God's protection

[E-mc2]

i come from a long line of believers....its in my dna.....to believe...

You seemed pretty clear in your previous post that people act from their own free will. Having it in your DNA to believe doesn't seem very fair to me. What about the people who don't have spirituality in their DNA and don't believe? Would they be choosing from their free will or from their nature? How could you or a god fault them for not believing?

 

here is where i wrote the different times god has spoken to me and about my ancestors...and where god has literally saved my life...but you would probably think im making it up or nutso so i just want to find out more about you and save my experiences for another post...

I'm sure they're wonderful stories but I doubt they would change my mind. I sat in church for the better part of my life and heard about every miracle, testimony, dream, god speaking etc. Honestly it was that kind of nonsense that solidified my anti-religious beliefs.

 

what do you believe in? why do you believe theres a right god and a wrong god...because you believe in what is documented and identified?

My stance is that I'm willing to believe when I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That can be from demonstration or identification. It can also be from sound reasoning. Either way, my mind hasn't been satisfied yet.

 

so do you believe in the god that is in the bible...do you believe the bible is a book given of god.....deb.

Most of my life I did. I don't anymore.

But I'd like to stick with the original topic [if God is real and he answers prayer and protects his people shouldn't you statistically see it?]

Edited April 26, 2019 by E-mc2

[todreaminblue]

You seemed pretty clear in your previous post that people act from their own free will. Having it in your DNA to believe doesn't seem very fair to me. What about the people who don't have spirituality in their DNA and don't believe? Would they be choosing from their free will or from their nature? How could you or a god fault them for not believing?

 

ill clarify......i believe everybody's dna holds spiritual belief..because all humans have a spirit...true to you?..

 

having a supernal spirit differentiates us from pure animal instinct true or not true.....when i say i am hard wired to believe...my family history is extremely important to me.....and my great aunt who was a historian.....has documented my family and history

 

gk chesterton is one of my ancestors.....my mum was a sunday school teacher......and i have a martyrs last name as he is also my ancestor.....so...through history and blood i am surely hardwired to believe...as my spiritual self is connected to my family...thats pure science.....i am a product of family.....i believe my family started with god ...my heavenly father

 

I'm sure they're wonderful stories but I doubt they would change my mind. I sat in church for the better part of my life and heard about every miracle, testimony, dream, god speaking etc. Honestly it was that kind of nonsense that solidified my anti-religious beliefs.

 

i haven't even told you my stories and you are calling them nonsense...which is what i thought you would do ....we are however not in church....and for me i am trying to understand your views....and respect them.....even if i do not agree i would never call your experiences nonsense and i am really sorry your church ...solidified your doubts about the existence of god....and killed your faith...when was the last time you felt ....a higher power interacting in your life...did you ever have faith in god???....

 

 

My stance is that I'm willing to believe when I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That can be from demonstration or identification. It can also be from sound reasoning. Either way, my mind hasn't been satisfied yet.

 

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.With that chain of thought, faith is from within... in all your hopes its in the way you live your life,what you say,what you do and how you treat others..its not just in church....believing in god is in your very life.....that's why i say i am hard wired to believe ...to have faith.... i have ancestors and family who have lived the faith including a martyr who was burned alive for his faith....in my hopes...is the fact ...i will see them all again and they will love the way i have lived my life as i have loved knowing the way they lived their faith....

 

i believe everyone has a right to live by their faith alone.....and if people do live by faith they will leave the mortal sphere a better place.....if its faith in humanity which god created .....or faith in bettering the world through science or the arts or through pure love of anything.....which god created or anything else on this god given earth they would have been an awesome person....religious or not....i believe in respect.....

 

 

But I'd like to stick with the original topic [if God is real and he answers prayer and protects his people shouldn't you statistically see it?

 

i have a quote i remembered for you .....dont know who by maybe it's mine and i wrote it.... but here it is....

