Your opinion on OW's and husband's future together

[Tiny Dancer]

Hi. I'm new here. I found out 6 months ago that my husband of 20 years is having an affair. It is his second affair but with the same woman. The first one ended before I knew about it. Our only child was 3 when I found out and it had been over for over a year. I thought that chapter of our lives was closed and our marriage was improving, although slowly. When I found out about the current affair I was wrecked emotionally for several months; some days I still am. From the outside looking in we look like a "perfect" family. Two professionals, an adorable and intelligent child, nice home and wonderful friends.

 

The affair is horribly complicated by the fact that the OW's husband commited suicide (before I found out). I was blindsided by this turn of events in my life. I practiced domestic law for many years before deciding to stay home and raise our family. I observed through my practice that many people divorced over affairs when they could have created better lives together if they could address the underlying reasons for the affair and forgive. That's what I did the first time, I thought.

 

Now my husband is in love with the OW and staying at home with our son and me only for our son's benefit. His plans are to divorce in a few years and marry the OW (who has two children: one a teen and one just a couple of years older than our son). This sounds so ridiculous to me. I don't see how either one of these adults can contemplate a life together. They want to believe that their affair had nothing to do with the husband's suicide but I know from experience that a spouse can FEEL their spouse move away from them emotionally. (I felt this happening again in my marriage but my husband had PROMISED to tell me if ever those feelings came back and I trusted him. But I knew something was wrong and I was waiting patiently and giving him room to work it out or talk to me.) Whatever the OW's husband's other problems were, I believe the affair no doubt complicated them. I feel guilty about his death because I chose not to tell him about the first affair. After I had reached a point of forgiveness for my husband and the OW for the first affair I met face to face with her to talk. I wanted her to know that I was not going to jeopardize her family life by telling her husband. She assured me that the affair was over and that it had been a mistake and how sorry she was.

 

I never told anyone. Then 4 years after my discovering the first one, I found out that it has rekindled, or never died. If I had told the husband he might very well have reacted violently toward my husband, which I did not want. But I still cannot ignore the fact that I deprived him of information which might have spared his misery and his death. Now his children have to live with the aftermath which is difficult in any suicide. In the event that they ever discover that their mother was cheating on their father at the time that he took his life I think it would be awful for them. (She had been out of town with my husband, for their first overnight, one week before the suicide. She left town with a girlfriend and met up with my husband, who was on a hunting trip, as they had previously planned.)

 

There are so many questions I would like to ask here and I will in time I am sure. My situation is so absurd, but you'd have to live my life to understand why I'm still here. I see no future for them together given the tragic start to an already difficult situation. I do want my husband to be happy, but I don't see it happening with the course he has chosen (obvioudly I am biased on this subject because I want his future to be happy with ME.) He continues to tell me he loves me ("as a person, as a friend and a family member, but not as a wife!"). I feel so sorry for what he's going through and I understand it from many perspectives, but all of them spell misery from my experience. So I was wondering what some of you see as the potential for these two to live happily ever after. We live in a very small community (under 50,000 in our county), in the Bible Belt of the country.

[Art_Critic]

I'm sorry that you have had to endure this man's crap..

 

You need to stop worrying about their future together and worry about your future together instead.. From what I have read you need to do some serious soul searching on whether or not you need to end the marriage.

It sounds to me that the marriage should be ended .. Your son and all children are little sponges for negative energy.. He already feels that something isn't right and by ending the marriage you can end his pain and begin his healing and yours as well

 

 

my 2 cents

[LucreziaBorgia]

1. Now my husband is in love with the OW and staying at home with our son and me only for our son's benefit.

2. His plans are to divorce in a few years and marry the OW

 

1. I'm not sure how having a 'daddy' around who is in love with another woman and intends to ditch mommy in a few years is benefiting anyone but him. Your child's formative years will be spent learning all of the wrong things about marriage and emotional human interactions. Protect your child from this. Delaying won't help matters, or make things any easier if he is already emotionally divorced from you. Your child will be much happier with a separate-residence mother and father than he would a man leeching off the family home while he happily messes around with some other woman. It is time for your H to move out, even if it involves changing the locks and throwing all of his stuff onto the lawn.

 

2. Why delay his progress? Go to a lawyer, tell your entire story. Arrange for the quickest divorce you can get. If you are in an 'alienation of affection/criminal conversation' state, pursue that to the maximum penalty. Arrange for the maximum in child support and alimony payments. He is planning on divorce anyway, right? May as well pay the piper sooner than later. Since OW is so in love with him, she probably won't mind supporting him and helping him chip in to support payments for you and your son for the next ump-teen years until your son is an adult.

 

I expect that if he sees you are serious, and is standing in his front yard with the locks changed and divorce papers in his hand he'll be singing a very different tune, indeed.

[quankanne]

Go to a lawyer, tell your entire story. Arrange for the quickest divorce you can get. Arrange for the maximum in child support and alimony payments. … I expect that if he sees you are serious, and is standing in his front yard with the locks changed and divorce papers in his hand he'll be singing a very different tune, indeed.

 

indeed! my guess is that your husband, like so many of the other men whose lovers have posted on this forum, is stringing the both of you along. Will he and his lover live happily ever after? My immediate answer is no, because in all honesty, both women are getting the crappy end of the deal – you and she are giving your all, and he's only giving part of himself in each relationship. Ideally, the both of you would shxtcan the man and forge a new path without him. Because he is going to stay right where he is for as long as he can, based on what I've read from lovers of married men.

 

I cannot in all honesty imagine either of them being happy in a relationship because it was founded on deception and lies (he lied to his wife to be with her; will he lie to her about future lovers if she marries him?), and a lack of respect is usually found in that mixture.

 

it's possible that I'm way off-base with my conjectures, but the probability is that they end up together, unhappy, or one dumps the other because of a lack of trust or respect.

