God's protection

[E-mc2]

has been among my musings lately. I'd like to hear others opinions on it.

 

If God is real and he answers prayer and protects his people shouldn't you statistically see it? I'll use christianity because that's what I'm most familiar with but you could use any religion. I'll just rattle off a few statements or points. Basically if God is real, protects his people, heals and answers prayer the following should be true.

 

1- The survival rate of cancer patients should be significantly higher among christians than other religions or non-religious.

 

2- The divorce rate of christians should be significantly lower than secular couples.

 

3- Sexual assault among christians should be significantly lower because they ask Jesus for protection. Likewise, children of fathers who pray for the protection of their daughters should see a decrease in sexual assault. (I have daughters so I'm very sensitive and sympathetic towards this one)

 

4- The nights my wife prays to Jesus with my daughter so her nightmares will stop should produce a better night's sleep versus the nights I pray with her to the fairy god-mother, hypothetically.

 

5- Overall mental health and well being should be higher among christians versus non-believers. I think this one is most significant.

 

Give me logical reasons or documented proven miracles to believe that God works through prayer. Please no hear-say or ambiguous stories of coincidence. We are talking statistically here and about the population as a whole.

Edited April 19, 2019 by E-mc2

[basil67]

Athiest here. My understanding is that faith rather than logic is what underpins belief.

 

Sorry to hear about your daughter having nightmares. Have you looked into getting her a child psychologist to assist in strategies to help her move past them?

[E-mc2]

Athiest here. My understanding is that faith rather than logic is what underpins belief.

 

Sorry to hear about your daughter having nightmares. Have you looked into getting her a child psychologist to assist in strategies to help her move past them?

 

 

Agnostic here.

 

 

The nightmares are under control. I think all kids get them to some degree. We found it important to monitor the type of cartoons she watches. It's helped.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

You obviously want to disprove Christianity since you said "logical reasons" or "documented proof" and no "ambiguous coincidences" so I will refrain from answering with multiple examples since it's clear all you want is an argument or debate and will just chalk anything positive up to coincidence. You believe in the scientific method. Great for you. Faith doesn't work that way, and I'm ok with that. Just today I sent a text to my "group" of 10 women (including me, so 9 other women) asking for immediate prayer for a specific issue. Within 30 minutes, there was a positive answer to prayer (even if not in "my" favor, it would have been an answer to prayer). But you would say that was just coincidence and not "statistically proven" so....nah, I'll pass.

 

Nice try though.

 

Hope your daughter's nightmares improve.

[Timshel]

Give me logical reasons or documented proven miracles to believe that We are talking statistically here and about the population as a whole.

 

 

As Basil said, sorry for your daughter's nightmares and talking with your primary care physician is a good idea.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll get stats about God and religious beliefs (its a personal thing.) Though there is compelling evidence and if you want to be convinced of something then only shysters will oblige.

[todreaminblue]

when i was a child i wanted the magic tv off playschool and so i asked santa for it......i wrote a long letter to santa explaining how i would share it with my baby sister .....i never did get that magic tv but i did...get a beautiful brides doll my mother had saved up for with a home made brides dress made by my own mums hands .....

 

.....sometimes we dont get what we want......sometimes the timing is idfferent or what is best for us isnt evidently seen by us...but god knows...nightmares are often a release...horrible yes.....but necessary.....

 

i could blame god for the fact he didnt protect me when i was a child being raped by my babysitter..... but i dont...because it was my babysitter who chose to do what he did to me...with his agency and free will and mental illness....arent all rapists in a way ...ill....i believe most are sick in the head....

 

god comforted me ...my faith in god as a child helped me.....my prayers...he answered them in ways......like my grandfather coming to me in a dream the night he had died.....promising me to not worry ....and that i would see him again soon.....