 

It's hard to be what you cant see and harder still to see what you can't be

 

If you want to feel god is real...you have to see from your heart.....and science says the heart is a muscle of flesh...so when people say follow your heart ......its the spirit dwelling inside you they speak of....not the flesh.....

 

i see god...hear god....feel god....with my heart...and that is my truth i share with you

 

i hope one day you can feel him again too...because he feels you..

 

as far as statistically speaking .....there are many non fiction books and documentaries about people who followed and do follow god ..what they have been through...and why they believe.....can you prove that they dont have their prayers answered...or with statistics show that they are not telling the truth...if you cant see miracles is it because you dont really want to see them?....life is a miracle in its entirety..the human body is a miracle...and like a thousand songs and written words have documented in lyrical or poetic form ...love...is the ultimate miracle....love is and always shall be as it was written....and proven to be....what humans need....and desire to have..science also supports this emotional and spirit driven theory of love being a human requirement to survive.........

 

i believe...god...is love...

so therefore my theory is humanity even athiests...has a need for god to exist...

 

im not the only one who believes this..

 

“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”

– “The Case for Complexity,” Where All Roads Lead

G.K Chesterton

 

smilin...my best friend by the way.....is an athiest....she says sometimes she forgets ....how religious i am.....that im a churchy....which is good...because that means i am living my faith.....

Edited April 26, 2019 by todreaminblue

[Ronni_W]

According to what you said if I pray to Jesus, Allah, Zeus, or whoever, it doesn't matter as long as I believe it and I'm sincere. I guess that would explain why every religion experiences miracles. Or perhaps none of them are. I go with the latter.

You're interpreting my words so that they fit in with what you already believe or want to believe.

 

I said that if you are deceived into your belief about who or what God is, then it will be acceptable to God if you pray based on that. You will be taken as spiritually immature...

...but, it is still on every person to develop and mature their own spiritual outlook...which I didn't go into because it wasn't relevant to the point that I was making,

on top of which I didn't know your level of genuine interest.

[Justanaverageguy]

I'm NOT talking about it positive thinking, happy thoughts, hope, confidence or anything else like that

 

Then to put it simply you are not talking about prayer

 

When I say prayer, I'm talking about petitioning a supreme powerful Being so that [he, she or it] would manipulate the natural processes so they become supernatural.

 

So now I need to be clear and say: this definition is only your personal understanding of what prayer is and its a very very limited form of divine interventionist prayer. But this limited form you have outlined doesn't actually line up with what Christianity teaches about the full definition of what prayer is. So your arguing against a straw man ..... your own personal conception not actually what the spiritual teaching says. I'm using Christianity here as you cited it specifically.

 

Your above example is most certainly a type of prayer .... and its the most powerful type. When God using his his supreme power intercedes on our behalf to bring into being something we have prayed for. Yes this is one form of prayer. But Christianity and Jesus didn't just teach the individual to get what they want by having someone else - God - do it. He said we as individuals have free will and similar but more limited version of this power to consciously will into reality around us through our thoughts, words and actions. He also said if we act in accordance with gods will helping others and following his laws then he will grant us more power to be able to excert this to do more of his will on earth. (AKA Jesus .... or the 12 disciples) Given the power of the spirit but using their own consciousness to heal people and do gods will.

 

Effectively the more power, energy and belief you put behind something - the more likely they are to happen. this is like one of the most critical parts of the Christian teaching on how to pray. You cannot take away belief and positive thinking from prayer as it is at its very core. Its exemplified in many parables such as peter walking on water - then sinking. Jesus calls him out and he begins to actually do it because he believes having seen Jesus do it ..... but then becomes afraid and the moment he doubts he can do it he sinks and starts drowning. there are literally a dozen other similar examples i could cite from the teaching.

 

I see it as all 4 treatments have the same healing result, not different. The headache went away. Thus, the logical conclusion would be it's uncertain why headaches go away until further knowledge is gained. If prayer works the same as a sugar pill then why would you think prayer worked?

