Staying for Kids

[Mr. Lucky]

Why do you think deceiving anybody has to have anything to do with this?

 

You’re honest with the kids about how things are between you and you wife? They know your plan is to divorce when the last one leaves home?

 

Mr. Lucky

[AMarriedMan]

You’re honest with the kids about how things are between you and you wife? They know your plan is to divorce when the last one leaves home?

Mr. Lucky

 

The details of the relationship between my wife and I are none of my daughter's business. I will not burden her by pouring my heart out to her. That would be inappropriate. But I'm also not putting on a show of any kind. She senses what she senses between us. What she's witnessing is a mostly a stable family environment where there are established routines, mostly friendly conversations between my wife and myself but some arguing from time to time, too. We regularly exchange good night kisses in front of our daughter. My wife and I do not fight all the time or even every month. We have our daily, weekly and annual routines. Healthy routines are the backbone of security for a child. It's just that the romantic spark between my wife and I is no longer there. We also have certain long-standing and unresolved disagreements about how to manage our finances. And I don't like certain aspects of my wife's behavior and personality and vice versa.

 

I have no definite plans to initiate divorce. But I strongly suspect that my wife will. But who knows, she may decide differently and change her behavior, if I talk to her. I will try to but that will have to come from a position of strength and not from a position where, in case of failure, I stand to lose access to my child knowing that she will be subject to certain types of mild neglect on part of her mother if she were to gain physical custody of her. The way my wife manages to take care of our daughter has been improving as she has become older and more independent, though. It would be sub-optimal even if I had physical custody of our daughter. My wife seems to be better able to connect with our daughter on an emotional level.

 

I'm not depriving myself of an opportunity to have a fulfilling romantic relationship with a woman by not divorcing my wife and seeking out a new relationship. That's because I'm never going to enter into one again. What I've learned about myself is that I'm not cut out for romantic relationships. I do not want to be subject to anybody else's bull**** or expose anyone else to mine. It will be better that way. When I was much younger, it was common for me to remain single much longer than I was comfortable with. I know what it's like to be without a partner for years. It will probably not be anywhere near as bad as it was when I was in my late teens and in my twenties without too much life experience and with raging hormones.

 

For a couple to retain the spark until death at old age happens more rarely than it fails to happen. Lifelong monogamy is very, very hard work. I suspect we're not even built for that as a species because for the vast majority of our evolutionary history, our life expectancy in adulthood was much shorter than it is today.

Edited May 29, 2019 by AMarriedMan

[giotto]

It always confuses me when people say they are staying for the children and then want to divorce after they've left home as if it will hurt them less.

 

You stay for the children because you want to finish what you started: being a father to them. When they become independent, they don't need you as much. It's not matter of hurting them less. Kids are not stupid, they know what's going on. You want to help them in the transition. Of course, the marriage has to be sustainable. Two people getting along, being friends. Sometimes, the romantic side of it runs its course. It's a bit of a shame, but it happens. I get it why some people want to stay together until they accomplish their mission. I don't find it strange.

[AMarriedMan]

You stay for the children because you want to finish what you started: being a father to them. When they become independent, they don't need you as much. It's not matter of hurting them less. Kids are not stupid, they know what's going on. You want to help them in the transition. Of course, the marriage has to be sustainable. Two people getting along, being friends. Sometimes, the romantic side of it runs its course. It's a bit of a shame, but it happens. I get it why some people want to stay together until they accomplish their mission. I don't find it strange.

 

Today's prevailing ethos is all about rights, happiness and pleasure. Disgusting. Where's fulfilling your mission despite hardship? Duty and honor?

[BaileyB]

It always confuses me when people say they are staying for the children and then want to divorce after they've left home as if it will hurt them less.

 

I don’t know that it will necessarily hurt this child any more/less if they wait until she is done school... based on what has been shared here, she will have had years to prepare for the eventual end of the marriage. Kids know when their parents are not happy and I have no doubt that this child will be well aware that her parents have “lost the spark” in their marriage. It may actually be a relief for the child when her parents finally divorce.

[giotto]

Today's prevailing ethos is all about rights, happiness and pleasure. Disgusting. Where's fulfilling your mission despite hardship? Duty and honor?

 

I get the "right" to be happy, but I wouldn't be happy without finishing my job. Then I might try to be happy...

[AMarriedMan]

I get the "right" to be happy, but I wouldn't be happy without finishing my job. Then I might try to be happy...

 

What's missing from today's ethos is the importance of meaning. Fulfilling their duty is a big part of meaning for a lot of people. I would hate to bail out on something as important as making sure my is well-looked after in every way - or just being in her life on a daily basis - just so that I would have an opportunity to experience romantic love again.