 

god is often a scapegoat an easy patsy for the unexplained and thE wrong...but...as intelligent christians athiests muslims catholics jewish whatever faith we trust in....or not trust in...we as humans need to take responsibility and understand we make our choices......and act upon them...when we are beiNG acted upon by another it is by their agency and free will to do so......god knows all that happens....and sometimes those things arent nice to happen.....but....because of the way all threads of life are interwoven .....they may need to happen to instil change.....in someone elses life..or even our own lives......like ripples in a pond we dont see a horizon in.....like trials we dont understand.....that we have to go through to grow closer to wisdom and experience ..ultimately closer to god........

 

what i know about god...is that he is good...god is love.....and that god cares for us all...atheist and faith filled alike......everybody bad or good...god loves us all....and wants us to succeed....whatever our life holds....he knows us every hair on our head ...and every trial we go through....he is with us ...

with bad choices people make to harm others .......one daY....IF NOT ON EARTH...THERE WILL BE JUSTICE HAD....and for that reason i believe every human should go through life with the intention to help others and not harm....you should feel good to help others and bad when you harm that is gods nature....god must weep often with the harm people do to each other...........deb

Edited April 19, 2019 by todreaminblue

[E-mc2]

so I will refrain from answering with multiple examples since it's clear all you want is an argument or debate and will just chalk anything positive up to coincidence.

 

True, I may take something positive and chalk it up as coincidence but I feel that religious folk take coincidence and chalk it up as God. I suppose it's irritating for both of us on the opposite side of the fence.

Edited April 20, 2019 by E-mc2

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

True, I may take something positive and chalk it up as coincidence but I feel that religious folk take coincidence and chalk it up as God. I suppose it's irritating for both of us on the opposite side of the fence.

 

We can agree on that and still remain respectful .

[chillii]

Why would you come to a forum if you want proof you'll have to get out there and find it.

 

But sorry about your daughter, it is very common though , not that that helps . Mines 18 now and has always had imagination triple other kids , so when she was little , the tiniest of things most would miss, could set her off.

So yeah , if you can help avoid some of the stuff around , tv , media, even cartoons, even the damn Simpsons on one show they were playing soccer with human heads , and at the same time the whole world was fighting Isle, go fkg figure that one out. And hey it must've been popular because they were still messing with heads 2weeks later l know bc my daughter was watching it in the background before we realized, thought we could go relax with her watching the damn Simpsons.

Ha, think again.

You'd probably be amazed at what she's seeing aRound and taking in , even on ads during kids shows, and if you can cut a lot of that back or out, it really helped ours.

Edited April 20, 2019 by chillii

[divegrl]

Hi!

 

The label of God is not unique to Christianity.

 

Sending infinite love and energy.

[Wallysbears]

CSLewis has a good apologetics book on this subject.

[E-mc2]

Hi!

 

The label of God is not unique to Christianity.

 

 

There are literally thousands of Gods that have been identified and documented throughout the ages.

 

 

 

what i know about god...is that

 

How did you come to your knowledge of God and what convinced you in your mind that you are following the right God? You mentioned a few different religions but many of them are opposed to each other, claiming not only to be the right way, but the only way.

[Ronni_W]

If God is real and he answers prayer and protects his people shouldn't you statistically see it?

To my understanding, people can use their free will to override the 'mechanisms' that God has put in place for our spiritual protection, healing, etc.

 

We ourselves need to 'activate' those mechanisms, including through sincerely and with confidence asking (petitioning) for protection, healing, etc.

When you or your wife prays with your daughter, it is your daughter's desire and sincerity that actually produces her results.

 

Even well-meaning Christians have not been given all the true spiritual teachings and insights to be able to properly understand how they might be able to improve their own circumstances and

conditions on Earth...this is not God's oversight or fault, but how humankind (beginning with the first Roman Christians) has distorted and perverted the true teachings for personal gain and

to have control over the masses.

Even the currently-available Gnostic Christian texts have been similarly infected.

 

The Law of Free Will also dictates that there needs to be space for each person to have 'plausible deniability'...to be able to either not see

or else not believe instances where other people do perceive/recognize so-called 'miracles'.