 

Now your just being unscientific. this is actually tested and proven to have different healing outcomes ..... as they specifically use placebo and non treatment when testing medications used for pain relief to evaluate if it works. Medications like Asprin ibprophen and panadole as well as placebos all show significant, repeatable and measurable differences in the ability to heal pain. But we can move into larger more serious health issues where even things like cancer treatments, severe back injuries hell even things like regrowing hair show reliable and statistically proven improved healing outcomes from Placebo. that meaning - belief healing. Prayer = Belief in an outcome.

 

 

As per the O.P. everyone else said there was no scientific way to test if prayer works. You say there is, awesome, now I feel like we are getting somewhere. I believe 100% that if prayer DOES work it should be able to be demonstrated scientifically. Otherwise it just doesn't exist except in peoples minds. .

Yes absolutely I'm saying the full definition of prayer - as described in Christianity is absolutely testable and Im saying its already been shown through placebo. we just don't have any other studies that have been done taking this same phenomena into account outside medical healing where it is easily measurable. Now if your talking about the divine intervention instant miracle prayer were god uses his power - we can't test this with the scientific method ..... because god is a conscious being and we don't know when he is going to decide to give out grace. He doesn't always intercede. When we say jump .... he doesnt always agree to do so. But measuring the effects on peoples ability to change reality through belief - is testable and we already do it by accident mostly by accounting for the placebo effect in medical trials.

 

I am skeptical of placebo effect outcomes of real surgery on body parts that are actually broken. You'd have to show proof of the study before I would consider it

 

Its still quite early in this area as the whole fake surgery phenomena has only been discovered and proven in medicine in the last 5-6 years but now many studies are really looking at it and applying it to different surgeries - and many have already showed results. For a further example here is a report on 4 very common orthopedic surgeries commonly carried out for serious physical issues - Including crushed vertebrae - spinal fusion surgery - which whilst showing a clear and statistical improvement over having no surgery ..... actually shows zero difference from having a sham surgery when they simply cut you open but do nothing. the surgery itself does nothing .... except convince people they will get better.

 

https://www.painscience.com/biblio/four-orthopedic-surgeries-no-better-than-placebo.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27402957

 

the surgery is literally a clever "trick" .... which convinces the patient to believe they will get better. the orthepedic surgeons are basically priests .... tricking patients into praying - believing - they will heal. A lot of modern medicine is just snake oil .... but people believe in it so it works. I call it "belief crutches" .... an aid to help you believe just as a crutch helps you walk. Humanity has reached the tipping point where it just now really discovering what makes it all tick .... belief .... and is hopefully going to learn it doesnt need the crutches anymore.

 

And the truth shall set you free

 

Excerpt

RESULTS: This review includes six randomized controlled trials (RCTs) involving 277 subjects. All six studies were rated as very good on methodological quality. Heterogeneity across the studies, with respect to participants, interventions evaluated, and outcome measures used, prevented meta-analyses. Narrative synthesis of results, based on effect size, demonstrated that sham surgery in orthopedics was as effective as actual surgery in reducing pain and improving disability.

 

CONCLUSIONS: This review suggests that sham surgery has shown to be just as effective as actual surgery in reducing pain and disability

Edited April 29, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

I am skeptical of placebo effect outcomes of real surgery on body parts that are actually broken. You'd have to show proof of the study before I would consider it.

 

Some more examples of sham surgery result

https://www.smh.com.au/national/back-pain-try-some-placebo-surgery-20160224-gn1xna.html

 

Two of the studies put spine fusion surgery up against non-operative treatment alternatives: cognitive behavioural therapy in one study, and intensive physical rehabilitation in another. These studies found no significant differences in the outcomes between the operative and non-operative groups (except that the complication rate in the surgical group was higher). As usual, both groups showed improvement.

