God's protection

[LivingWaterPlease]

JAAG, you might try Quaker (Religious Society of Friends) meetings sometime if you haven't already. Just be aware some of them are very (very) left wing in their political thinking. (The whole "religious belief/experience gets filtered through our brain" thing.)

 

It's like meditative prayer punctuated with statements or sometimes questions and then responses. Not a huge group and, while structured, the structuring is pretty minimal. If/when you feel "inspired" to say something during prayer you are generally encouraged to share it.

 

Interesting information, MC! Thanks for sharing.

 

IMO, there is a general gravitating toward unstructured group worship (not that it's for everyone) among Christians in the country I live in.

 

I attend a medium-sized church (about 200-250 each week) and like worshiping with a group once a week but I'd prefer to worship with a smaller group with less structure.

 

I like the idea of folks being able to speak up when they have a thought to share, rather than folks sitting in a pew being a part of liturgical and/or ritualistic traditional worship styles.

 

I also enjoy worshiping God every day, though, through prayer and reading of scripture at home.

[Rayce]

It is much too complicated for my pee brain... maybe it all comes down to the lost continuant of MU. I love comparative studying… because really no one really knows which is the "right" one or the "wrong" one. Christianity is what keeps me from completely giving up and helps me get through everyday. If I was raised in the Middle East then I most likely would embrace a totally different belief system.

[Trail Blazer]

You position seems to be - Science will prove it .... as long as it fits into the very very tiny specific band of possibilities I allow science to consider or investigate.

I don't mandate what science investigates. That's absurd.

[Trail Blazer]

It is much too complicated for my pee brain... maybe it all comes down to the lost continuant of MU. I love comparative studying… because really no one really knows which is the "right" one or the "wrong" one. Christianity is what keeps me from completely giving up and helps me get through everyday. If I was raised in the Middle East then I most likely would embrace a totally different belief system.

Wow. That's a staggering admission. I proposed this exact question in the other thread. What you are essentially saying here is that you are suffering from religious indoctrination.

 

Doesn't that at all concern you?

[Rayce]

That maybe true... nope I am not concerned at all. There are many rooms in God's house.. we all don't fit in a box.

[mark clemson]

Think that for some folks religious indoctrination becomes a major matter that impacts their life, for others, while it colors their views/interpretations, it isn't nearly as strict a set of blinders. It's much more like a cultural background. There are many atheists, agnostics, and only lightly religious people who went through religious indoctrination at some point in their lives.

 

So, maybe it's less of big deal depending on how one reacts? I for one went to a Unitarian church, and definitely that viewpoint is part of how I see things, but I wouldn't say it dictates all my thoughts.

 

None of us are blank slates after only a few years of schooling. It's just how we react.

[Timshel]

JAAG, you might try Quaker (Religious Society of Friends) meetings sometime if you haven't already. Just be aware some of them are very (very) left wing in their political thinking. (The whole "religious belief/experience gets filtered through our brain" thing.)

 

It's like meditative prayer punctuated with statements or sometimes questions and then responses. Not a huge group and, while structured, the structuring is pretty minimal. If/when you feel "inspired" to say something during prayer you are generally encouraged to share it.

 

 

How did I miss this. I went to a Earlham a looong time ago and only the beginning of several other educational institutions.

Quaker was a very good place for me after being raised as a southern Methodist.

[E-mc2]

That maybe true... nope I am not concerned at all. There are many rooms in God's house.. we all don't fit in a box.

 

Then what must I do to be saved? Let's not F-around here. This is my soul we are talking about. If it's ok to believe in christianity, judaism, or islam because there are many rooms in god's house then why bother? I'll form my own religion that will be much more loving and tolerant to all individuals. Right? I'll call it E-mc2ism. Best part is, nobody can refute it because you only need to believe in faith.

Edited October 21, 2019 by E-mc2

[Rayce]

Read the New Testament. I just googled this off the internet...

 

There are 4 simple steps on how to get saved:

Recognize that you are a sinner. (Romans 3:10, 23) “There is no one righteous, not even one… for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

 

Recognize that Jesus died on the cross for you. (1 Peter 3:18) “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.”

 

Repent of your sins. (Acts 3:19 NIV) “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord”

 

Receive Jesus as you Savior. (Romans 10:9-10) “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”

Edited October 22, 2019 by Rayce

[Trail Blazer]

That maybe true... nope I am not concerned at all. There are many rooms in God's house.. we all don't fit in a box.

But what if there is no "God's house?" That's exactly what indoctrination does to people. It makes them believe in things which would otherwise be patently absured.

 

If you have had has religious doctine presented to you as fact before you reached the age of reason, and you blindly follow without question this doctrine that has been presented to you, then you've beeb indoctrinated. Your mind is closed to the possibility that what you believe is potentially built upon the foundations of nonsense.

 

What would you rather hear about in your everyday life; comfortable lies or uncomfortable truths?

