BaileyB Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) If that is the case, then why hurry getting divorced? Good point. No rush to make any drastic changes. As they say, misery loves company. Continue on... Edited May 21, 2019 by BaileyB Link to post Share on other sites
jkf1523 Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 I don't want to leave him because I'm lonely, I want to leave him because the marriage is over and I want us both to be happy. I've gone so far as to tell him that if he wants to have an affair he has my support because I want him to find joy in life. I have plenty of friends, I work part time while the kids are in school because we made the joint decision that what is best for the kids is for me to be here for them. All I'm looking for is anyone else in a similar situation and how they cope. I think forever is a long time to live without love. Either you try harder to find the feelings you both have when you first met or be brave in walking away. I am sure he will need to support all of you. Just try to find the love back first. Take care. Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 I know we're not setting a great example for our child to follow when she grows up but that ship has long since sailed. Your child will know. They notice everything. That's what my daughter told me. They are not stupid. I did the same. I stayed. I'm still here, but not for long... last child leaving shortly... all in all, I think I did the right thing. Other people might disagree, but they don't know our dynamics. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 We are both fat and ugly middle aged people with not so great chances of finding much better partners among those out there on the market, mostly divorcees with kids on tow and other baggage. This made me laugh... Exactly. I don't plan to have another relationship. Maybe a friendship with benefits if I'm lucky enough... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Post divorce, I'm planning to settle down to living a quiet life alone and focusing on my hobbies. Yes... I might buy a house by the sea. Quiet life, focusing on myself after years and years of giving with little in return... Link to post Share on other sites
AMarriedMan Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) Your child will know. They notice everything. That's what my daughter told me. They are not stupid. I did the same. I stayed. I'm still here, but not for long... last child leaving shortly... all in all, I think I did the right thing. Other people might disagree, but they don't know our dynamics. Know what? What kids normally don't know about or even want to is their parents' sex life. Our daughter has heard some of our arguments. I wouldn't expect her not to know that we have argued or what things we have argued about. What she's definitely aware of is the overall emotional climate in the home. She's most likely aware of certain resentments both my wife and I have for each other. Now, it would've been ideal for her for us to life more harmoniously. But, frankly, I find the idea that the way to fix that is to get a divorce and find partners to have better relationships with ridiculous. You get a divorce because your marriage is unbearable and demonstrably beyond repair. You don't get a divorce to create an opportunity for your children or anybody else to learn anything. Also, building a relationship with a new partner is a complicated matter. To go through that involves a lot of variables and unknowns that are well beyond your control. That cannot be stressed enough. The whole notion of marrying a second time one major purpose for it being to teach your kid how a proper marriage looks like is preposterous. You marry someone because you want to create a family with that person and that reason alone. One more thing. The reason you have bad or failed relationships in the first place is usually, not always, a result of you having some type of issue that's causing you to be a magnet for the wrong kind of people or to pick them out yourself. Only about a half of the population has what is called a secure attachment style. The rest suffer from an insecure attachment style that can manifest in various ways. That's an example of a major issue that may require extensive work to address. For a lot of people in bad marriages, getting a divorce and finding a new partner won't fix anything because fault lies at least partly in themselves. Edited May 21, 2019 by AMarriedMan Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 You don't get a divorce to create an opportunity for your children or anybody else to learn anything. Lots of people think that! Give your kids a good example and divorce... To me, showing them that you are sticking around, working on the marriage despite the problems, is the correct thing to do. Obviously, you need to have some common ground and the relationship must be bearable. This is how it was for us. I think I've done my duty, as a husband and a father. They will all be out of the house in a few months and I can rebuild my life. I don't have a specific goal. I just want to concentrate on myself, for once. Link to post Share on other sites
