she mostly does dogs and horses), prom pics, and this year, some of her friends' senior pics. Her graduation gift from me will be a new fancy lense to encourage this gift. She takes new pics at least twice a week and is always editing them. She is GOOD.

 

Along with the ADD she was diagnosed with a math learning disability. She is absolutely terrible at math. She didn't even take the SAT because she did so poorly on the PSAT in math (she's great at grammar and is a really good writer). She will not be going to a four-year college and we're still up in the air about whether or not she will even take a class or two online at the community college this fall. I sure hope she will, but I won't push her. She wants to take a "gap year" and just work. Fine with me if that's what she decides. She's a very hard worker so I'm not worried. She has an interview tomorrow at PetCo and she is so excited .

 

Now, she has "regressed" a little in the last year socially in terms of "wanting to go out." Her friends know this about her and totally accept it as who she is. She's just like her mama and lives for canceled plans, but still wants to be asked lol.

 

My son, who is 16, was the opposite of my daughter for a while....didn't have problems with confidence, had a large group of buds, was a great soccer goalie on a travel team....and then things just started changing when one-by-one all of his buds left his school to go to prep schools, an age rule in our state affected which soccer team he could be on and he would no longer be with his friends (so he stopped altogether ), and eventually since all his friends left his school, he wanted to as well and is now doing cyber school and got a part-time job. I worry about his social skills now more than my daughter's because he spends most of his free time gaming online with his friends (who left for the other schools) and the only real-life interaction he has with people is at the restaurant where he is a busboy. He's quiet, but not unhappy. His online presence with his friends may even be a small blessing in disguise, at least for his one buddy who has had to take almost the entire year off school being treated for leukemia. He's been able to be there for him (online) way more than he would have been able to if he was in traditional school still. I hope in a couple of years he will go to a four-year college and come out of his shell a bit more. I only offer him as an example to say all kids go through phases and you're worried about different things at different times in their lives! (He was a terror as a baby/toddler/young boy and even ended up in the ER because he jumped out his own bedroom window on purpose).

 

Sorry this got so long. TL;DR: My daughter is an 18-year-old introvert who was a lot like your daughter at 10, and she's going to be just fine....she's grown so much in the last 8 years. Everyone comments on how much she's matured emotionally and mentally. Nurture your daughter's strengths and talents and she will be just fine.

[norudder]

CO,

 

You're a bit further along in the journey, thanks for sharing your experience. Definitely encouraging coming from similar background.

 

My daughter's world will definitely continue to get bigger as she goes to middle school and on. There are probably friends she just hasn't met yet. I just have to be patient and encouraging in the ways I can. Glad your daughter found her squad, sounds like a good group (kids and mom's ? )!

[preraph]

You're exactly right that she's rejecting them before they couldn't reject her and taking me superior attitude over them. You need to stress that it is important to learn to get along with people and tell her that just looking them in the eye and smiling goes a long way to acceptance.

 

You absolutely should make her take as many activities as possible where she will be working within a group. when I was in school you didn't have any choice. You had to work in a group in gym class. Yes sometimes there was some teasing. but you have to learn to deal with it because that's part of becoming an adult. I would definitely put her into a gym class where they did interactive things whether she likes sports or not. She should learn how to work on a team and do soccer and being a class where they do exercises. I never liked sports either, but no one is asking her to pursue that as a career. It's about fitness and working together with people whether you feel like talking to them or not.

 

You should put her in girl scouts above all else. the reason I say that is because of girl scouts always have supervision and are usually nice girls, I'm scouting teaches you a lot of survival skills and gets you out of your bubble. If you have no scout troop leader I suggest you become one and talk to maybe another friend of yours to help out. Don't let her just sit out and not participate. You have to prepare her to get out in the real world. It's not easy these days.

[Veronica73]

I disagree with the suggestion of making her do as many group activities as possible or making her do Girl Scouts. However, I don’t see anything wrong with making her pick one sort of activity or club or something to participate in, especially in the summer when she isn’t in school.

 

When she is in school, she is already participating in group activities most of the day. And that is surely not her preferred way of being. It may be tiring for her. If she is quirky and introverted she may feel like she doesn’t really fit in. Have her teachers said that she doesn’t get along with people?

 

I’m extremely introverted. Like I was even tested by a psychologist as a child and was 100% on the introverted side of the scale. And this has not changed at all as an adult. I think I’m about as introverted as you can be and still maintain relationships and hold down a job. I also have social anxiety disorder, but did see a cognitive behavioral psychologist as an adult and that helped a ton.

