God's protection

[Rayce]

The good thing is that my faith does not require me to prove anything... only to believe.

 

That was just one of many traumatic experiences I have survived. I count it as a miracle that I have lived through several attempts at my life.

 

Wishing you peace....

[mark clemson]

Think this is going back to the idea that any "act" of the Deity that doesn't involve violating the laws of physics can be interpreted as coincidence. Even some rather unusual and rare combinations of events which might subjectively seem a miracle might be interpreted as "just coincidence". For example a very ill man's cancer goes into remission after praying. Well, it's possible to have spontaneous remissions with or without prayer. Or an infant who survives a tornado. Miracle or just "lucky"?

 

Even events which would be miracles/violating physics if taken at face value can be explained IF one wishes to. For example multiple people seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary. Miracle or power of suggestion/mass hysteria.

[Trail Blazer]

The good thing is that my faith does not require me to prove anything... only to believe.

 

That was just one of many traumatic experiences I have survived. I count it as a miracle that I have lived through several attempts at my life.

 

Wishing you peace....

Anything that requires an individual to believe, without question and with no tangible proof at all over the veracity of it's claims, is not something that I see as good at all.

 

Religion proposes an absolutist view, which then has a flow-on effect of closing a person's mind to alternative (read: scientific) theories about the world and indeed the universe.

[Trail Blazer]

Think this is going back to the idea that any "act" of the Deity that doesn't involve violating the laws of physics can be interpreted as coincidence. Even some rather unusual and rare combinations of events which might subjectively seem a miracle might be interpreted as "just coincidence". For example a very ill man's cancer goes into remission after praying. Well, it's possible to have spontaneous remissions with or without prayer. Or an infant who survives a tornado. Miracle or just "lucky"?

 

Even events which would be miracles/violating physics if taken at face value can be explained IF one wishes to. For example multiple people seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary. Miracle or power of suggestion/mass hysteria.

Yes, well, to anyone with an agenda, any correlation will automatically imply a causation which fits into the narrative.

[Justanaverageguy]

Yes, well, to anyone with an agenda, any correlation will automatically imply a causation which fits into the narrative.

 

I guess it depends also on what you consider proof. Most times "interventions" from god/dieity involve spiritual healing. Transformation of mental emotional trauma and suffering of an individual.

 

To use a well known example someone like Eckhart Tolle a famous modern spiritual teacher - who was formerly just an average guy who was so riddled with deep depression and anxiety he had decided he couldn't take it anymore so decided to end his life .... Before he could actually cary out the action to kill himself he had a spontaneous spiritual awakening - a profound sense of love, bliss and peace descended on him and his entire life was transformed in an instant.

 

This is generally how most miracles from god work - they transform a persons state of being from the inside .... Not usually the outside. The outside changes come later as a result of the inner change.

 

The only way to truly understand these interventions is to observe the sudden and complete change in the individual who had the spiritual experience - which sceptics won't consider as proof.

 

Going from a everyday person working an everyday Job who can barely function and is on the point of suicide to ecstatic bliss and almost instantly became the most prolific and we'll know spiritual teacher in the last 30 years isn't considered evidence. You can't put that in a double blind study so .... Apparently it doesn't count.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Trail Blazer]

I guess it depends also on what you consider proof. Most times "interventions" from god/dieity involve spiritual healing. Transformation of mental emotional trauma and suffering of an individual.

 

Why is it that anything that has yet to be proven by science must automatically be attributed to "god" or a higher spiritual being?

 

Science doesn't just know all the answers to our universe, but it has certainly made a lot of headway. When one attributes to god what science hasn't yet proven, it's called a god-of-the-gaps fallacy.

 

I can't comment on the individual in question's particular circumstances. I can only speculate that he was suffering from situational depression, was on the brink of suicide and then something triggered within his brain to change his outlook. Like a survival mechanism fron the sub-conscious.

[salparadise]

This type of vague thinking and talking (writing) is not Biblical. Magical is anti-God and spoken against in scripture.

