At what point do you give up?

[ZA Dater]

I just think that I am not going to get this right if

 

 

1: I am shy

2: Lack confidence

3: Lack experience

4: The person across from me is going to judge me for all of those

5: I don't find the person attractive.

 

 

Its all good and well to tell me to go for older, to go for less attractive but going out with those people just elicits a "why am I bothering with this" feeling from me.

 

 

Ultimately I need to get rid of issues 1-3 to actually have any hope of finding organic success but again would I really bother if I knew I had better choices with something contrived?

[JuneL]

Interesting you mention this because yes the club I administer has given me a boost of sorts, its not really very useful for dating but it has given me a confidence boost. People ask why I call out dating coaches for profiteering using no science, its because of this one size fits all advice which frankly does not work.

 

^^^ That’s exactly the response I expected from ZA Dater

[elaine567]

I just think that I am not going to get this right if

1: I am shy

2: Lack confidence

3: Lack experience

4: The person across from me is going to judge me for all of those

5: I don't find the person attractive.

Ultimately I need to get rid of issues 1-3 to actually have any hope of finding organic success but again would I really bother if I knew I had better choices with something contrived?

Yes, but just because you pay for her to date you, doesn't mean she is not judging you. Of course she will be judging you. Do you really think a paid date/escort is not going to judge you?

Getting rid of 1-3 needs to be your primary goal. It is the only path to long term success.

[JuneL]

Yes JuneL, I did read that, and quite a few other threads too. This isn't about the quality of the advice given LS in case you took that personally...

 

All I am saying is that someone who lives in Capetown or has better insight into the cultural/society scene there may help better. Not a dating coach, not a friend, not a date who would give him feedback...

 

A comunity group type of thing who would provide support in the flesh on tap beyond 'dating'. Maybe like a local drama / theatre group?

 

I'm just thinking out loud for OP's benefit, really, like every other poster here.

 

“That's pretty much the direction I am headed.”

 

^^^ That’s ZA Dater’s response to your suggestion. I didn’t realize you suggested him to pay girls for dates

[littleblackheart]

Me neither, tbh...

 

Ah well. Never mind.

[ZA Dater]

Yes, but just because you pay for her to date you, doesn't mean she is not judging you. Of course she will be judging you. Do you really think a paid date/escort is not going to judge you?

Getting rid of 1-3 needs to be your primary goal. It is the only path to long term success.

 

 

 

Yes the difference is I can just turn the entire thing into business and conduct the entire "date" as a meeting. I'll know its business and nothing more so I wont need to actually offer up any even vaguely believable background about me. I am fairly good at conducting business meetings but again the value add with this is very poor.

 

 

At least with this I get to choose, which I currently cannot do.

 

 

Ultimately I'd need to offer up something that someone I like would like in order for them to look past 1-3 but so far its clear trying to be a good person isn't really enough.

 

 

There is no real "I should go out with him" draw about me, I known this for a while so I have tried to find this but the more I look at what people may like the more ambiguous the whole thing becomes.

[Normm]

advice which frankly does not work.

 

Its not an idea I particularly like

 

I certainly cannot.

 

All of these responses from ZA to posters offering good advice reminds me of a group science experiment I did way back in college. It was a term project spread out over many weeks, we had to pick a topic and do experiments and provide results. It counted about 50% of the entire term grade if I recall. So me and my lab buddies chose one of the lab rats in the cage- it seemed to be different then the others, sort of kept to itself, and had some quirkiness about it but did things that made it clear it was intelligent, moreso than the rest.

 

We put it into a maze we designed- the only way out was to make a few right turns, I think the magic number was 3, but it could have been 4. So we placed the rat in the middle of the cage and watched and waited. Surprisingly, the rat only made left turns, it NEVER made a right turn and got itself more and more lost in the maze!

 

One day we came into the lab room and the rat looked so sad and dejected in the middle of the maze, the poor thing was hopelessly lost, so we decided to help it out even though we were cheating a bit. We put a few bits of cheese on some of the right turns. After a few more weeks we noticed the rat making the right turn and nibbling the cheese, but inexplicably it went right back to the left turns again and remained hopelessly lost in the maze!