AMarriedMan Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Lots of people think that! Give your kids a good example and divorce... I think that's just people rationalizing their choices in many cases. But as I've said earlier, different people have different circumstances. To me, showing them that you are sticking around, working on the marriage despite the problems, is the correct thing to do. Obviously, you need to have some common ground and the relationship must be bearable. This is how it was for us. I think I've done my duty, as a husband and a father. They will all be out of the house in a few months and I can rebuild my life. I don't have a specific goal. I just want to concentrate on myself, for once. To be honest, what many of those people are against is giving up on a marriage but still staying. The idea is that one should never settle for an unsatisfactory relationship but work on it and if that fails, get a divorce and try anew with someone else. The premise of that approach is the idea that relationships are what make life living for and that one should never settle for an unsatisfactory one, or worse, set a bad example for your kids by doing that because doing so is violating a norm they have set for themselves. That line of thinking is based on the pursuit of personal happiness. Under that paradigm, settling for anything less than one's own happiness is an anathema. One should reach for the stars in one's own personal context and not settle for anything sub-optimal. That is how a lot of people think in an individualistic post religious society. People who subscribe to that ideology do not tend to get angry or intolerant when they hear about someone not living their lives according to their own philosophy. In that sense, they're better than religious conservatives or other collectivists. What they feel is pity. What I think is that matters like this can only be judged on a case-by-case basis. Once you have children, their interests should have first priority. That view is also shared by the liberal individualists, which is why you get justifications like "you should always get a divorce instead of settling for an unsatisfactory marriage in order to set a good example for your children". Behavior actually aimed at advancing selfish goals is sometimes justified by appealing to the best interests of the children. But as I said, these are matters always best judged case-by-case. Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 But as I said, these are matters always best judged case-by-case. I agree... lots of people are very quick at jumping to conclusions. True, we are here to vent and get useful advice, but it's irritating when we keep hearing the same mantra over and over again. My job as a father and husband is nearly finished. I have been told many times to leave but I'm still here, because it's not time yet. It will be soon. A bit scary but also liberating. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 I agree... lots of people are very quick at jumping to conclusions. True, we are here to vent and get useful advice, but it's irritating when we keep hearing the same mantra over and over again. Not pointing a finger at you, but I'll gently suggest some posters bring this on themselves by complaining about how lousy, lonely and debilitating their sexless situation is. Hard to have it both ways - if "staying for the kids" is such a noble cause, then one has to accept the end justifies the means. It would be like having a priest complain about celibacy. When your partner takes intimacy permanently off the table, both the rules and your subsequent choices are pretty clear... Mr. Lucky 2 Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Not pointing a finger at you Mr. Lucky, I'm talking about staying when the marriage is still a marriage, not two "friends" parenting together. There are limits. Since my wife has taken sex off the table unilaterally, to me it's not a marriage anymore and there is nothing to salvage. This being unacceptable to me, I'm leaving. If this happened 10 years ago, i would have left 10 years ago. As I said, if the marriage is still bearable, I'm all for staying and I did that, although I complained a lot, I must admit... I did stay to "complete" my "mission". I believe my wife has timed this very carefully... kudos to her... Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 If this happened 10 years ago, i would have left 10 years ago. The difference between yours and the type of situation I was describing. Hope any change brings you closer to what you want... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Hope any change brings you closer to what you want... I hope so too... but I'm not sure what I want anymore. Just peace and quiet, I guess... Link to post Share on other sites
Turning point Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 (edited) I'm now officially divorced, some 10-15 years after many people on this forum would have urged it. Certainly my children were a concern for me, as was my own happiness. However, I found that my happiness is a trailer towed by my self-respect and coming to terms with how utterly selfish and abusive my spouse was allowed me to measure things more appropriately. My spouse stood only between me and a fulfilling marital relationship. The things I really valued in life were already my own. My children, my home, my lifestyle, my job, my extended family, etc. I cannot say that my spouse was a good or reliable mother, and yet there's nothing about the courts or divorce that would address those issues. All of that continued in divorce, and will persist in the future. What was required and what truly mattered to me was my presence and constancy in helping my children navigate that dysfunction on a daily basis. Certainly I deprived myself of the possibility of some other more fulfilling romantic relationship all of those years, but I pursued what I love most and what gave me the greatest satisfaction and bond with my children. Divorce was not going to make my life or their life any better, it was simply a way to hand the power of my life over to other people and a disinterested process. In hindsight and having experienced the divorce process I made the best choice for us. Divorce is a legal change, and in that regard the clock was always ticking. Divorce dissolves the legally enforceable entitlements of marriage - meaning it simply severs the action of law upon our assets and person. It can change the terms but not the problems. It's true that we deserve to be happy, though I think so many people are too blind to recognize what that even means in their own lives. I didn't "stay for my kids." I stayed because there was hard work to be done, only one person who would do it, and yes - happiness