 

The point is that roughly the same proportion of patients in each group improved, by roughly the same amount. A third study concluded that the surgical group did better. Interestingly, the surgical group didn't do any better than in the other studies; the difference was that the non-operative group didn't get better at all. This is because the non-operative treatment was not dressed up as something that might work (that is, it wasn't a good placebo).

 

Interestingly, in the rare cases that physical therapies have been compared to sham treatments, there is no consistent difference in the results between real and sham exercise. One could reasonably conclude that if you do something (anything) that looks like it might work for back pain, is structured and has plausibility, about two thirds of the patients will get better, as for many of the placebo treatments already discussed.

 

All things are possible for he that believes.

 

You must have faith - to call forth things that are not as though they were.

 

And perhaps more then that a deeper understanding of what Jesus meant when he said to "have faith"

 

https://www.josephprince.org/blog/daily-grace-inspirations/call-it-forth

Edited April 30, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[E-mc2]

Originally Posted by E-mc2 View Post

I'm NOT talking about positive thinking, happy thoughts, hope, confidence or anything else like that

Then to put it simply you are not talking about prayer

 

You'll see below I was very specific in what type of prayer I was talking about. Praying to God.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by E-mc2 View Post

When I say prayer, I'm talking about petitioning a supreme powerful Being so that [he, she or it] would manipulate the natural processes so they become supernatural.

 

 

Your above example is most certainly a type of prayer .... and its the most powerful type. When God using his his supreme power intercedes on our behalf to bring into being something we have prayed for. Yes this is one form of prayer.

Yep, that's the one I'm talking about.

 

 

Now if your talking about the divine intervention instant miracle prayer were god uses his power - we can't test this with the scientific method ..... because god is a conscious being and we don't know when he is going to decide to give out grace. He doesn't always intercede. When we say jump .... he doesnt always agree to do so.

Looks like we're done here. You answered my question.

 

 

But measuring the effects on peoples ability to change reality through belief - is testable and we already do it by accident mostly by accounting for the placebo effect in medical trials.

If you want me to think that positive thinking has effects on our body, namely the ability for our bodies to heal themselves, then sure. I'll go with that.

[E-mc2]

I said that if you are deceived into your belief about who or what God is, then it will be acceptable to God if you pray based on that. You will be taken as spiritually immature...

 

I don't want to misunderstand you.

 

Let's say there is a God. And there is religion X and religion Y

 

Religion X is the right one.

 

Are all the people in religion Y deceived? Or, are they only deceived if the intention of the person who proselytized was to deceive?

[Justanaverageguy]

Originally Posted by E-mc2

If you want me to think that positive thinking has effects on our body, namely the ability for our bodies to heal themselves, then sure. I'll go with that.

 

That's not specifically what I was getting at - I was just using it as an example and evidence to show proof what Christian theology teaches about prayer. How this rule about belief or faith - shown scientifically through what happens with placebo's in medicine - also applies to more then just healing. It applies to everything within your reality. What you say, think and believe creates your reality. If you believe you are healing you will. If you strongly believe you will be successful in x\y\z way - you will be

 

If you want "gods protection" or to be able to analyse why some people seem to have it while others don't you need to understand this law - faith - along with his other ones on how to behave. Many claim to believe in God - but may lack faith, obedience or an understanding of how to use it. Your currently placing "faith" in cartoons helping stop your daughters nightmares and your belief in it (apart from your daughters) makes it an effective "placebo" .... which will help it to work. this is how most peoples faith works - requiring an external physical explanation for why.

 

Looks like we're done here. You answered my question

 

Sure - thanks for the discussion

Edited May 2, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Ronni_W]

Sorry for the very lengthy delay...I haven't logged in here for a couple of months.

 

Let's say there is a God. And there is religion X and religion Y

 

Religion X is the right one.

To me, every true religion has spiritual truth in it, so there isn't only one 'right' religion. (You can verify this for yourself by studying texts of all the major religions.)