[preraph]

I can only offer what I've learned in my lifetime, and that is that no one has a bigger influence over how your life will go than you. You direct your life. If there is a God, he gave humans brains so he doesn't have to micromanage their lives. You must guide your own life and not give your power away hoping there is a bigger influence out there. There isn't. No one can make more difference in your life than you, so get busy directing your life to where you want it to go and don't wait for the wind to blow you in a random direction.

[E-mc2]

people can use their free will to override the 'mechanisms' that God has put in place for our spiritual protection, healing, etc........

 

 

Even well-meaning Christians have not been given all the true spiritual teachings and insights to be able to properly understand how they might be able to improve their own circumstances and conditions on Earth

 

1- Can you give a definition of what ONE of those "mechanisms" might be? That's pretty vague so I don't know what you're getting at.

 

2- Completely disagree with the second part. The first thing you're taught being a Christian is that the Bible is the inerrant, spoken word of God and completely sufficient to fulfill righteousness (2 Timothy 3-16-17). Christians do not lack spiritual teaching.

 

I can only offer what I've learned in my lifetime, and that is that no one has a bigger influence over how your life will go than you. You direct your life. If there is a God, he gave humans brains so he doesn't have to micromanage their lives. You must guide your own life and not give your power away hoping there is a bigger influence out there. There isn't. No one can make more difference in your life than you, so get busy directing your life to where you want it to go and don't wait for the wind to blow you in a random direction.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. I was just talking with my wife about this the other day. We gave each other examples of people we know who are in hardship and it's a direct result of the choices they made in life. I have come to realize how the vast majority of the problems and hardships 'we' face in life are self inflicted.

 

Now with that said. Life is life, and sometimes bad things happen to good people, "crap happens". It happens to all of us. But there is also a lot of bad things that happen to people and they have no one to blame but themselves.... Funny thing is many never see it that way. Eyes closed and ears plugged.

Edited April 20, 2019 by E-mc2

[divegrl]

Hi!

 

The best answer that resonates with me is that we, as humans, don’t know the full story.

 

We don’t know the full story. Only God does. We have to trust that He is working everything together for good. Faith that He will never leave us or forsake us.

 

Have a beautiful day my friend.

[Ronni_W]

E-mc2,

 

1- One of the 'mechanisms' is what I mentioned: prayer or petitioning. Based on what you said, I assume that you do believe in it enough to at least do it with your daughter...

...that you are invoking 'the power of a fairy-godmother' doesn't actually mitigate...and you're still perpetuating the idea of 'god' in that term, in and of itself.

 

2- Yes...and that's the first thing about which honest and sincere Christians have been misled...and it is exactly what leads them to all of their other spiritual misconceptions

and lack of true spiritual teachings.

[E-mc2]

E-mc2,

 

1- One of the 'mechanisms' is what I mentioned: prayer or petitioning. Based on what you said, I assume that you do believe in it enough to at least do it with your daughter...

...that you are invoking 'the power of a fairy-godmother' doesn't actually mitigate...and you're still perpetuating the idea of 'god' in that term, in and of itself.

 

2- Yes...and that's the first thing about which honest and sincere Christians have been misled...and it is exactly what leads them to all of their other spiritual misconceptions

and lack of true spiritual teachings.

 

1- I was being facetious about praying to the fairy god-mother. My point was wether I pray to God or the fairy god-mother the results would be the same which would lead me to believe that prayer doesn't work in the first place. If I understand you right, you're saying it's an impossible test because prayer is being offered up in both instances. Yes and no. On my end the fairy god-mother prayer is a blasphemous one. I may as well pray to Satan, or a sex goddess, or just a rock. Are you saying that if someone prays to Jesus or they pray to a rock it doesn't matter because they are still praying to a universal God that hears all? If so explain. I'm actually pretty intrigued.

 

BTW, I never meant to imply prayer doesn't work. Here is an example I once heard. If two people are trapped in a cave and one prays and the other doesn't the one who prays is more likely to survive. They will stay calm, use less oxygen and have more hope to be rescued. So prayer can work, but that doesn't mean it was God. I think prayer can work for my daughter too. I just don't think it's God coming down and taking scary thoughts out of her mind. Thus, praying to God or a rock would yield the same results. That was my point in the fairy god-mother.