 

in the meantime, seriously consider if you want to remain in a relationship with someone who doesn't have your marriage in his best interests. There are men out there who would love to be in a relationship with a devoted significant other, and who would cherish it above all else; why squander something good on someone who doesn't appreciate it?

[Tiny Dancer]

I'm sorry that you have had to endure this man's crap..

.......my 2 cents

 

Thank you so much for your reply. You sound like a very intelligent person. You're also very insightful! I don't disagree that children are little sponges for negative energy. (And if there is any such thing as psychic our son is, or verges on it...honestly.) So I agree that this is not good for him. During my years of practicing law I had no children and it was indeed my pov that children were better off with divorce than with both parents in such a situation. However, with more years of experience in life and actually having a child (plus reading some of the more recent studies on children and divorce) I have come to undrestand that divorce is actually one of the worst things that can happen in a child's life..supposedly even worse than the death of a parent. As recently as a year ago my husband believed that too. Supposedly this is his reason for not rushing out of our marriage to marry the OW. ( If he wanted to do what was best for our son all the way around he would ditch the OW and focus on repairing what we once had. Right now he's going through the selfishness that so many do at mid-life. For some people this passes but still others remain stuck in it forever. I'm praying that it passes and does so before I have to let go for my own sake and our son's.)

 

I don't spend a lot of energy worrying about "their" happiness but this situation tends to make you question so much of what you trust and believe that I am curious about other's opinions.

 

From my perspective I believe that if we divorce and he marries the OW that there will be then yet another divorce on the horizon for my son to have to deal with. That is a pattern that I believe would be far worse than the patterns of our current family situation. So if there is any chance that our marriage can be salvaged I have to give it time. So many affairs loose their charm once they are out in the open. (This one isn't yet in the open but it is as far as my husband's lying to me is concerned.)

 

Also, I know that everyone makes mistakes in their lives. Sure, this is the second time for him but in all fairness to him and our relationship I now know that neither one of us faced up to the issues and problems in our marriage before. I have now started doing that for my part. I'm far from perfect, but I see and understand how so much of my own behavior contributed to his feelings of loneliness and despair. The choice to have the affair was his and it was wrong; even he realizes it. Unfortunately he is now caught up in a drama that is addictive. Sex is a powerful motivator and it's easy to fall in love when your life together has no bearing in the real world. It allows one to ignore the problems that were brought to the previous marriage and just move on without ever having to deal with tough issues. Dealing with such issues takes much love, patience and maturity; those are qualities that one caught up in a selfish episode cannot muster.

 

If we had both addressed our individual problems before I doubt that we would be in this situation now. I'm simply trying to make sure that when and if I move forward I can do so knowing that I have tried. So that's what I do, most every day... just try to make the home that he wanted that I didn't before, improve my manner of communication, and try to let go of the learned behavior that was so destructive. So I have some "sweeping around my own doorstep" to do. (Some days, like today, the emotions are too close to the surface and too draining to do much more than NOT cry.)

 

I know that some people would label me a doormat. Because the choice is mine, Im not. He knows that at any time I might find all of this too much to handle and he'd be out. Knee jerk reactions are rarely correct and so often in life it's when we feel "justified" that we make our biggest mistakes. I want to make sure that any action I take has been considered with a clear head, which I'm getting closer to every day. If I didn't love him and if all of this wasn't contrary to everything he's said he believed I could walk away much easier. Even he has admitted that he's confused. I know he wants a better marriage and better life than what we had, but he lacks the confidence in me to let go of her and try whole-heartedly with me. I don't blame him for being afraid. Unfortunately the situation makes it impossible for me to be the best me I can be.

 

I just know that it's not time to give up, for any of our sakes. I appreciate all points of view though. I know I don't have all the answers. This is new territory for me, so I hope to learn from other's experiences and opinions. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

[Tiny Dancer]

1. I'm not sure how having a 'daddy' around who is in love with another woman and intends to ditch mommy in a few years is benefiting anyone but him. Your child's formative years will be spent learning all of the wrong things about marriage and emotional human interactions.

....

I expect that if he sees you are serious, and is standing in his front yard with the locks changed and divorce papers in his hand he'll be singing a very different tune, indeed.

 

I agree with you. It's the patterns that he will learn if we divorce that also worry me. The OW was in a motel with my husband one week to the day after her husband's funeral. What kind of woman does that? What kind of step-mom will she be to my son? In my opinion she has NO respect for men in general if she can do this. She had been married for 19 or 20 years. I can't imagine a woman with ANY feeling for anyone other than herself conducting herself this way. At the very least it's horrible judgment! (My husband's was bad too, but he wasn't the "weeping widow" !!)

 

I also think that my son's opinion of his father is very important. I can't change the facts but I don't want to just kick my husband out either. If it comes to a separation it will have to be it in a calm, planned manner without any drama. But I agree with you in that I suspect that once my husband was actually out of the family home that he would see things differently. However, I would like to spare my son the memory of such a separation if at all possible, which it may not be.

[Tiny Dancer]

indeed! my guess is that your husband, like so many of the other men whose lovers have posted on this forum, is stringing the both of you along. Will he and his lover live happily ever after? My immediate answer is no, because in all honesty, both women are getting the crappy end of the deal – you and she are giving your all, and he's only giving part of himself in each relationship.

I cannot in all honesty imagine either of them being happy in a relationship because it was founded on deception and lies (he lied to his wife to be with her; will he lie to her about future lovers if she marries him?), and a lack of respect is usually found in that mixture.

I know that this bothers him and as a result he is depressed and drinking more. (There are times when he will absolutely ignore the message tweet on his phone and simply switch it to silent, so that he can ignore her.) I know he has intimacy issues and giving part to two women keeps him from giving all to either. His father was an alcoholic, but he refuses to think he suffered as a consequence because he had a relatively happy childhood and is professionally very successful. This is one of the issues he'll have to deal with if our marriage is going to survive, or if ANY of his marriages are going to survive. I can't force it though; he has to get to that realization on his own.

