In a rough place - thoughts appreciated

[pepperbird]

Where I live divorce often takes less than 30 days, start to finish. For the ex and I it took less than a week. No- we did not expect that everything would immediately gel and be smooth - far from it. But having a list of dreams to accomplish over the next few years did not seem particularly unrealistic.

 

 

Here, if your married man divorced his wife, the courts would never, ever grant him any sort of custody because he has clearly prioritized himself and his want/needs over that of his son.

 

No one "has" to be away that much. He does it because he values himself more than his son.

 

 

 

You also mentioned he wants to wait until she finishes school before bringing up divorce, and one of your reasons? So he has to pay her less alimony/spousal support. As you put it in your first post "Two months ago he told me he had made his decision and would file for divorce in June when his wife was done with school as she would have a job waiting for her and could be more independent / less alimony etc.".

 

 

Whatever you think of his wife,what does it say about him that he would treat her this way? What does it say about how much he values his son? What affects her affects him, and his big goal is to try and weasel out of alimony?

 

 

What a prince:laugh:

[finna]

I really do appreciate your concern. I have my son 50% of the time and when I do he has 100% of my focus. My ex is a great dad and my kid is happy and well-adjusted. We made sure his life was minimally disrupted due to the divorce- both my ex and I still live on the property so my kid still sleeps in his same bed, same room, etc. He loves having individual attention from mom and dad, and we still do things together as a family unit.

 

Regarding exposing the affair - that’s a “hell no” for me. For one thing, it’s MM’s responsibility to have that discussion although I doubt he ever will. For another, I have no illusions that it would improve anything for me- I suspect they would retreat deeper into a shared coexistence that would be even more miserable than what exists now.

 

As far as being manipulative in general - that is not me... when I got scared about the travel restrictions I put more pressure on MM to legitimize our relationship sooner than later and tried to be strategic about it... so yes, that was my error.

 

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I didn't realize you were a mother when I was first responding. I mentioned how MM think that their affairs have no effect on their home life. I can't tell you how many times I've read an OW explaining that her MM is basically the best father in the world who goes above and beyond in what he does for the kids but still the horrible wife doesn't appreciate him. But it's a fallacy to think that spending time, money, and energy on a secret love affair doesn't take away from your other relationships. You can't make up for what you do in the dark by taking your kid on an outing.

 

That goes for you too. You have a child's well-being to worry about. Your child has recently had his parents divorce, and while I understand that this is not the topic of this post, you come across as hardly concerned about or focused on him. You're banging your head against a wall in frustration about your MM's lack of self-awareness, but this seems to again be a situation where you are frustrated at someone else doing what you are also doing.

 

So where we stand now, he's saying he won't leave and he's pulling away, right? I at least give him points for that. Many MM would simply add more excuses or offer another far-off date as the deadline. The honorable thing is to take him at his word and to put boundaries in place. Don't communicate about work on your secret app . . . use work email. Do what you can to stop traveling together.

 

When you pull away, he may very well chase you . . . but I mean chase you to keep the affair going, not chase you to be together out in the open. You will need to be prepared to see that for what it is . . . a reflex, not a conscious choice to make you his future.

 

You've admitted to being manipulative, and I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't thought of ways to expose the affair to his wife. I'm fairly certain my husband's OW face-timed him "accidentally on purpose" when she knew we'd be together to bring things to a head. She was tired of waiting, and she believed like so many that the issue was he simply lacked the courage he needed to be honest with his wife. If you have been thinking along these lines, I hope you will be honest with yourself.

[pepperbird]

So let's review...

 

 

This is a man who is away at least 2/3 of the year. He blows into town and it's all "daddy's home" and fun and games, then he's off again.

 

This is a man who will, after his wife has likley worked her @ss of as, for all intents and purposes a single mother, to go to school and better herself, then he's going to spring "i want a divorce" on her so that he can pay less alimony?

 

 

He'd rather play with you than his own child?

 

 

 

He thinks video chatting will make up for all that lost time?

 

He lies to his wife's face over and over and over and over ad nauseum

 

 

He's got you convinced that his behvaior is because his wife is "manipulative" and "unstable"?

 

You are an intelligent woman. Why are you failing for this?

[finna]

Yes - you are very good at looking at this through a lens that portrays the situation in the most vile way possible, but I would caution that what is on the thread is not every detail of the story.

 

For what it’s worth, last year he had his family with him about a third of the time... not possible this year with wife’s school... and he was likely still working long hours but they could have dinner together, etc.