 

Vague thinking eh? Not Biblical?

 

I wasn't trying to be Biblical, and certainly don't accept that as the gold standard correctness.

 

When I say magical thinking, I'm not talking about "Magic" in the same sense as you. I mean simply believing the unbelievable. The opposite of rational.

 

Just for clarity, do you believe that everything in the Bible is literally true?

[mark clemson]

Yes, well, to anyone with an agenda, any correlation will automatically imply a causation which fits into the narrative.

 

That is true. The converse is also true. Perhaps it's not an agenda, but it drives interpretation just the same. If I already "know" that God doesn't exist, then inexplicable events must be due to coincidence. It can't be anything else. I can even create a new concept, such as mass suggestion, to account for seemingly inexplicable events like Fatima or similar phenomenon instead of taking the descriptions from the people involved at their face value.

[Rayce]

Religion proposes an absolutist view, which then has a flow-on effect of closing a person's mind to alternative (read: scientific) theories about the world and indeed the universe.

 

You mistake my belief in faith to some sort of religion… I don't believe in organized religion. My faith comes from within me... as a personal relationship with God... one that I have had for almost 50 years. In those 50 years I have seen many wonderous things that defy "coincidence" so it is really hard for me to think any other way. My mind is very much "open". IMO my belief in Christ does not conflict with scientific theories. In fact I think many scientific theories support my belief in God.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Mark Clemson, sorry to be so late getting back with you! Has been a lot going on this weekend here. I have some texts for you and some comments, though. I really wanted to take more time for comments but it may be just as well to keep it simple.

 

I believe you'd mentioned the miracles of the Red Sea and all God did for the Israelites. Interestingly, at one point God was performing miracles through Moses and Aaron, leaders of His chosen people, while Pharaoh, a pagan ruler had his magician's performing in direct correlation/competition to the miracles of God. God would perform through Moses and Aaron, the magicians would perform kind of in answer to the miracles of God! But, the miracles God performed would overwhelm the magicians' supernatural works until they could no longer perform the supernatural, but God continued on with His miracles.

 

This scenario is recorded in Exodus 7-9, and is interesting to read about. I'm not going to comment on it here as it's rather lengthy but if you're interested you may want to read it yourself.

 

Here's a one-text-declaration from God. Ezekiel 13:20 says, "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.”

 

And Acts 8:9-11, 13:6-8, and 19:19 also address situations where magicians were operating and the results thereof.

 

There are lots more texts that are against magic and that show the supernatural realm is powered by both God and satan. However, God is always victorious over satan's powers, in the Bible and in this day.

 

You can do an internet search about texts that address magic in the Bible and come up with quite a few links that list texts about magic, too, if you want to.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Vague thinking eh? Not Biblical?

 

I wasn't trying to be Biblical, and certainly don't accept that as the gold standard correctness.

 

When I say magical thinking, I'm not talking about "Magic" in the same sense as you. I mean simply believing the unbelievable. The opposite of rational.

 

Just for clarity, do you believe that everything in the Bible is literally true?

 

No problem, Sal! I didn't think you were trying to be Biblical!

 

I don't believe everything in the Bible is literal.

 

The Bible itself makes it clear that some things in it are literal and that some things are not literal.

 

However, I do believe the Bible is the true authority for life.

[Justanaverageguy]

Why is it that anything that has yet to be proven by science must automatically be attributed to "god" or a higher spiritual being?

 

So I never said anything or everything not proven by science must be attributed to a higher power That's a bit of a strawman response.

 

I was talking about very specific circumstances - which follow a repeated pattern of healing and individual transformation that have been reported by numerous people over a very long course of time and the people who experience these things typical attribute it to a higher power and then change their life, develop and deep and personal relationship with God and then very often dedicate their lives to helping others (as the person in my example did). I could offer other examples which follow this same specific pattern.