 

Your "conjecture" as to their future is the same one I see if I give up too quickly. That's the reason for my efforts. I don't want a second divorce to be in my son's future.

______________________________

 

I'm grateful for everyone's opinions and the chance to talk about this. One of the worst parts for me is having no one to discuss this with. Most of our friends are couples friends and when I told my therapist about the affair I left feeling worse than when I arrived...so I haven't been back.

Now it's time for soccer so I'm out for now. Thanks for your comments.

[LucreziaBorgia]

At the very least, I hope that he treats you civilly in front of your son if he is staying around, and does not discuss the "future with the OW" in the family home. Do you and he appear 'normal' for your kid?

 

So if there is any chance that our marriage can be salvaged I have to give it time.

 

If your marriage has any chance, any chance at all - time in and of itself isn't what is needed. What is needed is for OW to be out of your lives forever. The OW will have to be firmly out of the picture, and H will have to go through some individual and marriage counseling to work with you on these deep fissures in your marriage. Perhaps it will require a drastic measure like knocking him off the fence with the very real threat of divorce if he doesn't.

 

You can try waiting it out, but understand there is an OW "in need of rescuing" (the 'white knight' syndrome if I've ever seen one) on the other side of the fence influencing his decisions as well - and there is as likely of a chance he could come down on her side of the fence if you choose to 'wait it out'. Every day you give him in 'waiting' is another day he will bond closer with OW. If you strike now, and hand him his divorce papers, you will no longer be enabling the situation. He will be forced to make a real decison. At this point, since its clear that if he really wanted to leave, he would have - there is a greater chance he will jump down off the fence to your side.

[RecordProducer]

1. I don't see how you would have helped the OW's husband if you had told him about the affair. What if he killed your husband before killing himself? This is highly hypothetical, but the point is: you never know what is the best action in such cases. Do you really think he would have felt better if he found out about the affair? No way! Don't feel guilty, nothing is your fault.

 

2. The best way to keep your husband is to not try to keep him. The more you pull him into the marriage the more he will run away from you. If he was 100% serious about the OW, he would've left by now. Why wait for a few years? I don't believe the son is the reason, because your son will not be an adult in a few years.

 

If you start dating other people (you have the right since he is having an affair and admits he is not in love with you), you might pique his interest again. Make up an online cyber lover if necessary. Start dressing sexy, work on your figure, change your hair styling and make-up, engage in a few new activities, be happy and cheerful. Make him envy your life and admire the woman you are. Encourage him to be with the OW as if you totally don't need him, but do it in a charming way. He won't like her so much if he is "allowed" to have her.

 

After all, you might be happier without him. Often women don't even realize they are trapped in their own illusion of a great marriage. You can put your profile on dating sites and start meeting people from other cities if you want. You can also separate from your husband and let him see how it works with the OW. Most likely they won't work out as they expect, although you never know.

 

3. In theory I don't see any problem for their marriage to work out due to the tragic circumstance of her husband's death. How they would get along depends solely on their feelings and compatibility. The children might cause certain problems though, e.g. if her sons don't accept him or she treats your son improperly.

[submart]

Hey, I'm sorry about your situation.

 

I know that you in part feel responsible for the OW husband's suicide, but you are in no way at fault!!!! Suicide is not brought on by one life event in nearly all cases. It is a long painful process of depression and unsolved issues that an individual does not seek help for. It is a choice the individual made himself!

 

Telling the husband about the affair would probably not have affecated the outcome. There was other issues aside from the affair that was present, such as problems in the marriage, with himself, family, untreated depression, work situations, etc.

 

His wife's actions, in part I'm sure led to him taking his life, but there were still other issues there. She will feel some guilt for the rest of her life.

 

I encourage you to get some individual counseling to deal with the affects of your husband's affair as well as any guilt you feel as a result of the suicide.

 

Also, marriages/relationships that are extra-marital usually DO NOT last!! There is no trust, and therefore there is no love.

[Tiny Dancer]

At the very least, I hope that he treats you civilly in front of your son if he is staying around, and does not discuss the "future with the OW" in the family home. Do you and he appear 'normal' for your kid?

For the most part he does treat me civilly and he never mentions the OW, but I know that our son "feels" the difference in our relationship. "Daddy" isn't as loving or as attentive to me as he was before I found out. On the other hand the level of tension in our home has been greatly reduced. For several months before I knew the truth he was criticizing EVERYTHING I did. (Even if I just agreed with him). Now that phase is over so things are much more peaceful on a daily basis.

 

If your marriage has any chance, any chance at all - time in and of itself isn't what is needed. What is needed is for OW to be out of your lives forever. The OW will have to be firmly out of the picture, and H will have to go through some individual and marriage counseling to work with you on these deep fissures in your marriage.

I agree with you. Right now it doesn't look like she's going anywhere and that is discouraging. I just wonder how long she can stand knowing that he's "taking care" of this family when what she really wants is for him to "take care" of hers. Our son is in private school and we take a lot of "family trips" out of town. We still have a lot of wonderful family and couples time together during which he is not in contact with her! That has to make her wonder about his true intentions.

 

I agree with the "white knight" syndrome consideration. He's a true "southern gentleman" in that regard; I also agree that it may take the real threat of divorce to move him off of the fence. Although he says he doesn't care what I do or who I do it with his actions say something differently. However, once I move to the point of filing for divorce I will finish it. Separation is one thing...filing for divorce would be the closing bell!