 

The alimony bit had to do with him being responsible for paying back tens of thousands of dollars if she did not finish the school program- not that he was trying to get out of supporting his son. He was very concerned that if he split before she was finished she would not be resilient enough to finish and would have no degree, no job, no confidence, etc. That was the reason I agreed to wait for him... he was trying to set her up for success and independence, even if the way he was going about it was not straightforward.

 

 

No one "has" to be away that much. He does it because he values himself more than his son.

 

You also mentioned he wants to wait until she finishes school before bringing up divorce, and one of your reasons? So he has to pay her less alimony/spousal support. As you put it in your first post "Two months ago he told me he had made his decision and would file for divorce in June when his wife was done with school as she would have a job waiting for her and could be more independent / less alimony etc.".

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[heartwhole2]

Just remember that it's easy for him to say that he will unilaterally end the marriage but he knows she will do what you have been doing when he gives reasons. She will say, "But what about this? Can't we try this?"

 

In your original post you said this:

 

Three weeks ago he called me to break things off, saying he loved me and wanted me to be in his life but he needed to focus on his family (his wife is truly mentally unstable and manipulative and he is afraid/guilty she will do something crazy as well as not be able to help care for their five year old son). At a follow up conversation he said he got stressed and scared about parts of our relationship and wanted life to be less complicated and to try to be happy with his SO in order to make his son happy and not disappoint people (he had been in unhappy situation for many years which he talked to me and another good friend a lot about before we ever got together).

 

So first he blamed it all on his wife's instability, but in a follow up conversation where I assume you picked apart his statement, he admitted that he is stressed and scared about your relationship.

 

You want to understand his reasons because you think that if you peel back enough layers of the onion, he'll find the strength to choose you. But deep down he doesn't want to choose you, so finding the right reason will not work.

 

He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.

[BaileyB]

He was very concerned that if he split before she was finished she would not be resilient enough to finish and would have no degree, no job, no confidence, etc. He was trying to set her up for success and independence, even if the way he was going about it was not straightforward.

 

That’s very kind and considerate of him... (I’m being sarcastic)

 

Asaysno, nobody is trying to portray this in the lens that makes it look the most vile... While, it may be a love story to you, the whole situation is rather vile. We have been trying to point out the red flags because you are looking at the situation through the lens of “I have found my soul mate, he is a wonderful man and a good father, our relationship is different, our relationship is destined in the stars, etc... As we say here, you have your rose coloured glasses on... and if you chose to ignore the red flags along the way, that is entirely your decision.

 

The truth is, he is perhaps a loving but absent father, who has hurt his wife in one of the worst way a man can hurt a woman, and you are waiting for the demise of his marriage so that your “happily ever after” can begin... Try as you might, you can’t dress it up to be any different than it is...

[finna]

I quite agree with most of this and he likely would as well.

 

I’ve said this a few times but he does not blame his wife for their issues- he states that the two of them together poison each other with their harsh words and actions. He takes responsibility for his piece in it, and his message to me for a long time was that he would be happier to get off that roller coaster and find someone more compatible and a relationship where he and a partner could better meet each other’s needs.

 

Since he tends to be conflict avoidant and a “fixer” I don’t know what he would actually say to her. I do know that if I had advice to give to him that I thought he would actually take, I would tell him to go take a couple of weeks off from either of us- disconnect from work and all distractions and go ask himself the questions he has been self-admittedly been avoiding for a long time: what makes him happy, what are his dreams, etc.

 

 

 

JSo first he blamed it all on his wife's instability, but in a follow up conversation where I assume you picked apart his statement, he admitted that he is stressed and scared about your relationship.

 

You want to understand his reasons because you think that if you peel back enough layers of the onion, he'll find the strength to choose you. But deep down he doesn't want to choose you, so finding the right reason will not work.

 

He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.

Edited June 4, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[finna]

Yes. The reality check is the large reason why I’m here. However, I also have to make sure the comments and advice that I am taking to heart really match my situation. I’m sure it’s not special or different from many similar things, but it’s unique in my experience. I’m owning and processing as much and as fast as I can to make the best decisions I can.

 

 

That’s very kind and considerate of him... (I’m being sarcastic)

 

Asaysno, nobody is trying to portray this in the lens that makes it look the most vile... While, it may be a love story to you, the whole situation is rather vile. We have been trying to point out the red flags because you are looking at the situation through the lens of “I have found my soul mate, he is a wonderful man and a good father, our relationship is different, our relationship is destined in the stars, etc... As we say here, you have your rose coloured glasses on... and if you chose to ignore the red flags along the way, that is entirely your decision.