 

We can as easily deceive ourselves about the existence of God and other matters of faith as others can deceive us about the same. To my understanding,

it is assessed based on our own intentions...for example, some people want to benefit from so-called 'miracles', but they're too lazy and don't want to be bothered to learn how to manifest them;

they'd rather just find somebody else to fix all their stuff for them. (The real self-deception being that they're powerless to heal themselves and fix their own lives.)

 

A different self-deception is what most Christians do: remain convinced that Jesus was some special case or even God Himself on Earth, and that's why he was able to demonstrate what he did.

These ones have all the excuses to not even skim through spiritual texts that actually do give the steps to eventually learn what Jesus knew, which enabled him to have dominion over the earth

so that he could perform instant healing and the like.

 

Yes, there are a lot of bogus materials and false claims out there...but sifting through the garbage to find the treasure is actually part of how we qualify ourselves to receive the further Teachings

and Instruction that we need, which is available through the esoteric texts of major religions (the same teachings, only given in different symbolism and metaphors).

[Osho]

Look at this on a smaller scale.

 

A flower doesn’t doubt it will grow. It does this naturally and continues to do it. Through storms overcrowding and even in very remarkable situations where it has just enough to grow but an equal amount of reason to not.

 

If this flower was told it was sick daily and watched daily with doubt and worry it would have that much less chance of surviving even with an over abundance of nutrients sunlight and water.

 

Ita not protection from rain that keeps this flower growing its a nature that does this. Or one could look at it as faith in a sense a flower doesn’t doubt it will grow. It just does it’s best to do so. Only when doubt and negative emotions are in its reality does it get sick and have issues. Much like your comparison to cancer and Christians.

 

Google Dr. Emoto and his water experiments. This goes along with positive affirmations and faith. Knowing something will be ok and affirming it or praying for it and having faith will bring about positive results. Even in a laboratory.

[E-mc2]

Yes, there are a lot of bogus materials and false claims out there...but sifting through the garbage to find the treasure is actually part of how we qualify ourselves to receive the further Teachings

and Instruction that we need, which is available through the esoteric texts of major religions (the same teachings, only given in different symbolism and metaphors).

 

Ask 100 different people the meaning of an esoteric text and you'll get 100 different answers.

[Trail Blazer]

Google the efficacy of prayer. There's been a lot of study into it. Asking people on here for their anecdotal claims is pointless. It has made for interesting reading, though. I applaud the very respectful discussion that has come about.

 

I have no doubt that prayer works for many people. The belief in a concept designed to yield positive outcomes is usually enough for there to be tangible benefits for the participant. The beleif of a connection to something much greater than oneself is empowering.

 

What you seek is proof, beyond reasonable doubt, that god divinely intervenes at precisely the right moment after one, or many individuals, petition god through prayer. You're never going to get that. God has never, say, regrown a missing limb, for example.

 

No miracle of god has ever happened which defies our current practices in medicine. If medicine cures someone, but the evidence of such has been convoluted by prayer, then the peron or persons praying will claim it as a miracle from god. Yet, if the sams person dies, it was "god's will" that he or she died, rather than prayer being rendered ineffectual.

 

I grew up a Catholic, however I do not believe there is a god. I attended a private Catholic school and studied the bible, attended mass regularly growing up. I was Baptized, I partook in my First Holy Communion and Confirmation. Even as a youngster, none of it really sat right with me. I was very curious, asked a lot of questions and never really received any satisfactory answers.

 

So, like you, I'm a non-believer. Except I'll go on further and say that I'm an atheist. Scary to admit, huh? Well, depending on what part of the world you're from. I'm just grateful I live in one of the most secular states of this country. It's nice to know that from where I'm from, I can find one person out of every three who doesn't believe the world was created in seven days only 6,000 years ago.

[Rayce]

I want to offer up a suggestion for the unbeliever....