 

Every day you give him in 'waiting' is another day he will bond closer with OW. If you strike now, and hand him his divorce papers, you will no longer be enabling the situation. He will be forced to make a real decison. At this point, since its clear that if he really wanted to leave, he would have - there is a greater chance he will jump down off the fence to your side

This is definitely a real consideration and I see your point. I love him and I honestly want to spend the rest of my life with him, but only in an exclusive relationship. Yet I have to balance that with consideration for our son, who is only 7. Emotionally it would be terribly damaging for him at this point. I do realize that in reality I may very likely be trading my personal happiness for these extremely important formative years for our son. (Would I run into a burning house to save my son and possibly loose my life? The obvious answer is that I am living in one!)

 

This dialogue is terribly important for me. It makes me evaluate these considerations on multiple levels. Thanks.

[Tiny Dancer]

1. I don't see how you would have helped the OW's husband if you had told him about the affair.

Thanks for that. I have to believe that you're right but there are times when I think that honesty would have been the best course, letting the chips fall where they might. Even now, she has NO ONE to be accountable to and that has proven to be just as dangerous to my marriage ultimately.

2. The best way to keep your husband is to not try to keep him. The more you pull him into the marriage the more he will run away from you. If he was 100% serious about the OW, he would've left by now. Why wait for a few years? I don't believe the son is the reason, because your son will not be an adult in a few years.

I hope you're right. That's the way I see it too. As for dating other prople, I honestly can't do it, and I question whether in my particular case I should even try to make him jealous. I think that at this point, because I agree that he isn't sure he really wants to leave, that he needs to know without doubt that he can trust me. We've both fostered a lot of misconceptions about each other so I want him to KNOW that he can trust what I say and do. I have shed a LOT of bad habits in these 6 months and even before because I had realized the error of my own ways. (Some of this really IS my fault.)

But as for working on the figure etc. that pretty much took care of itself. I was so upset when I found out, that I wasn't able to eat for about three months. I went from about a size 4-6 to a size 0-2. At 5'0" I'm the right size now and YES, he's noticed. Changing sizes also required new clothes and fortunately what few things I find in my size are indeed very sexy, and/or short! As for hair and make-up, I'm on it. It's one of the best treatments I know to boost my confidence. Thanks for the reminder!

 

engage in a few new activities, be happy and cheerful. Make him envy your life and admire the woman you are.

I agree here too and I am pursuing that, but not to make him envious. I just want to be happier and feel better and have a life that does not depend on having him by my side to be fulfilling. BUT, I have to be cautious b/c just last night he commented that I was inhuman because I CAN live in this situation. (damned if I do and damned if I don't!)

 

Encourage him to be with the OW as if you totally don't need him, but do it in a charming way. He won't like her so much if he is "allowed" to have her

Okay, please explain this. I understand that giving him permission takes some of the fun out of it. What do you mean by do it in a "charming way". You've got my curiosity up.

 

After all, you might be happier without him.

I was there, but my Christian faith took over and I found myself praying for a restoration of feelings for him about a year and a half ago. Be careful what you pray for... it happened. Before I found out about this affair I had reached the point where I knew that I loved him unconditionally, with all my heart, and that our marriage could be wonderful again. (But it's the man he used to be and I know he could be again that I love. I don't like the one he currently is, but because it's so out of character for him I have to have time to see if it's a permanent change or just a reaction to his own personal problems and the underlying issues in our marriage.)

 

I have no illusions that we have or have recently had a great marriage. The difference is that now I'm different. I am becoming the person I always wanted to be and the person I wanted him to think I was, which was the person he fell in love with 21 years ago. Even if we do divorce I will be happier with me than I was before. (It would be a pity for him to miss out on having the woman he always wanted, and staying married to his child's mother at the same time! So that's why biding my time, and working on ME, feels like the right thing to do at this point.)

 

Thanks for the advice and your input. As I've said before, this dialogue is extremely beneficial for me. I appreciate everyone's time and opinions, and patience while I work through this.

[seachange]

I'm so sorry that you're in this awful situation.

 

Your son is obviously your first consideration here (although your own mental health and happiness will certainly impact him). And though I know what it's like to deal with infidelity, there were no children to consider in my marriage, so I can't put myself in your shoes.

 

But with that caveat, I did see something in your first post that I want to respond to.

 

I totally understand your need to examine yourself, your behavior and actions in the relationship. I did that too, when I found out about my ex-husband's affair. Oddly, I felt an enormous amount of guilt - I blamed myself for every time I had failed to be patient, understanding, for every time he thought I neglected him to do something for my career, every time I failed to be the best wife I could have been. I knew I hadn't been perfect, and I accepted full blame for every transgression, soaked it all in because A) I wanted to rectify things; B) I wanted to show that it would be different now; and C) I wanted to have some control over the situation and since I wasn't ready to throw in the towel, this was the only action I could think of to take.

 

I don't think you can rush ending a relationship any more than you can rush starting one. I, too, wanted to try everything I possibly could to fix things, for my own peace of mind, and I was prepared to throw myself into it until I felt satisfied I'd examined it from every angle. It's a kind of closure, I suppose.

 

As for him - well, he knew that an affair was a bad thing. But, predictably, he also felt his was different than others (sigh) and that it was right for him. I thought he couldn't face what he'd done, but with patience on my part perhaps we could come to a deeper understanding. I told myself that of course he was angry - and though I was certainly aware that he had behaved awfully toward me, and hurt me deeply, I also thought that it was an indicator of some deep cracks in our marriage (although I truly had no idea they were that deep until I found out what had been going on), and I thought, this is anger, he's acting out, I can be patient and accept his anger because maybe there's a lot of truth there and we just need to get to the point where we can talk about it. And since my goal at the time was reconciliation, I wasn't prepared to take him to task yet for his own behavior.

 

I'm not trying to put these words in your mouth. But I'm just concerned, because it took me a long time to get out of that mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa mindset. It was tempting to slip into, because if everything was my fault, I also had the power to fix it.