 

So one of my lab buddies who was working late one night got really frustrated and threw his lab papers and a pen on top of the maze and stormed out of the room. The next day we were shocked to find that the rat had grabbed the pen and pencil which landed very close to him and wrote "Please help me out of this maze I am so sad and lonely and want to get back to the real world!"

 

So we drew arrows at all the correct right turns, in bright orange neon paint, and placed more cheese on the right turns and wrote back to the rat "Follow the arrows and make the right turns and follow the cheese and you will be free!". And we left the rat to itself to figure it out, but could barely wait until the next day when we went back to the lab room to see the rat finally free.

 

Alas, the rat was still right smack in the middle of the maze, no further along than he was before, despite all our assistance! On the note pad the rat had written "Sorry I cannot get out of the maze, I am not the type of rat who makes right turns, it's just not something I can do, and it wouldn't work even if I tried. Besides, even if I got out of this maze into the real world all the other rats are mean and why should I try so hard to get out, they should come in here with me! If I am stuck in this maze for all eternity, than so be it!"

 

We brought our results to the next science fair and people would come by our table and without always reading the test results would say "Why doesn't the rat just make a few right turns and get out of there?". To which we would respond "That's a great question, for some reason the rat is unable to process alternate ways of doing things and keeps repeating the exact same behaviors even though it's clearly miserable".

 

I don't know what ever happened to the rat, he was still right there in the middle of the maze the last time I checked on him on the way to my graduation.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Normm

[NuevoYorko]

I just think that I am not going to get this right if

 

 

1: I am shy

2: Lack confidence

3: Lack experience

4: The person across from me is going to judge me for all of those

 

That's not really what's happening. Nobody cares about that stuff. They have to be interested in you and find you attractive. Lots of women like shy guys and there are plenty of women who are happy to show an inexperienced guy the ropes - as long as they like him and find him attractive.

 

5: I don't find the person attractive.

Just like they have to find you attractive.

 

You're frustrating.

[ZA Dater]

That's not really what's happening. Nobody cares about that stuff. They have to be interested in you and find you attractive. Lots of women like shy guys and there are plenty of women who are happy to show an inexperienced guy the ropes - as long as they like him and find him attractive.

 

Just like they have to find you attractive.

 

You're frustrating.

 

 

 

I have always been fairly fit but I decided to step things up a level. If it works great if not I am a healthier person than I was when I started. If nothing else one can always be assured the looks will help a bit, hopefully.

 

 

If not well, I can be quite fit and then use economics to contrive dates. Both these idea are far preferable than continuing with the current status quo of unattractive to me/un attractive matches.

 

 

Probably the issue is I know exactly what I like and most of that is an intangible combination of looks and personality.

[Blanco]

Another one of these threads? That reminds me, it's time for me to change my water filter.

[littleblackheart]

Probably the issue is I know exactly what I like and most of that is an intangible combination of looks and personality.

 

So like most everyone else?

[NuevoYorko]

 

Probably the issue is I know exactly what I like and most of that is an intangible combination of looks and personality.

 

Sounds like you have a very narrow and specific range. You're going to need to find a woman who is within those parameters and whose narrow and specific range is exactly you.

 

Most of us have a more flexible idea of what we find appealing in people we date; for example, I am drawn to pale redheads with dancer type bodies, but my most recent relationship is with a Latina who is zaftig. I am not settling. This woman has triggered a big attraction in me, both to the way she looks and the essence of her personality and character.

 

I realize that this kind of thing can't be forced. Since you are incapable of finding beauty and intrigue in any women besides some kind of cookie cutter image you have already established as "it" in your head, you are at a disadvantage.

[some_username1]

Sounds like you have a very narrow and specific range. You're going to need to find a woman who is within those parameters and whose narrow and specific range is exactly you.