 

Besides, it doesn't make much sense to try to be happy. The whole notion is misguided. External circumstance do not determine our level of contentment and moments of happiness are fleeting at best. The internal reward system that we all carry around in our heads does not exist for us to stop and rest on our laurels. It exists to keep us moving and obeying the dictates of our DNA, a bunch of molecules. No one else has our best interests in mind but ourselves. Not society and certainly not nature including our own nature.

 

The best you can do is navigate life's challenges, avoid unnecessary pain and try and keep your dignity intact. Happiness is a fortunate byproduct of other things. Chasing after happiness is at best useless and may potentially cause a lot of trouble.

 

Romantic love is no pathway to happiness. It involves some intense moments of happiness but it's more likely to lead to an interesting life rather than a particularly happy one. For some people, romantic love is something they can't imagine living without. Among those people, there are some with minds incapable of finding interest in anything else.

Edited May 29, 2019 by AMarriedMan

[giotto]

 

Romantic love is no pathway to happiness.

 

 

I never looked for romantic love to be happy. I was looking for a person to share my life with. If that involved happiness, good. It did for a bit. Didn't last long, though. Still didn't bail out.

[Mr. Lucky]

What she's witnessing is a mostly a stable family environment where there are established routines, mostly friendly conversations between my wife and myself but some arguing from time to time, too. We regularly exchange good night kisses in front of our daughter. My wife and I do not fight all the time or even every month. We have our daily, weekly and annual routines. Healthy routines are the backbone of security for a child. It's just that the romantic spark between my wife and I is no longer there. We also have certain long-standing and unresolved disagreements about how to manage our finances. And I don't like certain aspects of my wife's behavior and personality and vice versa.

 

And again, I'll suggest you're not nearly as skilled in this regard as you give yourself credit for. The cold war between spouses is the relationship baseline you're setting for your daughter, with consequences extending far beyond today. Doesn't have anything to do with a post-divorce search for "romantic love".

 

AMarriedMan, I get a real sense of your love for your child. Hope decisions are made with all aspects of her present and future in mind...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BaileyB]

AMarriedMan, I get a real sense of your love for your child.

 

Agreed.

 

And if I may... AMarriedMan, it is very clear that you have spent a lot of time examining this situation and you have a firm plan for your family/future. You make some very good points that are presented in a very rational and logical way. It goes without saying, but relationships are not always entirely rational and logical. Loving and intimate relationships can/do not exist without feelings and emotion...

[Prudence V]

It may actually be a relief for the child when her parents finally divorce.

 

My parents stayed together “for the kids”, and divorced when the last one was grown. I don’t know if any of us forgave them for not having the courage to divorce sooner, so that we might have had some chance at a happy enough childhood. Their selfishness left us all very bitter.

[AMarriedMan]

And again, I'll suggest you're not nearly as skilled in this regard as you give yourself credit for.

 

Nobody is putting on a show of any kind. It is what it is.

 

The cold war between spouses is the relationship baseline you're setting for your daughter, with consequences extending far beyond today.

 

To the extent that is true, that ship has already sailed. From what I've read, it's what you live in the middle of until the age of seven or so that becomes your normal.

 

My wife was raised by a single mother. So, no baseline at all and here we are.

 

Doesn't have anything to do with a post-divorce search for "romantic love".

 

Well, some people (not you) have suggested leaving for greener pastures and that it is never too late to find a good model for you kids to copy.

 

AMarriedMan, I get a real sense of your love for your child. Hope decisions are made with all aspects of her present and future in mind...

 

Thank you for your good wishes.

[BaileyB]

To the extent that is true, that ship has already sailed. From what I've read, it's what you live in the middle of until the age of seven or so that becomes your normal.

 

If that is true, then I find that really sad and disheartening.

 

I personally don’t believe it to be true. I wonder if there is a confirmation bias and you are using that as a convenient way to justify your decision. Still, I have no doubt that your child will let you know in the coming years whether your decision to stay was a good one, or not.

 

Best wishes.

Edited May 29, 2019 by BaileyB

[BettyDraper]

Today's prevailing ethos is all about rights, happiness and pleasure. Disgusting. Where's fulfilling your mission despite hardship? Duty and honor?

 

If you can stay together for your kids without exposing them to constant fighting and dragging them into your marital issues, then I don't think that the choice to stay together until your kids are grown is such a terrible decision.

[Orokotikki]

If there aren't major issues: infidelity, divorce, etc.

I think there can be some hope for re-kindling a marriage even after "sticking around for the kids".

 

I don't think it's sad to look forward to hobbies when their gone, and as sex drives change I think some who had planned to divorce might have a second thought and find themselves looking at a more mature love underpinned with friendship, shared hardships, and memories.