 

But in the end, you could do yourself more damage that way. So I guess I'm just saying, do try to take care of yourself.

[Tiny Dancer]

I'm not trying to put these words in your mouth. But I'm just concerned, because it took me a long time to get out of that mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa mindset. It was tempting to slip into, because if everything was my fault, I also had the power to fix it.

But in the end, you could do yourself more damage that way. So I guess I'm just saying, do try to take care of yourself.

 

Thanks for the thoughts. I do understand where you're coming from. If there were no children to consider here I think we would have already called it quits. That being said, it was after our son was born and I went through a period of post-partum depression that things got so horrible, and failed to get better. Also, we made a common mistake and focused all of our energy on our child and neglected each other. (We both realize that error now, but he's not ready to take a chance on trusting me yet.)

 

I appreciate your sharing your thoughts on the danger of blaming myself. I do realize that he shares in responsibility for what has happened and I know he has to own his own behavior. I can't change him; he has to want to change. I can work on me though and correct the destructive behavior I have held onto for so long; that's my focus (as it was before I learned of the affair.) The problem is that he's having a hard time believing that I'm not reacting to the affair and just being competitive and that such changes are not just efforts at "good behavior" in his words. That's not the case at all, but he'll have to figure that one out for himself.

 

I can't controll him or change him. I can only fix myself and maybe in the process he'll be inspired to do the same. He, like your Ex, of course thinks that his affair is different. (I had one too and I thought the same thing. He knows about it and we've talked about it. I thought I'd found the 'love of my life.' The truth was that my H and I had problems and because of that he was ignoring me in the bedroom and I wanted attention and comfort. That was over 11 years ago. I moved past the affair it but it took several years of my life/ our lives.)

 

It's just very hard to realize when you're in an affair that the person who you are cheating with does not have your best interest in mind. They can seem like your very best friend. The reality is that if they were a friend at all they would encourage you to fix or end your bad marriage/relationship before moving on to some one else. Problem is the same type people (frequently co-dependant) are attracted to each other and are usually going through similar problems.

 

Now, I realize that my ex-lover was no more a friend than the neighbor's dog is a friend. He wags his tail and is happy to see me, but it's not me, it's the attentition he craves. I believe that sooner or later my H will figure this out, but I know I can't count on it. I have told him already that I cannot loose myself in all of this because our son deserves a mom who is not an emotional mess. (He deserves a dad who is just as healthy, but right now that's not possible.)

 

Thanks again for the insight. I need all the help I can get!

[RecordProducer]

1.I just want to be happier and feel better and have a life that does not depend on having him by my side to be fulfilling. BUT, I have to be cautious b/c just last night he commented that I was inhuman because I CAN live in this situation. (damned if I do and damned if I don't!)

That's a very nice attitude. It must be very hard for you to live with him knowing that he loves another woman. You seem to control yourself very well, I admire you for that. He is still with you so he might have the chance to see the woman you want to be.

By the way, are you a dancer, Tiny Dancer? Dancing is a very good way to relieve stress and enjoy yourself in the evenings? It's also a nice way to meet new people and have fun. I started taking dancing classes recently and now it's my passion (Latin and smooth dances).

Encourage him to be with the OW as if you totally don't need him, but do it in a charming way. He won't like her so much if he is "allowed" to have her

Okay, please explain this. I understand that giving him permission takes some of the fun out of it. What do you mean by do it in a "charming way". You've got my curiosity up.

 

Now he has two women who want to be with him and he is hesitant. He is neither yours nor hers completely. You are not happy because he is seeing her and she is not happy, because he is married to you. If you let him know that he is "dismissed" and free to go, he will only have one choice - her. But he is not yet sure he wants her so he might concentrate on keeping you rather. At the same time you are having the time of your life and giving him permission to be with her means you are moving on.

 

The point is to actually kick him on the other side of the fence when he is sitting on the fence so he makes sure himself that the grass is not really greener. As long as you both want him, he is actually happy. Imagine that two guys are chasing after you. You would feel flattered and good about yourself. But if one of them gives up on you, you will suddenly see all the faults of the other one and miss the first one. And if the first one was better, you would want to choose him.

 

Of course this is risky, but in my opinion, you would feel better if he brings his final decision as soon as possible. Waiting for a few years for him to leave you is living in agony. I truly believe that he will choose to stay with you. The more he prolongs not leaving you the less chances for him to choose the other woman. That's why I said it's a risky strategy - because if you push him to choose her, he may actually choose her. But on the other hand you may win in another way - a healthy one. I believe that you don't want him to stay with you just because he didn't decide to marry the OW; you want him to stay with you because he wants to and loves you.

 

Refusing to wait for him to make up his mind as if you're hanging on a hanger and desperately waiting for the crumbs of his love might help you keep your sanity and dignity. Now again imagine the two guys waiting for you to make up your mind. You would feel like a queen on a throne. But if one of them refuses to wait for you to make up your mind, you would have more respect for him, right? We tend to appreciate more people who cherish self-respect.

 

But it's up to you to choose the course you feel most comfortable with. By "charming way" I meant: not to nag, fight, show that you're hurt, but rather let him know in a civilized way (calmly, peacefully, and almost with a smile) that the relationship between you is over and he should start making plans to be with the OW. That you want to discuss the legalities of the divorce. He will be shocked and confused and it will sound like you actually can't wait to get rid of him. He is not ready to leave so he will say that it's best to stay together for the sake of your son. But you again might tell him that your son will be fine and you refuse to live in a lie. Bigamy might be nice for him, but not for you. He wants her so he is free to go and things can remain civilized and good between you. You can offer to help him pack too.