 

I can't comment on the individual in question's particular circumstances. I can only speculate that he was suffering from situational depression, was on the brink of suicide and then something triggered within his brain to change his outlook. Like a survival mechanism fron the sub-conscious.

 

Its true - I guess this could be a possibility - but it seems unlikely to me that the body has the ability to completely transform a person as instantaneously and powerfully as this without outside assistance. This - outside assistance - if you are a serious scientist - is another possibility you have to give serious consideration to and not simply dismiss out of hand.

 

Wouldn't you agree ?

Edited October 21, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[mark clemson]

@LWP - appreciate it! Will take a look at some of the passages you mention (I have a Gideon's bible which I read in full several years ago but of course I don't remember all the details).

[Rayce]

Thanks to the internet most of the bible sites will provide text in any version you want. Makes bible reading very nice....

[Trail Blazer]

I was talking about very specific circumstances - which follow a repeated pattern of healing and individual transformation that have been reported by numerous people over a very long course of time and the people who experience these things typical attribute it to a higher power and then change their life, develop and deep and personal relationship with God and then very often dedicate their lives to helping others (as the person in my example did). I could offer other examples which follow this same specific pattern.

It's irrelevant what all those people attribute their experiences to. They are undoubtedly suffering from a delusion of some sort. It doesn't matter if it's one person or a million people. A delusion is still a delusion.

 

It's true - I guess this could be a possibility - but it seems unlikely to me that the body has the ability to completely transform a person as instantaneously and powerfully as this without outside assistance. This - outside assistance - if you are a serious scientist - is another possibility you have to give serious consideration to and not simply dismiss out of hand.

 

Wouldn't you agree ?

"Outside assistence"? Sure, when science proves the existence of this outside assistance, then we can talk. As far as I'm concerned, Eckhart Tolle just talks out of his a$$ and contradicts himself a lot. He passes off his beliefs as fact (higher consciousness) when in reality he's just a cashed-up, wannabe western Dalai Lama.

[Trail Blazer]

You mistake my belief in faith to some sort of religion… I don't believe in organized religion. My faith comes from within me... as a personal relationship with God... one that I have had for almost 50 years. In those 50 years I have seen many wonderous things that defy "coincidence" so it is really hard for me to think any other way. My mind is very much "open". IMO my belief in Christ does not conflict with scientific theories. In fact I think many scientific theories support my belief in God.

Please explain how that works? Christianity is the literal definition of organized religion.

[Rayce]

It's simple really... I believe in the teachings of Christ which are documented very well in the Bible.

[Trail Blazer]

It's simple really... I believe in the teachings of Christ which are documented very well in the Bible.

That's not simple at all. Your statement is completely contradictory.

 

You cannot claim on one hand to not believe in organized religion, yet on the other hand say you believe in the teachings of Christ in the bible.

 

You are a Christian if you follow his teachings in the bible, therefore you cannot be someone who purports to be a non-believer of organized religion.

[Justanaverageguy]

"Outside assistence"? Sure, when science proves the existence of this outside assistance, then we can talk.

 

But then your own explanation hasn't been proven by science either .... It requires just as much "magical thinking" and assumptions as the alternative. You claim you need scientific proof .... but then don't seem to follow the method yourself. Your own explanation can be thrown out without proof - but everyone else is automatically wrong because science hasn't proven it. Doesn't really make any sense.

 

Science - real science - is about observation and investigation. Here is another example of a similar experience world heavy weight champion Tyson Fury .....

 

You could stack these examples through the roof there are too many of them to count I'm just using a few well known ones from famous people.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[Rayce]

Maybe our definition of "organized religion" is different. Yes my core belief is Christianity but I do not belong to a church nor do I attend a church.

[Trail Blazer]

But then your own explanation hasn't been proven by science either .... It requires just as much "magical thinking" and assumptions as the alternative. You claim you need scientific proof .... but then don't seem to follow the method yourself. Your own explanation can be thrown out without proof - but everyone else is automatically wrong because science hasn't proven it. Doesn't really make any sense.