 

I think if you are at a tough place in your marriage its OK to 'stay in it for the kids' for a while, but what isn't OK is resigning yourself suffering - deciding you won't be bothered to try for happiness within your marriage, won't try to improve it. It's ok to have moments or periods like that.

 

Let me explain my view best as I can in two ways:

1. Marriages are work, that's definitely true. But having a partner in your life (can) let you do a lot you couldn't otherwise.

In fact, it is much like a car. If you maintain your car, change the oil, tires, get a tune-up now and then, wash the salt off in the winter, then that car will take you thousands and thousands of miles. If you run it into the ground, well sure, it won't get you nearly as far.

 

2. I forget where I heard this, maybe it was Kevin Jackson, I can't recall:

"On a good day, I'm committed to my wife.

On a difficult day, I'm committed to my marriage.

On a really bad day, I'm committed to my commitment."

 

Maybe some people might think that sounds silly, I don't know.

And I won't say I don't believe in divorce, I certainly do.

But its nothing I believe should be undertaken lightly.

 

Now if you have to say, on a really bad day (or year) "I'm committed to my children living with both parents", well I don't hold that against you, cause there's still hope. Sure it means your check engine light is on - may even your temp light, oil light or others, so take some time and see if you can fix one of those. (Although strongly this in case without abuse, infidelity, etc).

 

To be clear, I don't have kids.

And I've had a rough few years in my marriage lately, and divorce is something I need to understand and be prepared for, in my life, to protect myself and my sanity.

 

But my wife was my best friend for years before we dated. We do so much for each other even if we sometimes drive each other a little nuts, or bore each other, or aren't as attractive as someone else. I'd like to see what its like live out my life with my best friend, to navigate or differences, and grow old together. To have what I though we'd already had.

 

And if we got divorced I could find someone new, sure of it, maybe even someone with more shared hobbies or younger or prettier. No doubt.

 

Though hell, I could probably have a great life single too. I have plenty of interests I wish I had more time for.

 

But I wouldn't have the woman I shared all of my 20's with to hold at night. I wouldn't see the woman I spent all of my (so far :-P) 30s with in the morning. The years of little inside jokes that grow. I don't know.

 

Tell yourself you're gonna buy that new car one day, if it makes you feel better, but change that oil, keep the one you're in in good shape. See how high you can get that odometer. If the seat isn't comfy maybe get some new seat covers.

 

Its not sad that you're faced with aging or ennui or not looking for something better than the already good thing you have, but its sad if you let your good thing crumble from neglect.

[Turning point]

I don't see the positives from the level of compartmentalization, detachment or faking it required to continue in an unhealthy marriage.

 

You also don't see the glaring presumption that one person's dysfunction requires another to be fake, or even unhealthy in their own life. They may choose to engage that way, but "unhealthy" is a choice about how you engage with someone. Emotional and psychological self care is part of life. We can practice it just as we do medical self care - a hand-sanitizer for our soul.

 

The OP does not appear to be a candidate for taking this on. First, it's not her kids that are in distress - it's her. She's also on the offensive; boldly declaring there's nothing her husband can do, that he should seek out other women, (which is a trap.) In the meantime she'll live off him and leave when it's to her advantage.

 

IMHO what makes this selfish is that the whole issue of "the children" is a ruse. There's nothing about the husband that requires her to stand in for their benefit. He'll likely remain this same "good father" after divorce. What the OP lacks is a compelling reason for this offensive, and an attainable definition of happiness.

[Destiny Couple]

My take on this if you have not tried any professional help, then that is highly recommended. Simply because, seeing a professional gives you both a chance to see things from a perspective of someone that does this for a living. Does that mean they will be any good? It depends on who you see and in part how open you both in this environment.

 

My question is do you want to end your marriage based on some falling out and/or differences or because of a huge betrayal? It doesn't sound like that your husband has betrayed you or shown any consistent physical violence based off what you have said so far.

 

Would I go so far to say that there are many married couples that feel that their marriage is over and you are in a similar position? Well, things can change and improve. I know as a person that also does this for a living, there is a lot that a couple can consider and work through together. Would love to hear your feedback on this, and your thoughts.

[Cyndyrr327]

I don't want to leave him because I'm lonely, I want to leave him because the marriage is over and I want us both to be happy. I've gone so far as to tell him that if he wants to have an affair he has my support because I want him to find joy in life. I have plenty of friends, I work part time while the kids are in school because we made the joint decision that what is best for the kids is for me to be here for them. All I'm looking for is anyone else in a similar situation and how they cope.

 

What was his reaction to you letting him have an affair?

 

This totally sounds like me a few years ago!! We tried a couple of counseling sessions and it would get better but not for long. My husband had an affair and it was a real eye opener for both of us. It took a while, but we finally found a great counselor and things have really changed! We’ve been in counseling for 3 months (weekly) and things have just taken a turn in the last 2 weeks so it’s not instantaneous!