 

Spend some time watching shows like the 700 club where you are exposed to actual testimonies of people who have miracles happen in their lives. I myself am able to see the miracles that are all around us.

 

Wishing all peace....

[mark clemson]

Hmm. If you're looking for miracles that can't be attributed to coincidence, then it seems you're looking specifically for things that violate the laws of physics. Anything else could be attributed reasonably to coincidence, no?

 

But if the Deity created the laws of physics, why would he wish to do something that breaks those rules. Presumably to accomplish His goals (assuming He has some) he can just "bend" the rules via things that appear to be coincidence. Why would we assume, particularly for an all-powerful being, that there's a need to break them to accomplish things?

 

As for lower incidences of "bad things" and higher incidences of "good things" happening to religious people, well, in the larger scope of things we're ALL transitory. We all get destroyed eventually and this almost always is no fun. This applies to all, and of course the Deity knows this. So, why would we expect that he shield us from the forces that are bound to impact us sooner or later anyhow? It's merciful, and of course most people would prefer less suffering/more (subjective) good in their lives, BUT it's also true that all of that is just forestalling the inevitable. It also creates a problem of having to intervene all the time in fairness rather than letting the universe He created run its course.

 

If you believe, then it's not entirely crazy to believe that perhaps God intervenes. However, it's an assumption that he would intervene more for "his people". Perhaps he only does so only with the greater total good of humanity in mind, rather than "playing favorites"? And perhaps he doesn't normally intervene in a way that violates physics?

[major_merrick]

I can't really offer proof of God's protection or an assurance that He will reliably intervene. But I can mention some things I've witnessed over the years (even before I really believed).

 

I've seen my husband get shot, bleed to death, and get brought back to life when my cousin prayed (I'll admit, a blood transfusion and CPR helped.) I've seen my husband walk away from a car wreck that almost certainly should have killed him. One of my husband's friends drove straight through a tornado and survived as he crouched low and prayed. I've seen a lady in our community healed of an inoperable tumor without medical intervention. I've gone from being infertile to having three children! I've seen my husband pray over his children when they are sick, and they get better. And most recently, my husband was injured at work. He was healed that evening through prayer without even a scar, and the "before and after" was extremely obvious to those who witnessed it.

 

I can't say that God will always protect or intervene. We still deal with the world, our own sins, and the malevolence of Satan. Most of the time God expects His people to put in the hard work, protect each other, and do acts of service. But when God does intervene, He does it with a purpose: That you might take notice and believe. His biggest acts are done to save the lost, enlighten the ignorant, and strengthen the faith of His people.

[LivingWaterPlease]

E-mc2, if you want to believe in God or are curious about Him, tell Him you want Him to reveal Himself to you. When He answers your prayer, don't chalk it up to a coincidence. Grab hold of it, continue talking with Him, and He will reveal more to you.

 

The answer to prayer that will cause you to believe, is the prayer He answers for you.

 

But, long story short, no one besides God can answer your questions or prove He exists.

Edited October 18, 2019 by LivingWaterPlease

[salparadise]

If you're looking to strengthen faith and belief, best to stay away from these logical-rational tests and stick with magical thinking so that anything is possible, and everything happens for a reason. I don't see any point in these mental exercises unless you just discovered rational thinking this week and got all confused.

Edited October 18, 2019 by salparadise

[major_merrick]

I don't see it as magical thinking. I am a fan of logic and reason, which is why faith jas been difficult for me. But what happens in your life when you see something that is impossible to explain rationally?

[LivingWaterPlease]

If you're looking to strengthen faith and belief, best to stay away from these logical-rational tests and stick with magical thinking so that anything is possible, and everything happens for a reason. I don't see any point in these mental exercises unless you just discovered rational thinking this week and got all confused.

 

This type of vague thinking and talking (writing) is not Biblical.

 

Magical is anti-God and spoken against in scripture.