 

The truth is, he is perhaps a loving but absent father, who has hurt his wife in one of the worst way a man can hurt a woman, and you are waiting for the demise of his marriage so that your “happily ever after” can begin... Try as you might, you can’t dress it up to be any different than it is...

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Hi OP, just stopping by. You sure are getting challenged and being given lots of food for thought.

 

One thing I'm adding, because it is a common trap, is focusing on how his BW is giving him the short end of the stick.

 

1) Since he's the one cheating, he is really the one giving the short end of the stick in their marriage.

 

2) You seeing him as her victim will result in your misplaced sympathy, which will keep you in rescuer mode. That is detrimental to your own recovery. I confirmed my xMM's BS isn't the nicest lady on the planet, but that doesn't justify his choice to passively agressively deceive her while he gets his extra. xMM is not a little lamb that needs our protective mothering from big bad wife.

 

3) No matter how "bad" (manipulative, etc) she may or may not be, he chooses that over leaving. He has his own reasons for this choice, most of which he probably has not shared with you.

 

To punctuate point 3, here's a short story. My mother, whom I know to be very manipulative and selfish, concocted a scheme that was super harmful to my younger brother. Basically she was jacking up his whole life for a little money. This troubled me greatly so I discussed it with my therapist. My therapist responded, "Your brother is getting what he wants out of it or her wouldn't participate." I could have argued that he could not foresee the harm her behavior was causing him, but he wouldn't have accepted it at the time anyway. He was quite cozy and complacent with my mother's arrangement despite not recognizing the long term harm then. And so it is with your MM...he's getting what he wants out of his marriage despite the costs involved. He has done his cost/benefit analysis, the result of which he determined is better to stay. He is not a victim of his own choice. He could leave anytime, but he has chosen not to. Now you choose if you want to be cast aside and marginalized -OR- stand up for yourself and refuse to accept this position. He has made it clear (through actions) that he is offering you nothing more.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[heartwhole2]

what makes him happy, what are his dreams, etc.

 

We look to people and circumstances outside of ourselves to make us happy, but I assure you that he is unhappy because he keeps perpetuating unhealthy cycles. The first order of business for both of you is to get healthy, and that cannot happen while you are making unhealthy choices.

 

Once you are a healthy person, dealing with an unhappy marriage or an unhappy job situation comes organically.

[finna]

We look to people and circumstances outside of ourselves to make us happy, but I assure you that he is unhappy because he keeps perpetuating unhealthy cycles. The first order of business for both of you is to get healthy, and that cannot happen while you are making unhealthy choices.

 

Once you are a healthy person, dealing with an unhappy marriage or an unhappy job situation comes organically.

 

I totally agree. He and I had a discussion the other night about being able to make people happy, and I’ve told him many times you can’t (he disagrees). You can only do the best you can and how they respond is up to them. Likewise how we behave/respond is inherent to our own happiness - not the people or circumstances themselves. For anyone who is interested in this concept, read Victor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” - powerful stuff.

[finna]

I don’t see him as her victim - I see them as being toxic to each other.

 

I totally agree that MM should either fully commit to his marriage including being honest about everything with his wife, or end the situation. I’m sure there are things that he is not telling me. I also think he is not going to be in a healthy place for himself until he really thinks about life and what he wants... and the answer may be right where he is... but also tells he is a coward when it comes to making decisions and being introspective... says it makes him do whatever feels easiest in terms of conflict, etc.

 

 

Hi OP, just stopping by. You sure are getting challenged and being given lots of food for thought.

 

One thing I'm adding, because it is a common trap, is focusing on how his BW is giving him the short end of the stick.

 

1) Since he's the one cheating, he is really the one giving the short end of the stick in their marriage.

 

2) You seeing him as her victim will result in your misplaced sympathy, which will keep you in rescuer mode. That is detrimental to your own recovery. I confirmed my xMM's BS isn't the nicest lady on the planet, but that doesn't justify his choice to passively agressively deceive her while he gets his extra. xMM is not a little lamb that needs our protective mothering from big bad wife.

 

3) No matter how "bad" (manipulative, etc) she may or may not be, he chooses that over leaving. He has his own reasons for this choice, most of which he probably has not shared with you.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[DKT3]

One last question then I will exit stage right on your thread...why do you see it as cowardice that he wont leave? I dont believe it is at all. I believe he is doing exactly what he wants. Really it's kinda bold. He is clearly lying to you, and you buy every ounce. He is misleading deceiving and likely gaslighting his wife and risking his marriage (one that he wants) to spend time with you. Nothing cowardly about that, not really.