[schlumpy]

I have enough experience to know how much pleasure, utility and meaning I'm likely to get from relationships, not including my current one, to know that they're probably not worth the effort, which is considerable in terms of finding a suitable partner with mutual attraction between us, and handling the inevitable conflicts that arise from the task of joining two lives together.

 

Very well stated! As I've gotten older I ruefully realized that where once I could contribute 20 percent and get a return of 80 that's now reversed. It makes you reluctant to even get started. Fortunately for me, my wife is truly my better half and we are headed for the finish line together.

 

I'm sorry that you cannot say the same but I read a man of clear purpose, who understands what can be changed and what can't and accepts reality. I have no fear for you.

 

Best wishes to you and your family

[schlumpy]

The whole notion of marrying a second time one major purpose for it being to teach your kid how a proper marriage looks like is preposterous. You marry someone because you want to create a family with that person and that reason alone.

 

I think you should reconsider this thought. When I grew up with the boomer generation there were kids hanging off trees we were so numerous. As friends we would visit each others homes but there was one home that we would all look forward to playing at. It was a home where the parents created a stable rules oriented environment. I had friends where chaos had it's own bedroom and it wasn't comfortable. You can just feel the difference inside of you especially as a child. I do believe that children learn from their parents. How can they not?

 

BTW, why not start your own thread? You obviously have something to share.

[schlumpy]

What's missing from today's ethos is the importance of meaning. Fulfilling their duty is a big part of meaning for a lot of people. I would hate to bail out on something as important as making sure my is well-looked after in every way - or just being in her life on a daily basis - just so that I would have an opportunity to experience romantic love again.

 

Besides, it doesn't make much sense to try to be happy. The whole notion is misguided. External circumstance do not determine our level of contentment and moments of happiness are fleeting at best. The internal reward system that we all carry around in our heads does not exist for us to stop and rest on our laurels. It exists to keep us moving and obeying the dictates of our DNA, a bunch of molecules. No one else has our best interests in mind but ourselves. Not society and certainly not nature including our own nature.

 

The best you can do is navigate life's challenges, avoid unnecessary pain and try and keep your dignity intact. Happiness is a fortunate byproduct of other things. Chasing after happiness is at best useless and may potentially cause a lot of trouble.

 

Romantic love is no pathway to happiness. It involves some intense moments of happiness but it's more likely to lead to an interesting life rather than a particularly happy one. For some people, romantic love is something they can't imagine living without. Among those people, there are some with minds incapable of finding interest in anything else.

 

Please take this post and start your own thread. I like to shoot one bullet at a time but I can see you prefer the shotgun.

[schlumpy]

OP, I would offer my sympathy but I don't think you are looking for that. When I read your posts I get a sense that you an alpha female. You are in control, make the final decisions, and your husband follows along. He doesn't strike me as an equal partner in your mind.

 

You are determined, after due consideration, to carry out your plan since it obviously is best for all concerned. You are intelligent and I like that in a person but intelligence is best served when coupled with compassion and empathy. You may have thought you were being kind as well as pragmatic when you told your husband to find a girl friend but it was anything but.

 

If my wife said that to me, I would immediately realize that she didn't care for me any more than she did about a rats rear end. I would look at life now and what it would be eight years from now when she planned the divorce, keeping in mind that females on average outlive males by 7 years.

 

I would then consult a lawyer to find out what my financial obligations would be if I wait eight more years to divorce. If it turns out that she would get a bigger a piece of the pie, the papers would be delivered the next week. Husbands have to be pragmatic too.

 

Please direct your husband to this forum. I think there are some people who would like to chat with him.

 

Best Wishes to you and your family

[stillafool]

Yes please do advise your husband to visit this forum. I definitely want to chat with him.

[zouz71]

[quote

better two happy homes than one emotionally toxic one...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

There are no two happy homes in Divorce , there could be more two silent homes and peaceful , but never happier for kids especially if they need both parents .

[justavillagegirl]

Mr. Lucky, I'm talking about staying when the marriage is still a marriage, not two "friends" parenting together. There are limits. Since my wife has taken sex off the table unilaterally, to me it's not a marriage anymore and there is nothing to salvage. This being unacceptable to me, I'm leaving. If this happened 10 years ago, i would have left 10 years ago. As I said, if the marriage is still bearable, I'm all for staying and I did that, although I complained a lot, I must admit... I did stay to "complete" my "mission". I believe my wife has timed this very carefully... kudos to her...

 

The longer you stay, the more your wife is entitled to in the event of a divorce regardless of children being in college.

 

How have you come to terms with that?