[mark clemson]

LWP, if you don't mind could you cite the specific (Bible, I assume) passages that state this?

 

I am curious as to what they say, the reason being that it appears (to me) that the Bible and Christianity generally are absolutely full of magic. From the parting of the Red Sea and the plagues sent against Egypt, to the miraculous works of Jesus, the some of the workings of Paul (second, who was Saul) as well as his conversion.

 

There's also all the miracles of the Catholic saints as well other, spontaneous ones (e.g. Fatima). Furthermore when people pray for something, aren't they essentially performing magic by requesting divine intervention on the part of the Deity (or in some cases saints or prophets)? Then there is faith healing and similar acts. Furthermore it seems that Catholic priests perform magic (transubstantiation) regularly at Mass.

 

Given all of that, I'm curious as to where it's forbidden and exactly what is/isn't (supposedly) allowed. In fairness, I'll point out that I'm not overly convinced/accepting of the Bible as actual "final word" of the Deity. However, this particular request is mostly out of curiosity.

 

Thanks!

[LivingWaterPlease]

Thanks for your valid question and comments, Mark! I've found many are interested in such things, myself included.

 

I'm going to compile some of the many scriptural texts forbidding magic, sorcery, etc., for you. Also, the texts will tell of some of the consequences to those who were involved, or who become involved, in such things.

 

You're right that there are many miracles recorded in the Bible.

 

However, the Bible teaches there are two sources of power exhibited in the miracles it records, that of God and that of satan (who was once known as Lucifer, the most honored angel in heaven until he rebelled and was cast out of heaven), the arch enemy of God. The use of magic is attributed to satan.

The Bible always makes it clear who is the power behind the miracle cited, God or satan. And God clearly instructs that acts of magic are not from Him, but from satan.

 

The Bible is also clear as to how we can tell which people are inviting the power of God to work miracles and which people are invoking forbidden satanic magical powers to perform supernatural works. God does not want us to be deceived by those who may use His name to perform wickedness.

 

Matthew 7 beginning in verse 21 records, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day (the day of the second coming of Christ in the clouds to the earth, the first coming is when He came as a baby in Bethlehem in a manger), ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.” (This is from the New American Standard Bible, some other versions say, "You who practice iniquity." Lawlessness and iniquity are regarded the same way.)

 

Isaiah 8:20 says, "To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them." (In the Bible light represents truth and darkness represents evil. Jesus Christ says, "I am the Light of the world." He also says, "I am the way, the truth and the life.")

 

We really can't know which power is at work in the supernatural unless we know what the law and the testimony are. But, if we study the Bible to learn what the law and testimony are (they are not hard to find, they are not hidden) then we can clearly identify whether supernatural works are of God or satan.

 

There are many so-called religious people who are performing supernatural deeds in the name of Christ who are actually working by the power of satan. Again the Bible tells us how to identify the true power behind the deeds.

 

You state that you don't believe the Bible to be the authority to live by but are curious. Fair enough! I do believe it, and have chosen it, to be the authority of my life but I know many people that I care for who haven't. Sometimes it's just a matter of not having been exposed to the power and beauty therein.

 

OR sometimes it's because those who profess to be Christians don't represent the love and beauty of Jesus Christ. So this turns folks away from wanting anything to do with the Bible. I believe this happens a lot.

 

I am sure I have been guilty of this but God has the miraculous power and ability of bringing a person into kindness if a person will study the Bible and learn to know Jesus Christ, the source of Goodness, as a personal friend.

 

I will get the texts together for you!

[Justanaverageguy]

I am curious as to what they say, the reason being that it appears (to me) that the Bible and Christianity generally are absolutely full of magic. From the parting of the Red Sea and the plagues sent against Egypt, to the miraculous works of Jesus, the some of the workings of Paul (second, who was Saul) as well as his conversion.