 

But I still don’t love most group activities. I am a little weird and quirky, but I have found a few people who appreciate that. I have a couple of close friends who I prefer to spend time with one on one, not in groups. I need a lot of alone time. It’s not that I can’t get along with people in groups. I do fine. But it’s not my preferred way of being and it can get tiring.

 

I guess I just want to reiterate, that school in itself is a large group activity for the most part. So making her do group activities after school seems like overkill for an introverted person. Introverts need time to recharge after group activities.

And she does things with you and her sister so it’s not like she is completely isolated. If she’s quirky and introverted it may just take her a little more time to find a good friend than it would a more “normal” kid.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I disagree with the suggestion of making her do as many group activities as possible or making her do Girl Scouts. However, I don’t see anything wrong with making her pick one sort of activity or club or something to participate in, especially in the summer when she isn’t in school.

 

I agree. And, further, if a child picks something they want to do, you pay for it, then they start not wanting to finish it.....tough noogies unless something drastic is happening like they are being bullied, having panic attacks, etc.

[Mr. Lucky]

However, I don’t see anything wrong with making her pick one sort of activity or club or something to participate in, especially in the summer when she isn’t in school.

 

Agreed. I look at it this way - if all she wanted to eat was sweets and carbs, would your instinct be to just let her indulge?

 

It's a parental duty to expand your child's horizons and nudge them out of their comfort zone. This can include taking them places they don't want to go, encouraging activities they don't initially want to do and promoting experiences outside their usual lane.

 

norudder, in your case - were it me - it would be a team or group activity. Can be sports but doesn't have to be, there's speech, debate, gaming, coding, chess, volunteer, etc. I "incentivized" each of my four kids to do so in middle and high school as a condition of online and driving privileges, each thanked me later in life.

 

Sometimes you have to show them the way...

 

Mr. Lucky

[nospam99]

Two thoughts...

 

If she's as bright as you say and finds the girls her age too 'silly'. Maybe consider encouraging her to make older, less silly friends. This is dicey because it could give the girls her age an excuse to ostracize her, so be careful. Maybe girls only one year older.

 

Even better (maybe)... Even if you and she are not religious, you may get some (or a lot) of benefit out of a youth group and/or teenage mentor through your church. In my experience, the young people who engage and help their peers through an organized religious setting are mature, serious, sensitive, and caring.

 

Good luck

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Agreed. I look at it this way - if all she wanted to eat was sweets and carbs, would your instinct be to just let her indulge?

 

It's a parental duty to expand your child's horizons and nudge them out of their comfort zone.

 

This is really good advice from Mr. Lucky. There's definitely a fine line, but sometimes it is our job to push them outside of their comfort zone.

 

OP - I reread your original post and I think it's actually a great thing she doesn't want to be part of the drama, thinks the kids are silly and unrelatable. Of course they are not all like that, but it shows a lot of emotional maturity. My daughter was and is the same way. She and her "squad" always steered clear of the gossip girls, the mean girls, and I've received compliments from teachers about how inclusive they are of, and kind to, others (even while in their "squad"). Your daughter will probably end up developing better quality friendships because of her emotional maturity.

 

There are other ways to develop socially other than team sports and activities, although those are certainly really, really great things as well!

[norudder]

Mr Lucky,

 

You're right, that's a useful metaphor. I used it myself to remember why I couldn't go back to their dad when they asked why we couldn't all be together. They don't have the ability to understand at that age what's in their best interest long term.

 

CO,

 

There was a school talent show and one of the girls forgot her lyrics, some kids were starting to whisper but my daughter clapped because she said the girl still deserved it for trying. You're right that it's a good thing she's ok being different when it comes out in ways like that.

 

Spoke with dad, we agreed technology privileges will be earned with a club membership.

 

She went to the anime night with a good attitude. Unfortunately they aren't continuing on an ongoing basis, but it was a good effort. We went to an international grocery and had some good one on one time too which is always precious to me.

 

Thank you everyone for your advice and encouragement!

Edited April 20, 2019 by norudder

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

There was a school talent show and one of the girls forgot her lyrics, some kids were starting to whisper but my daughter clapped because she said the girl still deserved it for trying.

 

 

Amazing!

[Mr. Lucky]

She went to the anime night with a good attitude. Unfortunately they aren't continuing on an ongoing basis, but it was a good effort.