 

It's all part of you believing his words (sometimes) over his actions...

 

Good luck to you,

[finna]

I don’t - those were his words, not mine.

Edited June 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[finna]

Any man that avoids conflict is not likely going to ask for a divorce. They’d rather cheat and not get caught.

 

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I don’t see him as her victim - I see them as being toxic to each other.

 

I totally agree that MM should either fully commit to his marriage including being honest about everything with his wife, or end the situation. I’m sure there are things that he is not telling me. I also think he is not going to be in a healthy place for himself until he really thinks about life and what he wants... and the answer may be right where he is... but also tells he is a coward when it comes to making decisions and being introspective... says it makes him do whatever feels easiest in terms of conflict, etc.

 

I may exaggerate to emphasize a point here and there. However, you are defending him and demonizing his wife a bit. It's totally normal for OW to do this. I did it plenty. (It was unkind.) Most importantly, my point was that you should shift your perspective from protecting/defending him to protecting yourself.

 

Also you may have noticed common adjectives across countless threads for OM include coward, passive aggressive, conflict avoidant...in many ways these are synonymous with manipulation. Those who avoid direct conflict resort to covert ways to achieve their means. Everyone has needs. Some people are afraid to directly get them met. Man's Search for Meaning...great book. Hey, you will find another man who rings all your bells more than MM. When you're ready, he will show up.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

One last question then I will exit stage right on your thread...why do you see it as cowardice that he wont leave? I dont believe it is at all. I believe he is doing exactly what he wants. Really it's kinda bold. He is clearly lying to you, and you buy every ounce. He is misleading deceiving and likely gaslighting his wife and risking his marriage (one that he wants) to spend time with you. Nothing cowardly about that, not really.

 

It's all part of you believing his words (sometimes) over his actions...

 

Good luck to you,

 

DKT3 and OP, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. It's cowardly bc the cheater won't face either BS or OW with the truth. He does boldly mastermind and maneuver, but ultimately he is too cowardly to face any consequences for his actions. My xMM told me he was a coward on more than one occasion.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

Runs for cover and leaves the messes for everyone else to clean up. (Damage control falls under 'runs for cover' category).

[PhoenixRising8]

DKT3 and OP, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. It's cowardly bc the cheater won't face either BS or OW with the truth. He does boldly mastermind and maneuver, but ultimately he is too cowardly to face any consequences for his actions. My xMM told me he was a coward on more than one occasion.

 

THIS Same with my xMM. Often said he didn't have the courage to do what he would like to do... except he had the courage to make 2 women miserable because it was easier FOR HIM. And now that I have walked away, he goes back to his life, unscathed, as though I never existed. Cowardice to do right by him - NO. Cowardice to do right by other people? ABSOLUTELY!

[finna]

DKT3 and OP, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. It's cowardly bc the cheater won't face either BS or OW with the truth. He does boldly mastermind and maneuver, but ultimately he is too cowardly to face any consequences for his actions. My xMM told me he was a coward on more than one occasion.

 

Yes there have been several occasions where I wanted him to man up and tell it straight both to me and to his wife... whatever his truth is.

 

My ex has been supportive of me throughout this situation and half jokingly asks me what would happen if MM, BS, and I sat down and talked it out like adults. I don’t think that will ever happen but in some ways it would be much easier to get everything out on the table for everyone.

[PhoenixRising8]

OP, please read my thread, if only as many pages as yours is. You will see that I did the same mental gymnastics you are now doing to rationalize something that can be explained very easily. Despite all the “plans” you made, in the cold, hard light of day, after sober second thought, he doesn’t WANT to leave. Not that he CAN’T. Too messy. Too costly. Too emotionally draining. Whatever. You are taking all the fun out of being together by actually expecting him to follow through. His first reason for not leaving sounded very plausible. His successive "reasons' will become less and less plausible and sound more like what they are - excuses. Been there, done that.