[E-mc2]

Wow. That's a staggering admission. I proposed this exact question in the other thread. What you are essentially saying here is that you are suffering from religious indoctrination. Doesn't that at all concern you?

 

That maybe true... nope I am not concerned at all. There are many rooms in God's house.. we all don't fit in a box.

 

Rayce, you responded to the question of: what if someone has never heard of jesus. You're response was, that all religions are the same in the end.

 

Read the New Testament. I just googled this off the internet.......There are 4 simple steps on how to get saved:...........Recognize that Jesus died on the cross for you.

 

Rayce, you just said that it doesn't matter if you are a christian or any other religion because all religions lead to the same end. I then asked you what do I have to do in order to be saved and you gave me the christian religion version. Do you see the problem here and why it is so frustrating for us agnostics and atheist to have conversations about this? How do I need jesus but if I believe something else that's ok too? I mean WTH bro...

Edited October 22, 2019 by E-mc2

[Trail Blazer]

Then what must I do to be saved? Let's not F-around here. This is my soul we are talking about. If it's ok to believe in christianity, judaism, or islam because there are many rooms in god's house then why bother? I'll form my own religion that will be much more loving and tolerant to all individuals. Right? I'll call it E-mc2ism. Best part is, nobody can refute it because you only need to believe in faith.

Exactly.

 

As for your religious proposal, I like the sound of it. I would definitely promote equality, right? I mean, it's built on the very foundations of mass and energy being equivalent, not showing favor to either one!

[Rayce]

If you have had has religious doctine presented to you as fact before you reached the age of reason, and you blindly follow without question this doctrine that has been presented to you, then you've beeb indoctrinated. Your mind is closed to the possibility that what you believe is potentially built upon the foundations of nonsense.

 

Thank you for this opportunity....

 

Before I reached the age of reason I was presented as fact several different views. Hold on while I try to list them out because they really get me sometimes.

 

Frist I found Jesus and my belief when I was 9 years old at a vacation bible school. Around that time my parents sent me to a private catholic school which I attend for 7 years... Because my dad was a racist jerk that wanted me to attend school with only white kids. The all girl school was just too much for me and I begged to go to public school. lol... Anyway... That's me... that is what my heart latched onto... Jesus Christ and nothing else mattered. I was persecuted at home for my belief. My family is not Christian. When I wanted to go to church on Sunday my dad the atheist laughed and called me names. My mother was heavy into "New Age". My grandmother was into Christian Science. I use to do seances with both my mother and grandmother as a bible study. We would try to contact our dead relatives. lol... They said they belonged to something called the White Brotherhood. lol... crazy nonsense but I did witness some pretty creepy things. lol... My grandfather, great grandfather and great-great grandfathers were all high level Free Masonry. My great grandmothers were Rosicrucianism. I inherited a fabulous library from them all. lol... but I still cling to my bible and my Christian beliefs.

 

I come from a crazy family... so maybe it is all nonsense... but if I didn't have my beliefs to cling too I would of killed myself already.

[Trail Blazer]

Thank you for this opportunity....

 

I come from a crazy family... so maybe it is all nonsense... but if I didn't have my beliefs to cling too I would of killed myself already.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. I understand that religion has a positive effect on the lives of millions of people (read: adults) every day.

 

I can also say that Father Christmas, Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy also affect children in a positive way.

 

Fairytales and folklore make great bedtime stories for children. Indulging in a fantasy tale and embracing the mysticism around the plot and its characters is not something we want to deny children the opportunity of experiencing.

 

We are more than happy for children to embrace fairytales as the joy derived from doing so is harmless. Children grow out of it when they reach the age of reason. When their brains become emotionally mature enough to yearn for the knowledge and gain the experience of indulging in more real and tangible things in the world.

 

But, what if there was an extremely high probability that children who were encouraged to embrace literature which is perceptibly fanciful in its narure, would have a flow-on effect of permanently disabling their ability to discern reality from fantasy?

 

I can guarantee you that if exposing children to caricatures of folklore resulted in an extremely high probability that they'd fall into a spectrum throughout their adult life, with the lower end of the spectrum being a passive believer of Santa Claus, Easter Bunny et al, to the higher end being that they believed that they had to fear and worship these figures or they'd perish in a lake of fire, then we'd all be re-evaluating the value of fantasy.

 

In fact, I'm pretty sure they'd be outlawed and deemed to be damaging and destructive to a mind that hasn't yet matured enough to discern fantasy from reality.

 

The difference between Santa Claus and Jesus isn't that great. Santa is presented and marketed as a fantasy for children. Except children don't realislze it's fantasy, until they do. And, they're only able to do that due to not having the idea proposed to them as an actual truth. In short, they weren't indoctrinated, therefore they forgo beleif once they reach the age of reason.

 

Religion reads just as much as a fantasy to an agnostic/atheist as Santa Claus does. It's only through tradition and societal customs past down to new generations, is this fantasy of an almighty creator accepted as the truth right into adulthood. Religion is nothing more than a mass delusion because.