 

Are you willing to participate in his double life at your own expense? You are voluntarily accepting the pain, while he has the chance to be with his son, not go through divorce (and be financially ruined), and enjoy with the OW at the same time. I think he is playing a game actually. He won't leave you, he just wants to be free to see the OW whenever he wants and he knows that he won't need her anymore after a few years. But if he told you straightforwardly that this was his plan (to stay married, but have a mistress on aside), you wouldn't have allowed that kind of behavior. So by threatening you with divorce he shuts your mouth up, because he counts on the fact that you want to be married to him. He is using emotional blackmail to get what he wants. So if you return the ball to him and oppose to his "clever" plan, he will either have to break up with her or leave. Obviously he wants neither. What do you want?

[Tiny Dancer]

That's a very nice attitude. It must be very hard for you to live with him knowing that he loves another woman. You seem to control yourself very well, I admire you for that.

It's hard to live, period, knowing that he loves another woman. The thing that keeps me moving forward is that I understand from my own past that affairs are symptoms of other problems. I have no doubt now that my H is depressed and has been for years. I'm the strongest and healthiest one right now, so I try not to let my hurt get in the way. I don't always succeed though!

 

By the way, are you a dancer, Tiny Dancer? Dancing is a very good way to relieve stress and enjoy yourself in the evenings? It's also a nice way to meet new people and have fun. I started taking dancing classes recently and now it's my passion (Latin and smooth dances).

LOL. Not a dancer; the name is from the Elton John song. But I think taking a dance class sounds like a lot of fun. You've given me a good idea for something to pursue that would be a no loose situation for me. (Fun, relieves stress, provide a much needed change of scenery, plus expose me to new people.)

 

That brings up the second part of your post. Your points are all well taken and I understand now exactly what you mean. I think that there are a lot of situations where such action would bring about the desired result.

 

I would be lying if I said that I had not considered just sending him on his way so he could go ahead and see if the grass is really greener. The problem is that for much of our married life I HAVE acted pretty much like I could live without my H. I now see that was a mistake because what I was really doing was keeping myself from being vulnerable to him. From taking a good look at myself I understand that I too had/have a fear of intimacy that is deep rooted in my childhood from unintended, but nonetheless damaging, emotional abuse in my formative years.

 

One of the first things I did after finding about about his affair was to vow to be completely honest with him and myself about my feelings. I did this because a lot of the comments he had made in the months prior suddenly made sense and made me realize that he had honestly questioned my love for him. I went through an extended period of depression and during that I did and said things that were very un-loving. For that reason I think that playing a game of cat and mouse would be the proverbial nail in the coffin.

 

On the other hand, I think it is very positive, for all of us, for me to be more involved in my own life; but not in a selfish way. He expects the person he thought I was/thnks I am to go out and start dating sooner or later and reject him. He even half expects me to do so and lie about it. I can tell that even in the few days that I have been on this message board he has been suspicious. (The computer is in our family room.) I want a place where I can express my feelings and talk freely, even vent when I need to, but I believe that his being suspicious of my actions will only drive him further away emotionally. It's a delicate balance.

 

But I do understand what you mean about the ego boost he must be getting of having two women who want him. I don't have an answer for that. I just know that I have to let him see my honest heart, which loves him and misses him emotionally. We all know that the infatuation stage does not last. Although the thrill of an affair can prolong it, sooner or later it fades and it becomes emotionally draining trying to live two lives. That's the point at which he'll make a decision. If I'm still here he will have had the opportunity by then to see that life could be wonderful with me again. I guess it comes down to a question of which one of us breaks, emotionally, first.

 

Thanks so much for your very thoughtful and insightful post. I'm sorry it took me so long to respond. I've written it 3 times and lost it in favor of keeping down his suspicion! I am most grateful for this site. There seem to be some amazingly informed people on it, yourself included.

[centered]

I would be lying if I said that I had not considered just sending him on his way so he could go ahead and see if the grass is really greener. The problem is that for much of our married life I HAVE acted pretty much like I could live without my H. I now see that was a mistake because what I was really doing was keeping myself from being vulnerable to him. From taking a good look at myself I understand that I too had/have a fear of intimacy that is deep rooted in my childhood from unintended, but nonetheless damaging, emotional abuse in my formative years.

 

Yes, this was a mistake, in my opinion. You are clearly well-educated, and a very thoughtful person. What you seem to lack is real passion about your relationship with him. Have you really fought for him? Is he even *worth* fighting for? And without the passion, would he even fight for you? Men may make a lot of noise about wanting their space and freedom, but they also like to know their wife has some passion and a fierce sense of *belonging* to him and what's "hers." People can be territorial; but that's sometimes a good thing in relationships -- it helps keep the partner from straying, and shows them how deep your feelings run.

 

You mention your fear of commitment. This may also be what I'm hearing as a lack of passion. Just another wall, another layer of protection. To feel passionate about someone, you have to open up and be vulnerable, to let them in where you could be hurt. It's a risk. But it's also the best recipe for real romance, along with a healthy sense of lust and desire -- things required of a solid marriage between two mature (but not infirm) people.

 

Not knowing you or him, these are just some random thoughts I'm sharing. If passion (or lack of) is part of the problem, I'm not sure how you fix this with him so late in the game. He has to be willing to work with you on it, but instead he's found a surrogate. And that goes back to my first question: is he worth fighting for?

[sylviaguardian]

Tinydancer,

 

i have just skimmed these posts so forgive me if I say something that has already been said, but what sticks out most in your posts is the way you take so much responsibility for your husband. It is not your concern whether or not he can be happy with the OW etc. That is HIS concern. By taking so much responsibility for him and being so reasonable you are allowing him not to take any responsibility for his own behaviour.

 

At seven, your son will have a fair idea of what is going on, believe me. Do you want him to grow up thinking this is how he should treat women?

 

As RP says, if he wants the OW, let him have her. Suggest he move in with her for a while. Be very charming and pleasant but make it clear that you will NOT have him back until he is ready to make a choice. Wanting to work on the marriage and admitting your mistakes is all very laudable but not when the other person only has one foot in the marriage.