 

xMM had 2 mantras: “actions speak louder than words” (and they did, until they didn’t) and “where there is a will, there is a way” (again, there was a will until there wasn’t). By his actions, until the end, he showed he wanted to be with me, every chance he could and he was. He went so far as to tell BS he wanted to separate, then stayed because he wanted to “let her down gently, was unprepared”. As for the will, we never thought we would be able to go to a movie or spend a night together, but he made it happen, even though he had no built-in excuse like business travel. The will was there. He had the will to leave her for overnights, even though it tore her up. Even though he was rubbing an affair in her face, without actually admitting he was having an affair, even when asked directly. Similarly, he had the will to have us end, to see the “love of his life” walk away because he really didn’t HAVE THE WILL to leave his (as he put it) loveless, lifeless marriage, for whatever reason. Clearly there’s something that marriage provides (financial, extended family, friends etc.) that is of greater value than what the OW can provide. They have the will when it suits them. If it doesn’t suit them, whatever the reasons are doesn’t matter, they don’t do it because they don’t WANT to. Not because they CAN’T, because they don’t WANT to. Funny how they have the backbone to do what they want and claim lack of courage when they see they really don’t want to do what they said they did. That is exactly what your MM is showing you. He doesn’t want to leave because he has no will to leave. He has no will to leave, because he doesn’t want to leave. Too much upheaval, too many messy logistics to deal with. Easier to stay where he is and keep you on the side. I can say this with almost 100% certainty.

 

When you defend MM and believe your relationship will be different from theirs, the only person you are deluding is yourself. Towards the end, I started to see a very different person from the one I thought I knew. The open communication stopped because he was becoming uncomfortable so he did what he’s always done – retreat into himself when the going got tough. Conflict avoidant people do that because it’s easier. It doesn’t solve the problem, but it’s less discomfort that confronting the issue head on. How they behave with their BS tells you everything you need to know about what you can eventually expect when you hit a rough patch.

 

My xMM and yours have so much commonality, right down to the long work hours, the future faking, the “boo hoo, BS doesn’t understand me, doesn’t whatever … “ that I will be very surprised if one of two things doesn’t happen: 1 – some time from now, you see the truth and it ends, with a lot more pain than if it ended now or 2 – sometime down the line you’re back on this forum in the infidelity threads. You, like me, are rationalizing and so want to believe. Unlike my xMM, yours dropped you at the FIRST sign of pressure. He is sending a clear message that if you want to be with him, it is on HIS terms, and his alone. As I said, continue on your current trajectory at your own peril, as I did, discounting the advice of the kind people on this forum. Like you, I thought the same: they don’t know all the details, they don’t know us, we are different. All of this is true. What is also true is that the plot of affairs is pretty much always the same. The nuances may be different, but the basic plot is the same. Even many of the things they say. It’s like there really is a cheaters’ handbook out there. For example, I thought my xMM said something no one else had. He maintains he hasn’t slept with his BS for several years (and I mostly believe this still) but when he deferred leaving yet again, I told him I am considering dating. His response? “Well I believe in monogamy and if you start dating, there’s a good chance you wouldn’t be monogamous so I couldn’t deal with that.” Can you believe it? Someone who is cheating believes in monogamy?? Oh, the irony!! I thought mine was unique. Turns out that I’m NOT the only OW who has heard this line. Think about that …

 

To quote heartwhole2 - “He's not honest with himself or with you or with his wife. If she said, "But why do you want a divorce?" he would give such BS answers that she'd have him taking it back in about five minutes. That's who he is. He doesn't know how to address conflict or communicate. That's precisely why he's in this mess. The affair relationship isn't the answer to his problems. It's a symptom of them.” My edit - it's a symptom you will see in technicolor if you end up with him.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Yes there have been several occasions where I wanted him to man up and tell it straight both to me and to his wife... whatever his truth is.

 

My ex has been supportive of me throughout this situation and half jokingly asks me what would happen if MM, BS, and I sat down and talked it out like adults. I don’t think that will ever happen but in some ways it would be much easier to get everything out on the table for everyone.

 

It is NEVER advantageous for MM to do this...thus it will never happen. Bringing everything into the open is the last thing he wants. One of the biggest things MM get out of affairs is control. They are the only ones who know the whole truth of the situation. That puts MM in the drivers seat, cat bird position, two lives (sometimes more) who are willing to please and impress to keep their 'positions' at the end of his strings. This powerful feeling is intoxicating even for those who would otherwise be benign in their daily lives.

[BaileyB]

What do you think that type of person does if/when they do get caught?

 

If you read these boards long enough you will see that they usually beg for forgiveness from their wives. Sometimes, they throw the other woman under the bus. More often than not, they end all contact with the other woman (although this may be a temporary thing as many will initiate contact again when the coast is clear and things go back to normal at home).

[HadMeOverABarrel]

LilKitKat, I just want to clap like a happy little seal to some of your posts. Congrats on the 20/20 vision! :bunny:

[skywriter]

My thoughts on this A are, your AP is happy with his family at home and he has you his AP to enjoy while he is off on business trips. He has the best of both worlds.