 

Most of us have a more flexible idea of what we find appealing in people we date; for example, I am drawn to pale redheads with dancer type bodies, but my most recent relationship is with a Latina who is zaftig. I am not settling. This woman has triggered a big attraction in me, both to the way she looks and the essence of her personality and character.

 

I realize that this kind of thing can't be forced. Since you are incapable of finding beauty and intrigue in any women besides some kind of cookie cutter image you have already established as "it" in your head, you are at a disadvantage.

 

Exactly, it's like saying you will only drive a car if it's a certain model of Ferrari....but you can't afford a Ferrari now and probably never will. I mean, it's your life and your choice so fair enough but don't complain about it so bloody much.

 

That's why I get so frustrated with OP's mindset, how can he complain so bitterly about how (essentially) *his own choices are holding him back?*. It beggars belief at times.

[thefooloftheyear]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being highly selective...What's wrong is then complaining that its too hard to find available women...

 

TFY

[Normm]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being highly selective...What's wrong is then complaining that its too hard to find available women...

 

TFY

 

It's not wrong to complain that it's too hard to find available women. It's not wrong to blame everyone else for one's dating failures by saying he shouldn't have to try so hard, and they should put more effort in.

 

"Futile" is a better word for it.

 

It's all part of the "victim mentality" where a person points the finger at everyone else because hey, they're the ones being reasonable, the problem is with everybody else. Meanwhile, ZA is metaphorically sitting alone dangling his feet in the water while the boat full of happy partiers has pulled away from the dock. He's telling himself that he doesn't care and they're all mean and they don't try hard enough to meet him, and the one or two people on the boat he might find acceptable as a potential dating partner wouldn't be interested in him so why bother.

 

The only one who pays the price for such irrational, self defeating, non productive behavior is ZA. And those of us who continue to follow and post on his threads.

[ZA Dater]

Most of us have a more flexible idea of what we find appealing in people we date; for example, I am drawn to pale redheads with dancer type bodies, but my most recent relationship is with a Latina who is zaftig. I am not settling. This woman has triggered a big attraction in me, both to the way she looks and the essence of her personality and character.

 

I realize that this kind of thing can't be forced. Since you are incapable of finding beauty and intrigue in any women besides some kind of cookie cutter image you have already established as "it" in your head, you are at a disadvantage.

 

 

 

I am extremely inflexible in what I don't want and don't like. Its very difficult to give an example of this but I either connect well intellectually with someone or I don't and this is the inherent problem. The yoga instructor was really good, spent essentially 3 days with her and enjoyed all of that time because we connected well.

 

 

There is no cookie cutter image in my head but I absolutely know what I don't want. Unfortunately what I do like is very, very hard to get because there is massive level of competition and I do not have the experience to compete. What yoga lady did allow me to do is to experience some form of platonic success, I had never taken a date to a party before, hadn't danced in ten years, never just decided to leave work for an impromptu lunch on the beach with her.

 

 

The same is true of the other people I liked, somewhere in the interaction with them I experienced something new, something different which made the entire interaction fun and memorable. It could have been a simple thing like going to lunch with any of them.

[BaileyB]

All of which is true barring the highlighted portion. I don't really care much for the general crowd.

 

ZADater, it doesn’t really matter whether you do or do not care about the opinion of the general crowd. You are missing the point - none of what Elaine said was particularly positive. And you agreed, that it is an accurate reflection of you and your goals related to dating. Think about that.

[littleblackheart]

I am extremely inflexible in what I don't want and don't like.

 

You're no different to anyone else. Your standards are not crazy high, and most people I know have their own variation of that too.

 

Your pb is not your standards or inflexibility.

 

My exH is super inflexibile on the 'type' he likes and is never single. Plenty of people have a specific type and manage to find a partner just fine too.

 

If I recall, you were hung up on one specific person, never mind a type. If that's still the case, that for sure would make near impossible for you to find someone who compares in your eyes.

[chillii]

yeah fully agree , lmo your an idiot if you aren't super picky, well if it's a real relationship you want anyway. l only ever went for a very unusual one in a million thing , zero interest in anyone else, never was a problem.