 

Now what worries me is the lack of emotion in your messages. You say that you were emotionally damaged as a child and perhaps this a result of it. Anyone else in your position would be livid that he has the cheek to do this! Have you thought about counselling for yourself? Sometimes it can help you to really see how you feel about something if you have the time and the space to just talk through a problem with an outside party.

 

At the moment you seem to be accepting second best and I wonder why that is? You do not deserve it, no-one does.

 

Sylvia

[seachange]

I'm the strongest and healthiest one right now, so I try not to let my hurt get in the way.

 

The problem is that for much of our married life I HAVE acted pretty much like I could live without my H. I now see that was a mistake because what I was really doing was keeping myself from being vulnerable to him.

 

Wait, this is what I was referring to in my earlier post. This may indeed be true - I have no doubt that you are intelligent and insightful enough to be able to identify situations where this happened. But I suspect there were many many times where you did show your feelings for him, where you did let yourself be vulnerable (and it must be difficult not to compare yourself to the OW, who is certainly "vulnerable" at the moment). You really don't strike me as someone who is insensitive, although you're painting yourself that way. Instead, you strike me as someone who wants to shoulder the blame for someone she loves, rather than lose him. But here's the thing - there's an implicit assumption there that if he decides to stay with you, that at some point, when he's emotionally ready to, he'll accept his fair share of the blame.

 

But what if he never does? Are you prepared to accept full responsibility for this situation indefinitely? Do you really think that so much of this is your fault?

 

Please consider talking to a therapist - not a marriage counselor, but someone to help you get a neutral vision of what really happened in your marriage to bring you to this point. Someone to help you see where you really did hold yourself back from being vulnerable to him - and where you didn't.

 

Because again, I think you are taking on so much responsibility here - for his depression, for the OW's husband's suicide, for every time you didn't show that you were vulnerable, for the months leading up to this where you didn't see the warning signs - and it is so important to understand that this is not just about all the things you did wrong.

 

Whether or not he is strong enough to accept his portion of the blame does not mean that you have to take it on for him.

 

I just know that I have to let him see my honest heart, which loves him and misses him emotionally. We all know that the infatuation stage does not last. Although the thrill of an affair can prolong it, sooner or later it fades and it becomes emotionally draining trying to live two lives. That's the point at which he'll make a decision. If I'm still here he will have had the opportunity by then to see that life could be wonderful with me again. I guess it comes down to a question of which one of us breaks, emotionally, first.

 

I don't see this, or any of your posts, as indicating a lack of passion per se; I see it as trying to remain calm and finding a way to take action and have some control over a situation that is potentially devastating. I'm guessing you are deeply angry, or will let yourself be, once the "crisis" passes - but again, therapy might let you give yourself a chance to be sooner rather than later. It's possible that you can wait him out - I'm sure you can, actually. I'd guess you have quite a lot of emotional strength. And though that's generally an asset, I think that in this case it could get in the way, because it might be making it harder for you to honestly assess centered's question: is he really worth it?

[sugar-rae]

 

At the moment you seem to be accepting second best and I wonder why that is? You do not deserve it, no-one does.

 

Sylvia

 

I was wondering this myself? When my H told me about the A I didn't want him to stay and work it out until he ended the A with her, THAT DAY.

I loved him and wanted him to be with me but I couldn't have lived with him knowing he hadn't ended it with the OW.

He was her supervisor at work and it was going to be hard enough knowing they were in the same building, let alone still having the A not officially ended on his part (i.e. telling her to her face it was over).

 

btw, how are you doing SG? I haven't read anything lately from you (on your posts)on how you are?

I have been reading alot of your posts and find your dealings have been alot like mine where the H continuing to lie and not tell the whole story. My H's A ended 4 yrs ago.

[Tiny Dancer]

I don't see this, or any of your posts, as indicating a lack of passion per se; I see it as trying to remain calm and finding a way to take action and have some control over a situation that is potentially devastating. I'm guessing you are deeply angry, or will let yourself be, once the "crisis" passes - but again, therapy might let you give yourself a chance to be sooner rather than later. It's possible that you can wait him out - I'm sure you can, actually. I'd guess you have quite a lot of emotional strength. And though that's generally an asset, I think that in this case it could get in the way, because it might be making it harder for you to honestly assess centered's question: is he really worth it?

 

Thanks Seachange. I do understand that my posts might be seen as lacking passion but in reality it is just an effort (an enormous one) to maintain my calm. There have indeed been many, many times in our marriage when I have been warm, supportive, loving and yes VERY passionate and vulnerable to him. The problem was that I had learned behavior from my childhood that was destructive to that. For me to correct my own portion of fault in our problems I have to face that fact. (It hasn't come easily, and I resisted it the first time around. I laid all the blame at his feet and it didn't really fix anything.)

 

It's been 6 months since I found out this time and there are still times when I get really, really angry; yes even livid. The catch is that, as a self-protective measure from childhood, I was accustomed to letting hurt trip me immediately to anger, ALWAYS. So now when that happens it looks a lot like I haven't changed ANY and it triggers his feelings of justification about the whole affair. It's a vicious cycle that one of us has to break if we are ever to move past this. He's proven that he can't do it, so in order to help the situation, I have to make that change.

 

About two weeks after I found out about them, this time, I was out with my husband and son at Walmart and I saw her with her son. To my horror she was wearing one of my husband's t-shirts that he had gotten on our family vacation to Hawaii a few years ago. (It was right after I had found out about them the first time and it had been a trip where we made great strides... I thought... to getting our life back. So to see it on her brought on a flood of emotion and questions that were unbearable.) I had to fain a stomach ache and excuse myself to the car so my son would be none the wiser. I curled up on the backseat and cried for HOURS,.... well past the 30 minute trip to Walmart. I couldn't stop and I couldn't let my son see me like that. I just stayed curled up on the backseat after we got home and had to get my H to put our son to bed with the explanation that "Mommie has a really bad stomach ache and is too sick to move right now, but she'll be okay." Afterward my H continued to check on me and apologize. I think it actually scared him. It was a moment of truth for my husband as to how much he had hurt me. It shocked him when in trying to soothe me he said, "You really love our son don't you?", and I replied, "I love you BOTH!"