 

As children, adults had the bible, Torah, Quran or whatever other holy book, presented to them as the only explanation of the universe. The scope for a mind to dismiss the absurd is patently squashed when mind is brainwashed into thinking, fearing that if they don't believe and adhere, they will be punished. Yet, somehow, this isn't considered dangerous by most people in the world?

 

May I suggest to you that the fact you didn't kill yourself because of your religion is, and of itself, not at all a signifier in the merit of religion, but rather it's a signifier that there's a whole different set of circumstances in your life which need addressing?

[Rayce]

I am sorry if my "fairy tale" bothers you... I've done my best to explain my position. Mock me if you will.

[Trail Blazer]

I am sorry if my "fairy tale" bothers you... I've done my best to explain my position. Mock me if you will.

I'm not mocking you at all. I understand that what I've said makes you feel uncomfortable and as a result, your reponse was quite defensive. That's how most people respond when they experience cognitive dissonance.

[Justanaverageguy]

JAAG, you might try Quaker (Religious Society of Friends) meetings sometime if you haven't already. Just be aware some of them are very (very) left wing in their political thinking. (The whole "religious belief/experience gets filtered through our brain" thing.)

 

It's like meditative prayer punctuated with statements or sometimes questions and then responses. Not a huge group and, while structured, the structuring is pretty minimal. If/when you feel "inspired" to say something during prayer you are generally encouraged to share it.

 

Thanks for the info will look into it

 

I was raised catholic - but like I said really didn't connect with the way they hold the mass service. So one of the things I've been doing over the past couple of years is visiting different denominations, churches, groups and seeing how they worship. I've found it incredibly diverse and interesting - ultimately I think they all have the same "medicine" but its nice to find it in a flavour your appreciate.

 

In that process I ended up connecting with and making a group of friends - who are actually all from slightly different cultures and backgrounds - Indian Hindu, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Yogic - and we just come together and read passages from spiritual texts we connect with. Sing praise songs that touch us personally and pray and talk and exchange ideas. Has been beautiful to see that ultimately all faiths cultures and people are ultimately striving for the same thing - peace, happiness, love and connection with God

[Rayce]

I'm not mocking you at all. I understand that what I've said makes you feel uncomfortable and as a result, your reponse was quite defensive. That's how most people respond when they experience cognitive dissonance.

 

Well this just sounds like an insult. I have no doubt that you could write comments all over me and around me that would totally go over my head and cause me to feel less than... its ok... it's not going to change my mind.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Rayce

[Trail Blazer]

Well this just sounds like an insult. I have no doubt that you could write comments all over me and around me that would totally go over my head and cause me to feel less than... its ok... it's not going to change my mind.

Nobody can change the mind of someone who doesn't want their mind changed. That's why religious indoctrination is so dangerous. "It's not going to change my mind." Your mind is closed to any of the possibilities which compromise your exisiting belief system. It's too uncomfortable, and that's exactly what cognitive dissonance.

 

Please, go and punch cognitive dissonance into Google. I could explain it here, but there's really no point if you don't want to know yourself. I am asking you to do so, as it will help you to understand about how people become in a state of psychological stress when they come across new ideas which make sense to them, but seemingly contradict their previous held beliefs.

 

I am not trying to insult you. I am not trying to be patronizing. I apologize if it might seem that way.

[E-mc2]

Nobody can change the mind of someone who doesn't want their mind changed. That's why religious indoctrination is so dangerous. "It's not going to change my mind." Your mind is closed to any of the possibilities which compromise your exisiting belief system. It's too uncomfortable, and that's exactly what cognitive dissonance.

 

Yes, very true. I know because I was deep in religious indoctrination. There was a time when I would street witness to people and if I ever came across someone who started to refute me I wouldn't even consider what they were saying. I would dismiss it as they were simply blind and couldn't understand spirituality like I could because they didn't have the holy spirit. Coming out of religion is a big humble pie to swallow which is why I suspect a good number of people will never leave it. They would have to admit they were wrong about something they felt so sure of. It's really scary to be honest, to think of how sure I was about the existence of god living inside me and speaking to me. It was so real. But now I realize how powerfully real delusions in the mind can be. That's why people stick with it so vehemently IMO.

[Trail Blazer]

Yes, very true. I know because I was deep in religious indoctrination. There was a time when I would street witness to people and if I ever came across someone who started to refute me I wouldn't even consider what they were saying. I would dismiss it as they were simply blind and couldn't understand spirituality like I could because they didn't have the holy spirit. Coming out of religion is a big humble pie to swallow which is why I suspect a good number of people will never leave it. They would have to admit they were wrong about something they felt so sure of. It's really scary to be honest, to think of how sure I was about the existence of god living inside me and speaking to me. It was so real. But now I realize how powerfully real delusions in the mind can be. That's why people stick with it so vehemently IMO.

Fascinating. I would love to know what started you on your path to agnosticism. Was it a chance encounter with someone who said soemthing which resonated with you? Or was it more of a self discovery?