 

2- So you think Bible is wrong or inadequate? I do too, so I don't disagree with what you said if I understand you right. What I would like to know is where did you get your spiritual knowledge and how do you know you are correct? What spiritual teachings are you referring too?

Edited April 21, 2019 by E-mc2

[Justanaverageguy]

I couldn't agree with you more. I was just talking with my wife about this the other day. We gave each other examples of people we know who are in hardship and it's a direct result of the choices they made in life. I have come to realize how the vast majority of the problems and hardships 'we' face in life are self inflicted.

 

Now with that said. Life is life, and sometimes bad things happen to good people, "crap happens". It happens to all of us. But there is also a lot of bad things that happen to people and they have no one to blame but themselves.... Funny thing is many never see it that way. Eyes closed and ears plugged.

 

So just my two cents but what you have written above is completely compatible with all major Spiritual teachings - including the one you specifically mentioned - Christianity.

 

Buddhists and Hindus refer to this as simply Karma. Christian teaching uses terms like "Reeping what you sow" or "Do unto others as you have them do unto you". According to Christianity the way to receive "protection from God" is quite simple. Obedience - and putting into practice Christs teaching of living a righteous and virtuous life. Additionally Jesus offered "grace" - that meaning unmerited forgiveness and restoration for those who made grave errors in the past - but realized the gravity of their mistakes and then sort to change their life and make amends. In a nutshell - a helping hand back from past mistakes.

 

At the core of the teaching however this is what Jesus said about Gods protection:

 

For anyone who hears these teachings and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. When the rains came and the flood waters rose and the winds beat upon that house ..... it remained standing because it had been built upon a solid foundation. But any man who hears these words and does not put them into practice - I would liken that man unto a fool who built his house on sand. When the winds came and the waters rose and the winds beat upon the house - the house fell and great was its destruction.

 

Jesus was the king of the metaphor. And belief in god didn't simply mean saying "I believe" - if you actually believe it meant doing what he said. this is the essence of the Christian teaching. Live a good life, don't be greedy, arrogant or judgmental - honor god and show compassion for and help other people around you. You will not be spared from going through lifes storms - they still come for everyone - but if you consistently do these things over your life you will emerge on the other side of them not only victorious - but a better and refined version of yourself for having gone through them.

 

In deed in Christian teaching there is even a deeper understanding which runs as a counter point to your original observation\statistical analysis. that Christians, Jews and others faiths blessed with knowledge and understanding of Gods ways will be judged much more harshly for their mistakes in life. Rather then knowledge of God only being a positive thing - it also means consequences for wrong behavior are also increased as our knowledge, understanding and maturity level rises. Similar to how you treat a maturing child - as understanding increases - so do consequences for wrong actions.

 

That servant who knew what his master wanted but didn’t prepare himself or do what was wanted will receive a severe beating. But the servant who did things wrong without knowing it will receive a light beating. Much will be required from everyone to whom much has been given and even more will be demanded from the one to whom much has been entrusted.

 

So I would simply say you cannot judge people based purely on their outward words or even the god or faith they profess to follow. Its far more complex - instead you must judge them on their actions and their understanding. If you do this my experience has shown me the above words ring true.

 

Give me logical reasons or documented proven miracles to believe that God works through prayer.

So have you heard of the placebo effect ? the power of belief to heal. Its so well documented and understood in science we created entire test methods - double blind - to take it into account and measure healing effects outside of belief healing. Here is something new that may strike you as interesting. Placebo effects extending beyond drug and pharma trials into the effects of fake surgeries on disease and injury showing absolutely no difference in healing outcomes from a real surgery - the power of healing through belief is very real and scientifically proven beyond doubt.

 

 

^^^^^^ this is science just starting to scratch the surface and harness in a very primitive way of the healing method Jesus and other spiritual teachers have taught for 2000+ years.

 

I've seen and experienced many in my life. 2 basic ingredients are required for prayer to work.