 

Is there someway the anime group can continue with your - and your daughter's - involvement? When my son was in HS, we rescued Speech/Debate through fundraisers, parental support, etc. Just a suggestion...

 

Mr. Lucky

[noelle303]

Mr Lucky,

 

You're right, that's a useful metaphor. I used it myself to remember why I couldn't go back to their dad when they asked why we couldn't all be together. They don't have the ability to understand at that age what's in their best interest long term.

 

CO,

 

There was a school talent show and one of the girls forgot her lyrics, some kids were starting to whisper but my daughter clapped because she said the girl still deserved it for trying. You're right that it's a good thing she's ok being different when it comes out in ways like that.

 

Spoke with dad, we agreed technology privileges will be earned with a club membership.

 

She went to the anime night with a good attitude. Unfortunately they aren't continuing on an ongoing basis, but it was a good effort. We went to an international grocery and had some good one on one time too which is always precious to me.

 

Thank you everyone for your advice and encouragement!

 

 

That is great. She seems to be a little bit wise beyond her years and will probably find herself better and fit in more as she and her peers grow up and they get more on her level.

 

I do still think participation should be encouraged. We need to guide our kids and push them out of their comfort zone sometimes. I make sure that my daughter knows I love her unconditionally and would never want to change who she is as a person. But I am also her mother and it's my job to raise her and educate her to lead a healthy life and form healthy habits.

 

I think being introverted does not mean being happy sitting in your room alone all the time. Introverts also need human companionship, as all humans do. And since they have a harder time forming connections, they do need extra help with that and there's nothing wrong with it.

[anika99]

I was an extremely introverted child and that never changed in adulthood. I didn't like groups and my favorite activity was being alone in my room reading my books. However even I usually had one or two little friends that I liked being friends with. We would ride our bikes and have sleepovers and tell each other our dreams and secrets. It was a wonderful part of developing and growing up.

 

There were a few periods in my childhood when I had zero friends. The reason for that is because my mother thought it was fun to move a lot with no consideration for my emotional wellbeing or stability. It was the norm for me enroll in at least a couple of schools per year, in grades 2 and 3 I actually went to three different schools per year. Being shy and extremely introverted, sometimes the kids just didn't accept me at these schools and I would be left friendless.

 

Have you spoken with your daughter's teachers about this and been given a clear picture of how the other kids interact with her? They may be rejecting her more than she is rejecting them. Are they friendly with her? Do they welcome her into activities? Can she interact well with other kids when she needs to? Kids can sometimes be mean without outright bullying. Sometimes it's just a silent shunning.

 

As someone else said, being introverted doesn't mean you don't need any human connections. It doesn't mean you have no interest in activities. I'm still extremely introverted till this day but I still have hobbies and interests and I love being outside biking and walking in the nice weather. So I feel like there is more going on here than just being introverted. Definitely plan some activities and get your daughter to participate. She is at a tender age and I would limit her online hours and keep a close eye on what she does on the internet and who she talks to.

[BaileyB]

I agree with Anika, I was also a very introverted child and I continue to be a somewhat introverted adult. I like to think of myself as “an outgoing introvert.” In my job, I work with people and I have many relationships, but I still consider myself to be an introvert because I need time to myself to recharge and I am never happier than when I have a day at home alone.

 

As a child, my mom would always be pushing me to call friends/go out with friends. I was perfectly happy to be home with my family, doing the things that I enjoyed - reading, watching tv, riding my bike, swimming in our backyard pool. Hanging out with friends was exhausting for me, sometimes. I saw them more than enough at school and I was involved in many sports... I just wanted some alone time.

 

It sounds to me OP that you are a wonderful parent, respecting your child’s interests and wishes. A gentle nudge now and again is not unwarranted, as children don’t have all the answers just yet. I think you know when that is required. Just trust your gut, you know your child.

[Miss Clavel]

ooo. doesn't the fact that she told you she feels safe with you just touch your heart?

 

sniff

 

she also feels safe in her world. find some other people and places that she feels safe with.

 

unless, since i only read the first page, you are going to leave her a bundle of money when you move to heaven, she is going to need to work. and that requires an entire set of social skills. christ, i'm still trying to figure out office intrigue and the scheming lazy people i spend 40 hours with.

 

i think the girl scouts is a wonderful idea. nice nice kids there.

 

also, do look into seeing if she should go to what they call down here, "gifted" classes. they test her IQ and have her answer some questions from the school district physiologist. down here, it's free.

 

that should help as well.

 

i think you are doing great.

 

all the best.