still to be found amid the endeavor sans any acknowledgement from a marital partner. I'm happy to be me. Infidelity did not appear to make my spouse any happier, and none of those relationships have survived. The number of people I meet 2 or more times divorce also doesn't speak well to whatever it was they thought would make them happy. That pursuit seems never ending. The OP cites loneliness as a root of her pain. However, being alone and being lonely are too very different things and I would suggest that her issue is not "staying for the kids' rather one should ask: "can I stand to stay with myself for any period of time? Because, in the end this is what is really required to find happiness. Loneliness is most acute when we unearth a truth about ourselves, our partner, or our relationship that we were previously and blissfully unaware of. In every case we face the truth that we are not as we believed ourselves to be. Divorce doesn't solve that problem. It's at best, a door we may eventually pass through on the path to being who we truly are. Edited May 27, 2019 by Turning point 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 I stayed because there was hard work to be done, only one person who would do it, and yes - happiness still to be found amid the endeavor sans any acknowledgement from a marital partner. I'm going to take your statements at face value and assume you're the rare individual who didn't let the unhappiness, resentment, arguments and drama spill over into your everyday family life. If so congratulations, you're 1 in a 100. The real question for most disaffected spouses and their children is this - is the disruption divorce represents better than the dysfunction brought by a broken marriage? Unless you have the grace of Mother Teresa, diplomatic skills of Kissinger and acting chops of De Niro, the answer for the majority is "yes". As has been often said, better two happy homes than one emotionally toxic one... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
AMarriedMan Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 As has been often said, better two happy homes than one emotionally toxic one... Mr. Lucky That's a false dichotomy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Turning point Posted May 27, 2019 Share Posted May 27, 2019 (edited) I'm going to take your statements at face value and assume you're the rare individual who didn't let the unhappiness, resentment, arguments and drama spill over into your everyday family life. If so congratulations, you're 1 in a 100. Statistically, (U.S.) I'm more like 1 in 10,000. The kind of broken home you describe requires two dysfunctional people intertwined in a game where each holds the other responsible for their own happiness. Divorce, infidelity, et. al. in that instance is simply the act of elevating the game to a duel. It takes only one mature, competent adult with good coping skills to find happiness and stability amid dysfunction. It's a 100 times more rare than you think. IMHO, "staying for the children" is not the OP's mandate because her kids aren't the ones facing the problem she cites. Her husband is a "good man and good father" but, she's not happy. Not. His. Fault. Ladies, even Disney has changed their story lines: The Prince is not the source of her happiness. She's the one in charge of her own happiness. Neither divorce or martyrdom will grant anyone what they already deny themselves. If we are "staying for the kids" than the problem we want to resolve must be owned by those kids. Likewise, if you are divorcing for the kids than the benefit must also belong to those kids. I think the OP is happy enough to stay, just not proud enough to own it. Edited May 27, 2019 by Turning point Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Likewise, if you are divorcing for the kids than the benefit must also belong to those kids. Agreed. I think you're also short-selling the effect of a parent's emotional well-being on the children. Certainly, each situation with it's own unique circumstances, no one-size-fits-all... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Turning point Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I think you're also short-selling the effect of a parent's emotional well-being on the children. No, I'm placing the responsibility for that emotional well being squarely where it belongs - on the person who would abdicate it to someone else. Leaving to find "happiness" is a lie. At best, we leave for self-actualization which, had we been fully informed or mature when we married we would have already been practicing. The so called "good divorce" [excluding abuse] occurs only in about 1 out of 10 cases. "No fault" divorce is a misnomer, it is in those other 9 cases a unilateral divorce imposed by one party upon another and often for selfish reason. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
norudder Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 No, I'm placing the responsibility for that emotional well being squarely where it belongs - on the person who would abdicate it to someone else. Leaving to find "happiness" is a lie. At best, we leave for self-actualization which, had we been fully informed or mature when we married we would have already been practicing. The so called "good divorce" [excluding abuse] occurs only in about 1 out of 10 cases. "No fault" divorce is a misnomer, it is in those other 9 cases a unilateral divorce imposed by one party upon another and often for selfish reason. I agree our happiness is not the responsibility of spouses, marriage is not meant to"make" us happy. It can give us stability in life, with kids or without, from which we can pursue happiness (within the terms agreed of course). Self actualization can be an ongoing journey and one that can occur within a relationship, especially when the choice is repeatedly made to grow together for the relationship. I don't think it's necessarily an end state. However, a healthy person and an unhealthy person is still an unhealthy situation and can absolutely affect a person's happiness level when every day is requiring effort to counteract negativity to maintain the happiness equilibrium. It is different being at work and in the world vs the environment at home. Home is where we are most intimate and vulnerable, it's where family dynamics are modeled, who we share that space with and how it is shared matters. I don't see the positives from the level of compartmentalization, detachment or faking it required to continue in an unhealthy marriage. Maybe it's just a matter of differently weighed values. Also, please consider sometimes it is the one not wanting the divorce that is selfishly motivated. Many people want to stay and get what they can get without contribution. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