1. A person or persons to pray (place belief in a desired outcome) - generally speaking the more "righteous the person" or the larger the group the more powerful the results.

2. Strong faith and belief that what you pray for will come to pass. the stronger the belief the faster and more powerfully the outcome is manifest. (law of attraction has shown methods to make this work more powerfully)

 

In the bible - their are multiple recorded cases where even Jesus - considered to be god incarnate - was himself unable to perform miracles. See the only impediment to him performing miracles was being in the presence of people who did not believe what was being prayed for was possible. He performed few miracles in his home town because the people that knew him from his childhood didn't respect or understand who he was - he was simply a carpenters son - and they held no belief he could do what he said so he couldn't help or heal any of the people who thought it not possible.

 

So a question for you: Given the above requirements for prayer to work - How do you ever suppose you yourself could ever hope to see prayer work or see a miracle - when your own beliefs currently run exactly opposite to the requirements that make them possible ? Its like saying clearly microscopic lifeforms don't exist but refusing to open yourself to use the tools like a microscope that are required to actually see them. Your lack of faith - or perhaps better said faith in the opposite belief precludes you from experience. In the science of healing - this is referred to as the "nocebo" effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo. Belief that a treatment wont work - similar but inversely to placebo statistically causes them to fail or produce negative health outcomes.

 

Quite a curious paradox. You dont believe because you have never seen. But you will never see because you don't believe. Rather what you do believe ..... that prayers do not work will be made manifest to you. this too is a type of prayer you are actually praying without consciously realizing.

 

Your handle indicates you are a man of science .... so why not open your mind to a new possibility and conduct an experiment. Could be a simple one without even needing to directly insert god. Simply believe that your childs nightmares will no longer cause her problems. Focus on this. Imagine interactions where she tells you she has slept soundly. Imagine the feelings of relief and gladness with your wife around this. What you will feel when this happens. Say it out loud - tell your wife and child confidently your nightmares are just a phase and will pass quickly and never be an issue again. And if you need to even use a "belief crutch" (like the fake surgery) to make it easier to imagine and believe in this positive outcome ..... you can attach it to a change in behaviour like you already mentioned - changing the cartoons she watches. If she stops watching - she will get better. Maybe you can even get some sugar pills and tell your daughter they are medication designed to improve sleep. If this makes it easier for you and her to believe in the positive outcome - the cesation of nightmares - then use it. But you will be left with the question was it the cartoons that fixed the nightmares- or simply your confident belief that you attached to the change in behaviour ? Questions for further investigation

 

Ask and it is given

Seek and ye will find

You just have to be conscious of what you are seeking and asking for

 

I wish your daughter well - and am certain her issues with nightmares will be a distant memory in the near future - and even more that this seemingly negative experience might actually act as a positive doorway designed to bring you and your family towards a deeper relationship with and understanding of God.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Ronni_W]

If I understand you right, you're saying it's an impossible test because prayer is being offered up in both instances. Yes and no. On my end the fairy god-mother prayer is a blasphemous one.

I said that in both cases your daughter's prayer is being offered sincerely by herself, for herself. Unlike what it says in the Judeo-Christian Old Testament,

God does not actually visit the sins of the parent upon the child. There is, however, a way to give that concept spiritual validity. (Way too long/complex to go into here.)

 

Are you saying that if someone prays to Jesus or they pray to a rock it doesn't matter because they are still praying to a universal God that hears all?

If so explain. I'm actually pretty intrigued.

Not at all am I saying that! . I am saying that there needs to be a pure intention and desire within the consciousness that is offering the prayer.

(If you truly believed me when I told you that a rock is God, and you then sincerely prayed to rocks on account of your genuine belief...then your act is acceptable to God...

...but, I will have generated spiritual consequences (negative Karma) for myself, because of having deliberately deceived, misguided and misled you.)

 

So you think Bible is wrong or inadequate?

It's not disputed that the early Roman Christians tampered with, edited, redacted the Books and Gospels of the Judeo-Christian Bible, and not all of them made it into the final 'official' version.