 

I spent the rest of the Spring and all of this Summer waking up a couple of hours early so I could get past the crying before our son got up. My husband knew this. It's only been in the last couple of weeks that I've moved from crying EVERY day to crying every other day or so. I can't let myself fall apart like that anymore. But it doesn't mean that I'm emotionally detached and it doesn't mean that I lack the passion that my marriage needs. I just have to channel that passion into something positive. He has already shown some reaction to my efforts at this, so I think it's the right course. I just have to keep my optimism tempered with reality.

 

And yes, my H has to take his share of the blame in all of this and move towards repair of his problems if EVER we are to have a relationship again. I do realize this and I have no illusions about it. I don't know if he ever will or not. If he doesn't, then there will come a point at which it is just over. Because that is the part over which I have no control it is the part that scares me the most and causes me the most anxiety, hurt, and yes anger.

 

I have told him that I don't want to get back the relationship that we had and he was shocked at that. I've made it clear that I won't accept that, even if the OW is out of the picture. I've clearly stressed that if it can't be better than it was and healthy and passionate, then we are all better off with a divorce. Consequently, if he can't make his own necessary changes then I know that there is no future for us. Time is the only answer to whether or not he will indeed decide to address his problems. How much time is the million dollar question!

 

The person he used to be and the person I think he wants to be is definitely worth the effort I am making. He has said that he is like a pebble in a stream that has been worn down by years of our roller coaster relationship. He has proven by pursuing the affair that he also wants something better. He is intelligent and sensitive and morally centered enough to realize that he has gone about finding it in the wrong way. My hope is that he will soon realize that he can have that something better with me, so that he doesn't have to sacrifice our family to get it.)

 

Thank you all for your responses and support. I appreciate any and all thoughts on my posts, and I read them all and consider them (even if I don't quote them or respond directly to them.) It's hard to see the big picture when I'm in the day to day of it all and your different points of view are very helpful! BTW, I have talked to a therapist and I may do so again in time. I saw one regularly for a few years. I think that's the reason I was able to start moving towards personal change BEFORE all of this came to light. If I hadn't already been on that path I would NEVER have been inclined to do anything but boot his but to the curb this time!

 

I'm sorry that this is so long. The catharsis is very therapeutic. You are all great!

[centered]

You, not him. (Yet. Maybe.)

I spent the rest of the Spring and all of this Summer waking up a couple of hours early so I could get past the crying before our son got up. My husband knew this. It's only been in the last couple of weeks that I've moved from crying EVERY day to crying every other day or so.

It sounds like you just keep injuring yourself over and over again through a desperate attempt to stay in a relationship that your husband really doesn't seem to see as worth saving.

 

For *your* well-being, you should leave him. Your son is your number 1 priority, and if you are an emotional wreck like this, you are no good to him. You marriage is also not a good example to have your son try to model one day. So I say it's time to leave him. Let you son see an strong woman who doesn't have frequent crying jags and "stomach aches" that last for months. So you've managed to go a whole day without crying. From getting used to the emotional abuse? How horrible. I can't even think of how painful it would be to stay in such a self-destructive relationship. Whether your husband really loves you or not, he has chosen, repeatedly, to hurt you. This is not an act of love or respect. And you son will be watching how he treats women. Even if you think you are shielding your son, children are very good at the subliminal stuff and pick up on the vibes and nuances that their parents broadcast. Do you want him to grow up treating women the way your husband has treated you? Do you want him to see marriage as a shaky relationship where spouses cheat and people spend months crying about the hurt and pain the marriage causes? Of course not. You need distance. And if you make the distance, your sorry-assed husband will come crawling back to you, using every button and string he has learned about you so you'll take him back. Don't. He's had how many chances now? They say it's a sign of insanity to keep repeating the same failed method over and over again the same way and expecting each time to have it turn out differently. I think this could also apply to relationships. It's addictive behavior. And in this case, it sounds like both of you have the problem with addiction to bad habits, drama, misplaced sense of love, self-abuse, and using sex to fill an emptiness.

 

Sorry for the anger leaking into the post. I am angry. A little at myself remembering how I went through similar things (though not for so long), and looking back on it now I realize I only lost valuable time in my life I'll never get back, quality time lost with my daughter, damage to my health and career, and so much more. Don't make the same mistake. I don't waste time anymore on men who haven't reached a minimum level of maturity.

[sugar-rae]

My heart aches so much for you, TD! I feel your pain and when you mentioned the Walmart episode and just crying for sooooo long, I felt it all inside me for you, Honey.

 

What is it about Walmart anyway? Not to get angry for a moment. My confrontation with my H's exOW was there. I said basically what I wanted to and my H & I weren't on steady ground then, so it was hard talking and being brave about our relationship at that point.

 

To see the OW with something my H wore... my stomach twists.

 

You have to do what's best for You, your family. I've read from your latest post your H is seeing how the A has affected you. That's good! When the cheating spouse can actually look at you and see this, it's a start. I speak from experience on this.

 

My H had to SEE the physical and mental toll the A had/has taken on me before he finally got it. "Hey! This hurt her!"

 

I look at him differently now. Lying was a big thing, during the A and after it about the A, details. Some ppl don't want to know anything. I did. I'd been made to feel like I was worthless, ugly, sexless, not loveable. Nobody deserves that.

 

I don't know if anything I've said will make you feel better or worse. I'm just totally on your side.

 

Keep us up to date, please!