 

I guess it depends on how you differentiate between "magic" and "miracles". Generally speaking God is the ultimate power in the universe and is able to bend reality to his will. Anything that comes from his power is considered a miracle and will inevitably be for the good of humanity and upholding of his laws.

 

Magic on the other hand is essentially calling on lower fallen beings who may have some very limited spiritual powers but ultimately are corrupt beings and by getting into bed with them you may seen some short term gain followed by long term pain. Essentially the difference is the "source" and the eventual "outcome". Miracles worked by god result in long term benefit. Magic performed by fallen beings is more bluff and show that may look good initially will inevitably end badly and is primarily done to entice someone into connection with their corrupt spirit.

 

Furthermore it seems that Catholic priests perform magic (transubstantiation) regularly at Mass.

 

Well it really depends on how you understand this ritual. You either believe and understand spirit - or you don't believe. If you believe and understand spirit then the priest isn't really "doing anything". He is simply calling on the spirit of Jesus to join the "supper" and in doing so Jesus spiritual energy is present and transferred onto the bread and wine. It becomes spiritual medicine because its imbued with his energy.

 

The exact same ritual is performed with saints, holy men and God in the eastern spiritual traditions - the ritual is called Prasad. You bring a vegetarian offering. You place it at the feet of the saint. Pray with him - the saint blesses it - then you consume the food which has been imbued with the saints essence to receive the spiritual benefits. Literally an identical ritual. They are blessing the food with their essence so we become connected to their energy and way of being. The thing you have to be sure of - is the spiritual nature of the person / spirit who is blessing the food. By performing this ritual you are entering into "communion" with them. That meaning combining / sharing of energy So as with the Magic vs Miracle ..... the source matters.

 

https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/4989/prasad

Edited October 19, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Trail Blazer]

I want to offer up a suggestion for the unbeliever....

 

Spend some time watching shows like the 700 club where you are exposed to actual testimonies of people who have miracles happen in their lives. I myself am able to see the miracles that are all around us.

 

Wishing all peace....

With all due respect, if watching a show like that was going to be the difference between me believing and not believing, then one of the thousand other less than compelling anecdotes I've heard from people in my life would have already seen me converted a long time ago.

 

As for these "miracles" you see around us, would you care to elaborate on what they are? Because I see so many amazing things around me on a daily basis, none of which are miracles, though.

[Rayce]

It was only a suggestion... I love testimonies… and hearing how God does wonderful things in other peoples lives. He has done wonderful things in my life... like keep me alive when some ******* had his hands around my throat and was choking the life out of me... My miracle was the passer by on the street that saw what was going on inside my house and called the police.

 

Now if I can get on the freeway with a wide open patch of no traffic in a bumper to bumper situation... I call a mini miracle... of God just helping to lower the stress in my life... but I am sure you will laugh that off.

 

Peace....

[Trail Blazer]

It was only a suggestion... I love testimonies… and hearing how God does wonderful things in other peoples lives. He has done wonderful things in my life... like keep me alive when some ******* had his hands around my throat and was choking the life out of me... My miracle was the passer by on the street that saw what was going on inside my house and called the police.

 

Now if I can get on the freeway with a wide open patch of no traffic in a bumper to bumper situation... I call a mini miracle... of God just helping to lower the stress in my life... but I am sure you will laugh that off.

 

Peace....

 

That would have been a horrible and traumatic experience. I'm sorry that you had to experience that and I hope the individual was brought to justice. However, miracle?

 

How was it in any way a miracle? It was lucky, but by miracle, you mean to suggest that only through divine intervention of god, that the person was there to witness it in the first place?

 

If you asked the individual why they happened to be walking past at precisely the right time to witness what had happen, they would have a perfectly logical explanation. They wouldn't say that they had an unexplained compulsion to just walk that street at that moment in time.

 

Since god apparently gives everyone free will, it's impossible then for god to alter an individual's destiny, ever so slightly through divine intervention, whilst still claiming that we do in fact have complete autonomy over our destiny.