 

Science - real science - is about observation and investigation. Here is another example of a similar experience world heavy weight champion Tyson Fury .....

 

You could stack these examples through the roof there are too many of them to count I'm just using a few well known ones from famous people.

Sorry, what was my explanation again? My explanation for what?

[Trail Blazer]

Maybe our definition of "organized religion" is different. Yes my core belief is Christianity but I do not belong to a church nor do I attend a church.

You have an inherent misunderstanding of what an organized religion is. You beleive in an organized religion, Christianity. It doesn't matter how active you are in the church side of things.

 

That's besides the point anyway...

 

The actual point was that religion cultivates an absolutist mindset. You have faith and your faith is unwavering. You absolutely believe in god, and in the Christian teaching.

 

Do you concede that there is a real possibility that your religion may not be the right one? I mean, Muslims, Jews, Hindus... you name it, they're just as certain that their religion is the right one. What makes you so certain yours is?

 

If you are absolutely, unshakably certain that Christianity is correct, then how do yoi reconcile with people from faiths across the world, who all claim to have a personal relationship with their god? They claim to have seen miracles that Allah or whichever god they believe in has performed.

 

If you concede that there's a possibility that your religion is wrong, then your staunch faith is severely unfounded, as is your "personal relationship" with god. If, however, you cannot fathom that there's any other "right way" other than Christianity, then you can't claim that you're not an absolutist in your views.

[Justanaverageguy]

Sorry, what was my explanation again? My explanation for what?

 

Why is it that anything that has yet to be proven by science must automatically be attributed to "god" or a higher spiritual being? I can only speculate that he was suffering from situational depression, was on the brink of suicide and then something triggered within his brain to change his outlook. Like a survival mechanism from the sub-conscious.

 

 

So in this section here you immediately dismiss one idea on the grounds it hasn't been proven scientifically then immediately suggest one of your own which also has zero scientific basis. You position seems to be - Science will prove it .... as long as it fits into the very very tiny specific band of possibilities I allow science to consider or investigate.

 

Maybe our definition of "organized religion" is different. Yes my core belief is Christianity but I do not belong to a church nor do I attend a church.

I define myself primarily the same ... though I do still attend church sporadically depending on where I am. But primarily I prefer a more personal approach. I read the teachings - but don't really connect with the overly structured, ritualized organized religion aspects. So prefer something more simple and authentic. A few people meeting, reading passages, talking, singing. For me its mostly the large size of churches often makes them seem very impersonal - and the rigid dated structure and repetitive recitation of lines makes it feel .... almost robotic and unfeeling. Its like going through the motions. Prefer something more dynamic which gets you in touch with the spirit and is still true to the teaching. I also do yoga for my own health and well being and connect with the yogic idea of Bhakti - meaning loving devotion - as a way to connect to God. It has to be authentic and come from the heart - be a real feeling and not just words.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Justanaverageguy

[mark clemson]

JAAG, you might try Quaker (Religious Society of Friends) meetings sometime if you haven't already. Just be aware some of them are very (very) left wing in their political thinking. (The whole "religious belief/experience gets filtered through our brain" thing.)

 

It's like meditative prayer punctuated with statements or sometimes questions and then responses. Not a huge group and, while structured, the structuring is pretty minimal. If/when you feel "inspired" to say something during prayer you are generally encouraged to share it.

[Trail Blazer]

So in this section here you immediately dismiss one idea on the grounds it hasn't been proven scientifically then immediately suggest one of your own which also has zero scientific basis. You position seems to be - Science will prove it .... as long as it fits into the very very tiny specific band of possibilities I allow science to consider or investigate.

You're kidding, right? What a ridiculously false equivalence. I can't explain what's going on in someone else's head when they're most likely experiencing some sort of delusion. Like I said, I can only speculate.

 

Science has many theories on what causes delusions. The brain is an extremely complex organ. If there's a disruption in the brain's neurotransmitters, for example, it could result in any number of observable changes in one's behavior due to their altered cognitive function.