(Search on 'Council of Nicea'.) This is the main reason that there are so many inconsistencies, incongruencies and discrepancies...that people were/are supposed to just 'take on blind faith'...

...and not question or think about...for, logic would cause their entire 'house of cards' to fall down.

 

... how do you know you are correct?

Actually, by studying some of those very books that were redacted, discredited and made to be 'blasphemous'. Some survived through the early Gnostic Christians,

others became available upon the discoveries of The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadhi manuscripts.

 

For my own sense that I am on a 'right path', I have also studied some of the spiritual texts of some other faith traditions...and the more similarities

and commonalities that I find amongst all of them, the better I feel about accepting what it says. (At the same time, my mind isn't closed off to new, or different, or higher.)

 

If you are interested, I could offer you a list of the texts that I have found most helpful, useful and enlightening...just let me know.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Ronni_W
Added clarification.

[E-mc2]

Not at all am I saying that! . I am saying that there needs to be a pure intention and desire within the consciousness that is offering the prayer.

(If you truly believed me when I told you that a rock is God, and you then sincerely prayed to rocks on account of your genuine belief...then your act is acceptable to God

 

So then you ARE saying that. [saying that if someone prays to Jesus or they pray to a rock it doesn't matter because they are still praying to a universal God that hears all? If so explain]

 

According to what you said if I pray to Jesus, Allah, Zeus, or whoever, it doesn't matter as long as I believe it and I'm sincere. I guess that would explain why every religion experiences miracles. Or perhaps none of them are. I go with the latter.

[E-mc2]

So have you heard of the placebo effect ? the power of belief to heal. Its so well documented and understood in science we created entire test methods - double blind - to take it into account and measure healing effects outside of belief healing. Here is something new that may strike you as interesting. Placebo effects extending beyond drug and pharma trials into the effects of fake surgeries on disease and injury showing absolutely no difference in healing outcomes from a real surgery - the power of healing through belief is very real and scientifically proven beyond doubt.

 

Would love to comment on more but it's been a busy week. Yes, I know of the placebo effect. See my comment in post #18. Let's not confuse belief healing with God doing a miracle.

 

Also, let's say 4 people get a migraine headache. One takes tylenol, one takes a fake sugar pill, one prays to God, and the other does nothing. In all four cases the migraine headache will eventually pass but each person will have a different reason for it. The religious person will claim to be healed by God.

 

Sorry but claiming that God healed your headache is one of those ambiguous coincidences I talked about earlier.

[Justanaverageguy]

Would love to comment on more but it's been a busy week. Yes, I know of the placebo effect. See my comment in post #18. Let's not confuse belief healing with God doing a miracle.

 

Also, let's say 4 people get a migraine headache. One takes tylenol, one takes a fake sugar pill, one prays to God, and the other does nothing. In all four cases the migraine headache will eventually pass but each person will have a different reason for it. The religious person will claim to be healed by God.

 

Sorry but claiming that God healed your headache is one of those ambiguous coincidences I talked about earlier.

 

Sure - I take your point and agree to a certain extent I think here we might need to clarify a couple of points - like what prayer is. Likely we agree on some points but not others. Firstly on this one:

 

"Claiming that God healed your headache is one of those ambiguous coincidences I talked about earlier."

 

No it really isn't a coincidence - but we can debate how the healing took place. In the example you provided above all 4 treatments would have statistically different healing results. Belief healing is repeatable and testable and would have a marked improvement in recovery from the illness over option 4 just like the sugar pill does. If your'e a believing Christian this isn't a coincidence. Its a type of science taught by Jesus which western medicine and modern science is only just grasping in a very weak and rudimentary way (and often only to exclude it when evaluating the effects of other treatments.) We test how increasing the strength of a drug effects healing outcomes .... but never how increasing the strength of belief does.