 

He's problem seems to be when he does meet that one, they don't want him back, Well , that happens to everyone.

But like l suggested l think first thread l ever saw, and so many others have too, you really gotta loosen up a bit za and be prepared to try too, go out on a limb when you do meet her, put out the best you at the time otherwise even if she does like you back to start , a downer is a real turn off and it won't be long before it happens again,

lmo it's that kinda inflexibility that brings you undone.

Everyone turns it up a notch girls or guys when it's someone they really like, it's not fake it's excitement and yeah sure , wanting to have a good time and hoping they like ya back, so what, that's the mating game in nature or in humans.

l'd take yoga's tip and change your hair too, could be a good thing there, the present style could be making you look even more of that rigid ZA thing.

Edited May 8, 2019 by chillii

[ZA Dater]

.

But like l suggested l think first thread l ever saw, and so many others have too, you really gotta loosen up a bit za and be prepared to try too, go out on a limb when you do meet her, put out the best you at the time otherwise even if she does like you back to start , a downer is a real turn off and it won't be long before it happens again,

lmo it's that kinda inflexibility that brings you undone.

Everyone turns it up a notch girls or guys when it's someone they really like, it's not fake it's excitement and yeah sure , wanting to have a good time and hoping they like ya back, so what, that's the mating game in nature or in humans.

 

 

 

I agree with much of this, really I do. Unfortunately very few people actually give me that level of "excitement" because I have already decided what is gettable and what is not. However I prefer the "what is not" because, well I always prefer the hardest possible challenge so I work on trying that and try to get myself to some sort of level where maybe they would actually look at me. Which is fine BUT the demotivating part is when I look at the guys they chase and then I look at me, well we aren't even remotely alike.

 

 

I admit it I have a certain dislike of the outgoing, fun, happy go lucky sort of guy because they do get the girls I generally want, do I wish I could be that, sometimes yes but I live a world of reality, largely governed by objectives rather than emotions. Sure I do try, like I did with the yoga girl, like I tried with K, like I tried with around 5 or so others. Why objectives and not emotions, because that way I don't get rejected. But of course that cuts both ways, ladies want some sort of warmth, fun and generally I cant give them either of those things.

 

 

The way I see it you need to take a lot of risk at dating and sure I am happy to take a risk if I can see some prospect of success but yesterday the very fit gym lady I saw at the coffee shop, I thought about chatting to her, well I am glad I didn't because 30 min later her husband arrived. There I would have taken massive risk with no discernible benefit.

 

 

What continually irks me is guys are expected to make all the moves, accept all the risk and I think some ladies take great delight in rejecting guys, in fact a good example of this is the horse ride who is trying to "help me", her advice go out with anyone to get "experience", for her my lack of experience combined with dour personality is a deal killer.

[ZA Dater]

If I recall, you were hung up on one specific person, never mind a type. If that's still the case, that for sure would make near impossible for you to find someone who compares in your eyes.

 

 

 

Not really, that ship has sailed so that's done. What the problem is, fewer and fewer people are available, those who are fall into three categories

1: those I absolutely have no chance with

2: those I absolutely don't want.

3: those who like me but tick none of my boxes at all

 

 

Yoga lady, that was living vicariously for a few days, sure she was using me to an extent but I actually didn't mind for the attention I got. Likewise to some extent the horse riding lady because she is physically attractive. The various models I have interacted with, again living vicariously and that's the thing when you do the vicarious thing ordinary just feels too ordinary.

 

 

The flip side of this, lets say any of the above actually did like me, I'd be forced to actually change to raise my game to actually keep it going, as it stands now, there is no real motivation to do anything differently.

[JuneL]

Me neither, tbh...

 

Ah well. Never mind.

 

Hey littleblackheart, my previous few posts might have a bit of sarcasm (though they are by no means nearly as sarcastic as many other posts in this thread ).

 

I am not sure if you use a bit of sarcasm in your communication at all. Sorry if my posts have caused misunderstanding.