stillafool Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 . I'm just looking to see if others are in a similar situation and how they've coped. I doubt very many people on this forum who are married, not in an affair and are just staying for the kids. Since you have told your husband he can see other women I guess the only thing you can do now is have an open marriage until the kids go off to school and then divorce. It always confuses me when people say they are staying for the children and then want to divorce after they've left home as if it will hurt them less. Link to post Share on other sites
AMarriedMan Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) I don't see the positives from the level of compartmentalization, detachment or faking it required to continue in an unhealthy marriage. Sometimes people are forced to choose from two evils. I think Turning point explained in one of his messages that a key reason why he stayed was because he felt his children were better off with him in the picture than being left to deal with the dysfunction of their mother alone. It would be logical to assume that that presupposes he would not have been likely to a) win residential custody, b) even though he may eventually have been successful at that but at the cost of a custody battle traumatic to the children or c) not have been in a position to have residential custody of the children to himself for one reason or another. If the spouses are both sound and well-meaning people who have their act together in all the important ways but who just don't get along as a couple and have a toxic dynamic, then it might obviously be a good choice for them to get a divorce. I think I know one such couple. One friend of my daughter's parents didn't get along and they divorced at some point. From what I've seen, both of them were quite capable parents and they lived very close to each other after the divorce. They got along so well that they'd sit down and celebrate New Year together as a family. I was there with my daughter. After a couple of years, the father met another woman with kids from a previous relationship and they bought a house. My daughter has new friends now because we have moved, so I have no clue as to how they are getting along now. But the thing is that now that the father is living with his new woman, there is an added dynamic brought by the father's new spouse and her kids that is completely out of control of the original couple (and their kids). Suddenly, there is a web of direct and indirect interactions that affects everyone that wasn't there at all at first. If my memory serves me correctly, Turning point's wife was unfaithful to him at least once. If the men she's had her extramarital relationships with have been the type of men that you don't want around your kids, then that is another reason why staying for the kids might make sense. (He hasn't said anything that might suggest this to the the case.) One thing to think about is that if you want to keep your kids away from witnessing relationship dysfunction, then releasing a spouse into the wild who is at a risk of introducing just that into the lives of your children might not be a desirable thing. Now, you may think that perhaps if you find a new spouse to have a good relationship with and to model that for your children, it may happen that a toxic ex-spouse may want to ruin that and successfully at that. What I'm saying is that when you make a decision to end a marriage, it may not necessarily solve anything because when you have minor children in the picture, a clean break is impossible. There are many factors to consider. Edited May 28, 2019 by AMarriedMan Link to post Share on other sites
norudder Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 presupposes he would not have been likely to a) win residential custody, b) even though he may eventually have been successful at that but at the cost of a custody battle traumatic to the children or c) not have been in a position to have residential custody of the children to himself for one reason or another. There are many factors to consider. Valid points, especially above. I mayve made different choices if custody issues had been a battle. And as Mr Lucky said, not one size fits all. Hope OP can find best way forward for her situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I don't see the positives from the level of compartmentalization, detachment or faking it required to continue in an unhealthy marriage. Agreed, since that continuance is often based on the assumption you'll somehow fool those closest to you, children included. If you talk to adult children from "stayed for the kids" marriages, doubt their feedback reflects successful deception... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
AMarriedMan Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 If you talk to adult children from "stayed for the kids" marriages, doubt their feedback reflects successful deception... Mr. Lucky Why do you think deceiving anybody has to have anything to do with this? Link to post Share on other sites
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