 

Jesus taught: Ask and it is given. Believe and you shall receive. (And not just for healing - but for everything in life). He didn't teach simply if I ask god he will do it for me. He said - do it yourself- by believing it will happen. It is essentially one of Gods laws like gravity - we have free will and the ability to bring into our life what we focus on. We as co-creators with god are blessed with consciousness and the power to create like he is ..... only difference is we have a much much more limited level of power then he has. When we place belief in a desired outcome its also much slower to manifest. this is mostly for our own protection while we grow and learn how to use it wisely .... so only those things we continually focus on come into our reality. If I focus on being sick .... I remain sick. If I focus on how my wife is annoying .... she becomes more annoying. If I focus on being healed - I eventually become healed.

 

Humans have to focus on the desired outcome for a period of time holding the belief strongly for it to create an effect and the effect is made more powerful by 1. How strongly we believe and how much focus we place on it 2. How many people together focus on the desired outcome. 3. the level of spiritual energy the people are endowed with which is determined mostly by how righteous they are. ^^^^ this is what we call - Prayer.

 

Additionally we can when praying ask for Gods assistance to lend his power to put behind our beliefs. When this happens we move away from your typical placebo type healing or general law of attraction type stuff which takes time to manifest and we enter the world of miracles. Where beliefs are manifest instantly. this is what Jesus spent his ministry doing. going to people who were hurting and giving his spiritual power to them - so what they believed - healing and restoration - could be made manifest instantly through the immense spiritual power he had passed to them. this is why the one requirement he always had for healing people was - belief it was possible. God cannot help you if you believe it not possible - his power would only make that opposite belief more real.

 

Mat9:27As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, crying loudly, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” When he entered the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your belief let it be done to you.” And their eyes were opened.

 

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[E-mc2]

Placebo effects extending beyond drug and pharma trials into the effects of fake surgeries on disease and injury showing absolutely no difference in healing outcomes from a real surgery - the power of healing through belief is very real and scientifically proven beyond doubt.

 

As per the O.P. everyone else said there was no scientific way to test if prayer works. You say there is, awesome, now I feel like we are getting somewhere. I believe 100% that if prayer DOES work it should be able to be demonstrated scientifically. Otherwise it just doesn't exist except in peoples minds. I am skeptical of placebo effect outcomes of real surgery on body parts that are actually broken. You'd have to show proof of the study before I would consider it.

 

I think here we might need to clarify a couple of points - like what prayer is. Likely we agree on some points but not others. Firstly on this one:

 

"Claiming that God healed your headache is one of those ambiguous coincidences I talked about earlier."

 

No it really isn't a coincidence - but we can debate how the healing took place. In the example you provided above all 4 treatments would have statistically different healing results. Belief healing is repeatable and testable and would have a marked improvement in recovery from the illness over option 4 just like the sugar pill does. If your'e a believing Christian this isn't a coincidence.

 

I see it as all 4 treatments have the same healing result, not different. The headache went away. Thus, the logical conclusion would be it's uncertain why headaches go away until further knowledge is gained. If prayer works the same as a sugar pill then why would you think prayer worked?

 

you said [i think here we might need to clarify a couple of points - like what prayer is.]

 

Yes very important. Thank you for pointing that out. When I say prayer, I'm talking about petitioning a supreme powerful Being so that [he, she or it] would manipulate the natural processes so they become supernatural. What I'm NOT talking about it positive thinking, happy thoughts, hope, confidence or anything else like that.

Edited April 25, 2019 by E-mc2

[todreaminblue]

There are literally thousands of Gods that have been identified and documented throughout the ages.

 

 

 

 

How did you come to your knowledge of God and what convinced you in your mind that you are following the right God? You mentioned a few different religions but many of them are opposed to each other, claiming not only to be the right way, but the only way.

 

i come from a long line of believers....its in my dna.....to believe...

 

here is where i wrote the different times god has spoken to me and about my ancestors...and where god has literally saved my life...but you would probably think im making it up or nutso so i just want to find out more about you and save my experiences for another post...

 

what do you believe in? why do you believe theres a right god and a wrong god...because you believe in what is documented and identified? so do you believe in the god that is in the bible...do you believe the bible is a book given of god.....deb.

Edited April 26, 2019 by todreaminblue